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Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
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Geth doc: 932b69d8d7 | (Daniel Green)++ | 25 files
:skip-test cleanup for a bunch of X docs
 01:42
squashable6 🍕🍕🍕 First contribution by MasterDuke17++! ♥
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Xliff Anyone still around... 02:22
.oO( God, I hope not... it's the weekend! )
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MasterDuke i shouldn't be here much longer, the clocks change tonight, but the baby doesn't know about that... 02:28
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Geth doc: ddbea8cc15 | (Daniel Green)++ | 39 files
:skip-test cleanup for the rest of the Types
 02:43
Xliff MasterDuke: When zef installs a module, it precompiles everything before testing and installation, correct? 02:45
Is there a way to insert a custom precompilation script and have zef install the precompiled moarvm code? I have a particularly large module, and I'd like to provide the user with some feedback during the build process. 02:46
MasterDuke i think so, but not 100% sure
^^^ that was to your first question
and i have no idea about the second 02:47
Xliff OK. Who would know the details? 02:50
MasterDuke ugexe or nine most likely 02:52
Xliff OK, thanks!
Enjoy the weekend! 02:53
BTW - My project takes almost 20 minutes to compile o_O
MasterDuke !!! 02:54
have you tried a --profile-compile ? 02:55
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Xliff Not yet. I should, shouldn't I? 02:56
I assume such would be helpful?
MasterDuke you'll probably have to use the sql output
ugexe if you know where to put the precompiled files then you could do it with e.g. Build.pm i suppose
MasterDuke might be
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Xliff And that is 15m wall-clock on a 10-core VM 02:56
ugexe but you'd want to generate those precomp files with Compunit::Repository::Staging probably 02:57
Xliff ugexe: Well the build script I am using just does perl --stagestats -Ilib -e 'use <module>' in a predefined order, which definitely adds time due to successive executions of perl6. 02:58
ugexe: What does Compunit::Repository::Staging do? Are there any writeups on using it?
ugexe i take it you've figured out the optimal build order?
Xliff Yes.
ugexe that is a trick people can do with their meta data provides section to improve install speed 02:59
Xliff OH! You put the optimal build order in provides?
I will have to fix my script. ;)
MasterDuke Xliff: actually, i bet the --profile-compile will die because of ram use, unless you're on a machine with 128gb+ 03:00
Xliff That will bring down the compile time a little.
MasterDuke: Only 32G here.
And the VM uses MUCH less. I can dual boot into Linux to get as much as I can tho.
ugexe CUR::Staging creates stuff that can be relocated
Xliff ugexe++
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ugexe it uses the same api as CUR::Installation, and it was some of the packagers use for perl6 modules 03:03
and its used by some of the^
Xliff Ooh! 03:04
App-wide packaging? 03:05
:)
ugexe you could use CURI for that as well yes 03:07
the plugin repo pattern 03:08
add "pattern" after anything to legitimize it
Xliff The only issue would be to get the core modules into that as well.
ugexe: So.... no docs? :( 03:09
I guess I could dissect zef and see what's going on.
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ugexe No. the "gist" of it would be something like CUR::Staging.new(prefix => "...").install($dist); mv $prefix /home/foo/bar/site 03:11
with CURI you cannot do the mv $prefix ... step 03:12
Xliff Ah.
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SmokeMachine Ulti: thanks for trying Red! :) I’m still reading the backlog, but what did you think about it? 04:12
Ulti: it works on Mac... I develop Red on a Mac machine... 04:16
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buggable New CPAN upload: Math-Factorial-Operator-0.1.1.tar.gz by RIBNOTTER modules.perl6.org/dist/Math::Factor...:RIBNOTTER 04:51
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Xliff Does perl6 --stagestats still go to STDOUT? 05:39
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AlexDaniel squashable6: stats 07:11
squashable6 AlexDaniel, I cannot recognize this command. See wiki for some examples: github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Squashable
AlexDaniel squashable6: status
squashable6 AlexDaniel, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event in ≈4 hours. See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
AlexDaniel, Log and stats: gist.github.com/44d13f70e9d8c9f29f...b3307a72e7
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Geth doc: 769d6d9239 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Cool.pod6
Adds definition + examples closes #2342
 07:41
doc: 08983afbf4 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 68 files
Merging changes.
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Cool
doc: 3252e9e2eb | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Cool.pod6
Adds the missing definition, closes #2342
squashable6 🍕 JJ++ closed issue “comb definition (and pro…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2342
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squashable6 🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “explain public attributes in /typesystem”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1572#i...-435652567 08:55
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Geth doc: a59aafc161 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/Cool.pod6
Changes definitions and reflows
 09:02
doc: 4831e9adae | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Fixes definitions and adds examples
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Cool
doc: 40cd8da5d5 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/typesystem.pod6
Minor grammar and reflow
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/typesystem
doc: 9ee803b081 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 2 files
Changed the "defined as"

Since it's not actually defined that way. Also clarified from comments in the description. Closes #1565		 09:10
squashable6 🍕 JJ++ closed issue “puzzle in class Capture'…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1565
Xliff Moar build error from latest GIT --> paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/fcjh...l0NNLnDivA 09:15
jmerelo++ # Burning the midnight oil.... at least from my standpoint.
jmerelo Xliff: almost mid-morning here, 10:16 in sunny Granada, Spain. 09:16
Xliff Oooo.. 09:17
Wish I was there.
jmerelo Xliff: you'll be very welcome :-)
Xliff Way past the witching hour in Washington, DC
Oh. Don't tempt me, d00d! I will couch-surf! :)
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jmerelo Xliff: :-) Still on time to squash some bug in the squashathon :-) 09:21
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squashable6 🍕 TisonKun++ wrote a comment on “puzzle in class Capture'…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1565#i...-435654520 09:27
🍕🍕🍕 First contribution by TisonKun++! ♥
🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “puzzle in class Capture'…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1565#i...-435654790 09:31
🍕 JJ++ opened issue “Raku in the documentation”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2443 09:33
🍕 JJ++ labeled issue “Raku in the documentation” (meta): github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2443
🍕 JJ++ edited issue “Raku in the documentation”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2443 09:34
Ulti SmokeMachine: yeah its not so much about it working, its about it being installable via zef without headache 09:38
SmokeMachine: there is a blocking bug in HEAD for me with Red around circular dependencies I put in an isssue 09:39
I've also found perhaps the only tool in existence that tries to do trans os/distro package searches github.com/whohas/whohas its a bit out of date so might pinch some of the major ideas and port to Perl 6 09:40
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Xliff Util: Do you know anything about roles? 09:56
squashable6 🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “$COLON$COLON links are busted”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1382#i...-435656250
Xliff I might need your and lizmat's help to solve an issue.
Also, current rakudo on git does not seem buildable. 09:57
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squashable6 🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “Lots of broken links, in…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/561#is...-435656303 09:57
🍕 JJ++ labeled issue “$*REPO and CompUnit::Rep…” (big): github.com/perl6/doc/issues/502 09:58
🍕 TisonKun++ wrote a comment on “puzzle in class Capture'…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1565#i...-435656441 09:59
🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “puzzle in class Capture'…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1565#i...-435656585 10:02
🍕 JJ++ wrote a comment on “Avoid repetitions in documentation”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1924#i...-435656684 10:04
Geth doc: JJ self-unassigned Document < … > lists on the regex page github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1857
7ad5a087b9 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6
jmerelo squashable6: status 10:06
squashable6 jmerelo, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event in ≈1 hour. See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
jmerelo, Log and stats: gist.github.com/7c21790aa3a1333144...233ac7fe85
jmerelo goes AFK. Do stuff!
SmokeMachine Ulti: strange... it was working to me... did you get the error only `use`ing Red? 10:10
Ulti: I’ll take a look at this asap 10:11
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synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/operators
Geth doc: a37af0a0ab | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6
Adds ;=

Also indexes it. Closes #1855		 10:49
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/operators
squashable6 🍕 JJ++ closed issue “Document %a = %a, %b and…”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/1855
El_Che Ulti: The cpan/zef/pip/gem deployment model is an dead end in my eyes. We need to be able to provide self contained applications like Go or Java. It may happen if Rakudo becomes relocatable. 10:50
specially my experiences with gems are bad 10:51
jmerelo El_Che: it's also the model of JS. And, anyway, things like Carton or Fatpack ease the difficulty of deploying.
El_Che: that does not mean that it would be great to have something like .jar for the MoarVM or be able to compile Raku to .jar for the JVM. But I don't think it's so bad as a dead end 10:52
El_Che wel, it needs the runtime as well 10:53
here is my app, run it, that's it
Go get away with their statically compiled programs buy avoicing C libs as much as possible 10:54
jmerelo squashable6: status 10:56
squashable6 jmerelo, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event in ≈1 hour. See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
jmerelo, Log and stats: gist.github.com/28777c19ef8818ad02...6af128e171
El_Che "Here is my small app. In order to run it, you need to install a big runtime, get a C compiler and the toolchain, an use a third party program to install dozens of other libs (which require other stuff I don't really know about" 10:57
That's what we want to avoid in the far future
SmokeMachine Ulti: this `perl6 -Ilib -MRed -e ''` doesn't give me any error... 10:59
neither this: perl6 examples/blog/index.p6 11:00
neither this: `perl6 examples/cqrs/index.p6`
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Geth doc: 8d9b988362 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 3 files
Moves op declaration to new page closes #2162
 11:01
squashable6 🍕 JJ++ closed issue “Move out the section on …”: github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2162
pmurias jmerelo: Aren't say desktop user js applications deployed via installers etc. instead of npm? 11:04
jmerelo pmurias: like electron stuff and some such? I guess they are. They probably bundle node.js + all libraries. 11:05
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jmerelo squashable6: status 11:15
squashable6 jmerelo, 🍕🍕 SQUASHathon is in progress! The end of the event is in 44 minutes. See github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/Mont...Squash-Day
jmerelo, Log and stats: gist.github.com/315b50c062734ec13b...9353534fc1
jmerelo Anyway. I'm done for the day.
If you still have the time and the will, go ahead. 44 minutes are enough for a couple of contributions.
SmokeMachine could someone help me please? Ulti opened this issue (github.com/FCO/Red/issues/65). But Im trying to reproduce but I can't... can someone try it please? 11:17
jmerelo SmokeMachine:
OK
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: thanks! 11:22
jmerelo SmokeMachine: no problem :-) I get the same error here, though.
SmokeMachine really?! 11:23
running the tests? 11:24
jmerelo SmokeMachine: it's in the issue. I run them with zef test .
SmokeMachine yes... running the test I got it... :( 11:25
how did it passed on travis? 11:26
thanks! ill try to fix that!
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SmokeMachine if I run each test file it works... :( 11:28
with `prove -e 'perl6 -Ilib' t/` it works 11:30
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SmokeMachine that's why travis worked 11:30
why zef isn't working?!
Ok, precompile... 11:35
jmerelo Right. 11:37
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Geth doc: 900a168a44 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/operators.pod6
Fixes formatting
 11:40
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/operators
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: could you try it again, please? 11:52
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SmokeMachine for me its working now... 11:53
jmerelo SmokeMachine: OK
Geth doc: 001f65ca03 | (Zoffix Znet)++ | doc/Type/Proc/Async.pod6
[v6.d REVIEW] Document Proc::Async.command/.path/.args changes

  .path/.args were never part of any spec, but we'll treat them as
if they were and are deprecated as of 6.d, with .command replacing them
PoV: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/45bbc9465c Propspec: github.com/perl6/roast/commit/51639a8efe Closes github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2444 R#2444		 11:56
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Proc::Async
synopsebot R#2444 [closed]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2444 [6.d review][consistency] Inconsistency: Proc.command vs Proc::Async.path + .args
jmerelo SmokeMachine: problem now is that DBIish does not install... 11:57
SmokeMachine if you manually install DBIish? 11:58
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jmerelo SmokeMachine: That's what I'm trying to do 11:58
SmokeMachine :) thanks
jmerelo SmokeMachine: though, DBIish failing, not good... 11:59
SmokeMachine: still error: "Method 'translate' must be implemented by Red::Driver::Mock because it is required by roles: Red::Driver" 12:00
SmokeMachine really?! on test?
jmerelo SmokeMachine: will open an issue
SmokeMachine hum?! what's your raku version? 12:01
jmerelo: ^^
jmerelo SmokeMachine: github.com/FCO/Red/issues/67 12:02
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: I think its working with this: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/fd...6eea7ca92f 12:05
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jmerelo SmokeMachine: compiling 2018.10 right now... 12:05
SmokeMachine jmerelo: Im removing the dependency of that commit... 12:06
jmerelo: done 12:09
jmerelo SmokeMachine: installing modules for 2018.10 now... 12:10
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SmokeMachine (sorry, Ill have to run afk... I have to take my daughter to her ginástica presentation...) 12:12
jmerelo SmokeMachine: have fun!
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: but please, let me know if that worked! 12:13
jmerelo SmokeMachine: it worked with 2018.10
SmokeMachine great! thanks!
jmerelo: thank you very much!
jmerelo SmokeMachine: no problem, my pleasure. You go now!!! 12:14
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Altreus I'm trying to prevent concurrent calls to a method from spawning concurrent HTTP requests by setting a Promise on the object and then unsetting it in the handler: $!p = start { ... $!p = Promise }; 13:17
Is this terrible?
jmerelo Altreus: you're assigning a value to the same variable in the definition of the variable? 13:18
Altreus there's blocking code in the ... 13:19
oh, the start{} returns somemthing else
I'll post the real example
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jmerelo Altreus: and it's assigned to $!p 13:19
Zoffix Altreus: BTW, are you aware of OO::Monitors? It does the whole "one method call at a time across threads" thing
eco: OO::Monitors
buggable Zoffix, OO::Monitors 'Objects with mutual exclusion and condition variables': modules.perl6.org/dist/OO::Monitors...orthington
Altreus hmm that might be good 13:20
here's the method I was asking about, for possibly academic reasons 13:22
github.com/shuppet/p6-api-discord/...88670daa92
IIUC, I could create a monitor object instead of a promise and ask that to do the work 13:27
the synopsis on that github project doesn't really tell me how to use it, mind you 13:28
Those methods in that monitor don't appear to be actually demonstrating the concept
Zoffix Altreus: you just `use OO::Monitors` and declare your class with `monitor` instead of `class` keyword 13:29
The magic happens automatically
But I was meaning you use a monitor object instead of a thing where you're trying to use a promise to mark something 13:31
Nothing needs to be marked if you are already guaaranteed methods are run one at a time across threads
(I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the problem you're trying to solve, mind you)
Altreus I may be misunderstanding but it looks like the calls to the monitor will run eventually, just never concurrently 13:34
I want to prevent them from running at all if any is in progress
since it would be redundant to do so 13:35
I wonder whether that's a use case monitors support but there's no example of how
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Altreus the other thing I want to do is, if the method is already in progress, I want to actually return the promise that's already underway 13:36
pmurias .tell jmerelo yep, electronjs.org/docs/tutorial/appli...stribution 13:37
yoleaux pmurias: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
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Altreus the way it works is, if I do $channel.fetch-messages(50), it will fetch 50 new messages based on the ID of the last message we have. If I do it again, we don't have a new ID to start from yet, so I can either a) chain off the existing promise and do 50 more, or b) return the same 50 when we have them 13:38
Zoffix Altreus: ah yeah, then monitors isn't the right thing. Monitors is the "run eventually", as you said.
Altreus I just don't like the way I unset the promise once it's kept
I guess I can use type a 13:39
that way I can just do a then on a promise that may already have been kept
Actually a) is really good because if you do fetch-messages(50) then fetch-messages(10) you end up with one promise that resolves to 50 new messages, and a second one that resolves to 60 new messages 13:41
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Altreus ok good thinking me 13:41
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Altreus module search is broken :( 14:01
Geth doc: 0f2c5c3eef | thundergnat++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/traps.pod6
Add trap: prefix minus / method op precedence
 14:07
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/traps
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Geth doc: stmuk++ created pull request #2444:
refer to Raku in FAQ		 14:20
mu: ash++ created pull request #34:
Sorry I am not writing about Raku
mu: cc27dd33b6 | (Andrew Shitov)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | misc/perl6advent-2018/schedule
Update schedule
 14:21
mu: fc816dac2a | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | misc/perl6advent-2018/schedule
Merge pull request #34 from ash/patch-2

Sorry I am not writing about Raku
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Zoffix Can anyone successfully access marketing.perl6.org/ ? I'm getting "The owner of marketing.perl6.org has configured their website improperly." 14:32
NET::ERR_CERT_DATE_INVALID
crap
geekosaur its security certificate expired yesterday 14:33
(quoting from chrome's "advanced" info)
Zoffix ssh's to update
moritz doens't interfere :) 14:34
Zoffix moritz: oh wait!
moritz: I didn't realize you were here :)
moritz: do you have time to interfere? It wass supposed get updated automatically didn't it?
I see the docs use marketing.perl6.org as example; probably might need to be fixed too github.com/perl6/infrastructure-do...#ssl-certs 14:35
Geth perl6.org: stmuk++ created pull request #120:
DO NOT MERGE WITHOUT DISCUSSION		 14:36
doc: 59898e705a | (Steve Mynott)++ | doc/Language/faq.pod6
refer to Raku in FAQ
 14:38
doc: d9af44a828 | (Steve Mynott)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/faq.pod6
Merge pull request #2444 from stmuk/master

refer to Raku in FAQ
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/faq
moritz Zoffix: I can take a look
somehow it doesn't seem to be part of the normal cert renewal 14:39
... and I seem to have managed to break all of the SSL on *.perl6.org :( 14:46
fuuuuuuuck
Zoffix :} 14:48
moritz I probably need to disable all SSL sites for a short while, get new certs, and then re-enable them again 14:49
ok, new cert generated 14:54
Zoffix moritz++
moritz and marketing.perl6.org now has a valid cert as well 14:55
Zoffix Thanks.
moritz Zoffix: if I cobble together a Perl 6 coding contest, would you design a small website for it? 14:56
Zoffix moritz: just run it on wordpress? 14:57
moritz: I think it's a "no" from me in the near future. I want to take a bit of a break after 6.d release. 14:58
moritz Zoffix: ok, understandable 15:00
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El_Che is @perlcon trolling? 15:31
twitter.com/perlcon/status/1059105435754602496 15:32
ugexe "i think we should make a real perl 6 now that they've renamed to rakui" are they trolling? "is Perl 6 really, officially now Raku?" or them? 15:33
timotimo wasn't the renaming thing partially about getting number 6 free for perl5 to advance? 15:35
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timotimo at least there were people who wanted that 15:35
since we're keeping Perl 6 as the "legal name", that won't work
Guest97428 No it's not trolling. It is a really interesting topic to discuss. Like it was with Perl 7 a few years ago
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El_Che The Perl 5 and 6 tshirts were kind of painful at YAPC 2012 15:36
andrewshitov sorry it was me not logged in properly.
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araraloren rakudo.org is down ? 15:39
andrewshitov twitter.com/perlcon/status/1059105845974364160 is the correct link to the post El_Che mentioned
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Zoffix moritz: ping. Looks like rakudo.org now gives the default Apache page. Any idea how to fix that? 15:42
moritz Zoffix: I'll take a look
Zoffix Thanks. 15:44
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moritz Zoffix: how is rakudo.org supposed to work? is it an application server? 15:48
Zoffix moritz: there's a mojolicious app running from `rakudo` user I believe. It listens to some port (3333, maybe) and apache reverse proxies to it 15:49
andrewshitov: there's not much to discuss—we've been discussing for a year and yesterday was a final resolution to that discussion. I don't see what throwing tantrums on Perl 6 Advent project or using a Perl Conference twitter account to incite animosity in the community is going to accomplish. If you like "Perl 6" as a name, use it. It's not going away.
moritz Zoffix: ah, now I think I know what happened
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Zoffix andrewshitov: people have been already using a multitude of language aliases, now they can use a single consistent one. That's literally all that's changing and your response doesn't feel proportionate to me. 15:51
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andrewshitov Zoffix: You can tell all that from the conference state. You were officially invited. 15:51
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andrewshitov *stage 15:52
moritz Zoffix: rakudo.org works again
Zoffix \o/
moritz++
andrewshitov: why can't someone who's attending that conference say that? 15:53
There's nothing special about me. I'm just a bloke.
moritz (I had installed certbot, found that it didn't work out of the box; apt-get remove --purge'd it; that blew the certificate + key files
Zoffix araraloren: ^ it works now
moritz then I had to disable all HTTPS sites for apache to start again 15:54
and the non-SSL version of rakudo.org didn't contain the reverse proxy info
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moritz 10k ways you can screw up as a hobby sysadmin, day 835 15:56
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andrewshitov Zoffix: "people have been already using a multitude of language aliases" is a statement similar to "on behalf of community". Who's using aliases? 16:00
El_Che I do
I use Rakudo if I want to avoid rolling eyes 16:01
andrewshitov El_Che: are you switching to Raku now?
El_Che I kind of switched to rakudo before the raku selection 16:02
"#!/usr/bin/env rakudo" is mostly on the shebang for perl6
raku will do
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El_Che andrewshitov: The phrasing of the tweet didn't sound to me as an announcement or a discussion, but more tongue-in-cheek 16:04
Juerd I like the name, but there are two annoying technicalities: it looks like 'rake' (Ruby's make), and it makes tab completing rakudo harder. On the other hand, it's basically a switch from tab to space to get the same result :)
Zoffix andrewalker: Damian Conway was asked not to mention "Perl 6" name during his talk, and he used "Albus". I was using "Rakudo" before it was decided the final decision were going to be made on 6.d release.
andrewshitov: 16:05
araraloren Zoffix okay, thanks :) 16:06
Zoffix andrewshitov: a user saying the name was preventing them from pushing Raku to production: www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/9t...u/e90mvye/ 16:07
andrewshitov: and here's the rest of my references for all the naming dicussions. I'm sure you'll find a few more similar instances: temp.perl6.party/NAMING.txt 16:08
uzl It's quite nice that the alias has been consolidated. Instead of people using 'Albus', "that language that is not Perl 5 but is Perl", or something else, people now has a common and alternate choice.
Zoffix andrewshitov: and all these people can now use "Raku". You were not affected by those issues and like "Perl 6", well, that's the whole point of a second name instead of a full rename: you can still use "Perl 6" if you want to 16:09
uzl I think that's what people miss. It's just an alias; if you feel fine using "Perl 6", use it. Else you can use "Raku". 16:11
Juerd What's the correct pronunciation for "raku"? Which syllable is stressed?
moritz in my mind, it's ra-koo, with stress on the first syllable
Zoffix I pronounce it like the robot pronouncing French version here: translate.google.ca/#en/fr/Raku 16:12
Or I guess the Japanese one is the proper way: translate.google.ca/#en/ja/Raku 16:13
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andrewshitov Zoffix: which Damian's talk do you mean? 16:14
uzl I tend to pronounce it like this: translate.google.ca/#auto/ja/Raku
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Zoffix andrewshitov: at CERN in Geneva 16:16
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Juerd andrewshitov: It's referenced here: mappingthejourney.com/single-post/...-language/ 16:17
Zoffix andrewshitov: ''' I was giving a lecture at CERN in Geneva and I said “Well I really want to come and talk to about Perl 6” and they “Well that’s fine but if we put the name Perl in the title of the talk then I’m not going to get anyone to come along”, so I said “Fine. I’ll go and talk about this theoretical language and we called it Albus”'''
mappingthejourney.com/single-post/...-language/
Zoffix forces self to leave to finalize 6.d release brochure :) 16:18
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ugexe i wish we'd stop giving John Doe's opinion, who has no known place of employment, on how he cant "sneak" perl 6 into production any weight. they are already trying to "sneak" something in -- this isn't the "production" enviroment anyone is looking for 16:39
i wish people would explain what "production environment" we are losing out on 16:40
El_Che ugexe: a modern production environment nowadays is often composed of microservices on containers, where more freedom is possible for the choice of languageS 16:41
ugexe yes i know what it is 16:43
El_Che so, why do you dismiss it?
ugexe i don't. i want to know what these production environments are that have dismissed perl6 by name 16:44
El_Che I have been to a few
ugexe because depending on what these environments are, i could probably care less
and they are? 16:45
El_Che yeah, there for the alias is not for you, and you can happily brand those project as Perl 6 instead of Raku
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El_Che projects? Mostly in the devops space. Parts of CI, CD and the like 16:46
ugexe what companies. users. size. these are what i am interested in when i hear production environment
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ugexe and i wasn't asking specifically about the alias. i was asking for people saying they cannot use perl6 in production because of the name to give more information 16:47
El_Che where I work now (and where I use "rakudo" to build java base images) we have a 25k staff and around 150k students.
ugexe so by using the raku alias you will have opened the avenue to 25k staff and 150k students that was unavailable with the name perl6? 16:49
El_Che lol, no 16:50
By using the "rakudo" alias (it predates raku) I run Perl 6 code on our CI infranstructure without having to see rolling eyes and sighs 16:51
ugexe eye rolling and sighing is 75% of the production work i do
El_Che (I run way more Go code on those projects, but It's good to use some Perl 6 as well)
sure, the battle of eye rolling can be a worthy fight, but most people don't bother 16:52
so in this case it would have simply meant that the perl6 code would have been go 16:53
that's all
so, again, there is no need to antagonize between people that want to use the Perl 6 or the Raku name 16:56
everyone wants to use more Perl 6
ugexe it depends on how you view it. i see this as a possible turning point as the start of perl6 funding in general. so i find this whole thing actively harmful 16:57
loss of funding
jmerelo ugexe: sorry, I am not following you. 16:58
yoleaux 13:37Z <pmurias> jmerelo: yep, electronjs.org/docs/tutorial/appli...stribution
El_Che ugexe: what funding would be lost with an alias?
jmerelo ugexe: ^^^ that is what I don't understand.
El_Che (I don't even see what funding would be lost even with a full renaming, but that's an other discussion) 16:59
ugexe nothing is immediately lost. it is the path that is being set -- that of a division of perl and perl6. that includes everything that comes with it
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ugexe in the more immediate -- sure looks like our main private source of funding is backing off. at least with physical marketing items, but they fund lots more than that. 16:59
jmerelo ugexe: the path has been set by giving Perl 6 an alias? Perl is perl... 17:00
ugexe "i think we should make a real perl 6 now that they've renamed to rakui" are they trolling? "is Perl 6 really, officially now Raku?" or them?
^ this is the start of it
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ugexe that is from perl people 17:01
its been 2 days
the division will grow
jmerelo ugexe: The thing is it's been coming for a long time. The naming debate has been there for long. Then, a name is just a name, it's an alias. And finally, it's TimToady who took that decision. 17:02
El_Che We have been pushing a clusterfuck of a problem under the carpet, an alias will not fix that nor make it worse
ugexe not everyone agrees it has been coming for a long time. i would say many of us got tired of debating it a long time ago, so when it got brought up for the 19th time one side was not interested
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jmerelo ugexe: there are blog posts from at least years ago. The reddit discussion is one year old. 17:03
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El_Che ugexe: sure, I get that. But even if you have consensus on the Perl 6 (there isn't) is does not mean the problem goes away as the other party feels like the one paying the price. 17:04
ugexe so what
jmerelo El_Che: I kinda agree with you here, but I'm not sure I would agree in what's "the problem"
El_Che it's part of the problem
ugexe i dont care that the same couple people kept pushing the same point for years. other people pushed the opposite point years earlier -- they just didn't want to continue discussing it for the 19th time
El_Che the alias works in the other direction: diassociate from perl 5 in order not to pay for its reputation in some places 17:05
jmerelo Still
ugexe i don't want to disassociate with perl5. that is the opposite of what i want
lizmat El_Che: it is my profound belief that TimToady's decision is going to be a source of division for years to come
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El_Che ugexe: the fact that there have been "19" discussions over the years, means that there is a problem there that until it's not fixed it will keep reapearing 17:06
jmerelo lizmat: we don't need another source of division...
El_Che true, some people are just trolls and there is bad blood here and there
but many people care about the Perl community as a whole
and my point being is that an alias is not the same as the renaming 17:07
jmerelo lizmat: and I deeply respect that belief, but really, I'm a bit lost here. Or very lost.
lizmat jmerelo: I share your feeling
El_Che lizmat: don't you think that the division wasn't already there?
jmerelo We knew an "alias" or "stage name" was coming.
ugexe we only know what the loudest person keeps yelling 17:08
lizmat I think the division was healing, by showing people that Perl 6 is getting closer to Perl 5 performance
El_Che lizmat: I see your point, but I don't agree there (from a meta level)
jmerelo Lots of people have been using "6p" or other aliases... The thing now is that we have an official one.
lizmat now we have the situation: it's got a new name, why not 10 years ago? why not at Christmas 2015? 17:09
and I can't blame them
El_Che lizmat: you see it as Perl 6 being good enough to replace Perl 5 IRL, many people resent that
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jmerelo OTOH, I don't appreciate people deleting comments from issues in perl6/doc 17:09
ugexe its the top voted comment in a previous language naming reddit thread 17:10
www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/9m...uage_name/
lizmat El_Che: and they don't resent Perl 5 being replaced by Python / Go / Haskell / whatever ???
El_Che lizmat: I see how an alias can conflict with the direction you want to go, though
Zoffix lizmat: weren't you eaten alive for proposing that Perl 6 is the next Perl (the community letter thing)?
lizmat: didn't a coredev cancel a TPF grant because of harasement from the Perl 5 side? 17:11
jmerelo Zoffix: that's hardly lizmat's proposal. Larry did that when it named it Perl 6, as in Perl 5++
lizmat Zoffix: so? the wolves are howling, the caravan moves on
Zoffix The first healing of the division I've seen since 2015 is sri posting a positive thing about Perl 6 this morning instead of the usual stuff
ugexe quit basing the general opinion on the people who yell the most
jmerelo Who's sri? 17:12
El_Che mojo
Zoffix lizmat: so which part is the division and which part is just the wolves howling?
lizmat the wolves howling was about being eaten alive
El_Che some howlers would rather move to whatever lang before using Perl 6
those are not our targets 17:13
jmerelo Let me see if I understand what's going on here. Perl 6 is getting a new alias. It's not substituting the real name starting now, is that correct? Perl 6 is still perl 6, only we get to call it by some other name if we so want, is that correct?
ugexe maybe that is all you see if you do not go to many perl conferences / events. i've seen many things, like working with CPAN guys to get perl6 modules there
lizmat the division is caused by the fact that anybody not like Perl 6 can now "legitimately" say it's been renamed
El_Che jmerelo: that's how I understand it, yes
jmerelo lizmat: it's not been renamed. It's been plus-named. 17:14
Zoffix lizmat: what gives them that legitimacy?
jmerelo lizmat: or aka-named.
El_Che lizmat: so what?
lizmat Zoffix: how are we going call Diwali ? Perl 6.d or Raku 6.d ?
ugexe people have already stated they wish this would lead to a complete rename, so lets drop the "its only an alias" things
El_Che lizmat: they would say perl6 killed perl 5 and that's why they moved to JS. So what?
Zoffix lizmat: Raku Perl 6
ugexe we are past discussing if its an alias, rename, or dream
Zoffix lizmat: I see people who hate Perl 6 now saying it's called Raku instead of saying it's a failed piece of shit that's dead
lizmat "Raku" "Raku Perl 6" "Perl 6" "Rakudo Perl 6" take your pick ??? 17:15
ugexe based on a few social media outlets
this is what we are basing everything on
Zoffix ugexe: so maybe you should stop then?
El_Che anyway, the core of the aliasing is *not* helping Perl 5, but to diasociate Perl 6 from the Perl 5 reputation in some places.
so it's really not about Perl 5 people compaling or cheering 17:16
lizmat El_Che: that was the intent: but not the result
ugexe ^
lizmat the result will be that more people will want Perl 6 to be something else so that "Perl 5" can "live"
jmerelo Zoffix: you mean this? twitter.com/kraih/status/1059095302605598720
Zoffix jkramer: yes
El_Che lizmat, ugexe: you're are been the most negative about it so far
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Zoffix jmerelo: I mean, yes 17:17
ugexe yes, because as i said i feel this is actively harmful
lizmat another example of what I mean: twitter.com/joelaberger/status/105...7294043136
ugexe so it is affecting my livelyhood
El_Che known Perl 6 detractors have been very constrained
Is that it? "A lovely sentiment for starting out a new language!" 17:18
jmerelo lizmat: that's simply wrong. It's not a new language.
El_Che it's better than they used to say
Zoffix lizmat: I have that person blocked due to the amount of Perl 6 hatred they spewed in the past. Now they're tweeting "long live #Raku".
I'm sorry, I'm failing to see the Doom here.
El_Che and don't forget, the 2 lang narrative was/is the official discourse about p5/p6
ugexe because the "intent" of an alias is obviously not the result
jmerelo Zoffix: you're aware that hate does not go away so easily, right? They probably still hate it.
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lizmat Zoffix: you're exactly proving my point 17:19
El_Che I am pretty sure they still hate it, but if the tweet is illustrative, it's pretty civilised
Zoffix lizmat: I may have missed it then. What was the point?
lizmat the point being that people who want Perl6 6 to stop existing because it is in the way of Perl 5, are using the alias as a pretext for saying that "Perl 6" should be removed from the "Perl" universe 17:20
El_Che lizmat: they have been saying that for year (decades?), so what? 17:21
s
ugexe then why alias at all? so what right? 17:22
El_Che the alias is not for people that use perl 5
ugexe maybe we should explicitly state that
El_Che is an alias for people that roll their eyes when they hear Perl
jmerelo lizmat: you have a point, but same as people will not stop hating because Perl 6 got a new alias, it's not going to be removed from the Perl universe for that reason...
El_Che out of the echo chamber
lizmat El_Che: but it will be *USED* by people that use Perl 5
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lizmat once something has gotten another name, it is easier to get rid of 17:23
El_Che lizmat: sure. People will always find a stick to hit p6 if they want to.
Zoffix lizmat: but if Raku were to be no longer in the way of Perl 5, what reason would those people want for Raku to stop existing? 17:24
lizmat and Larry has just given them another one
Kaiepi is raku the secondary name for perl 6 or just the name of the executable?
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El_Che lizmat: many p5 feel constrained because if p6, unable to move forward 17:24
ugexe so now the alias is due to how p5 people feel? 17:25
El_Che lizmat: it would be ironic if p6 would find itself in the same situation because of p5?
jmerelo lizmat: Really, I appreciate your concern, and there's a lot I miss here. But I don't really see anyone shushing anyone else mentioning "Perl 6", or rejecting talk proposal in PerlCons because "Perl 6" is mentioned instead of Raku.
El_Che no, I am saying, who care what they think about it, it's not for them
ugexe its been 2 days. obviously you havent seen anything explicit yet
lizmat El_Che: as I've said before, I believe that the way forward for Perl 5 (AS A PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE) is not with the p5p executor
ugexe its the writing on the wall 17:26
jmerelo I think that if we don't build trenches around names, people will just not start fighting from one to the other...
Zoffix I think that's the side that's missing from this discussion: all the issues with the "Perl 6" name. The premise the very first blog post on this re-ignition of the name thing started with saying that we tried the "Perl 6" name for a year and a half and it's not working out. You can't comment on some harmful effect of the alias without having the context of problems with "Perl 6" name to go with it. I'll gladly
swallow a disgusting pill if that means I can get rid of cancer.
El_Che lizmat: yes, I know, but I don't think many people share that strategy (and many resent it)
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jmerelo lizmat: but that's still the case. An alias is not going to change that. 17:26
ugexe its not going to change that yes. so bringing it up as a point towards aliasing is not valid 17:27
Zoffix It's not towards, it's backwards.
The time to bring up points towards was in the past ~18 months.
Instead of simply assuming that nothing will happen. 17:28
ugexe stop with the patronizing bullshit. people brought up points and it was very obviously not a clear one-sided issue
jmerelo Zoffix: still, the name is not going away. Perl 6 is still Perl 6. We might use Raku in some contexts, but concerns will still exist if we say "Perl 6... er... Raku"
Zoffix ugexe: you just said above that you ignored it because it was for the 19th time. 17:29
You're just not happy that things aren't exactly as you want them to be, yet you're perfectly happy if things aren't exactly as other people want to be.
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ugexe you sound like donald trump 17:30
El_Che let's not get there 17:31
jmerelo let's really not.
El_Che let's assume everyone here is discussing in good faith
ribasushi_ my 2c: 17:32
El_Che we're not on twitter here :)
ribasushi_ cent #1: ugexe you know better than most that I, and possibly soon more coworkers, recently lost my job *in large part* because the perl brand is irrevocably damaged "on all sides",in large part by precisely this type of "logical successor" bickering
cent #2: my main side project for the past 1.5 years is to stand up an alternative CPAN mirror network, that is properly segregated from what is being worked on here. Raku does not play either way into this plan - Larry's "announcement" at a past FOSDEM + the p5p leaderhsop change is what is driving this 17:33
ugexe i don't agree it has to do with perl itself. if it was then we wouldn't be hiring ~9 more perl devs 17:34
El_Che ribasushi_: can you elaborate on cent 2? A cpan fork? Why? 17:35
jmerelo ribasushi_: "from what is being worked on here" means "perl6-free"?
ribasushi_ on cent#1: shrug - time will tell ;) on cent#2: too early to elaborate, research is still ongoing. I just wantd to state this outright now, as to not have Zoffix be hounded in several months as "see?! that's all because of you!". But yes - pm6-free among other things 17:37
tobs` backlogs
ribasushi_ and on that note - beertime &
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El_Che weird? pm6 is not a problem on CPAN and CPAN is not perl5's problem 17:38
jmerelo El_Che: this is starting to be too much for me. 17:39
tobs` jmerelo: all the things you said earlier about the alias being an alias are very accurate, but my fear is that this goes over 90% of people's heads. Raku being the "unofficial alias" is two nuances that are easily swallowed.
and the Advent calendar will seamlessly mix Raku and Perl 6 as it seems
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jmerelo tobs`: just because Zoffix has changed his proposals to Raku, I think. Which I don't know how far it will if the executable and everything are still called perl6 17:40
tobs` fwiw, when I told people at $dayjob that I'm using "Perl 6, but it's not the next version of perl 5, but an entirely new language", their response was "k, guess you know what you're doing"
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tobs` recently, when I brought up the naming change and added a few half-sentences to my explanation of what p6 is, all I got back were blank stares 17:41
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tobs` so, I kind of get the sentiment of something being "actively harmful" 17:41
jmerelo tobs`: and then now we'll have to do something like start saying "perl 6" slowly and then change in mid-sentence depending on the reacting we get...
tobs` granted, I should cut my explanations shorter in the future :-)
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jmerelo And I still don't know what's going to happen. Is it going to be as easy as 3xx redirects from raku.org to perl6.org? ln -s perl6 raku? Something totally different? 17:42
tobs` but that is all that's on my mind about the topic. I'm not really against it
Zoffix tobs`: so don't use the explanation? Just pick one name. I had to use the same phrase as you at a local meetup and their response was "Oh yeah! Porting legacy banking code is part of my job" 17:43
'start saying "perl 6" slowly and then change in mid-sentence' Why? 17:44
Pick a name and use it.
We have plenty of problems without having to invent imaginary ones.
jmerelo Zoffix: thing is, some people will just love the name Perl 6. Some people will hate it. That's the whole point of requesting a stage name, right? So until you know in which company you are, we should better be careful. 17:45
Zoffix ribasushi: why remove Perl6 from CPAN? Isn't it just a dir inside user dirs that tools simply need to ignore?
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Zoffix jmerelo: but if I read you right, you're bringing this up as a criticism against the alias. So in the non-alias world your scenario plays out by people hating Perl 6. Full stop. In fact, contrary to being a problem, an alias gives you a way out of that situation but to go as far as to say we now have to pause mid-sentence… 17:47
jmerelo Zoffix: that wasn't my intention. I was actually happy about the whole thing, but it really hurts to see some people from the community get hurt because of it. 17:48
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Zoffix IMO it's because they're reacting to the world two days before any official announcements about the second name occur, rather than giving this thing a chance to spread and have real effects. 17:50
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jmerelo Zoffix: that commentary was done tongue in cheek. But I really don't know how's this going to really play out, and when we should use "Perl 6" and when we should use the alias 17:52
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Zoffix jmerelo: the general idea is you pick a name you believe is the better of the two and use it consistently, so there's no real "when" unless you're doing something specialist, like preparing marketing materials for the language. 17:56
b2gills Altreus: Perhaps you want to use the OO::Actors module instead of OO::Monitors 17:57
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SmokeMachine is there a way on META6.json to say an optional dependency? 18:53
Grinnz Hi, I just wanted to say thanks to Zoffix for pushing and Larry for enabling the possibility of healing the rift between our communities. I am happy to be able to refer to this language without implying the doom of my preferred language that pays my bills. And to those who are not enthralled with the idea, I just hope that you can give it some time, and remember that this is solving real problems had by real people, even if it 18:57
doesn't seem to solve anything for you. I look forward to seeing Raku stand on its own feet and no longer be held back by Perl.
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pmurias Zoffix: the big problem is how you are going to market Rakudo as a brand new language 19:18
El_Che: I don't think we should give a damn what Perl 6 haters think, Perl 5 folk who like Perl 6 are the important target 19:23
Xliff I'm getting this error when attempting to build rakudo: paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/fcjh...l0NNLnDivA 19:32
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Zoffix Xliff: are you sure your MoarVM matches Rakudo version? That error looks a lot like something that was fixed .5-3 months ago. 19:34
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Xliff Zoffix: What's the best way to fix that? 19:34
Zoffix Xliff: it's the standard behaviour, so to fix it you'd undo whatever might be causing it. Like an old MoarVM installed somewhere? 19:35
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Xliff I am assauming it is, since I am using rakudobrew, and MoarVM is built at the same time. 19:35
Zoffix Hm. No idea then
Xliff Crap! I do not want to nuke, but maybe that's the only choice. *sigh*
Zoffix Xliff: how are you building it? `rakudobrew build 2018.11` or something? 19:36
Xliff No. "rakudobrew build moar"
Zoffix Xliff: that builds master. Try building a tested release
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Zoffix There's R#2474 so at least something is broken on master ATM 19:37
synopsebot R#2474 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2474 [build][⚠ blocker ⚠] Build hangs on 32-bit boxes
Xliff Cloning into 'moar-2018.11'... 19:38
error: pathspec '2018.11' did not match any file(s) known to git
that was "rakudobrew build moar 2018.11" 19:39
thundergnat Hmm. Has perl6.org completely been changed over to HTTPS? github.com/supernovus/perl6-http-client is now failing tests that are looking for an HTTP connection.
Zoffix Xliff: oh sorry, 2018.10 is the latest
thundergnat: yes, all our sites force HTTPS (have been for awhile now)
thundergnat Interesting. The module installed ok as late as mid October, but no longer does. 19:40
Just needs updated tests looks like. 19:41
Zoffix thundergnat: we did some fix ups today. It's possible the tests were hitting some place that still had no SSL on it
Xliff OK. Going back to 2018.10 looks like it is working.
Zoffix \o/ 19:42
Xliff Then I have another issue.
Zoffix Installing all modules again, because you're using rakudobrew? :)
Xliff I will gist it.
thundergnat Zoffix: Ah. Makes sense. Thanks.
Xliff Zoffix: Crap! If I have to do that I may as well nuke everything and start over. That will NOT be fun.
Zoffix :)
Yeah, you'll have to do it 19:43
Xliff Anyway, this was the error I was getting:
Oh. I already posted that link... nm
Zoffix The "MVMHash representation requires MVMString keys" error? 19:44
Xliff Zoffix: BTW - I believe congratulations are in order. Raku++
Zoffix That's the one I said got fixed.
Xliff: thanks.
El_Che pmurias: my point is that p5 folks are not the target at all for the alias. They all know about perl6 anyways. 19:53
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: her presentation was beautiful! :) 19:57
El_Che SmokeMachine: gymnastic daughter? congrats 19:58
SmokeMachine El_Che: yes, thanks!
El_Che SmokeMachine: my daughters like to perform as well (ballet, musical, piano) 19:59
Impressed on how they can handle the stress
jmerelo SmokeMachine: :-) congrats. 20:00
SmokeMachine usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/...G_3479.JPG 20:02
El_Che: yes, they are stronger than we think... :) 20:03
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: what happened that made you install SQLite by hand? 20:07
I mean DBIish 20:09
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El_Che SmokeMachine: oh, she looks happy and proud 20:17
SmokeMachine: a good day!
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Woodi hi today 20:18
SmokeMachine El_Che: yes! she is! :) 20:19
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Woodi IMO discussing new name for Perl 6 is point less. in the day of the flaying mug there was decided that new version is needed, nothing since then changed. 20:20
alias is funny thing :)
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El_Che that's part of the problem. In the beginning it looked like p6 was just the next version. Then time elapsed. 20:21
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Woodi imagine Wirth being deny to create Modula 4 becouse it introduce functional programming so will be uncompatible ::) 20:21
elf-king Woodi: LOL 20:22
Woodi also Perl 5 is 10 - 20 times faster and v6 is still in academic shape, IMO 20:23
El_Che apple and pears kind of thing
Woodi yes, but show state 20:24
jmerelo SmokeMachine: DBIish was what produced tests errors. Lots of them, Oracle, Pg, the works.
El_Che it's unlikely p5 will get built-in concurrency and other modern stuff p6 has. But's that's ok. The competition is other languages not p5<->p6 20:25
SmokeMachine jmerelo: so, wasn't a Red error?
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jmerelo SmokeMachine: no, it was an error with a dependency install 20:25
SmokeMachine jmerelo: thank you for the help! :) 20:26
Woodi also Perl 5 is forever inside UNIX, so have rock solid position forever
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jmerelo SmokeMachine: no problem. I still have a half-baked example in my directory... Red is a really good idea, and something that really helps the ecosystem. I'd love to see it fly, and will do what I can to help 20:26
El_Che Woodi: like awk? 20:27
jmerelo Woodi: rock solid positions have been known to crumble and disappear all of a sudden
Woodi yes :) and ed
El_Che Woodi: see how ruby became irrelevant in unix installs and on how python3 is supeseding 2
jmerelo I just installed Debian Jessie, and it features perl 5.20 out of the box allright. It also features Python 2.7. Not long ago, there was no Python. So...
El_Che rhel 8 is killing python 2 20:28
Woodi Perl 5 have compatibility to systems from 1995
SmokeMachine jmerelo: Ill try to work faster to publish Red sooner...
El_Che yes, is its strength and weakness: you pay stability with the lack of progress 20:29
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SmokeMachine jmerelo: but I think Ill publish it without every single feature I've planned... 20:29
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El_Che that's a discussion always present in p5: which one to favour 20:30
Woodi SmokeMachine: any link ?
El_Che SmokeMachine: it's called agile :)
SmokeMachine Woodi: of Red?
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SmokeMachine Woodi: github.com/FCO/Red 20:30
Woodi El_Che: stability for me pls. for few next decades. some feature deprecation is ok 20:31
SmokeMachine: thanx
SmokeMachine El_Che: but Im afraid of not having enough features to prove the point of using it...
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El_Che Woodi: yes, that the discussion. Personally I would have loved a modern built-in OO and signatures :) 20:32
and built-in multicore concurrency
It would kick python out of the race :) 20:33
SmokeMachine Woodi: if you could, Id love to have some comments...
Woodi we all love built-in goodies :)
SmokeMachine: checking :)
El_Che: v5 new OO could be syntacting sugar. for now Perl OO is locked by both Perl6 and Moose :) 20:35
El_Che Woodi: people have been talking for ever for adding those 2 features. THe experimental signatures pissed off a lot of people, the inclusion of OO is still in the prototype phase (not a critic there as it *is* hard to add stuff without breaking old code). 20:37
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Woodi so maybe we need Perl 5 and 1/2 for cutting off some internals ? 20:38
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Woodi probably just a dream, no enough developers and sponsors for that.. 20:39
El_Che Woodi: I am under the impression that that is a very hard task to do and people are not lining up to do it
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El_Che Woodi: the most viable thing for that is lizmat's vision of speeding up perl6 so it be a target for migrating p5 code 20:40
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Woodi I realy would like to have Perl5 such as it is today, just less bugs :) same as ed, grep, awk - something that is laying around ready to use 20:42
El_Che I would love to stay more versatile than that
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Woodi would be nice :) but probably some commercial company like RedHat or some gov is needed for that. so not very probable... 20:44
we have too small globe...
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leont El_Che: Speed up and stabilize. I think the latter is underestimated. 20:47
andrewshitov I just have to admit that I am happy that I never took any serious part in Perl 6 development and was mostly an observer (while being able to force my decisions :) It is really stupid (yes, silly and childish) to remove comments you don't like. I really hope that Perl 6 community will not let Perl 6 to die because someone reads too many marketing books.
El_Che andrewshitov: about what specifically are you referring? 20:48
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El_Che leont: I agree, but in my experience p5 has been fast and stable (besides the known broken features). 20:48
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El_Che leont: thing is that I expect it to stay that way, but I am not sure if new features will arrive 20:49
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El_Che 21:48 <+El_Che> andrewshitov: about what specifically are you referring? 20:51
andrewshitov El_Che: to a couple of removed comments from github.com/perl6/doc/issues/2443 20:52
btw, are Raku people allowed to modify Perl 6? :-D 20:53
El_Che IC, the original poster (jmerelo) didn't appreciate that eather
deleted comments seems to be really gone (instead of hidden or versioned) 20:54
I just see the deletion action
I suspect you weren't trolling, in that case I don't see why they would be removed
andrewshitov My comment was "ignore it" 20:57
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andrewshitov Paul's comment was more neutral: "Perl 6 is a perfect name for it. We didn't factionalize and fracture over a name change when Perl 5 broke compatibility with Perl 4." 20:58
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Kaiepi i've only deleted one comment before, and that's because it was blatantly wrong 20:58
ugexe i found it a little funny that originally it was claimed there would be no blanket changes regading the alias. yet the next day we saw multiple people start changing rakudo/perl6 to raku
andrewshitov OK who is brave to say that he deleted those two comments?
Zoffix andrewshitov: well, the issue did state that alias was BDFLs decision and discussions about whether/what it should be were offtopic 20:59
andrewshitov: the name of the deleter show up to me. Are you a member of perl6 group?
El_Che In case you point to Zoffix, he wasn't the one :)
andrewshitov Just say who 21:00
ugexe stmuk deleted a comment from ash 7 hours ago
Zoffix andrewshitov: as for "reads too many marketing books". Marketing is how I've been making a living for over a decade now, so if that comment was directed to me, it's inaccurate :) 21:01
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buggable New CPAN upload: Augment-Util-0.0.2.tar.gz by DOOM cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/D/DO/...0.2.tar.gz 21:01
New CPAN upload: Object-Examine-0.0.2.tar.gz by DOOM cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/D/DO/...0.2.tar.gz
New CPAN upload: method-menu-0.0.2.tar.gz by DOOM cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/D/DO/...0.2.tar.gz
New CPAN upload: Symbol-Scan-0.0.2.tar.gz by DOOM cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/D/DO/...0.2.tar.gz
Zoffix (I only read a couple of marketing books! har-har)
El_Che andrewshitov: I get you're pissed off, but don't redirect your anger to everyone on the repo :)
andrewshitov Zoffix: you made a few very dedicated people extremely unhappy 21:02
Zoffix andrewshitov: why me?
andrewshitov BYEEEEEE i will never log in here again
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Zoffix See ya \o 21:02
El_Che That was a strange reaction
Woodi El_Che: are you reading my mind ? :) 21:03
Zoffix Well, he does have a book collection of "Perl 6" books. I guess he feels that effort is being threatened.
That's the Andrew Shitov, author of "Perl 6 Deep Dive", and at least one other Perl 6 book
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El_Che andrewshitov: in case you read this. Your complain was addressed including by the person you (wrongly) suggested deleted your comments. It was a constructive interaction. I see no need to overreact. 21:04
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Dr_Paradise Hello. I've read a little about SNOBOL4 in Sammet's 1969 History of Programming Languages 21:05
Zoffix \o
Dr_Paradise which has a data type called 'pattern' which, I think, uses a context free grammar approach (i'm not too good with the terminology) tfor string pattern matchin 21:06
*matching
and I've just been wondering if this could vaguely relate to the 'grammars' in Perl 6? 21:07
in the sense that it looks like you're able to write context free grammars in Perl 6
yoleaux AlexDaniel: See how code execution works in CVE-2018-17456 21:08
Zoffix isn't familiar with those terms to know the answer...
AlexDaniel yoleaux: thanks, but I figured it out myself
Dr_Paradise and I was hoping that somebody could perhaps point me to some papers on the development of grammar in perl 6
Zoffix Dr_Paradise: the old design documents are at design.perl6.org/ Not sure if they mention grammars tho 21:09
Dr_Paradise thanks! 21:10
jnthn Dr_Paradise: Since Perl 6 grammars allow the embedding of Perl 6 code within them, they're actually more powerful than context free; that said, without doing that embedding, I think context free accurately captures their expressive power. 21:12
yoleaux 3 Nov 2018 20:50Z <lizmat> jnthn: looking at the HYPER() structure: I wonder whether it would be an idea to create a Hyper class that would keep the op / dwim-left / dwm-right as attributes so they wouldn't have to be passed around all of the time ?
AlexDaniel: No need 21:13
jnthn Dr_Paradise: S05 in the link Zoffix gave you has details, but they're a form of Parsing Expression Grammar where tie-breaking is primarily done on a declarative prefix. In fact, the grammar language is broken up (though largely transparently to the user) into declarative and imperative constructs, the declarative bits forming a regular language. 21:14
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jnthn We tend to say "Perl 6 grammars write your lexer for you", which is kinda true, but really means "can extract the regular bits out of the larger grammar" 21:15
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Dr_Paradise jnthn: That's so interesting, thank you. I'll get to digging on this right away! 21:18
Geth doc: uzluisf++ created pull request #2445:
Properly align comments and add few more examples		 21:21
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El_Che I don't get the drama and what a Perl Conference has to do with anything: twitter.com/perlcon/status/1059193...49536?s=19 21:27
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Zoffix El_Che: that's the continuation of "<El_Che> That was a strange reaction " 21:28
El_Che Is it a trantum? A easy way of for not organising it? Am i missing something beside the deleted comment (action not approved by everyone as told to him)? 21:29
I must be missing something as this 8s completely non sensical to me 21:30
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El_Che The last minute volunteering was really a very nice gesture, but as I don't understand the problem I don't see what demands need to be met to unpause the preparations 21:32
tadzik what is this silly drama, wtf 21:34
that just makes the orgainzers look childish imho
who made this decision? It sounds a lot like "my option didn't win in this debate so I'm gonna stomp the ground, turn around and act offended until someone pats my back personally" 21:35
the previous tweet even makes the joke out of the debate in the first place! So what is it, a laughing matter or a subject jeopardising the biggest perl conference on this side of the pond? 21:36
Skarsnik hm. could writing a disamsembler be a cool use of grammar?
this look overkill/not adapted at all xD
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Zoffix tadzik: well, his prediction is that this is the end of the world as we know it. Since nothing else bad is going on, I assume he decided to stir up some shit on his own. 21:39
timotimo let's hope we won't be kicked out of yapc/*pw, TPF, ... 21:40
El_Che the use the pluralis maiestatis is concerning, where "we" is ash and "perl6 community" is one person. Like tadzik says it makes the orga looks unproffessional, and creates 7 certainly for people that need to arrange travel or time off...
marcusr what a weird announcement :-/ 21:41
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tadzik Zoffix: they now say that it's a business decision 21:45
I don't even, I just won't respond
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tadzik El_Che: yes, that's a good point 21:46
do I want to plan my summer around something so seemingly fragile?
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Zoffix He even invited me in the past! 21:47
tadzik Skarsnik: heh, that's an interesting idea, grammars for parsing binary :) 21:48
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tadzik there was this language for defining network protocols, what was that? 21:48
timotimo does scapy have something for that?
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tadzik iirc it was kind of like a grammar of sorts-ish 21:48
timotimo or is it called scrapy?
tadzik scrapy is that python thing for web scrapers, no? 21:49
Zoffix Draft of contributors list for 6.d release: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/9e3e561...963f4b6346
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Zoffix hopes all the critical bugs in the contrib script have been resolved. 21:49
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Skarsnik but this look useless to dissamble stuff, since most of the time it's just if (currentByte & instruction) process instruction/arguments, currentByte = next n bytes 21:50
Zoffix Is alphabetical list better?
El_Che business decision, representing a marketing alias as a firk? Ok, I've got my answer. An easy way out.
Zoffix (right now it's by commits number)
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Skarsnik Zoffix, there is my real name and my nickname (Sylvain Colinet) 21:51
timotimo Skarsnik: btw i saw a few of your runs, at least partially :) 21:52
Skarsnik runs of what? x)
timotimo evermore if i'm not mistaken
Skarsnik Hoo. was at the start of the year then ^^
timotimo ha, yeah
did you stop?
Skarsnik I don't much have time/will to do serious speedrun nowaday 21:53
timotimo mhm
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Skarsnik Need to commit time to practice then time to do runs ^^ 21:54
Zoffix A round of applause for top 10 contributors to 6.d release, by number of commits: (Zoffix Znet => 6004 Elizabeth Mattijsen => 4135 Jonathan Worthington => 2692 Samantha McVey => 1361 Pawel Murias => 1204 JJ Merelo => 1129 Will "Coke" Coleda => 1029 Paweł Murias => 995 Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer => 840 Timo Paulssen => 776)
tadzik Zoffix: I think you got pmurias in there twice :) 21:55
but yeah, applause!
Zoffix oh yeah, good catch
timotimo many of my commits were low-impact :P
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Zoffix m: say 6004/365 21:57
camelia 16.449315
Zoffix
.oO( I need to get a life )
m: say 6004/(3*365)
camelia 5.483105
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Zoffix Fixed list, with tbrowder___ now included as 10th :) (Zoffix Znet => 6005 Elizabeth Mattijsen => 4135 Jonathan Worthington => 2692 Pawel Murias => 1984 Samantha McVey => 1361 JJ Merelo => 1129 Will "Coke" Coleda => 1029 Wenzel P. P. Peppmeyer => 840 Timo Paulssen => 776 Tom Browder => 685) 21:58
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Skarsnik I could do a parser for IPS file (binary patch format) as an advent post maybe. but it's a bit trivial/short 21:59
[Coke] seeing more examples cropping up with explicit 'use v6.c' in them. is this intentional?
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Zoffix [Coke]: what's the error? 22:00
[Coke] (note that this requires special treatment at the moment for these to be tested.)
Zoffix [Coke]: oh, you mean new docs examples
Zoffix wasn't following docs repo update
FWIW, these are the only version-controlled changes we have: gist.github.com/zoffixznet/40ea7db...eaea131f46
timotimo Skarsnik: if it's trivial and/or short, maybe implement it in a second lang you're familiar with and highlight some differences; there should be ways to pad it out :) 22:01
Zoffix So examples with explicit `use v6.c` should be fairly minimal
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timotimo we'll soon have $_ being "not dynamic" by default, iiuc 22:01
Skarsnik I already have 2-3 implementation of that
C/C++/C# xD 22:02
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Geth doc: 35a99179ad | Coke++ | util/manage-page-order.p6
whitespace
 22:02
doc: e6d184789d | Coke++ | doc/Language/traps.pod6
remove duplicate word
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/traps
timotimo that's the format used for romhacks? 22:03
Skarsnik yeah, it's pretty dumb like : 2 bytes for size, 3 bytes for offset then data. and if size is 0, you read the next 2 bytes to repeat the next byte this new size time 22:04
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Zoffix chromatic: you show up in the 6.d release commit log, but since you requested yourself left off 6.c release, I'm going to assume you wish to be excluded from 6.d as well 22:07
s/commit log/contributors list/;
Skarsnik good night ^^ 22:08
Zoffix \o
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timotimo gnite 22:09
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Zoffix The list of authors as it appears in the release brochure: temp.perl6.party/6.d-authors.pdf 22:16
Zoffix hopes there are no omissions due to contrib script bugs
(context: rakudo.party/post/The-Missing-Cont...s-of-Perl6 )
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Zoffix is amused "Perl 6" without nbsp decided to get slit on two lines in this paragraph of all things: i.imgur.com/02j79gv.png 22:19
timotimo should we alsk people to also point out if they're in there multiple times? 22:20
tadzik is in there twice-in-a-row 22:21
once with and once without nickname in the middle
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Zoffix timotimo: well, the release is happening in ~5hr, so I hope people here can glance over and notice dupes, but otherwise #YOLO 22:21
timotimo there's also a CC as well as a cc 22:22
masak is in there once as Carl Masak and once as Carl Mäsak
Zoffix Ideally, these dupes would result in people adding selves to rakudo/rakudo/CREDITS or perl6/docs/CREDITS so the script knows the dupes refer to a single human
ugh. lots of dupes :) I'm switching it to purely alphabetical ordering then, because merging dupes moves the person on the list and I don't know where to, without re-running the contrib script 22:23
timotimo richard hainsworth is also finanalyst 22:25
pmurias tadzik: "re win the debate", I don't think there was any sort of debate victory, TimToady just choose an alias 22:26
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Zoffix timotimo: updated: temp.perl6.party/6.d-authors.pdf 22:34
timotimo OK, alphabetic now. i guess that's probably fine 22:35
is it fine to just put non-ascii at the end? like the last two?
(also, the comma between the last two is not easily distinguished from the characters, unless i guess you know what the character is supposed to look like) 22:36
Zoffix I just did .key.fc.sort on the Bag's values, so that's proper alphabetic sorting
timotimo that's fair
Zoffix .sort({.key.fc}) I meant
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El_Che Zoffix: great to hear 6.d is being released soon! 22:41
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Kaiepi i can't wait for 6.d 22:44
what other new features are there in it besides non-blocking react/await? 22:45
Zoffix Draft of release brochure, if anyone wanted to check spelling/issues: temp.perl6.party/release.pdf
Zoffix relocates
Kaiepi: ^ in the brochure
Kaiepi thanks 22:46
>New 22:48
for
statement modifiers
hyper
for
,
race
for
, and
lazy for
shit didn't mean to spam
but this is neat
timotimo "version by default and follow their standard release" kind of sounds like it wants another word at the end. schedule? 22:49
Kaiepi lots of good stuff in there
props to those who worked hard on it 22:50
timotimo i worked soft on it
Kaiepi lol
hopefully i can get .native-descriptor for async sockets merged and functioning before 6.d gets released so i don't have to check the version of moar being used once i move my projects over to 6.d 22:51
timotimo "already implemented during 6.c version period" wants a "the"?
Kaiepi ?
timotimo i think it reads a bit strange? 22:54
"• next/last/redo in a loop that collects its last statement values return Empty for the iterations they run on" - why would "redo" emit anything, though?
patrickb Zoffix: I'm in the contributors PDF three times. I guess it's my fault by not using consistent git configs. "Patrick Sebastian Böker", "Patrick Sebastian Zimmermann" and "Patrick Zimmermann" are all me (i changed my last name recently). "Patrick Böker" is what I'm called nowadays. 22:56
timotimo the more duplicates we find, the easier it will be to read the names on a printed-out version of the brochure 22:58
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timotimo do we want to spell ".first can take :$kv" as ".first can take :kv" instead? to make clear that only passing True (or a truthy value) makes a difference? 23:04
open takes :out-buffer, is that a buffer size or just "buffer at all, or not?"
Geth doc: Kaiepi++ created pull request #2447:
Document async socket .native-descriptor		 23:05
timotimo may also want to have a $ in one case
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timotimo there's a few places where a & is not present where it ought to for consistency: 23:07
below &spurt, and &prompt there's uniprops and uniprop, symlink, and link that don't have &
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timotimo there's also the atomicint operators and right below them the <=, >=, != and ≤, ≥, and ≠ operators without the &infix:< > around them 23:08
likewise on the next page the <=> operator mentioned for Complex and DateTime isn't &infix:<>'d 23:09
m: say <a b c d e>.List.to 23:10
camelia No such method 'to' for invocant of type 'Str'. Did you mean any of these?
so
tc

in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
timotimo "List type has .to and .from methods", i don't think that's right? perhaps just NYI and i don't know what they're supposed to do 23:11
"• Semaphore: control access to shared resources by multiple processes" - we may want to say "threads" instead of "processes" here? 23:13
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timotimo samemark in "clarifications of edg case/coercion behaviour" probably also wants an &; same for map ("inside sunk for"), splice; are classify and classify-list refering to subs or methods? 23:16
"is-deeply" wants the & in front 23:17
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timotimo "defined routine" wants the &, sum ("can handle lists with junctions in them") also wants a & 23:18
"dir-created" will want &dir, probably 23:20
"say, note, put, print, and printf routines autothread Junctions" wants lots of & 23:21
and a few lines lower, "say/note guaranteed to call .gist" also wants the & 23:22
"Attempting to parametarized type constraints" - probably "to use", maybe "to parameterize type constraints"
"Literal constructs put and put for throw" probably wants something made red 23:24
jnthn About `.from` and `.to`, they map to .[0].from and .[*-1].to, and exist for the sake of m:g and $/.from and $/.to working
timotimo ah, that's good to know 23:26
Zoffix timotimo: the & thing is on purpose: `&foo` subroutine, `.foo` method call, `foo` routine available as both method and sub 23:27
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timotimo "if you have any questions [...], you can ask a question on our help chat" wants changed, and perhaps have mailing list or other ways to contact added 23:27
ah!
in that case my suggestions are at least 50% bogus :)
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timotimo i could totally have understood that 23:28
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Zoffix Kaiepi: nope, .native-descriptor is 6.e stuff. Likely to be the *first* 6.e feature tho :) 23:49
Kaiepi ah, ok 23:52
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