pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by diakopter on 11 July 2007.
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mncharity From another channel: A historian who spoke last week in SF says that every project looks like failure in midstream, even right up to before the end. (Indeed if you stopped then, you *would* fail...) so it's important to enjoy the process all the way through, if possible. 02:24
@tell fglock This went by on another channel, thought you might like it: A historian who spoke last week in SF says that every project looks like failure in midstream, even right up to before the end. (Indeed if you stopped then, you *would* fail...) so it's important to enjoy the process all the way through, if possible. 02:25
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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duzy` greeting.. 07:05
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agentzh duzy`: hi :) 07:14
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Teratogen what is to keep Perl 6 from turning into an academic language? 07:43
moritz_ good morning 07:44
Teratogen greetings and felicitations 07:45
moritz_ Teratogen: what makes you think that that's a danger?
Teratogen the direction that the language is taking
faxathisia I think Perl 6 would be suitable for teaching as well 07:46
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moritz_ Teratogen: could you elaborate a bit more? 07:46
Tene Teratogen: I'm interested in and curious about what you're referring to. 07:48
Teratogen it all started with sigil invariance, imho 07:50
very un-Perlish
Junctions seem to be an academic add-on 07:51
and why not just have a simple but powerful text macro facility, like perl -P ? 07:52
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Teratogen why did Larry include -P in the first place? 07:52
because it is powerful
moritz_ I never used it
Teratogen a textual macro preprocessor would be nice 07:53
moritz_ and I never saw/heard anybody recommending it
Teratogen then why does -P exist?
moritz_ historical reasons?
Teratogen because the C preprocessor is very powerful
ans simple
faxathisia Teratogen: I thought Junctions are pretty useful 07:54
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moritz_ I think that sigil invariance is quite perlish, because it's very intuitive for beginners 07:54
rgs perl -P has been deprecated in perl 5
Tene Teratogen: I was curious about the utility of junctions before I wrote code using them.
Now I like them.
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dlocaus @tell fglock I did not make much progress on refactoring $::Value out of MOP.pm, there is some intertwining with other classes, I wasn't sure how to handle. I will resume work on it tomorrow afternoon. 07:55
lambdabot Consider it noted.
dlocaus lambdabot++
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dlocaus moritz_: you are still up? 07:55
moritz_ dlocaus: I just got up ;)
Teratogen will Perl 6 ever replace Perl 5?
there, a simpler question. 07:56
dlocaus oh, I'm going to sleep :)
Teratogen good night
moritz_ dlocaus: I'm in Europe, it's 9AM here ;)
dlocaus: good night ;)
Teratogen it's 1 AM here but I will be up all night!
dlocaus waves
moritz_ Teratogen: I think it will, but it will take lots of time...
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moritz_ perhaps 5 to 10 years after perl 6 is released 07:56
Teratogen that's a good question
when will Perl 6 be released?
is there any rush to production? 07:57
moritz_ you see, there are still people around who use perl 5.6
even though that's _really_ old
Teratogen I still see code that has "use 5.004" in it
moritz_ omg
there's no release date
the canonical answer is "christmas"
but we don't say which christmas 07:58
Tene Parrot has some scheduled release dates, but that's for Parrot, not for Perl 6.
moritz_ and once perl 6 is released, every day is christmas ;)
Teratogen what's to keep Perl 6 from becoming just another flavor of Lisp? 07:59
moritz_ the syntax
that's one of the big differences... lisp has very cool semantics, but a clumsy syntax
Aankhen`` Teratogen: You do realize that most languages qualify as Lisps?
Teratogen you can write a Lisp pretty easily in most languages, I suppose 08:00
is that what you are saying?
moritz_ the more a language evolves, the more it feels like lisp 08:02
Teratogen not C
C has pretty much evolved
and it is definitely not Lisp
moritz_ yes, there are excpetions ;)
Teratogen and C has a helluva good macro preprocessor!
Aankhen`` moritz_: Pfft, there's nothing clumsy about it. You simply haven't seen the light yet! :-P
Teratogen: How much Perl 6 code have you written?
faxathisia no not really CPP is quite bad
moritz_ it's just text replacement
Teratogen zero lines of Perl 6
Aankhen`` <Teratogen> and C has a helluva good macro preprocessor! # LMAO.
Teratogen Aankhen what is bad about it?
moritz_ Aankhen``: aye, I haven't seen it. Feel free to enlighten me
Aankhen`` Teratogen: Ah, well, if I may, I suggest you try writing some Perl 6 and see just how "academic" it feels to you.
Teratogen ok
Aankhen`` What is bad about textual replacement of source code? Are you asking a serious question? o_O 08:03
faxathisia Teratogen: It's string and line based textual replacement.. That's does not reflect the structure of a C program
Teratogen it's still very powerful for such a simple facility
Aankhen`` moritz_: Oh, enlightenment has to be gained for yourself. ;-)
Teratogen file inclusion, macros, macros with arguments, conditional compilation
moritz_ Aankhen``: oh come on, don't be such a git ;)
Aankhen`` moritz_: Er, wha?
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Aankhen`` Teratogen: Sure, it's a reasonably powerful hack. 08:04
faxathisia Perl 6 is not going to be another lisp since it doesn't have homoiconicity
Teratogen fax, that sounds so gay 08:05
=)
faxathisia (being lisp isn't really a goal for a programming language though.. hopefully)
Teratogen has to look up that word
homowhaticity?
faxathisia Teratogen: data and code having the same structure and being able to translate between the two, roughly 08:06
Perl 6 doesn't work that way, but that's not a bad thing [if everybody looked the same..]
Teratogen ah 08:08
moritz_ IRC is such an evil time killer 08:10
Tene faxathisia: actually, I was pretty sure that it would... Perl 6 will ship with a Perl 6 grammar... 08:11
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fglock mncharity: :) 11:00
lambdabot fglock: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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pugs_svn r18853 | fglock++ | [kp6] more autovivification tests 11:12
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pugs_svn r18854 | fglock++ | [kp6] cleanup an extra 'bless' 11:22
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pugs_svn r18855 | fglock++ | [kp6] more autovivification code 12:21
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Zaba moin 13:42
moritz_ good localtime() Zaba ;)
Zaba I wonder if it is just me, or pugs isslow? I can't really try it locally because of it being so =( 13:43
and run.pugscode.org gives an error
moritz_ pugs build or pugs execution?
Zaba execution
it takes a lot of time to load into interactive mode, or to run a script, and execution itself is slow 13:44
moritz_ time ./pugs -e 'say "hi"'
real 0m0.322s
Zaba I had to uninstall it during a recent cleanup, but I still want to know
I've amd64 box btw
moritz_ it's not as fast as perl5, but generally it's not _that_ slow 13:45
moritz_ has 2 GHz (32bit) with linux and enough ram
Zaba ?eval say "hi";
moritz_, I've 768 mb ram
and it was horribly slow =/
moritz_ pugs: say "hi"
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[hiā¤]
moritz_ Zaba: that should be enough... did you build with "make soon"? 13:46
Zaba pugs: [~] <m oo se>
exp_evalbot OUTPUT["moose"ā¤]
Zaba moritz_, don't remember
wait
hmm 13:47
don't know that is
=/ 13:48
but i'd seriously want it to work at least as fast as perl5.. or even faster
moritz_, when will pugs be released as stable? somewhere Q2 2008? 13:49
moritz_ Zaba: there's no schedule 13:50
it's release when it's done
Zaba well
moritz_ currently there's very little pugs activity, due to audreyt++ being absent 13:51
but there's some kp6 hacking for example
Zaba hmm 13:52
moritz_ Zaba: but contributions are always welcome 13:54
Zaba: do you have a commit bit yet? 13:55
Zaba moritz_, no and I don't know haskell 13:57
pugs: say localtime
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** ā¤ Unexpected end of inputā¤ at /tmp/ieH8vsNbdu line 2, column 1ā¤]
Zaba pugs: say localtime()
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<obj:Time::Local>ā¤]
moritz_ Zaba: kp6 is pure perl5 + perl6
pugs: say localtime.perl
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[<obj:Time::Local>ā¤]
moritz_ dammit 13:58
Zaba kp6?
moritz_ www.pugscode.org/kp6.html
lambdabot Title: kp6 - KindaPerl6
moritz_ a perl 6 compiler written in a subset of perl 6
currently emits perl 5 or (limited) lisp
Zaba moritz_, hmm 13:59
moritz_, what's the point of it? :P
moritz_ anyway, gotta go :(
Zaba: having an implemenation 14:00
Zaba well
moritz_ -Ofun
Zaba -Ofun?
moritz_ the number of skilled haskell hackers is rather limited
Zaba Unrecognized switch: -Ofun (-h will show valid options).
moritz_ "optimized for fun"
Zaba oh I see
:D
moritz_ like gcc's -O options ;)
see ya later 14:01
Zaba cya
kolibrie Zaba: I use the perl5 stuff to compile perl6 code to perl5 so I can use it in production at work 14:02
Zaba oh 14:03
I see
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kolibrie plus, as moritz_ says, it's fun 14:06
Zaba: do you want a commit bit? 14:08
Zaba kolibrie, not sure 14:09
I don't have much to commit, I think =/
kolibrie well, look around, and just ask here if you want one - many people can give you one 14:10
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Zaba kolibrie, if I would be able to certainly say 'yes I'll write useful code'... 14:14
kolibrie Zaba: or documentation, or tests
Zaba hmm
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pugs_svn r18856 | fglock++ | [kp6] t/todo/63-autovivify.t resolved 15:13
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pugs_svn r18857 | fglock++ | [kp6] new test t/todo/65-autovivify-deep.t 15:20
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pugs_svn r18858 | fglock++ | [kp6] t/todo/14-compile-time-bind.t resolved 15:31
r18859 | fglock++ | [kp6] t/todo/62-say-in-begin.t resolved 15:34
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pugs_svn r18860 | pmurias++ | [kp6] moved say "1..1" into BEGIN 15:43
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pmurias Teratogen: perl6 macroes can also be used as textual ones 16:21
Teratogen ah 16:22
that's good
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pmurias Teratogen: regarding cpp badness #include is a hack, #define isn't lexicaly scoped 16:26
Zaba which haskell compiler do you guys use? 16:30
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pmurias pugs uses ghc 16:30
moritz_ ghc
Zaba oh.
=/
moritz_ 6.6.1 at leasts
s/s$//
Zaba yeah.
Zaba uses gentoo
last time I tried, ghc was from portage, pugs was manually in ~ 16:31
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Patterner Zaba++ 16:31
Zaba and well.. it was slow =/
Patterner (don't use the haskell overlay, lots of uncompilable packages...) 16:32
Zaba very slow.
Patterner, I don't
pugs is in portage
Available versions: (~)6.2.10 (~)6.2.11 (~)6.2.12 (~)6.2.13
I suppose it's not new
Patterner I suppose it's old :)
Zaba how much does compiling pugs take? 16:34
usually
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PerlJam Zaba: lots 16:34
Zaba PerlJam, thought so.. but about how much anyway
;-)
Patterner 20 minutes 16:35
Zaba is it lots?
moritz_ depending on your RAM, mostly 16:36
if you have ~0.5G free, it's not soo slow
if you have less, it starts swapping :/
Zaba hmm
well I got 768mb ram
and how much does ghc build? 16:37
Patterner 70 minutes for 6.8.1
Zaba gah 16:38
>_<
moritz_ well, bootstrapping compilation takes quite some time ;)
pmurias portage ghc-bin should be more upto date then it is :( 16:40
* up to
Zaba yeah
Patterner On an old 2.4GHz Athlon x86_64
Zaba still only 6.4.2
pmurias Zaba: it's 6.6 in portage here
Zaba pmurias, oh, then I need to get and update world on this weekend 16:41
moritz_ even debian is more up to date than 6.4.2 ;)
building debian packages: real 11m37.514s 16:48
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bbkr_ i followed the instructions on root/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/docs/beginners-guide.html (pugs works) but i don't have "scripts/kp6" mentioned in this document. how to build KP6?? 19:13
pugs_svn r18861 | fglock++ | [misc...Toto] implemented "xpdl" output 19:17
r18862 | fglock++ | [misc...Toto] finished last commit 19:18
fglock bbkr_: it should be in v6/v6-KindaPerl6/scripts/
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pugs_svn r18863 | fglock++ | [misc...Toto] generated diagram is more cute 19:47
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pugs_svn r18864 | fglock++ | [misc...Toto] added Perl5-ish POD 20:25
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fglock "tot2xpdl.pl" matches a source code using a Perl 6 grammar, and then emits to the target format using Template Toolkit 20:59
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