svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com
Set by avar on 16 November 2006.
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weirdo hello 00:55
will operator overloading be possible with perl6?
Juerd Yes! 00:57
You can even invent your own operators, so you don't have to overload. (As overloading can be dangerous)
weirdo i'd personally love to make $string[4 .. 6] = 42; work
i was hooked on ruby, but its scarce in modules 00:58
its curses module is fubar :/
ruby had a certain influence on me - i discovered sub closures and anon subs in perl 00:59
now i can't program without them :-)
Juerd Heh 01:01
Good for you :)
gnuvince ?eval my $s = "Hello"; substr($s, 0, 2) = 42; $s
01:01 evalbot_r14838 is now known as evalbot_r14842
evalbot_r14842 \"42llo" 01:01
weirdo gnuvince, substr is long and hard to type 01:02
gnuvince weirdo: I don't recall seeing any array-indexing type of syntax for strings.
weirdo including "," arg separator and parens
gnuvince, ruby has it! :-) all kinds of
gnuvince in Ruby, String is an Enumerable IIRC 01:03
weirdo str[1 .. 3] = "foo" # 2nd arg is index
gnuvince So it has #[], #[]= et al.
weirdo str[1 ... 3] = "foo" # 2nd arg is relative index
will there be a switch statement?
gnuvince On steroids, yes. 01:04
It will be called given/when
weirdo oh. the one from Switch.pm! :-)
gnuvince perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html#Switch_statements
lambdabot Title: S04, tinyurl.com/y5beho 01:05
weirdo will 'if' be a statement, so i could do '$val = if 1; 1; else 2; ?
gnuvince statement.
weirdo sorry for all of these questions. i just got back to perl after a while of ruby and i'd love to see a release of perl6 :-)
gnuvince weirdo: get pugs :) 01:06
weirdo does it cover all of perl6's specs?
gnuvince also, send me your email address in private message, I'll hook you up with a commit access
Not all of it
weirdo is there a pugs cvs logs mailing list? 01:11
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agentzh seen audreyt 05:45
jabbot agentzh: audreyt was seen 3 days 17 hours 25 minutes 30 seconds ago
agentzh @tell audreyt is there a way to configure YAML::Syck not to escape chinese characters (such as those in GB2312) just as YAML? escaping leads to terrible YAML readability imho. thank you. :) 05:47
lambdabot Consider it noted.
audreyt @tell agentzh use utf8 and $YAML::Syck::ImplicitUnicode :) otherwise no, there's no easy way 06:10
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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weirdo i wonder if operator overloading would be supported if $arr[0] wouldn't be changed to @arr[0] 06:41
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audreyt how does those two relate? 06:45
lambdabot audreyt: You have 4 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
offby1 audreyt: saw your talk at Amazon from last month. Enthralling 06:54
audreyt video? or you were there? 06:55
offby1 video
bootlegged :-)
audreyt oooh. want! 06:56
upload it somewhere? I hear video uploading sites are plenty these days
offby1 I got the impression that it wasn't supposed to be broadcast, so ... 06:57
I've been unable to find documentation for (whatever the p6 equivalent is of) I/O layers. Is there any?
audreyt I certainly would like it to be broadcast...
offby1: maybe ask @amazon.com source to see if I can make it available under CC license?
offby1 anyway I don't have it. But if you want you could beg on the SPUG mailing list (Seattle PUG); one of the guys there has it
that would be the guy on SPUG. I'll ask 06:58
audreyt TreyHarris: can we get my amazon talk video published, or at least smuggle me a copy? :)
offby1: k, thanks!
I need to run soon
offby1 oh, is TreyHarris a SPUG guy? It was my first meeting and I didn't get any names 06:59
audreyt he invited me to amazon I think
offby1 composing mail now 07:01
audreyt danke
bbl...
offby1 sent 07:02
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dduncan Is anyone aware of problems with the perl6-language list? I sent a message to it over 5 hours ago and it hasn't propagated yet, where it usually propagates in a few minutes ... nntp.perl.org doesn't have it yet either 07:29
also, the newest messages either I or nntp.perl.org have are 15 hours old
jrockway power outage at the data center again? 07:36
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weirdo dduncan, show the email address, i'll check if mx is available 07:57
dduncan weirdo, the list address is [email@hidden.address] , and my sender address is [email@hidden.address] 08:07
weirdo % telnet mx.develooper.com. 25 08:08
Trying 63.251.223.176...
mx is dead
dduncan since my message wasn't returned to me yet, I assume that it will get through if the server is fixed, then 08:09
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anatolyv weirdo: you can't do "$val = if 1; 1; else 2;", but you can do "$val = do if 1; 1; else 2; " 08:52
offby1 would probably have tried “$val = (1 ?? 1 !! 2)” or something like it 08:53
anatolyv weirdo: most things are expressions already, but a few are statements, but turnable into expressions with 'do'.
weirdo i see. thanks!
anatolyv offby1: sure, i'm not suggesting to use that as real code :)
offby1 still feels that anyone who understands perl6 learned it through osmosis or something 08:54
must read synopses :-| 08:55
anatolyv weird: you asked about operator overloading. a concrete trivial example would be: sub infix:<+> ($x, $y) { $x*$y } 08:56
weirdo: now 3+5 is 15 etc.
offby1 don't try that at home!
anatolyv better, if you do 'my sub...', overloading only takes effect in current block of {}. 08:57
offby1: osmosis doesn't work, read those synopses! :) 08:58
offby1 that site that had the synopses with test cases mixed in sounds great, but last time I tried it it didn't work :-|
ah, better now. Still a bit slow, but at least the page loaded. (perlcabal.org/syn/S04.html if anyone cares) 09:01
lambdabot Title: S04 09:02
offby1 silly bot 09:03
weirdo anatolyv, can operators be overloaded for $@% individually? 09:13
i'd really love to have [] and []= for strings 09:15
anatolyv weirdo: not sure how you mean.
weirdo: [] for strings is easy to have.
weirdo or << for arrays
anatolyv weirdo: same.
weirdo that's great! :-) 09:16
anatolyv weirdo: and already here with <==
weirdo: the feed operator, more visual than << :)
weirdo: to have [] for strings, simply define &postcircumfix:<[]> specifalised for the first argument being a Str. 09:17
weirdo: (you can have many definitions of operators lying around, each working on its own class/es of arguments) 09:18
weirdo thanks! :-)
anatolyv weirdo: i think the reason it's not working by default is that in "string"[4..6], it's not clear what the numbers refer to: characters, bytes, graphemes. Perl6 strings are very very Unicode-friendly and can work on any of those levels. 09:19
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weirdo i think i'd implement it in a way to honor unicode and fallback if 'use bytes;' is given 09:21
i've got an idea 09:22
{} could use bytes exclusively
anatolyv {} looks more like hash access to people. or a code block. 09:23
but perl6 also has adverbs - colonised options you can pass to any operator/function. for example, we could have "string"[2..5]:c and "string"[2..5]:b 09:25
with one of them being the default or something
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weirdo that looks really interesting. when there's a release, i might not use ruby anymore 09:29
there were some things i hated in ruby: 09:30
anatolyv there are regular releases :)
they do not implement the full spec yet, and it's not perl6.0.0 yet
but most functionality works, real-world IO is possible, real OOP is here etc.
weirdo even with duck typing there are exceptions thrown on unknown methods. that's bad, because i can't "foo"[42 .. -1].length and survive 09:31
i could def undefined_method in NilClass, but i'd actually have to add it to every class :-(
anatolyv I see what you mean. 09:32
weirdo also, there's no compile-time strict checking, as in perl's `use strict'
i can foo(val) without val ever being defined, the script will crash at runtime, when that specific code path is taken 09:33
for rare code paths, i could even submit a release with a variable name typo present :-(
anatolyv hmm, shades of perl4 :) 09:34
weirdo i thought ruby's (and lisp's) lambdas were unique, but in perl, closures work the same with anon (and named, too) subs
anatolyv since perl 5.0005 or so, I believe.
weirdo sounds unusual, but i've been writing perl for 5 years and i every so often learn such things 09:35
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weirdo ruby's lambdas made me change some coding styles :-) 09:36
gaal I think closures existed before 5. Checking.
weirdo now i no longer have to pass things around, i just have to pass the anonymous sub :-)
gaal darn, I no longer have that perl4 handy.
weirdo parameter lists with opt-in pass-by-reference sound very neat, too! 09:37
i really hated these $$$$ :-)
anatolyv gaal: oh no!
weirdo i wonder. is there anything (apart from unit tests and contributed scripts) to do in pugs without knowing haskell? 09:38
if not, i might learn it as a result
anatolyv weirdo: well, when you say it like "contributed scripts" it doesn't sound all that important, but consider that a lot of the standard library modules fall into that category. 09:39
weirdo that's different :-) 09:41
i thought i could only write script examples in perl6
anatolyv so there's a lot of work to be done in perl6 and not haskell
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weirdo can you direct me to a todo list? 09:42
gaal there's a TODO file 09:43
one thing you might do is port your favorite p5 module
as you go along, you may find pugs is missing a feature
then you go write tests for that feature
by then you'll have more familiarity with pugs itself, as well as with Perl 6 09:44
sorry, TASKS
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anatolyv hey andara 09:46
andara hi anatolyv]
anatolyv andara: are you working on ajaxifying runpugs, by any chance? 09:47
andara no I'm not. I don't have experience with ajax libraries. Also, I think runpugs should function without JS. 09:48
anatolyv andara: that could, I believe, be arranged while simultaneously providing ajax-like response to browsers with JS. 09:50
andara anatolyv: that would be great. At the moment I only use JS to make runpugs behave more like a terminal. Would you like to put in some asynchronous transfer functionality? 09:51
anatolyv andara: I'll see if I can do it. I don't have any real experience with ajax either, but if I find some time to learn and play with it... I was impressed with tryruby.hobix.com/, and think it'd be great if runpugs looked like that. 09:54
lambdabot Title: try ruby! (in your browser)
anatolyv andara: in terms of continuous screen presence.
andara anatolyv: yes, I agree, it looks quite cool. And not having screen flicker would definitely be a good thing. I mailed why to ask if I could use the libraries but I got no reply. They don't have any copyright/licensing info. The core is prototype.js though. 09:57
anatolyv andara: I mailed him also and likewise got no reply :) 09:59
andara anatolyv: shame. It would be a waste to have to rebuild the functionality from scratch. BTW, did you try the runpugs devel? I 'd like to release it to replace the current version if there are no obvious bugs. 10:01
anatolyv andara: no, I didn't know there was a development version noticeably different from stable. Will try! 10:03
andara anatolyv: it's at feather.perl6.nl:8080/cgi-bin/runpugs2 10:06
It has command history and some JS to make it more like a terminal.
There is also a non-interactive version where you can type in a full script: feather.perl6.nl:8080/cgi-bin/runpugs2?ia=0
lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!, tinyurl.com/ymunfl
anatolyv andara: great, thanks. 10:08
andara anatolyv: my pleasure :-) 10:09
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anatolyv so... i can say $obj.method($arg). can i say $obj.method $arg? Or does it _have_ to be $obj.methid: $arg? 15:15
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xinming anatolyv: $obj.method: $arg isn't right either. 15:45
method $obj: $arg
method call must have parenthesis
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weirdo when: my %foo; $foo{bar}{baz} or 1; 15:53
$foo{bar} -> undef; is created implicitly
why so? is there any point in Perl doing so? 15:54
makes checking for existence of variable-length hashes a bit hard
s/ of / of items in /
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xinming weirdo: please ask in #perl 15:55
weirdo: here is for perl 6 developement only.
weirdo ok. sorry :-)
Gothmog_ weirdo: That behaviour is called autovivification. If you dereference an undef value, a var of the needed type is automagically created; if you want to check for existence, use exists(). perldoc -f exists 15:56
weirdo Gothmog_, it behaves the same. try: % perl -MData::Dumper -le 'my %foo; exists($foo{bar}{baz}); print Dumper %foo' 15:57
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weirdo oh. i should check for every item first. sorry for the offtopic noise. 15:59
anatolyv xinming: no, that's wrong. See S03, "Invocant marker". 16:23
xinming: $obj.method: $arg is fine.
but i wonder if $obj.method $arg is. 16:25
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anatolyv weirdo: to please you, Perl6 reduces autovivification to a small subset of cases compared to perl5 :) 16:30
weirdo: see end section of dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/syn/S09.html
lambdabot Title: Synopsis 9: Data Structures - perl6:, tinyurl.com/y9yha2
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xinming anatolyv: hmm, sorry, I think my mind is out-dated. >_< 16:33
anatolyv :) no worries. 16:35
anatolyv is trying to understand what "list operators" are, from the parser's point of view.
S0{2,3} are not terribly clear on this. 16:36
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fglock_ anatolyv: a list operator is an identifier before a list, like ( add 1, 2, 3, 4 ) 17:15
Juerd It is an operator that operates on a list.
[+] is not an identifier, but it is a list operator.
anatolyv fglock_, Juerd: the parser cannot know what it operates on what it must decide that it is a list operator. 17:23
*when it must decide 17:24
"a list", anyway, doesn't exist as a syntactic category. It's merely a term that happens to be an application of &infix:<,> . 17:26
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anatolyv I'm trying to understand whether, from a parser's point of view, it is enough to say "a listop is either the comma or a prefix op with the same precedence as the comma", or there is more to it. 17:28
gnuvince ?eval [=>] ("hello", "world", "bonjour", "monde") 17:31
evalbot_r14842 ("hello" => ("world" => ("bonjour" => "monde")))
anatolyv ?eval hello => 'world' 17:33
evalbot_r14842 ("hello" => "world")
anatolyv ?eval [=>] 'hello', 'world'
evalbot_r14842 ("hello" => "world")
anatolyv ?eval [=>] hello, 'world' 17:34
evalbot_r14842 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&hello"
fglock_ anatolyv: a listop can be declared with 'is assoc list'; unknown ops are parsed as 'provisional call', which makes it look like listop 17:36
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Juerd anatolyv: Lists are created because of the list context introduced by the list operator. 17:40
anatolyv: In other words: the parser has to know which operators are list operators, because it cannot see this in the syntax. 17:41
anatolyv fglock: I think S?? use "list operator" in two different meanings. One is "something which is followed by an argument list (parsed in list context), and has the precedence of all listops". The other is "something with the predecence of all listops".
for example: a bareword followed by whitespace is a listop in the first sense. It *must* have arguments after it. 17:42
on the other hand, ... is called a listop, but it's really just about the precedence. It doesn't have to have an argument, and is a &term: then.
listops in the first sense must be followed by whitespace, but ... doesn't have to be. 17:43
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anatolyv (nor does comma, which is an infix operator with list precedence) 17:43
Juerd: lists are created because of the comma. It's an infix list-creating operator. 17:44
fglock_ anatolyv: sorry, I confused 'is assoc list' - it means a different thing
anatolyv: the comma-op 'returns' a list 17:45
Juerd anatolyv: I don't believe that. I think that that is only possibly if we have a list data type, which we don't.
fglock_ a 'list operator' gets a list as an argument
Juerd Or I missed something again. 17:46
anatolyv fglock: that's what I'm saying. There is no such thing as a list to the parser. There is a listop though.
Juerd s/possibly/possible/
anatolyv Juerd: we have List and Seq, two of them.
Juerd Damn
The universe collapses.
anatolyv Juerd: comma in fact creates a Seq of its two arguments, I do believe.
Juerd: it collapses in a good way, making everything simpler. It's a good thing that the parser, and in a way even the compiler, don't have to know what "comma" is. 17:48
in the sense of not needing any special treatment for it. 17:50
fglock_ anatolyv: 'comma' can have many arguments - 1,2,3 is parsed as infix:<,>(1,2,3)
Juerd anatolyv: Simpler? It only adds needless complexity, like the possibility for having lists in non-list context. 17:51
anatolyv fglock_: an infix operator always has two arguments. In fact the way comma works depends on how its associativity is specified, which I think is underspecced, or at least I couldn't find it. 17:52
fglock_: if comma is right-associative, 1,2,3 is infix:<,>(1, infix:<,>(2,3))
Juerd anatolyv: And it makes flattening a whole lot more complex, because you can no longer say that lists always flatten. After all, if you can have something in item context, there's no implied requirement for flattening it anymore.
anatolyv fglock_: if comma is list-associative, 1,2,3 is something like LIST(infix:<,>, 1,2,3) or whatever AST uses to represent list associativity. 17:53
fglock_ you use 'is assoc list' to specify this particular behaviour
Juerd So then you have to define which things flatten, and which don't.
And a definition is always harder to learn than an implied consequence.
anatolyv Juerd: I think a List will always auto-promote to an Array in scalar context, and will therefore flatten itself. 17:54
Juerd Arrays don't always flatten. 17:55
An array called @foo does flatten, an array called $foo does not.
We did away with references, so we can no longer call $foo a "reference to an array", and explain that it's not an array and *thus* won't flatten. 17:56
anatolyv Juerd: I'm not sure I understand the distinction. An array callde $foo will usually be a Scalar holding an Array inside it.
Juerd No, that's no longer true.
First, there is no Scalar.
anatolyv Juerd: it's a very recent understanding :)
Juerd A string is an object, an array is an object.
An object can be named $foo. 17:57
Or @foo, if the object likes that.
anatolyv Juerd: there is a Scalar, it's just not the perl5 scalar at all.
Juerd There's no longer the distinction between "pure arrays" (perl 5 @foo) and "referenced arrays" (perl 5 $foo, perl 5 [])
They're just Arrays
Perhaps there is Scalar. 17:58
And because references and "normal values" are no longer different, again we no longer have the implied consequence for assignment. Each data type will have to define whether it will copy its value. And that again is harder to learn than what we had in Perl 5.
anatolyv Juerd: no. I think you're not up to the distinction between value types and container types. 17:59
Juerd: let me explain.
Juerd: you're right there everything's an object. A string is an object, and an array is an object. 18:00
Juerd There are a lot of things in Perl 6 that I absolutely love. But the new variable/value/type system isn't one of them.
anatolyv Juerd: but you understand it incorrectly.
Juerd I hope so
Teach me :)
anatolyv Juerd: when you write, for example, my $foo = "string", you do *not* end up with $foo being a Str object. This is severely underexplained in the synposes, unfortunately, though it's mentioned. 18:01
Juerd No, $foo is a container containing the value "string" which is a Str 18:02
anatolyv what you end up with is $foo being a Scalar container object which contains a Str object inside itself. A Scalar can contain anything (any object of any class).
"a contaner" is simply an object of a class that knows how to contain.
Juerd Right
But if you assign an array to $foo, 18:03
anatolyv typical such classes are: Scalar, Hash, Array.
Juerd what happens then?
anatolyv very simple: the Scalar $foo will hold an Array inside it. It's _almost_ identical, for all intents and purposes, to the situation in which you assign an array to @foo and end up an Array object.
the reason it's almost identical is wheneve you write a variable name, it's really understood by the compiler to be a call to ITEM on the object of that name. 18:04
Juerd So, $foo = @bar means that $foo is a Scalar containing an Array, while @foo = @bar means that @foo is an Array?
anatolyv a Scalar's ITEM method reveals the object hidden inside the scalar and returns it, while an Array's ITEM method simple returns the same Array. 18:05
Juerd: exactly.
and so, after $foo = @bar, and after @foo = @bar, the results of $foo[1] and @foo[1] will be identical.
because [1] is acting on $foo.ITEM and @foo.ITEM, really.
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Juerd But... $quux = $scalar_containing_string; will copy the string value, while $quux = $scalar_containing_array will not copy the array... 18:05
anatolyv and both are Arrays.
why wouldn't it copy the array? it's just an object, an Array, like a string is an object, a Str. 18:06
the '$' in $foo is more or less a shortcut for 'is Scalar' (as well as part of the name). 18:07
Juerd What is it copying then?
The object, but not its contents?
anatolyv that is, you can say 'my $foo is Array', and you'll get a real Array with the name $foo, which is a bit perverse, but possible.
but simple my $foo = really means my $foo is Scalar = ... 18:08
Juerd: I guess it asks the Array to clone its value, like it would ask a Str to clone its value?
Juerd I can also only guess. 18:09
anatolyv Juerd: after all, if you have my Moose $foo and my Moose $bar, and you later write $bar = $foo, you want the copy to be "by reference" and not create a new object. 18:10
Juerd: which is what will happen, as Scalar $bar will hold the same Moose as Scalar $foo did. 18:11
Juerd anatolyv: I don't know if I will want that, or if I can reasonably expect that. 18:15
This is the area that I'm still wondering about, and will probably only understand when I see how I can tell Perl to treat my object a certain way.
It's like the postfix .[], which I'd love to override, but don't know how to, simply because I've never seen how. 18:16
Is postcircumfix:<[ ]> a method, a multi sub, who knows...
anatolyv a multi sub defined for an Array being the first argument, I think. 18:17
Juerd So for your own object you'd have to export one. 18:19
I must say that Ruby's "def []" is a bit simpler :)
anatolyv but i wonder if you have a method &postcircumfix:<[ ]> in your class, taking $self: and another argument, whether that'll work too. 18:20
i can see how it can be made that it would, but i'm not up to date on MMD.
you shouldn't have to write a multi sub for your class as the first argument when you can simply write a method instead. the compiler has all the information. the parser parses [] correctly because there's a proto multi sub. 18:21
Juerd Methods can be exported as multi subs, so yes, that can work. 18:33
But I wonder if that'll work by default or not
Or if you have to indicate this
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anatolyv Juerd: because the default [] is intentionally a multi sub and not a sub, the compiler'll push the resolution of the call to runtime dispatch, and that'll find your method (unless it's "my" or something). 19:16
is perl6-language still borked? 19:17
Juerd Ah
I didn't know it was borked
anatolyv dduncan said here last night his email didn't come through... and their mx wasn't answering. 19:18
all of perl.org's, I guess.
I don't see any new messages on p5p either.
Juerd Hm, indeed it's kaputt
There are a lot of troubles with perl.org :( 19:19
DNS breakage, now MX breakage
anatolyv oh. I didn't know that.
Juerd Both protocols feature backup servers, but apparently that's not used.
Oh, it's used for DNS now
anatolyv guess it takes a failure of foo to set up foo right :) 19:20
Juerd Perhaps
gaal moosity 19:24
anatolyv indeed. 19:32
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TimToady anatolyv: $obj.method $arg is considered a syntax error of the two-terms-in-a-row variety 20:30
when the parsers sees "$obj.method +" it has to know whether to treat the + as a unary or an infix. 20:31
under current rules, this + is always infix
but the + in "$obj.method: +" is unambiguously a unary 20:32
anatolyv oh, I see.
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TimToady unlike in Perl 5, which occasionally does lookahead to determine term vs operator 20:33
Perl 6 never does so.
anatolyv TimToady: is it also true that list operators always have an argument, for the same reason?
TimToady any list operator may take 0 arguments.
anatolyv TimToady: say; is legal?
TimToady the space is only required if there is at least 1 arg
yes, that's legal. 20:34
this is also related to why "if" never starts a normal expression.
otherwise "foo if $bar" wouldn't 20:35
parse
anatolyv TimToady: so if there's a list operator, then whitespace, how is it different from the situation when there's $obj.method then whitespace? the parser also wouldn't know if what comes is a term (an argument for the list operator) or an infix.
TimToady so as with :, we require "do if" to distinguish
list operators default to looking for arguments, methods don't, because they already have one arg, which is often enough. 20:36
$obj.attr + 3 wants to treat $obj.attr as a variable, not a listop
anatolyv but isn't "looking for arguments" where arguments aren't guaranteed to be there a kind of lookahead? 20:37
TimToady well, sure, whenever I make an absolute statement it's probably wrong. :)
anatolyv there're some words in S03 about how a function predeclared with 0 arity is not considered a list operator, and I thought it was exactly for that reason - to force list operators to have arguments, so there's no lookahead. 20:38
TimToady but in a sense backtracking to a null token after seeing ; or ) doesn't count.
since no token was traversed.
anatolyv hmm.
TimToady again, it comes down to how you treat "foo +" 20:39
that's the ambiguous case. with "foo;" it doesn't matter.
anatolyv so basically, after a list operator+whitespace is a place where just about anything can come - both term-starting categories and infix, but perhaps infix is further down the list and therefore won't be matched if a prefix or a term of the same name are matched first. 20:41
TimToady that can be made to work, but perhaps there are failure modes that should simply be disallowed to avoid user confusion. 20:43
the requirement for space after a listop is somewhat arbitrary in that way. 20:44
it would be possible to allow "print$foo"
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anatolyv TimToady: what _is_ a list operator, to a parser? I mean, it's a little confusing. It's not a bona fide category like &prefix: or &term:. Comma is a list operator and an infix. Other listops look like prefixes, but now that you clarify that could always have 0 arguments, I guess they're more like... no other category :) instead. 20:44
is a list operator "comma + any predeclared sub name with whitespace after it + any provisional bareword subname with whitespace after it"? 20:46
TimToady grammatically, a list operator is functioning like a left paren without a corresponding right paren, but using precedence to terminate rather than a right paren.
the listop precedence is special in being different looking left than looking right. 20:47
anatolyv Well, you could say _that_ about any prefix operator.
TimToady yes, all prefixes are very tight looking leftward, but listops are rather loose looking rightward. 20:48
anatolyv But prefixes, in general, unlike listops, do have to have an argument, right?
or not so much right? :)
TimToady we have historically had prefix ops with optional args. 20:49
but like listops they have to default to looking for an argument in Perl 6.
$x = rand;
$x = rand 42 20:50
anatolyv isn't rand a listop here (sub name in listop form)?
rather than a prefix op?
TimToady no, rand falls into the category of "named unary"
anatolyv damn :) 20:51
TimToady and sleep, and -e, etc. 20:52
anatolyv I understand how listops function grammatically. What I don't understand is - when the parser reads a token that turns out to be a listop, how does it fit into the system of grammatical categories of S02?
I mean, that's what the categories are for - to tell the parser which categories to expect after this one. and as you just explained, after a listop we expect to see quite a lot. 20:53
but is "a listop" something the parser needs to grok, or is it just "a prefixop with this precedence, or a comma infix op with this precedence"? that's what I don't understand. 20:54
TimToady listops are just prefix: category with listop precedence
(comma is just strange)
anatolyv great!
anatolyv dances with joy.
TimToady we just lumped comma in with listop to save a precedence level, but syntactically it's more like an infix 20:55
anatolyv next question is - S03 says in one place that listops bind _looser_ than comma, but in the precedence list they're together with comma. 20:56
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anatolyv yeah, I don't see any problem with comma being a true &infix: of listop precedence! But to bind the list terms away from the listop, it has either to associate right, or to associate list, or something, not sure. 20:56
if its and listops' precedence is the same.
(it's never stated in the synposes that comma in fact 'is assoc list', Im unsure on that point) 20:57
TimToady it almost doesn't matter with comma since you just end up with a list in any event. 20:58
anatolyv I'm trying to avoid giving the comma special treatment in this parser I'm writing :) 20:59
I understand how it doesn't matter if comma is assoc right or assoc list, for the eventual list, but I'm not sure how it prevents the listop from binding with less than the whole list. 21:00
if it's not by precedence, then S03:267 should be corrected. 21:01
TimToady I'll have to think about it a bit. 21:02
anatolyv sure thing.
is it alright to bother you with more spec-related questions now? :) 21:03
TimToady I'll have to wander off now.
but feel free to @tell me
or just put them here, since I always backlog.
biab & 21:04
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anatolyv will do. 21:04
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ingy seen audreyt 21:11
jabbot ingy: audreyt was seen 14 hours 9 minutes 45 seconds ago
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