»ö« #raku and #raku-dev are OPEN FOR BUSINESS | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by mst on 15 October 2019.
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cpan-p6 New module released to CPAN! Net::IP (1.1.0) by 03TBROWDER 01:30
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nine AlexDaniel: done 06:50
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AlexDaniel samcv: any way to know the currently supported unicode version? 12:37
samcv: btw you might want to join #raku and #raku-dev :)
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AlexDaniel samcv: I had to do this but it's ugly: github.com/cygx/p6-unicode-gcb/pul...f6d0604R15 12:45
especially given that 2019.10 is not released yet
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cpan-p6 New module released to CPAN! Gnome::Gtk3::Glade (0.8.8) by 03MARTIMM 13:41
New module released to CPAN! Gnome::N (0.13.8) by 03MARTIMM
New module released to CPAN! Gnome::Gtk3 (0.18.5) by 03MARTIMM
New module released to CPAN! Gnome::GObject (0.14.7) by 03MARTIMM
New module released to CPAN! Gnome::Glib (0.14.4) by 03MARTIMM
New module released to CPAN! Gnome::Gdk3 (0.14.11) by 03MARTIMM
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AlexDaniel cpan-p6: help 14:01
tyil it has no help :( 14:02
AlexDaniel tyil: is it your bot though?
tyil yes
AlexDaniel tyil: can you rakufy it?
tyil yes
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tyil do you want just the name to be altered? CPAN is still CPAN to us, even in Raku times, right? 14:03
AlexDaniel tyil: yeah, it's still cpan. I don't care that much about -p6 part, but it could renamed to cpan-raku easily, I guess 14:04
tyil: also, where's the source code for it?
tyil gitlab.com/tyil/app-cpan-uploadannouncer-irc
AlexDaniel tyil: I found this but the cert is self-signed: git.tyil.nl/perl6/app-cpan-uploadannouncer-irc
eh, that's a lot of files… 14:06
and not a lot of code…
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tyil you can safely ignore all the files not related to raku code 14:12
tyil shrugs
AlexDaniel tyil: how does it work, btw? So there's a DB somewhere which you can query?
tyil yes
I have two services running to get updates from nntp and cpan itself to find new modules, those are put in a db 14:13
I had to set it up like that because people got upset about not having updates when nntp was down
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tyil so I made it so I'm no longer dependant on a single source of information, and the bot just checks the DB every minute for additions 14:14
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AlexDaniel tyil: so the db is yours? 14:14
tyil yes
AlexDaniel it just sorta hurts me that there's whateverable which takes care of a lot of stuff (case in point: help messages), it's well documented and well tested, and it has consistent interface across all the bots 14:15
but people keep creating bots from scratch, which is probably fine if your project is large-ish, but then I open the source and see a bunch of files each less than 50 lines…
tyil I mean, I'm not creating it "from scratch", I'm using IRC::Client 14:16
AlexDaniel which whateverable also does, but it adds all sorts of goodies on top
tyil I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm saying that your "from scratch" sentiment is incorrect 14:17
AlexDaniel sure, but if you want to have a nice bot then you'd need to reimplement many whateverable features exactly from scratch
but whatever, just add a help message please
that points to the source 14:18
tyil .bots
cpan-raku_ 03cpan-raku_:121.0.1 (2019-04-12T16:14:21Z) reporting for duty! [Perl 6] 02git.tyil.nl/perl6/app-cpan-uploadannouncer-irc
tyil that needs updating, I see
but .bots is the de-facto standard for bots to show their source
AlexDaniel you've got to be kidding me
tyil so I'm kindof amazed that Whateverable doesn't do it
when you ewre just saying how great it is
AlexDaniel you realize what's going to happen when all bots answer that?
tyil yes, but that doesn't take away that *that*'s a de facto standard across bots all over the world 14:19
even if you don't like it
AlexDaniel facepalms
it's not that I don't like it, there's no way I'm adding that
tyil if you want to argue standardized features, don't pretend the rest of the world doesn't have standards already
AlexDaniel mst: send help please
tyil I'm not sure why you're getting this upset over something this trivial 14:20
AlexDaniel I won't add a feature that will make my bots K-lines immediately, wtf
tyil it's an irc bot that I made for fun (and because the other one was actually down)
mst .bots is not a de-facto standard, is a stupid idea, and is going to be Sigyn bait
tyil not some enterprise project I'm making for my manager who has all sorts of wacky ideas about what's good and what's not 14:21
you asked me to make a change, I made it almsot immediately
if you have other requests for changes, you can just ask for them all the same, no?
AlexDaniel yes, thank you for that. If you can add `help` command that'd be wonderful too
tyil not sure why you need to make up a story about standards, and do facepalming and all that stuff you did afterwards 14:22
I'll add it to my list of things
mst AlexDaniel: perlish people? reinventing things? say it ain't so 14:23
AlexDaniel I'm just saying that whateverables are packed with useful features, are well documented and well tested, have consistent interface, and are easy to maintain
kawaii .bots lmao is that a joke
tyil AlexDaniel: to you, perhaps
AlexDaniel and it'd be better if people were creating bots based on whateverable instead of rolling their own 14:24
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tyil mst: sygin being a bad, triggerhappy bot isn't my fault *shrug* 14:24
AlexDaniel alright alright enough :S 14:25
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AlexDaniel to be fair whateverable codebase is not the prettiest, but whenever I improve it I do so for all the bots at the same time… 14:26
mst with the number of bots we have, it would spam the fuck out of the channel in a way that would make any competent chanop trigger happy as well
tyil if a chanop doesn't know its own bot count, I don't think the word "competent" applies
Grinnz .bots is nonsense 14:27
sorry but no irc bot i have ever seen does that
mst normally I'd expect a bot to respond to 'help' or 'source'
preferably both
AlexDaniel bisectable6: source
bisectable6 AlexDaniel, github.com/perl6/whateverable
tyil dozens upon dozens of bots I've seen do that
AlexDaniel committable6: help
committable6 AlexDaniel, Like this: committable6: f583f22,HEAD say ‘hello’; say ‘world’ # See wiki for more examples: github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Committable
AlexDaniel evalable6: uptime
evalable6 AlexDaniel, 3 days, 15 hours, 27 minutes, and 24 seconds, 358.566406MiB maxrss. This is Rakudo version 2019.07.1-94-gd1f9d2848 built on MoarVM version 2019.07.1-50-gb614a7b4d implementing Perl 6.d.
tyil across all sorts of networks
maybe it's not popular on gratisnode 14:28
AlexDaniel thank you, evalable6
evalable6 AlexDaniel, It's my pleasure!
tyil maybe if you'd be a bit less of a dick about it I'd just remove it if it's unwanted
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mst hey, look, I managed to guess the actual commands available first time 14:28
because those are the actual standards
tyil it's not that hard, I've generally been pretty responsive fixing stuff in my services 14:29
AlexDaniel don't remove it if we don't have a replacement
tyil mst: being an asshat about it won't resolve any issues here
I'd suggest trying to be constructive
mst that was a point about standards being what people expect them to be
pmurias gist.github.com/pmurias/7f5b9e2fff...fad8ec5608 - any feeback on my rakudo.js tutorial? 14:30
tyil alright, no talking point trying to talk to you
Grinnz AlexDaniel: there is no need to make people use the same bot framework. tyil: please stop peddling this nonsense as standard
tyil Grinnz: except it actually is de facto standard, but as I said, I can just remove it
Grinnz it's not
mst it's not 14:31
tyil i've seen more bots supporting it than not
Grinnz and it's a bad idea, more importantly
mst exactly
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tyil I can see it being a bad idea, and again, not being dicks about just asking for its removal with reasons would have made me remove it already 14:31
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Grinnz i'm not saying people havent been being dicks, but you're also exaggerating that 14:31
tyil instead, I'm having to discuss pointless stuff in an irc channel that I only responded in to fix something that was just kindly asked of me
mst alex was being perfectly polite until you started being a dick
tyil alright, I guess there's nothing to be discussed or solved then 14:32
have a good day
mst tyil: .bots is a terrible idea, and 'source' and 'help' are better, please implement those instead to fit with the way the rest of the perlish bots work
tyil I'll gladly take another look tomorrow, when people can behave a bit better
Guest93 I am very impressed and really disappointed by how unconstructive and rude raku community is, especially given it's people, who are core developers or close to it. AlexDaniel, Grinnz, mst, the way you handle conversation requires a lot of improvement. 14:35
Grinnz 🤨
AlexDaniel Guest93: yeah, that's true 14:36
mst Guest93: I keep forgetting that tyil's high offence / low defence 14:37
being high offence / high defence it's a failure mode of mine
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AlexDaniel Guest93: you see, we're still trying to recover from the infra fallout we had, it's not fun 14:44
Guest93: which is why you see snarky remarks from me sometimes
kensanata Nevertheless, communications could have been better all around.
AlexDaniel nobody is arguing that, I hope 14:45
Guest93 Agree with kensanata, that is not an excuse.
discord6 <RaycatWhoDat> While it's not an excuse, branding the whole community as rude and unconstructive during a low point is a bit of a broad stroke. 14:48
Guest93 RaycatWhoDat It is indeed, i'll limit my statement to the persons mentioned above. 14:49
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AlexDaniel Guest93: now it's extremely personal :D 14:52
but yeah, that's ok :)
mst tyil is extremely smart and highly productive. also young, angry, and easily offended. it makes for an interesting set of social challenges. 14:53
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nine In my experience, getting such feedback is a good time to evaluate my own behaviour, regardless of whether I feel that it should be directed at me or not 15:04
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timotimo i would imagine .bots would be less problematic if the bots would respond in privmsg instead of in the channel? 15:09
AlexDaniel timotimo: if you have just a few bots then maybe 15:10
timotimo actually, notice at the user would be better than privmsg, if other clients behave like weechat does, which is put notices in the same buffer 15:11
otherwise you suddenly have thirty new query windows open
AlexDaniel can somebody /notice me? I'm not sure I even see them…
timotimo sent one
AlexDaniel yeah, I'd never notice that… 15:12
tadzik :D
AlexDaniel they appear in the main server window
tadzik but, if you expected it...?
timotimo if it's an answer to a query, and you expect a notice to happen, then surely you could
AlexDaniel erc-- :(
timotimo i can totally see why you'd want a command that gets every bot on the channel to self-identify, though spamming it in the chat directly seems very bothersome
especially if it's a whateverable, which sometimes stop reacting entirely when some task is being performed 15:13
which we should probably do something about :) :)
tadzik what if you had a meta-bot, which all the other bots would privmsg and then the meta-bot only sends one message to the main channel? ;)
Grinnz unfortunately irc client handling of notices is entirely arbitrary, and as a lesser used feature it's unreliable
AlexDaniel timotimo: it's already fixed for long-running commands :)
committable6: sleep 10
committable6: help
committable6 AlexDaniel, Like this: committable6: f583f22,HEAD say ‘hello’; say ‘world’ # See wiki for more examples: github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Committable
AlexDaniel, ¦sleep: «Cannot find this revision (did you mean “all”?)»
timotimo cool
AlexDaniel committable6: HEAD sleep 10
committable6: help
committable6 AlexDaniel, Like this: committable6: f583f22,HEAD say ‘hello’; say ‘world’ # See wiki for more examples: github.com/perl6/whateverable/wiki/Committable
Grinnz at some point it was intended that all bots would respond in notices, but this is just impractical
committable6 AlexDaniel, ¦HEAD(f3dda96): ««timed out after 10 seconds» «exit signal = SIGHUP (1)»»
AlexDaniel that I see 15:14
right here
timotimo this shows up on the channel, yeah?
tadzik yup
AlexDaniel and I totally didn't know you could do that
Grinnz just as spammy as privmsg to the channel, though
timotimo it's at least a common trait of a message that you can use /ignore with
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timotimo do you call it impractical because no bot currently does it and you wouldn't get every bot to switch at the same time 15:15
or some other reason?
Grinnz because of irc client handling
timotimo oh, did you mean respond to the user in a notice, or respond to the channel in a notice?
Grinnz we have to work with what irc clients do, and for this they don't do the same thing
that was regarding user notices 15:16
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timotimo hm, do jabber clients implement any pubsub stuff apart from "now playing" state nowadays? 15:21
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timotimo surely everything that's wrong with irc could be fixed by re-imagining it as a publish/subscribe model! 15:29
with XML
mst s/XML/JSON/ # matrix 15:30
timotimo i have actually not yet looked at matrix a lot yet 15:31
tadzik it's quite nice, but a lot broader in scope than IRC or XMPP 15:32
AlexDaniel while we're at it, can somebody explain where should I register if I wanna use mastodon? In case of matrix I just selfhost my own server, but doing that for mastodon doesn't make much sense, right? 15:33
tadzik it makes the same sense really
but it's much easier (as in: it's possible :P) to migrate your account between mastodon instances 15:34
timotimo yeah, single-user instances are fine on mastodon
tadzik so no harm in going for something popular to try it out
timotimo i was on mastodon.social for a long time, then switched over to scifi.fyi, then scifi.fyi died :(
tadzik :(
I'm still on .social, procrastinating my moving away from it
timotimo i haven't posted on masto for a long time
but i was an "early" adopter :P 15:36
looks like feb 17 2017 is the earliest post i can find 15:37
AlexDaniel there's no debian package :(
now I remember why I didn't do it earlier…
timotimo not a big fan of containerized stuff? 15:38
a mastodon instance does have many individual parts
AlexDaniel timotimo: it's not that I'm not a fan, I just never did that
so let's say I'm a fan, then what should I do?
there's like official docker something? 15:39
tadzik give it a try, it's addictive and it's free
timotimo i haven't tried it myself but there does appear to be hub.docker.com/r/tootsuite/mastodon/
tadzik not sure if official, but hub.docker.com/r/tootsuite/mastodon/ is looking legit
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Ulti SmokeMachine: thanks I'll look into this tonight 15:59
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El_Che (obligatory warning about running random 3rd party images; you're running them as root) 16:18
(and about the discussion, this is #perl6, people are more polite on #raku ;P ) 16:20
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AlexDaniel El_Che: it's an interesting idea, when someone is not being nice we can tell them to go to #perl6 17:24
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tadzik I remember times when #perl6 was being recommended as a nice and friendly place 17:27
AlexDaniel tadzik: right! But that's now #raku 17:28
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