pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by diakopter on 11 July 2007.
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diakopter calls evalbot forth from the tomb... 02:38
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diakopter it replies "hey, I'm not forth" 02:38
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Aankhen`` stabs diakopter in a friendly manner. 02:44
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diakopter ouch. 02:46
well, apparently I'm not Jesus.
spinclad nor evalbot a zombie 02:48
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diakopter this Lazarus appears to have stopped to build pugs from scratch before it tries to find the tomb's egress. 02:48
(as well it should)
spinclad evalbot: this way to the egress 02:49
evalbot: 'i'm not over egre to go' 02:50
diakopter snorts 02:51
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pugs_svnbot r17176 | diakopter++ | 'cuz I like it that way. 02:57
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17176
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17176 - Pugs - Trac
bcmb_ I've got a question about one of the test scripts... 02:59
diakopter bcmb_: yes? 03:14
(sorry for the delay)
bcmb_ no problem. i'm looking at t/syntax/interpolation/strings.t 03:15
it was missing a semi-colon, so i fixed that, but the tests on line 26-27 don't run and was wondering how best to handle that?
sorry, i mean lines 36-37 03:17
diakopter bcmb_: taking a look... 03:28
bcmb_ diakopter: ok
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perlDreamer So I was saying, I've been trying to run the tests from the pugs repo on parrot. 03:31
diakopter perlDreamer: indeed.
perlDreamer and finding that parrot can easily run fractions of tests, but very few whole tests due to unsupported syntax
It doesn't sound good for the idea of using them wholesale 03:32
diakopter by "test" you mean ".t file containing one or more tests"?
perlDreamer yes, test == test file 03:33
some tests don't compile
diakopter what would you call each is(), ok()?
perlDreamer a test
It's context sensitive 03:34
diakopter ok
diakopter takes off the RFC-reading mode hat. 03:35
perlDreamer: what options do you see for helping parrot/languages/perl6 by making the test suite more incrementally runnable? 03:36
perlDreamer hm
Option 0: Don't try. Write parrot tests from scratch.
Option 1: Slice and dice the current tests. This would make for messy repositories. 03:37
diakopter msw on Option 0: I kinda like this option at first glance.
perlDreamer Option 2: Hack parrot's fetchspec script to modify the tests to suit parrot on checkout 03:38
Option 3: Import the current suite wholesale, hack out uncompilable code. Periodically, manuall resync the tests.
diakopter O0: (except, while still storing the refactored test suite in pugs' svn or whichever spot becomes agreed-upon next)
O2: blecchhh 03:39
:)
O3: blecchhh
perlDreamer 2 and 3 give you some bootstrapping
for existing tests
re your comment on O0, why would parrot specific tests be put into the pugs svn repo? 03:40
diakopter O3: manually resyncing would be a huge pain. Unless it's mostly one-way. That's quite hard to predict, contrary to (perhaps) popular belief. 03:41
why would there be parrot-specific tests?
perlDreamer well, pugs doesn't implement the e constant yet
diakopter disregarding the (difficult to trace) historical literature on the origin of the current todo marking system... what do you suggest for that? 03:42
perlDreamer I don't think parrot can do named params yet, so the current marking system is no good.
diakopter p/l/nqp can, so I assume p/l/perl6 could trivially....? 03:43
perlDreamer what is p/l/nqp?
diakopter parrot/languages/nqp 03:44
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perlDreamer perl6 still uses tge? 03:44
diakopter no, I mean it's probably a copy-and-paste possibility. 03:45
perlDreamer it's hard to write tests for possibilities, unless you're talking about junctions :)
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diakopter I wasn't suggesting writing tests for the possibility I conjectured. 03:46
I was suggesting that you or pmichaud could merge down more of nqp's functionality to perl6 03:47
perlDreamer When perl6 uses nqp, that might work.
diakopter why wouldn't it work before then?
(sorry if that's a dumb question) 03:48
perlDreamer You asked about the todo marking system. It uses named params, perl6 (parrot) doesn't do named params. You mentioned nqp (which perl6 (parrot)) doesn't use. 03:50
The questions isn't implementation, it's function.
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diakopter so, back to O0..O3. Let me be a lot more explicit about the design parameters, here. 04:12
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diakopter allison declared pugs' svn the location of the official 'Perl 6' test suite, here: use.perl.org/articles/06/12/01/2234220.shtml ... 04:15
lambdabot Title: use Perl | Perl 6 Design Meeting Notes for 29 November 2006
diakopter perlDreamer: your comment on my comment on O0 implies that you think tests that are pugs:TODO but are implemented in parrot shouldn't be in the official test suite 04:17
er, shouldn't be in other implementations' test suite
obra begs the community to try to keep a single test suite together across all implementations. 04:18
diakopter TPF's goal is a test suite that is releaseable under AL2
(which requires the contributor agreements, etc)
(another reason why I still prefer O0)
perlDreamer diakopter: only because I don't think (but haven't tried) the :todo's will compile under parrot. 04:19
aside from that, it should be no sweat
diakopter (because whoever does the refactoring can release/commit them under AL2.
)
perlDreamer Can't take someone else's code and re-release under a different license. That's bad.
even after refactoring
diakopter I guess I'm imagining a somewhat more severe refactoring than you are, then. 04:20
I think what you're imagining is closer to O1
perlDreamer there are 18000 tests in the pugs repo 04:21
diakopter sort of.
perlDreamer rewriting that from scratch, by hand, would take large amounts of time
obra I believe patrick has indicated a preference to improve the pugs versions of the tests to be useful to parrot.
diakopter many of them are redundant or generated
obra rather than to fork the test suite 04:22
diakopter obra: right; I guess I'm trying to take into account TPF's perspective. 04:23
what with the claim of copyrighting "Perl 6" on the home page.
obra I think that for now, I'd not worry about that. 04:24
we have full version history.
if there is ever a license issue and a contributor isn't comfortable making a grant of rights AND that grant of rights is necessary, the en corrective action can be taken
TPF has been working on copyrights with larry's blessing and involvement. (But TimToady can better speak to that ;) 04:26
diakopter obra: my other (related) point is that the test suite needs not only a (1) drastic reorganization [which tests are in which file, which test files are in which dirs, what the files are named, what the dirs are named] but also a (2) quite severe functionality-rejiggering [there are only two closed dependency strata, currently: pre-sanity and post-sanity], not to mention 04:29
obra ok. that sounds like a good thing 04:30
diakopter (3) integration of the "code" sections of the Synopses as tests that can be back-smart-linked to the Synopses. 04:31
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perlDreamer what if we had a branch for parrot tests in the pugs repo 04:34
diakopter so I guess my hands-thrown-up-in-surrender mindset/conclusion is to say that the organically grown test suite needs formalized, and in the process, refactored, reorganized, cross-dependency-reduced..... in order to meet the goal I stated way above (helping parrot/languages/perl6 by making the test suite more incrementally runnable)
obra perlDreamer: why a parrot branch specifically? 04:35
diakopter perlDreamer: other than not having the named parameter markers, why do they need a separate branch?
obra I suspect kp6 is going to need something similar in the near future too.
perlDreamer what parrot needs today, is pugs' test suite from a long time ago
obra (this discussion might be worth having on p6l)
perlDreamer that sounds like version control
which makes me think branch
obra perlDreamer: well, the language has evolved considerbly 04:36
diakopter what was more usable/runnable about the test suite long ago, and how long ago?
perlDreamer yes, but currently parrot can't do named params, object methods on variables, and many other things that pugs does today.
and are in the test suite
obra is it the test harness that needs these? or is it more advanced test files? 04:37
perlDreamer it's across the board
have a peek at t/builting/math/trig.t
it fails on test 2 because parrot doesn't handle unary builtins without parens yet.
the substr tests won't run because parrot only supports substr with no parens 04:38
the join tests will run with and w/o parens, but not as string methods
and all those things are interleaved through the tests
diakopter perlDreamer: for those several things you just mentioned, are there tests that test *just* those things? 04:39
perlDreamer no
that's why I suggested a branch
diakopter perlDreamer: then that's what you add to pugs' test suite: in new files.
perlDreamer or as a branch.
either would work 04:40
obra I think that new test files would have the greatist utility. And lead to the most people actually looking at, working on and running them
perlDreamer then the parrot people would have to keep a list of which test files they can run, and which they can't
obra perlDreamer: having a script that "runs all useful tests for parrot" in the pugs repo would certianly be welcoem 04:41
welcome, even
perlDreamer pmichaud has such a script, but thinking about scaling to hundreds of names isn't pleasant
obra and it might even be a good thing to start turning something like that into "test this tier of functionality"
diakopter perlDreamer: what about putting all these new files into new dirs? 04:42
obra it sounds less bad then having parrot tests out on a branch and starting to diverge. that feels like it could lead to a _lot_ of duplicated effort and diverging implementations
diakopter new dirs that start with digit-pairs, perhaps.
perlDreamer obra, how is this different from branching and merging source code? 04:43
obra also, if the tests are organized by what functionality they need in the interpreter. (or even annotated with those features), you wouldn't need to maintain a list.
diakopter perlDreamer: then the import script could import all the files in just particular dirs
perlDreamer divergence is controlled by dev's
diakopter perlDreamer: b/c pugs' svn doesn't have branches.
perlDreamer is that by policy?
diakopter and why would there need to be merging?
obra perlDreamer: the zen of pugs is not big on long-lived branches.
perlDreamer ah 04:44
well, then dirs sounds better then
obra branches are mostly used for short feature work.
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diakopter perlDreamer: why would they ever need to be merged anywhere? 04:44
obra *nod*
perlDreamer well, if someone added string methods to parrot, you could merge in those tests from the respective test files
but it sounds like a poor idea, compared to dirs 04:45
diakopter why merge? why not just move?
instead of copying
perlDreamer I'm assuming that wholesale moving wouldn't work, due to other features that may not work yet
maybe it's just nomenclature 04:46
diakopter I think I'm following
definitely don't ever duplicate individual test lines, even partially.
[particle] please take this discussion to a list. 04:47
btw there is a syntax for marking tests as todo with a comment
diakopter [particle]: backlog; discussed :{
[particle] #todo :parrot<0.4.1> (or similar)
diakopter :P
[particle] yes, i see that.
diakopter the problem is that parrot's perl6 can't parse that, according to perlDreamer 04:48
[particle] yet.
perlDreamer agreed, yet
diakopter right, obvious.
perlDreamer which list would be appropriate to move this discussion to?
[particle] once the tests are in 01-sanity, it can be a requirement for Test.pm
p6c, i think
diakopter [particle]: once which tests are in 01-sanity? 04:49
[particle] tests for anything deemed a requirement for running Test.pm
perlDreamer I need to go stand on a board, I'll watch p6c for more discussion 04:50
diakopter ah, named parameters.
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[particle] either they go in t/01-sanity or t/02-test 04:50
also, right now 01-sanity tests are not sufficient to run Test.pm
don't have 100% coverage of Test.pm features, that is. 04:51
[particle] has to run off
diakopter right, that's why there're only 2 strata, and not 3 (including the Test.pm level). 04:52
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pasteling "./pugs_r17176" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at sial.org/pbot/26554 05:06
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pasteling "./pugs_r17176" at 193.200.132.135 pasted "Pugs build failure" (6 lines, 278B) at sial.org/pbot/26556 05:12
diakopter <sigh> evalbot: grrrr 05:13
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diakopter Haskerl: we take the "ask" out of "Haskell" and "FAQ" 07:12
masak diakopter: "Hell Frequently 'ed Questions"? 07:28
diakopter er, something like that. 07:32
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agentzh PCR's emitter often generates single boolean expressions for nodes in the regex AST...i'm wondering how to add debugging code to such expressions 07:36
maybe something like "expression ^ do { print $pos; 0 }" ? 07:37
^ will never short-circuit, unlike && and
||
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agentzh for AST nodes that emit code blocks instead of single expressions, adding tracing code is staightforward :) 07:39
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diakopter heehee: www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~partain/haskerl/wall-1.html 07:40
lambdabot Title: A message about Haskerl
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masak agentzh: looks ok, but if you anticipate doing that construct a lot, consider embedding it into a well-named subroutine 07:46
agentzh masak: i've been avoiding closures or subs because it's costy... 07:47
masak agentzh: ok
agentzh masak: but there's still a problem... 07:48
masak: i can't get the result of expression in the do block
only $pos is available :(
masak: how about this? $expr && ($bool = 1) xor do { print "$bool $pos\n"; 0 }
masak eh. 07:49
well, it works
agentzh yay
masak is this code that anyone will ever read? :)
agentzh it's the code generated by the PCR emitter
i think only PCR developers will read such code
hehe
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masak agentzh: I guess if speed trumps maintainability/readability, anything goes 08:08
agentzh masak: okay, i'll wrap the code with a do block then. fighting with logical operators is no fun at all :) 08:09
masak true. good luck. :)
agentzh masak: thanks.
i think it's acceptable for PCR to slow down a bit in tracing mode...for production code, there will be no performance impact since there's only some special comments in non-tracing mode. :) 08:12
heh, PCR's emitter is already a bit hard to maintain...there's so many optimization tricks... 08:13
kp6 may make our lives easier.
masak hopefully. 08:14
agentzh :)
meppl good morning 08:17
masak meppl: morning
agentzh morning, meppl
meppl good morning masak and agentzh 08:18
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agentzh p6 grammar => p5 code with smart comments => p5 code with smart comments expanded as tracing code 09:10
does this compilation route look sane? 09:11
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agentzh hmm, ANTLR's ParseView looks interesting. 09:50
is there any good visual debugging tool that i can learn from? 09:52
supper & 09:53
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pugs_svnbot r17177 | masak++ | [Prim/Code.hs] 15:04
r17177 | masak++ | * <anon> coderefs are now treated properly
r17177 | masak++ | * I have no idea what I am doing, am not a Haskell programmer, I just play one on TV. Code review appreciated
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17177
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17177 - Pugs - Trac
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moritz_ masak++ # pugs hacking 15:23
masak thx :) haskell is alien but quite fun 15:24
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moritz_ www.google.com/trends?q=perl6%2C+pe...amp;sort=0 15:30
lambdabot Title: Google Trends: perl6, perl 6, tinyurl.com/238f73
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masak wonder what the spikes at the end of 2005/beginning of 2006 were? 15:31
something to do with releases of Pugs, probably 15:32
moritz_ or christmas and thus p6 release being near ;) 15:35
masak that must be it 15:36
diakopter SPJ's Oscon Haskell primer; I dunno if there's a video: conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/os200...sess/14016 conferences.oreillynet.com/presenta...njones.pdf 15:37
lambdabot Title: O'Reilly Open Source Convention 2007 &#8226; July 23-27, 2007 &#8226; Portland, ...
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pugs_svnbot r17178 | masak++ | [Prim/Code.hs] 15:43
r17178 | masak++ | * corrections from auto-review ;)
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17178
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17178 - Pugs - Trac
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pugs_svnbot r17179 | bcmb++ | Update smart links and correct 1 test script. 18:44
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17179
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17179 - Pugs - Trac
moritz_ bcmb++ # cage cleaning 18:46
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[particle] kennel cleaning? 18:47
moritz_ [particle]: they are all just containers ;)
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pugs_svnbot r17180 | moritz++ | kp homepage: removed bogus </a>, added fglock++ as the main author 19:11
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17180
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17180 - Pugs - Trac
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moritz_ in the html of www.pugscode.org/ there are <nobr>...</nobr> tags, which are not html 19:30
lambdabot Title: Pugs - pugscode
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thoughtpolice hi moritz_ 19:30
moritz_ any idea what they should be? span? or just nothing?
hi thoughtpolice ;)
I'll just delete those tags now 19:33
afterwards you can hit me if you want ;)
pugs_svnbot r17181 | moritz++ | pugscode.org homepage: removed bogus tags
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17181
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17181 - Pugs - Trac
moritz_ thoughtpolice: so what's up? 19:35
thoughtpolice moritz_: not a whole lot actually. i've been more busy than i figured lately so I haven't had time to blog/program much in the past couple weeks :/ 19:36
moritz_ thoughtpolice: same for me, too much $work (it's mostly perl, though ;-) 19:37
but last weekend I managed to implement fulltext search in the logs ;)
thoughtpolice good stuff. :) 19:38
i have been reading through the new erlang book (really good) and spj's old 'implementation of functional languages' 19:39
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thoughtpolice i must say spj is quite eloquent and writes/speaks very nicely. i watched the OSCON talk on transactional memory systems. 19:39
moritz_ pities himself for living so far from OSCON ;-) 19:40
thoughtpolice i watched it on blip.tv :p 19:41
moritz_ ;)
pugs_svnbot r17182 | moritz++ | kp homepage: fixed link to examples
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17182
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17182 - Pugs - Trac
diakopter thoughtpolice: I'm reading the same (SPJ 1987) 19:42
19:42 diakopter sets mode: -o diakopter
thoughtpolice diakopter: SPJ 1992 here (.pdf download from his site) 19:44
diakopter hrm
thoughtpolice research.microsoft.com/~simonpj/Pap...ster-book/ 19:45
lambdabot Title: Simon Peyton Jones: book
diakopter oh, that's the much-abridged version. 19:47
Relationship to The implementation of functional programming languages: 19:49
An earlier book by one of us, [Peyton Jones 1987], covers similar material to this one, but in a less practically oriented style. Our intention is that a student should be able to follow a course on functional-language implementations using the present book alone, without reference to the other. The scope of this book is somewhat more modest, corresponding to Parts 2 and 3 of [Peyton Jones 1987]. Part 1 of the latter, which ...
... discusses how a high-level functional language can be translated into a core language, is not covered here at all.
in other words, Part 1 of the 1987 work contains lots of explanatory background/theory that would be helpful to someone who's, say, writing a new (say, for Perl 6) frontend for GHC. 19:50
I don't mean to imply that the tutorial isn't good or anything... I'm just saying, it's different from what I'm reading (and I haven't gotten to needing a tutorial yet.. I will soon, I hope). 19:51
thoughtpolice ah. ty. :) 19:52
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moritz_ wanders off to bed & 20:02
thoughtpolice later moritz_ 20:05
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meppl good night 21:11
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pugs_svnbot r17183 | bcmb++ | Correct smart links in several test scripts 22:42
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17183
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17183 - Pugs - Trac
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perlDreamer TimToady: In S29, there are only 3 argument forms of substr defined. Does that mean that the 2 and 4 argument forms from perl5 do not exist in perl6, or that since they are unchanged they remain? 23:23
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