pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by diakopter on 11 July 2007.
pugs_svn r18946 | dlo++ | [kp6] the lightbulb effect 00:00
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moritz_ t/todo/39-junction.t passes here 06:56
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dlocaus moritz_: yes, it passes, but I don't think that's how fglock wanted it done 07:18
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needhelp Hi! I need your help. Iam collecting points in page listed below. If you be so kind, please click url below.(sorry for the spam, thank you) www.3dwhite.lt/?click=56a3cdcf22ccc...4d2bc900ff 08:48
lambdabot Title: 3D White
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moritz_ I hate spammers... especially if they know they are spamming 09:35
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masak moritz_: is there any way to keep them out? 09:43
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moritz_ masak: not really. I delete the links from the logs, but that's all 09:54
the alternatives are too unfriendly, like making the channel invite-only
masak true 09:56
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pugs_svn r18947 | fglock++ | [kp6] implemented list interpolation in parameter-list 14:15
wolverian nice!
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moritz_ kp6: sub foo($a, $b) { say "$b | $a" }; my @a = (2, 3); foo(@a); 14:18
exp_evalbot r18946: OUTPUT[ | 2 3ā¤]
moritz_ tinita: defaultinstallation oder so, freigeist.org/battie/ 14:19
lambdabot Title: my c00l website - content
moritz_ sorry, wrong channel
kp6: sub foo($a, $b) { say "$b | $a" }; my @a = (2, 3); foo(@a);
exp_evalbot r18947: OUTPUT[3 | 2ā¤]
moritz_ YaY, fglock++
fglock it's not ready yet :P 14:20
moritz_ but the simple example worked 14:21
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pugs_svn r18948 | moritz++ | [kp6] simple test for list interpolation into parameter lists 14:31
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fglock pugs: my $x := (2,(4,5)); say $x.perl 14:37
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[\2ā¤] 14:38
fglock pugs: my $x = (2,(4,5)); say $x.perl
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[[2, 4, 5]ā¤]
fglock what's the difference?
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moritz_ uhm 14:39
dunno, really
pmurias S06:888 14:40
moritz_: you added a test for wrong behaviour
moritz_ pmurias: yes, I just noticed
pugs_svn r18949 | moritz++ | [kp6] corrected previous test 14:41
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moritz_ pmurias++ 14:42
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pmurias ;) 14:42
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moritz_ now we need eval() to test the wrong behaviour 14:45
pmurias moritz_: isn't it a runtime error? 14:49
i would guess we need CATCH 14:50
moritz_ pmurias: I don't think so, because it can be checked at compile time
pmurias only in this specific case 14:52
moritz_ why? 14:53
pmurias "&foo := bar()" would make it a runtime error
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moritz_ right 14:53
but it's the "normal" case
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moritz_ I think a runtime error is a good start, but I'd prefer static checking at compile time wherever possible 14:55
pmurias who wouldn't ;)
moritz_ matlab programmers, sadly
pmurias never met any, or wrote any matlab 14:56
moritz_ lucky man ;) 14:59
fglock which spec defines the behaviour of @a vs $a ? 15:01
moritz_ fglock: in which context?
fglock moritz_: I'm worried with my $x := (2,(4,5)); 15:05
moritz_ TimToady: ping 15:07
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pmurias S02: 1153 15:12
moritz_: what is the matlab's users rationale for wanting the errors at runtime? 15:15
fglock pmurias: thanks
moritz_ pmurias: habit, I guess
fglock but I didn't find my answer yet
moritz_ pmurias: I always hated it 15:16
pmurias fglock: "C<$x> may be bound to any object..." 15:17
fglock pmurias: why does my $x := 2 creates a Capture? 15:20
assuming pugs is correct
pugs: my $x = 2; say $x.perl 15:21
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[\2ā¤]
fglock it may even be a .perl bug 15:22
moritz_ fglock: most .perl expressions generate a capture in pugs
pmurias it's something like :($x) := \(2)
$x shouldn't be a capture
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moritz_ pugs: say \2 ~~ Capture 15:24
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[ā¤]
fglock pugs: my $x := (3,4,5); say $x.perl # why doesn't $x bind to the list? 15:29
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[\3ā¤]
moritz_ I think it propagates scalar context to the RHS 15:30
fglock the reason kp6 gets confused is because i am confused :P
moritz_ I'd expect it to "upgrade" the list to an array ref instead 15:31
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moritz_ pugs: my $x = (2, 3, 4); say $x; 15:32
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[2 3 4ā¤]
moritz_ just like assignment does
could it be that lists only degenerate to .elems in numerical context, and in other scalar context it's changed to a capture? 15:33
pmurias moritz_: i think bind is supposed to be unmagical
pugs: 2.perl 15:34
exp_evalbot OUTPUT["2"ā¤]
pmurias pugs: say 2.perl
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[2ā¤]
fglock hmm - i think the explanation is:
pmurias pugs: my $x := 2;say $x.perl
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[\2ā¤]
fglock bind is compiled as: ($x) := (1,2,3)
pmurias pugs: my ($x) := (9,10,11);say $x.perl 15:37
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[\9ā¤]
pmurias fglock: i agree 15:38
fglock but why is assignment different?
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pmurias pugs: my ($x) = (9,10,11);say $x.perl 15:38
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[\9ā¤]
pmurias pugs: my ($x) = (9,10,11);$x++;say $x; 15:39
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[10ā¤]
pmurias pugs: my ($x) := (9,10,11);$x++;say $x;
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Can't modify constant item: VInt 9ā¤ at /tmp/JVCUj783sW line 1, column 22-26ā¤]
fglock pugs: my $x := (3,4,5); say $x.perl; # not an implicit ($x) ? 15:40
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[\3ā¤]
fglock pugs: my $x = (3,4,5); say $x.perl; # not an implicit ($x) ?
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[[3, 4, 5]ā¤]
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fglock i mean, the second one 15:40
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fglock why is assignment different from binding 15:41
pmurias fglock: don't know (you could look at STD, it might be a syntax issue) 15:43
fglock i've got the spec now - i just don't know why :)
pmurias $x := (3,4,5) is a special case of :($x) := \(3,4,5) 15:48
fglock in this case, isn't it a runtime error that not all parameters get bind? 15:50
pmurias it could be
fglock pugs: my $x; :($x) := \(3,4,5); say $x 15:51
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Cannot bind this as lhs: Val (VV :($x))ā¤ at /tmp/eHa7lVDwQO line 1, column 8-25ā¤]
fglock ?
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moritz_ kp6: say "test" 15:53
exp_evalbot r18949: OUTPUT[testā¤]
Tene kp6: say "moritz_"
exp_evalbot r18949: OUTPUT[moritz_ā¤]
moritz_ my irssi or screen just mixed a "core dumped" line into this window 15:54
so I thought mybe evalbot died
Tene Ahh.
moritz_ it was a leftover from #p5p, though
pmurias pugs: my $x; :($x) := (3,4,5); say $x 15:59
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Cannot bind this as lhs: Val (VV :($x))ā¤ at /tmp/gHHxojs7Tv line 1, column 8-24ā¤]
TimToady kp6: sub foo($a, $b) { say "$b | $a" }; my @a = (2, 3); foo(@a);
exp_evalbot r18949: OUTPUT[3 | 2ā¤]
TimToady that is incorrect
pmurias the test is fixed
TimToady it should attempt to bind @a to $a, and fail when there's nothing left to bind to $b
moritz_ ... but not the implementation
TimToady *nod* 16:00
moritz_ pugs: my $x := <a b>; say $x.perl
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[\"a"ā¤]
moritz_ pugs: my $x := (7,8); say $x.perl
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[\7ā¤]
TimToady the difference between := and = is that = always applies either item or list context to the right side, whereas := never does
moritz_ TimToady: is that correct behaviour? 16:01
TimToady no, it's not
if you pass (7,8) as a scalar argument to a function, you expect it to turn into [7,8] 16:02
moritz_ ok
TimToady parens get autoflattened only in list context
and binding doesn't commit to that until you see what you're binding to
fglock isn't passing (7,8) to a function that expects ($x) an error? 16:04
TimToady not if the parens are around a single argument
foo((7,8)) should work fine 16:05
that's what is equiv to $a := (7,8)
moritz_ pugs: say elems: (3,4)
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No compatible multi variant found: "&elems"ā¤ at /tmp/5VI6XrzY3W line 1, column 5-10ā¤]
moritz_ pugs: say elems: [3,4]
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** No compatible multi variant found: "&elems"ā¤ at /tmp/1kOBXuUGnI line 1, column 5-10ā¤]
TimToady you can't use : there 16:06
fglock got it - there is a lot of fixing to do
moritz_ pugs: say elems [3,4]: # that's what I meant
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[2ā¤]
moritz_ and it works with (3,4) as well 16:07
TimToady indeed, the invocant slot is item context
the only reason 3,4.elems doesn't work is precedence
moritz_ we need Acme::MagicDisambiguation for that ;) 16:08
fglock after $a := (7,8) - should $a.perl return "(7,8)" instead of "[7,8]" ? 16:09
moritz_ I don't think so 16:10
TimToady I don't think the Capture notion has to survive binding, so I'd expect [7,8]
fglock because (7,8) is a List object
hmm 16:11
TimToady if you bind to |$a, that's explicitly asking to preserve capture info
(though you get the whole arglist capture that way)
mostly captures are supposed to be invisible to normal folks 16:12
a capture represents an argument list that we don't know the item/list context of yet
fglock does $a := (7,8) store a read-only Array ?
TimToady arguably that's the right thing for parameter binding, which is readonly anyway 16:13
but in explicit binding to a rw variable, I can argue it both ways
it's probably okay to leave it readonly for now, since they can always use explicit [] to get the other 16:14
and there's likely some benefit to knowing something is readonly 16:15
benefit to the optimizer, that is
on the other hand, I'd hate to see a lot of $a := new Array: 7,8,whatever() 16:17
but maybe that mostly becomes $a <== 7,8,whatever() in any cse 16:18
*case
so probably the conservative thing is to leave $a := (7,8) readonly on the assumption it's useful and also easy to get around 16:21
fglock ok
TimToady it's a bit un-Perl5-like though
amnesiac oi guys, btw, what happened to audreyt? 16:22
TimToady liver problems requiring low stress lifestyle
amnesiac ah 16:23
yeah I'm pretty sure of that
PerlJam "low stress"? Is that even possible for audrey?
amnesiac for anyone, you just have to stay out of IRC :)
PerlJam amnesiac: frenetic people seem to be in a state of perpetual stress. 16:26
fglock stares at Container.pm 16:35
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pugs_svn r18950 | rhr++ | [evalbot] [untested] use RESULT[] instead of OUTPUT[] when .perl.say is used 16:41
pmurias thinks rhr is a brave soul (to commit untested changes to the evalbot ;) 16:43
Aankhen`` LOL. 16:44
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rhr kp6: 1 16:49
exp_evalbot r18950: OUTPUT[1ā¤]
Aankhen`` Won't it need to be restarted? 16:50
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rhr I dunno, I don't run the bot :) 16:50
Aankhen`` Heh.
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pugs_svn r18951 | fglock++ | [kp6] "@a = [1,2,3]" does the right thing, but "@a = @b" now fails 17:14
fglock I don't get how is [1,2,3] different from @b in an assignment?
is it because @b is a container? 17:15
moritz_ kp6: my @a = [1, 2, 3]; say @a.elems
exp_evalbot r18951: OUTPUT[1ā¤]
moritz_ kp6: my @a = [1, 2, 3]; @b = @a; say(@b.perl) 17:16
exp_evalbot r18951: OUTPUT[[ [ 1, 2, 3 ] ]ā¤]
moritz_ kp6: my @a = [1, 2, 3]; @b = @a; say(@b.join('|'))
exp_evalbot r18951: OUTPUT[1 2 3ā¤]
moritz_ kp6: my @a = 1, 2, 3; @b = @a; say(@b.join('|'))
exp_evalbot r18951: OUTPUT[syntax error at position 9, line 1 column 9:ā¤my @a = 1, 2, 3; @b = @a; say(@b.join('|')ā¤ ^ HEREā¤]
moritz_ kp6: my @a = (1, 2, 3); @b = @a; say(@b.join('|'))
exp_evalbot r18951: OUTPUT[1|2|3ā¤]
moritz_ that looks right in both cases 17:17
fglock kp6: my @b = (1,2,3); my @a=@b; say @a.perl
exp_evalbot r18951: OUTPUT[[ [ 1, 2, 3 ] ]ā¤]
fglock fixing
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dlocaus hello 17:25
moritz_ hi 17:26
pugs_svn r18952 | fglock++ | [kp6] several array assignment cases are covered, but t/kp6/44-map.t fails 17:27
fglock i don't understand how an assignment from @x.map(...) is a different case of an assignment from [1,2,3] 17:29
maybe @b and @x.map() return a List object
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fglock but that would be weird, at least in the @b case 17:30
perhaps my concept of List is wrong 17:31
moritz_ I think @x.map() should return a list 17:32
because you can't (@x.map())[$index] = 3
so it's gotta be read-only
fglock actually, you can - if map returns lvalue 17:33
moritz_ ok, but can you .shift and the like?
fglock i think Array is a special case
moritz_ pugs: say (map({ $_**2 }, <1 4 5>)).shift 17:34
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[*** Can't modify constant item: VUndefā¤ at /tmp/bIZmT8DHX7 line 1, column 5 - line 2, column 1ā¤]
fglock when a List is either inside a @a variable, or an anonymous Array container
moritz_ that's what I meant: the thing returnd by map is a read-only container
fglock ok - gotta recode that
brb 17:39
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[particle] oh, right, it's wednesday 17:51
i was in LA yesterday 17:52
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[particle] ww 17:53
obra hey particle 17:54
pugs_svn r18953 | dlo++ | [kp6] minor documentation fix 18:05
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pugs_svn r18954 | dlo++ | [kp6] explaination of how the infix_58_... and so on is built 18:11
nnunley Hey obra. 18:19
[particle] hi there obra 18:20
obra hey guys. 18:21
clkao nnunley: you are alive!
obra nnunley: sounds like I narrowly missed you in sf a couple weeks back
nnunley obra & clkao: It looks like.
obra: I'm probably going to be in Boston Jan 12. 18:22
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nnunley clkao: :) 18:22
obra nnunley: shit. I'm likely to be in sf for a wedding
[particle] maybe you can trade apartments for the weekend... 18:23
nnunley I'll be in sf the week after.
Err, Actually, I'll be in sf on the 13th.
clkao you are just avoiding each other
nnunley grins at particle.
Could be.
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nnunley clkao: Where are you these days? 18:25
Hrm. wait. I'm coming back from sf on the 11th, so I'm just confused. 18:26
clkao taiwan
Tene I want to go to sf again.
pugs_svn r18955 | dlo++ | [kp6] I think I accidently removed some code, reverting out 18:27
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nnunley clkao: Any likelyhood of you being in the states in the near future? 18:29
obra yeah, clkao. .us hackathon? 18:31
.oo { .mx hackathon }
clkao currently no plan, but we can scsomething 18:33
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nnunley .mx would be fun. 18:34
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pugs_svn r18956 | dlo++ | [kp6] Documented and cleaned up this file 19:05
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pugs_svn r18957 | fglock++ | [kp6] anonymous array is a Container 19:19
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moritz_ kp6: 5 19:21
exp_evalbot r18957: RESULT[5ā¤]
moritz_ YaY, rhr++ 19:22
dlocaus kp6: 1/0
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dlocaus I didn't do that... the dog did it. 19:23
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dlocaus btw, I put in a fix into Global for that, it will now die if you attempt to divide by zero. 19:24
moritz_ that's bad... why does evalbot die with segfault when the kp6 process is forked off first?
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moritz_ kp6: say "back" 19:24
exp_evalbot r18957: OUTPUT[backā¤]
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dlocaus goes back to looking at signatures. 19:25
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pugs_svn r18958 | fglock++ | [kp6] reverted last commit 19:30
fglock & 19:31
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dlocaus moritz_: I was checking out dev.pugscode.org/browser/v6/v6-Kind...l5.pm#L522 20:01
lambdabot tinyurl.com/yv836k
dlocaus And it occurred to me that
"'do { if (::DISPATCH(::DISPATCH(' ~ $.cond.emit_perl5 ~ ',"true"),"p5landish") ) '"
should really be
"'do { if (::DISPATCH(::DISPATCH(' ~ $.cond.emit_perl5 ~ ',"true"),"true") ) '"
is this correct?
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pmurias dlocaus: no 20:18
dlocaus why not?
pmurias true returns a kp6 object
and p5landish returns a perl5 value 20:19
moritz_ dlocaus: I think you overestimate my kp6 knowledge :/
dlocaus :)
but what about a Junction?
I was attempting to try this 20:20
if ( 1 == any() ) {
say "true";
} else {
say "false";
}
but Junction cannot be rendered into a p5landish "verb"
pmurias 1 == any() => False => perl5 0 20:21
dlocaus that's not what the code says
my bad 20:22
the code does say that
I think I ment to try out this 20:23
if ( 1 == all() ) { say "true" } else { say "false" };
dev.pugscode.org/browser/v6/v6-Kind...ion.pm#L41
lambdabot tinyurl.com/yt29k8
dlocaus if there are no items in things, then it returns true
TimToady pugs: if ( 1 == all() ) { say "true" } else { say "false" }; 20:24
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[trueā¤]
TimToady pugs: if ( 1 == any() ) { say "true" } else { say "false" };
exp_evalbot OUTPUT[falseā¤]
pmurias kp6: if ( 1 == any() ) { say "true" } else { say "false" };
exp_evalbot r18958: OUTPUT[no method 'p5landish' in Class 'Junction'ā¤ at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 345ā¤ KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl5::MOP::__ANON__('HASH(0x87942b0)', 'p5landish') called at compiled/perl5-kp6-mp6/lib/KindaPerl6/Runtime/Perl5/MOP.pm line 169ā¤
..main::DISPATCH('HASH(0x87942b0)', 'p5landish') called at - line 18ā¤]
TimToady cool 20:25
pmurias the kp6 answer isn't cool at all
dlocaus well, that is why I was hunting it down... :) 20:26
but how can 1 == all() be true?
TimToady because there are no elements that falsify it
dlocaus brain crashes. 20:27
What?
pmurias it makes sense if you understand it in terms of sets
dlocaus brb, going to the garage to get my college math books 20:28
TimToady my $status = 1; for @elems -> $elem { $status = 0 unless true $elem }; # basic short-circuit "and" 20:29
well, except with a loop exit
for @elems -> $elem { return False unless true $elem }; return True; # basic short-circuit "and" 20:30
moritz_ (set theory)++
dlocaus perl6-- 20:33
making me get my old math books!
moritz_ what's bad about it?
pmurias has his math book <3 meters from his computer
* books 20:34
dlocaus 1 = all(undef) is true!
20:34 nipotan is now known as nipotaway
moritz_ no 20:34
1 = all() is true
undef != empty set 20:35
TimToady note that all()/any() are also spelled [&]/[|] with defaults defined the same way
actually, you can't assign to 1 :P
moritz_ 1 == all() # of course
dlocaus all() !== all(undef)?
pmurias dlocaus: i makes perfect sense if you think in terms of regulation instead of real world objects 20:36
moritz_ dlocaus: the list (undef) holds one element, the list () holds none
pmurias all() == everything
moritz_ a mathematician would express $a == all(X) as 'For all $x in X: $a == $x' 20:37
and an empty set always satisfies a "for all" condition 20:38
because "for all" is just "not (exists ... (not ... ) )"
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dlocaus I haven't had use set theory in like 15 years.. this hurts 20:38
TimToady and likewise, "any" is never satisfied by the empty set 20:39
moritz_ hears a course on "automaton theory and formal languages", quite interesting
pmurias moritz_: right now? 20:40
dlocaus I'll make a note to -review set theory tonight...
justatheory sets
moritz_ I didn't know you could build automatons for regular languages that accept input both on the left and on the right hand side ;)
20:40 jisom left
dlocaus Which is really bad, because I just started otn "Stalin: The court of the red Tsar", which turning out to be a pretty facinating read. 20:41
moritz_ pmurias: no, the last course was 12 hours ago ;)
pmurias ok
moritz_ it's the best course this term
and one of the hardest, I might have to add 20:42
20:42 Lorn left
pmurias has to look into his copy of "Introduction to Automata Theory, Languages, and Computation" 20:42
moritz_: i thought you were studing physics?
dlocaus pmurias: so how would I go about making Junction handle p5landish? or is it, I need to make == do a special operation for Junction? 20:44
One of my hardest/funest courses was "politics" 20:45
All papers, 500 words OR LESS. :)
moritz_ pmurias: yes, I should ;) but I have to take a second subject, to lesser extend 20:46
TimToady dlocaus: maybe you should look at how Quantum::Superpositions does it. 20:47
dlocaus back in a bit, I have to move my car (street cleaning :)
TimToady or maybe Damian put a Perl6::Junctions out there too...
dlocaus peeeking 20:48
TimToady pity that street cleaners aren't smart enough to wash your car en passant...
dlocaus pity the street cleaners aren't smart enough to wash the street. 20:49
After they run by, its like... "huh guys? you didn't clean anything"
TimToady must be a union shop... 20:50
dlocaus oh cool
yep that's my home town. very pro union...
TimToady maybe we should advertise that we want to unionize the pythonistas. that'd do 'em in... 20:51
"if you want me to indent that, you'll have to pay me more" 20:52
though, gee, I wouldn't mind getting paid for whitespace...
dlocaus back to do performance by KLOC? :) 20:53
/do/doing/
TimToady #comments
#are
#us
dlocaus fglock? 20:54
fglock ping?
whew, I think I've blown my brains for this morning. I'm going to eat lunch before I go completely cross eyed. 20:55
pmurias dlocaus: p5landish shouldn't be required for if 21:00
21:11 thoughtpolice joined
pmurias dlocaus: (hint) methods in kp6 are $::Code, they authothread on their invocant (it's a bug) so $junction.true is still a Junction (it should be a Bit) 21:14
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