»ö« | perl6.org/ | nopaste: paste.lisp.org/new/perl6 | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, alpha:, pugs:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend!
Set by lichtkind on 5 March 2010.
jnthn ooh, that works. :-) 00:01
diakopter++
TimToady sorear: one optimization that STD does there is to not rebuild LTM tables that didn't change from the parent
sjohnson no alt+\d for me :/ 00:04
ctrl works hto
tho*
sorear phenny: tell diakopter : I am conflicted for both #parrotsketch and #rakudosketch. Permanently. Every week. 00:07
phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when diakopter is around.
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diakopter sorear: oh 00:11
phenny diakopter: 00:07Z <sorear> tell diakopter : I am conflicted for both #parrotsketch and #rakudosketch. Permanently. Every week.
spinclad that's worth making a search for a better time (yet again) (having no idea if there is a better time all around) 00:16
sjohnson heh 00:19
spinclad (i can be pretty sure there's no _good_ time all around) 00:23
Tene #rs is new to me. 00:24
sorear actually, not quite permanently; #ps and #rs fall in prime classes time in this timezone 00:26
so when I leave school I'll probably be free :D
and I can always backlog.
also, RT never processed my reply.
so pmichaud presumably never saw my reply. 00:27
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sorear I sent it out seven hours ago to the Reply-To on RT's return mail 00:28
and ... nothing.
we rely on RT so much, why aren't the BP team lurking here?
diakopter obra: OUBG 00:29
ping, I mean
spinclad (cryptographer deduces QWERTY keyboard) 00:30
obra yes?
diakopter something about RT
obra rt.perl.org...is not ours.
diakopter forgot (again) 00:31
sorear phenny: tell pmichaud : RT ate my followup, so here - pastie.org/956317
phenny sorear: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
obra they have, among other things, heavy spamfiltering
sorear obra: Did I send that message to the right address?
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diakopter you proably have to retain all the other header fields, like thread id in-reply-to and such 00:32
sorear Does RT have a manual?
Trying to guess how it works is very disconcerting
diakopter: I did a full reply
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obra just seind a reply is what you want to do 00:34
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sorear obra: Did that seven hours ago, it hasn't appeared on the ticket yet 00:39
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obra sorear: the spamfiltering involves quarentine and manual review 00:41
sorear Ah.
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ruoso just sent an email about the "object-belongs-to-thread" idea 00:44
ruoso hopes to kick-start a more consistent discussion on the threading model... 00:45
spinclad phenny: tell pmichaud i see a race possibility still between when !A1 sets &B's outer_ctx to !A1, (suspends), !A2 does the same, (suspends), !A1 clones &B : #B1 -> !A2 (oops) and later !B1 likewise. 00:46
phenny spinclad: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
lue hello! 00:48
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spinclad hellue! 00:48
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spinclad phenny: tell pmichaud i don't see a coherent meaning to embedded our's, but what meaning i do see seems to include an ordinary rvalue (at an incoherent time). 00:51
phenny spinclad: I'll pass that on when pmichaud is around.
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lue alpha: my @a=(1,2,3,4); @a[3] := @a[0]; @a[9] = 3; say @a[0] 00:58
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«rtype not set␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
lue why didn't that work? 01:00
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sorear because it's alpha? 01:04
lue would it work though? (checking)
std: my @a=(1,2,3,4); @a[3] := @a[0]; @a[9] = 3; say @a[0] 01:05
p6eval std 30618: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 113m␤»
sorear it should work, yes
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sorear hello plobsing 01:06
Switched to branch 'topic/binding' 01:07
let's see.
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sorear I think the left hand side of := should *always* be a signature 01:25
not sure how that interacts with one-pass parsing though.
lue would have to look up what a signature is, then. 01:30
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sorear lue: the stuff you put between () in sub definitions 01:39
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lue oh. 01:42
so anything I were to stuff in, say, sin(), becomes a signature (assuming no errors pop up)? 01:43
afk 01:48
sorear no 01:53
anything you were to stuff in sub foo (#`( SIGNATURE GOES HERE )) { ... } 01:54
when you call, you pass a Capture
which is the opposite of a signature
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pmichaud ESTILLNOFEATHER? 02:01
phenny pmichaud: 00:31Z <sorear> tell pmichaud : RT ate my followup, so here - pastie.org/956317
pmichaud: 00:46Z <spinclad> tell pmichaud i see a race possibility still between when !A1 sets &B's outer_ctx to !A1, (suspends), !A2 does the same, (suspends), !A1 clones &B : #B1 -> !A2 (oops) and later !B1 likewise.
pmichaud: 00:51Z <spinclad> tell pmichaud i don't see a coherent meaning to embedded our's, but what meaning i do see seems to include an ordinary rvalue (at an incoherent time).
sorear Actually, S03 already specs the LHS of := as being a signature 02:05
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pmichaud ...it does?! 02:05
sorear S03:1519
pmichaud alas, I don't have a current copy of S03, and feather is down :-( 02:06
.oO( about now is when I wish such things were stored in git instead of svn )
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pmichaud sorear: short answer to your reply (since I seem to be having internet problems) -- #1: instead of cloning !UNIT_START, it can be sensitive to a contextual. #3: no, I don't think this logic belongs in PAST::Compiler -- I think it should go in HLL::Compiler. But ultimately I think the generated PAST should remain the same and then we wrap it appropriately in REPL context. 02:09
(as opposed to changing it altogether in REPL context) 02:10
afk again (sorry) 02:11
sorear Perhaps part of the problem is that my PAST-enlightenment is incomplete. 02:14
I see PAST as a tree-structure, highly abstracted PIR
You seem to see it as something deeper
pmichaud actually, PAST is abstracted HLL
POST is abstracted PIR
sorear Language-independant processing of PAST to add autoprints is unthinkable to me
pmichaud I don't think the PAST should have to be processed.
I think the autoprinting should be wrapped around it. 02:15
sorear wrapped... around it?
pmichaud sure, you're just printing (or not printing) the return value that comes back.
sorear HLL::Compiler doesn't compile statments, though; it compiles lines 02:16
printing lines feels wrong to me
pmichaud it compiles code.
it doesn't know about "lines"
sorear 'interactive' knows about lines
pmichaud right, 'interactive' is what needs to be fixed. 02:17
sorear how would you fix it?
pmichaud so that it can do autoprinting of the result
basically it compiles the code, executes it, then autoprints the result
TimToady hmm, I would read that example as saying that you can have a signature on the left, not that you must. But I can see how you'd read it the other way... 02:18
pmichaud please tell me that it's "can" and not "must" :-)
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TimToady "can" is the intention 02:18
pmichaud ty
sorear It doesn't really make sense to have anything other than a "signature" on the left 02:19
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TimToady though other forms may well need a macroish 'make bvalue' action at compile time 02:19
pmichaud $a := $b # makes perfect sense
sorear since "signatures" are the only Perl 6 concept that can be bvalueish
$a is a signature
my $a; # this is specced to parse $a as a signature
TimToady yes, but lvalues in general aren't quite bvalues 02:20
so $a := $b really turns into something like 'VAR($a) := $b', or however we get the un-indirection 02:21
sorear part of me wants to call VAR a multi macro 02:22
TimToady this is more apparent with $x[42] := $b; somehow the array has to bind its native pointer to scalar, presuming it has a compact array of native pointers somewhere inside
and if it doesn't, then the binding fails, as with a compact array of int 02:23
sorear TimToady: please go on 02:24
TimToady so as with exists and delete, it's really a modifier on the subscripting operation to return something more primitive than usual
the reason, btw, for the current :exists and :delete adverbs is related
the problem is that we haven't specced what a subscript really turns into as an object 02:25
a Slicel or some such
but when you have @foo[42]:delete
it's easy enough to grok it as the same as @foo.delete(42)
but what about slices and multidims?
what does @foo[42,43;@x]:delete desugar to? 02:26
we probably need a special form for passing a subscript as an argument
sorear could do "delete" as a setting macro pretty easily, rewriting itself into the adverb form 02:27
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TimToady then we could say it desugars to @foo.delete(:subscript[42,43;@x]) or some such 02:27
anyway, in all these delete/exists/bvalue cases, it's an instruction to the @foo to not actually follow the subscript to the end 02:28
sorear I'll need to think about what sort of thing VAR / :bvalue returns
TimToady so maybe there's a primitive @foo.bvalue(:subscript[]) form
sorear pmichaud: Back to interactive; can you explain in more detail what you want the 'interactive' to do on 2+2; 3+3, and how it works? 02:29
TimToady and in a sense, .delete is just .bvalue = Nil
except delete returns the old value
sorear pmichaud: !UNIT_START looking at contextuals feels wrong; the lexical parent of a module is a lexical thing, not a dynamical thing 02:30
TimToady: Unifying signatures and bvalues feels right to me. If anything you could apply VAR() to is valid in a signature, then we get multi binding $x[1], $x[0] := $x[0], $x[1] for free 02:32
TimToady it'd be a bit strange to allow @x[42] in a signature though 02:33
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TimToady よし！ I think I've implemented circumfixes in STD, finally...testing 02:46
sorear std: (2) 02:47
p6eval std 30618: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 112m␤»
sorear ?
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sorear huh. 03:07
mutablevar.pmc appears to be entirely dead code in rakudo
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diakopter very glad others are figuring out details of semantics 03:16
not my forte. 03:17
sorear Why does rakudo support ObjectRef and Perl6Scalar pointing to other ObjectRef values? 03:20
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sorear I'm lost. What's the purpose of having ObjectRef at all? 03:26
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BrowserUk ? 04:02
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sorear ! 04:03
04:03 gfx joined
sorear or is that ¿ 04:03
JimmyZ \o I can't make spectest 04:06
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sorear std: sub infix:<¢>($a,$b) { ... }; 2 ¢ 3 04:25
p6eval std 30618: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 115m␤»
sorear std: { sub infix:<¢>($a,$b) { ... }; }; 2 ¢ 3
p6eval std 30618: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at /tmp/gDzAX4LEVA line 1:␤------> { sub infix:<¢>($a,$b) { ... }; }; 2 ⏏¢ 3␤ expecting any of:␤ bracketed infix␤ infix or meta-infix␤ statement modifier loop␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 112m␤»
sorear TimToady: Where is operator overloading implemented in STD? 04:26
TimToady Cursor.pmc add_macro
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TimToady doesn't do anything with is parsed yet 04:28
sorear is parsed works with operator overloading ?! 04:29
how does the match object get into the sub?
TimToady well, it will by the time add_macro actually adds macros :) 04:30
sorear (hmm. Cursor's implementation is... completely unsuitable for Rakudo ;))
TimToady I guess you'd need a ponie...
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sorear Where does the actual language switchover happen? 04:33
TimToady it's really just add_operator currently
sec
sorear add_macro creates a new $~MAIN, but $¢ is still on the old $~MAIN
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TimToady cursor_fresh is what actually does the swap 04:35
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sorear cursor_fresh only looks like it makes a new cursor 04:36
TimToady the optional argument specifies language to switch to
ash__ with closures, when a capture happens, does it capture the world or just values it knows to capture? for instance, if you had an eval (so you don't know what value your closure is referencing) does it freeze the world? or would that not work right? sub foo($a) { my $b = $a + 1; return -> ($c) { eval "$c + $b" }; }; my $d = foo(1); say $d(2); I think demonstrates what I mean. From lexically analysis of the closure you couldn't tell 04:37
phenny ash__: 11 May 23:20Z <spinclad> tell ash__ i can argue that whenever you use a function you use it as a rvalue, so create a closure.
ash__ it would need to capture, so it seems to capture the world, that seems expensive...
phenny ash__: 11 May 23:26Z <spinclad> tell ash__ (even if thrown away in sink context) ... but pmichaud seemed to have a different point of view on #rs.
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sorear TimToady: how does the main rule engine know to do $¢ = %*LANG<MAIN>? 04:37
ash__ my lexical scope in nq-nqp is broken it seems, its almost right... but not exactly... i think i see the right way of doing things, you do need to freeze the world when you make a capture 04:38
TimToady STD.pm6:1468
ash__ sorry, ignore me, i am kinda thinking by typing 04:39
sorear <!!{ $*LASTSTATE = $¢.pos; $¢ = %*LANG<MAIN>.bless($¢); }>
?
(that's 1465 for me. (feather being down)--)
TimToady ah right, my last checkin failed 04:40
sorear what does <!! mean?
double negation? 04:41
TimToady same as ?, but don't count as LTM
sorear nods
std: (my sub infix:<¢>($x, $y) {...}).(2 ¢ 3, 4 ¢ 5) 04:42
p6eval std 30618: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse argument list at /tmp/L3x9CpKowT line 1:␤------> (my sub infix:<¢>($x, $y) {...}).(⏏2 ¢ 3, 4 ¢ 5)␤Couldn't find final ')'; gave up at /tmp/L3x9CpKowT line 1:␤------> (my sub infix:<¢>($x, $y) {...}).(2
..⏏[3…
TimToady looks like a buglet 04:44
it knows to switch languages in the {...}, but outside that not till after the current statement
sorear that was actually a test of my understanding as much as anything else 04:45
partly motivated by NQP-rx not doing roles, and partly by a desire for diversity, I'm going to try to do lexical operator overloading a bit differently in rakudo 04:46
it will temporalize the same grammar
there'll be a stack of grammar temporalizations
with a bit of dynamic-wind-y trickery at module loads
TimToady that won't work if you also do Cursor's trick of representing continuations with cursors 04:47
sorear reprewhatting whats with cursors?
diakopter heh 04:49
TimToady Cursor does backtracking using lazy lists of cursors that keep the entire match state including current position, match tree, and language 04:50
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TimToady no work is done to backtrack; you merely throw away the current cursor and find the next one 04:51
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sorear bleh 04:52
NQP-rx basically works like that...
the temporalization *might* automatically undo
(except we keep our cursors on the stack, and return to backtrack)
TimToady you can't backtrack into a match that way 04:53
sorear well then. looks like I'm going to wait for any("pmichaud to change his mind on mixins in NQP-rx", "Rakudo bootstrapped") 04:54
TimToady the neat think about the Cursor approach is that the ratchet optimization simply throws away all but the first result 04:56
hence most of the rules turn into if/thens instead of nested lazymaps 04:57
bbl & 04:58
spinclad ash__: re does it capture the world, a naive display implementation will do so, and an eval will force you to. not expensive in what it has to do on closing, but, yes, expensive in what it hangs on to. 05:00
ash__ yeah, you only need to clone lexpads, which shouldn't be to bad, but if you have an object that represents 30MB of memory, that can be expensive to hang on to for a closure that may or may not be needed much 05:01
spinclad (not expensive in that you already have the outer context/display with the world already in it, and you just clone and lengthen it by a layer)
ash__ and you could just set a flag to COW the variables so you don't have to actively clone everything
spinclad (clone is O(lexical depth)
)
ash__ you could do some lexical analysis to see if you would eval in the closure, and which variables need capturing to minimize the amount of work, but a naive implementation would probably just copy the lexpads of the lexical scope 05:03
spinclad right, and for that you need an escape analysis, which the eval (or YOU_ARE_HERE also) blocks
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spinclad needn't copy the lexpads (layers) i think, they can be shared by reference among different displays (naively) 05:07
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ash__ well, right now, my plan in nq-nqp was to scan the closure for variables it used and copy them into a special lexpad that is pushed to the top of the lexical scope when you call the closure, which i think i can still do, but now i have to make my lexpads a bit smarter and set a flag on variables that should be captures so when they get updated, it pushes the old value into that special lexpad 05:09
i think that would give me the right functionality for my program
spinclad in fact, for shared lexical state they should/must be shared (naively)
ash__ was perlcabal on feather? 05:10
spinclad variables it uses: declares and uses? that's the new layer in my rough language 05:11
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diakopter ash__: yes 05:12
spinclad: your rough language? 05:13
Juerd should be waking up sometime soon :)
and might resurrect feather
spinclad diakopter: don't know if layer is established terminology
i'm just rough-hewing the language there 05:14
diakopter oh you don't mean a programming language. got it
ash__ well... this is going to be a fun re-design of my lexical scoping >.<
spinclad i think lexpad a good common term there 05:15
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ash__ well, thanks for talking, sleep time 05:23
diakopter 'nite 05:24
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moritz_ good morning butterflymoose 06:00
diakopter howdy 06:01
TimToady butterflymeese?
spinclad flutter-by meeses 06:02
sorear hello moritz_
moritz_: can you tell me what the purpose of ObjectRef is? 06:04
I can understand Perl6Scalar
sorear is trying to implement binding and maybe !FETCH 06:06
moritz_ sorear: not really; as far as I understand it's used to distinguish array containers that flatten, and those that don't
sorear Who would know more?
moritz_ sorear: pmichaud would
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sorear hmm, I wonder if I should switch to e-mail for extracting information from him. 06:07
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moritz_ maybe ask on p6c; perhaps somebody else knows too 06:08
is feather known to be down/unreachable atm?
sorear yes 06:09
TimToady doesn't even have DNS at the moment
sorear hmm. My RT reply went to p6c, but not to the ticket itself 06:10
so much for Reply-To:
ah, it finally made the ticket too... 06:11
moritz_ rt + mailing lists introduce quite a delay 06:17
which is why I usually also CC the one I'm replying to 06:18
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moritz_ btw if anybody wants a git clone of the pugs repo, please go to github.com/moritz/Mu 06:27
last commit it recorded is from 13 hours ago
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sorear :/ My IRC client is trying to turn into a full reactive programming framework 07:42
moritz_ emacs? 07:43
sorear no 07:44
a long-term project of mine that I've been using as a scaffold to learn perl56
perl6
moritz_ oh, then one you're writing 07:46
sorear it's what I started playing with macros for
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ruoso phenny, tell BrowserUK please take a look at perl6-language history. TimToady sent your comments about the threading model there and I'm posting a reply... 09:28
phenny ruoso: I'll pass that on when BrowserUK is around.
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k23z__ !seen BrowserUK 09:29
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masak oh hai, #perl6 09:38
moritz_ lolitsmasak
masak lol!
Casan cat 09:39
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snarkyboojum masak-san o/ 09:41
dalek meta: r265 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (4 files):
[perlesque] fix bug exposed by similar pugsbug; ash__++
meta: r266 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (2 files):
[perlesque] remove debug
meta: r267 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (2 files):
[perlesque] add dynamic .dll resolution/loading
meta: r268 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/src/Grammar/Grammar.cs:
[perlesque] catch dll load exceptions
meta: r269 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/ (2 files):
[perlesque] this is only a test. if this were a real emergency, ...
meta: r270 | diakopter++ | trunk/Sprixel/src/Grammar/Grammar.cs:
[perlesque] yes.
masak someone is up hacking :)
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Su-Shee so called "flood by productivity". 09:44
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masak rakudo: sub A($a) { our sub B { say $a } }; A(4); B() 09:48
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Symbol '$a' not predeclared in B␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
masak ah, our-scoped subs. :)
rakudo: sub A($a) { our sub B { say $a } }; B()
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Symbol '$a' not predeclared in B␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
masak alpha: sub A($a) { our sub B { say $a } }; B()
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in type()␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
masak I guess I could submit an RT ticket over something here, but frankly there doesn't seem to be much point. I have no idea how it all should work. 09:49
moritz_ perl 5 warns in such situation 09:50
"Variable $a not shared in sub B, $location_info" 09:51
or so
"will not stay shared" or "is not available"
snarkyboojum "Variable "$a" will not stay shared" 09:53
masak TimToady commented on that the other day.
when I asked impossible questions.
masak digs in the logs
aye, here: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-04-27#i_2269712 09:54
I got the impression that since Perl 6 has 'real closures', the problem had somehow gone away.
but right now my li'l head hertz from thinking about all the details :/
moritz_ it's not really about closures; it's about being able to access soemthing by name which hasn't set up an environment yet 09:55
unless you spec that at compile time a stub environment for these closures needs to be established 09:56
masak I think something like that is the long-term vision. 09:57
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masak so if A wasn't called, calling B would print 'Any()'. 09:58
moritz_ which will kinda annoy pmichaud, because in parrot there's no lexpad before the invocation
masak and if't was called, calling B would print the last value of the $a parameter.
moritz_ (iiuc)
wolverian /aw 10:02
whoops.
masak 'Mu' is a lovely name for the repository formerly known as the Pugs repository, by the way :) 10:03
moritz_ :-) 10:04
JimmyZ "JimmyZ" at 192.168.1.3 pasted "Rakudo Test Summary Report" (81 lines) at nopaste.snit.ch/20535 10:15
moritz_ it's known to be pretty noise on new parrots 10:16
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mathw Hey 10:27
masak hoi
moritz_ heu
masak std: sub A { our sub B {} }; B
p6eval std 30618: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 112m␤»
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pmurias diakopter: you switched to git-svn? 10:28
phenny pmurias: 11 May 15:26Z <TimToady> tell pmurias no, we will not remove .say from Any; you seem to have lost track of the idea that the main point of superclasses is to *lose* the separation of concerns imposed by the subclasses. Language design is more about *balance* of concerns.
masak phenny: you already said that.
hm, maybe not.
the above sounds like the core of Liskov defiance, by the way. :) 10:29
at least reading between the lines. 10:30
but I guess that was the intent. :) 10:32
on a more worldly note, Rakudo make install has been failing for me lately: gist.github.com/398424 10:34
the cuase is something with permissions, but I don't see anything which looks immediately wrong. 10:35
lunch & 10:36
10:42 gfx left 10:49 JimmyZ left 10:51 ruoso left 11:00 Trashlord left
masak yay! Web.pm is mentioned in a TPF grant summary report. news.perlfoundation.org/2010/05/run...y-rep.html 11:06
it's been a while since that happened. when your grant organization stops including you in their summary reports, and you're unable to reach your grant manager, things get so much less straightforward... :/ 11:07
Alberto++
behind the scenes, via email, communication has been picking up lately. all in all, it's a relief.
jnthn masak++ # not giving up on it 11:09
11:09 agentzh left 11:10 mikehh joined
masak it's been one long, drawn-out project. but I still think it has many good parts. 11:10
in a sense, the Web.pm project started both way too early and right on time.
on a Rakudo/Perl 6 timeline with perfect hindsight, that is. 11:11
jnthn It's chicken and egg. Rakudo needs more apps developed to make it better. Devloping apps being fun needs Rakudo to be better. 11:12
hejki i can't see the proto-chicken dinosaur which egg evolved into a chicken egg in that analogy 11:13
masak I'm sure all small language communities face this Catch 22 in some way.
jnthn We have a growing number of modules/apps and Rakudo is steadily improving, so I guess we're getting it somewhat right. 11:14
moritz_ masak: re install, that line should be pod2man docs/running.pod > /usr/local/man/man1/perl6.1 11:25
masak: could you please nopaste the generated Makefile?
masak okie.
gist.github.com/398455 11:26
line 29: 11:27
POD2MAN =
there you go.
moritz_++
moritz_ masak: do you have a pod2man in $PATH?
masak likely not. 11:28
whence do I get that?
11:28 M_o_C left, KyleHa joined
moritz_ would have thought that's shipped with perl 11:28
masak hm, I do seem to have one in /opt/local/bin/pod2man
moritz_ it is, on Debian
KyleHa Howdy #perl6
moritz_ is that in $PATH?
hello KyleHa 11:29
masak KyleHa: hi!
moritz_: yes.
KyleHa Pugs SVN is running again \o/ 11:30
11:31 envi^home left
moritz_ masak: what does parrot_config has_pod2man pod2man print? 11:31
masak has_pod2man => '0'\n no such key: 'pod2man' 11:32
moritz_ so parrot's Configure.pl doesn't detect it 11:33
masak odd.
moritz_ do you use the perl in /opt/local/bin/ to configure parrot?
masak possibly not.
moritz_ do you have a pod2man in the same directory as the perl that you use for configuring? 11:34
masak hm.
cognominal
masak moritz_: no. 11:35
moritz_ hm
11:36 envi^home joined
masak hold on; yes. 11:36
but it's not executable! o.O
moritz_ :/ 11:37
then make it so :-)
masak 'The contents of this script should normally never run! The perl wrapper should pick the correct script in /usr/bin by appending the appropriate version.'
and there are scripts with version numbers appended, which are executable.
11:37 KyleHa left
moritz_ and no wrapper or symlink in /usr/bin? 11:38
called /usr/bin/pod2man, I mean
masak yes, but that's the non-executable one with the above quote.
not sure I want to mess with the way things are currently set up.
moritz_ huh, that looks silghtly weird
any other macos user around? 11:42
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masak filling the POD2MAN variable in the Makefile with /usr/bin/pod2man5.10.0 works, fwiw. 11:43
but it's hardly a long-term solution. :)
moritz_ the long term solution is probably to fix your pod2man/perl installation 11:44
or bribe the parrot devs into patching Configure.pl to work with your setup 11:45
11:45 JimmyZ joined
masak aye. 11:45
11:46 colomon joined
snarkyboojum I'm a macos user :) 11:49
but I use a custom built perl 5.12 by default :)
moritz_ snarkyboojum: do you have a /usr/bin/pod2man?
snarkyboojum moritz_: yep - same story as masak 11:50
but $ which pod2man -> /usr/local/bin/pod2man
moritz_ and that's executable?
masak I get that too.
but that's not my default perl installation, AFAIK. 11:51
snarkyboojum both are executable on my system
i.e. /usr/bin and /usr/local/bin
pod2man
$ which perl -> /usr/local/bin/perl 11:53
for me
i.e. perl 5.12
11:53 cognominal left, \shade\ left, Trey left
moritz_ snarkyboojum: and parrot detects your pod2man correctly? 11:54
snarkyboojum it did last time I did a perl Configure.pl --gen-parrot
at least I could view the man pages if I gave it the right search path i.e. man -M blah
moritz_ and can you install a current rakudo?
snarkyboojum current as of last night
11:54 M_o_C joined
moritz_ thanks 11:55
that's new enough
snarkyboojum welcome :)
snarkyboojum tries again anyway
yep - my generated Makefile has 'POD2MAN = /usr/local/bin/pod2man' 11:56
moritz_ the patch that uses pod2man was applied yesterday morning
by me :(
11:57 Trashlord joined, pmurias left 11:58 Trey joined
snarkyboojum just did another build and it works fine 11:59
man pages are installed locally i.e. in my home directory, using /usr/local/bin/pod2man
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pmichaud_ yay, feather is back! 12:05
good morning, #perl6
Juerd 3;0 juerd@feather:~$ uptime
14:05:44 up 42 days, 18:28, 5 users, load average: 0.03, 0.10, 0.05
twas the fiber.
jnthn morning, pmichaud_
colomon o/
masak morning, pm. 12:06
pmichaud_ whether it twas feather or fiber, I was unable to get spectests yesterday :-|
Juerd I was unable to get sleep...
masak musta been the fiber, 'cause the www.november-wiki.org is still up :)
Juerd 14:06 here and I'm about to go to bed now. Finally.
moritz_ juerd: suspected as much, because the dns was also down 12:07
good sleep :-)
Juerd Thanks
moritz_ pmichaud_: git mirror of the pugs repo at github.com/moritz/Mu/
pmichaud_ moritz_: oooh -- good to know :-) 12:08
moritz_ (I'm slowly trying to weed out the term "pugs repo", because pugs isn't in there anymore)
Juerd What's in a name :)
moritz_ but it's hard as long as the path is still svn.pugscode.org/pugs
Juerd: confusion
Juerd That's the thing we need more of, right? 12:09
12:10 ruoso joined
pmichaud_ I always thought we had plenty. :-) 12:15
moritz_ speaking of confusion... most .de domains aren't resolvable right now 12:16
12:16 pmichaud left
moritz_ or maybe half of them 12:16
12:16 pmichaud_ is now known as pmichaud
masak why? 12:16
moritz_ seems 4 of the 6 primary DNS server don't want to give any answer except NXDOMAIN 12:17
pmichaud suspects volcano ash.
moritz_ suspects technical incompetence
pmichaud or perhaps it has to do with greek sovereign debt. 12:18
12:19 moritz_ sets mode: +ooo pmichaud masak Juerd
moritz_ ah 12:22
pmichaud afk, kid to school 12:23
moritz_ there was an announcement on a denic mailing list
"maintenance for increasing system redundancy"
somebody asked "will the nameservers be affect" - "no"
of course not.
12:27 snarkyboojum left, snarkyboojum joined
masak snarkyboojum: the more I think about subs and their scoping, the more I realize that I do not fully understand them yet. it would be nice if we could sit down at some point and try to figure them out together, such that the road ahead is clear. 12:32
probably after my talk on Monday :)
moritz_ the more I think about subs, the more I'm convinced that having them lexically scoped is a good idea. 12:33
snarkyboojum masak: gladly - sounds like a fun evening of rakudo machinations :)
talk on Monday is a Moscow talk? 12:34
masak aye.
snarkyboojum topic?
grammars? :D
masak devconf.ru/perl/page/programm
for once, not grammars. 12:35
I'll be talking about Yapsi, Tardis and Sigmund.
snarkyboojum masak: w00t - looks v. cool :) 12:36
"The future is now, it's just unevenly distributed." in my translation
:)
masak aye. that's an accurate enough translation.
snarkyboojum masak: do subs have lexical scope by default in rakudo? 12:40
err.. perl 6 :)
masak yes, I think so. 12:41
moritz_ both
masak but they can still be called textually before they're defined, because the compile phase comes before the run phase.
snarkyboojum at least in the symtable when looking at --target=past you get "scope" => "lexical" 12:42
masak rakudo: foo; sub foo() { say "OH HAI" }
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«OH HAI␤»
masak rakudo: BEGIN { foo }; sub foo() { say "OH HAI" }
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &foo␤current instr.: '_block13' pc 25 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
moritz_ that's because the lexpad sits notionally at the start of each block 12:43
rakudo: eval 'say $x'; my $x = 4;
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
moritz_ rakudo: eval 'say $x'; my $x = 4; BEGIN { $x = 4 }
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Symbol '$x' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
moritz_ rakudo: eval 'say $x'; my $x = 4; BEGIN $x = 4;
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Symbol '$x' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
pmichaud suggests 'INIT' 12:44
moritz_ rakudo: eval 'say $x'; my $x = 4; INIT { $x = 4 }
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in getprop()␤current instr.: '&infix:<=>' pc 17523 (src/builtins/Junction.pir:205)␤»
pmichaud bah :-)
moritz_ :-)
anyway
the fact that the eval '...' doesn't die, but print anything, shows that $x is in scope
even if not yet initialized
masak *nod* 12:45
another way to state the same thing is that 'my' keywords play no role after compilation.
JimmyZ ya, Null PMC access in getprop again!
masak that one's reported already :)
snarkyboojum rakudo: eval 'my $a = 5'; say $a; 12:47
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
snarkyboojum :)
12:48 hanekomu joined
masak snarkyboojum: that doesn't work, because the compiler doesn't see your 'my' while compiling the program. 12:48
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = \Int; say $a
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Capture()<0x33534d0>␤»
snarkyboojum masak: yeah, was testing that out
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = \Int; say &$a
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«␤»
snarkyboojum so my is processed 'statically'?
masak rakudo: eval '$a = 5'; say my $a
snarkyboojum or something...
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«5␤»
masak snarkyboojum: yes. 12:49
snarkyboojum cool
ruoso just sent a second version of the threading model to p6-l
JimmyZ eval doesn't like " ?
pmichaud eval likes " just fine. But you have to escape the $'s :-) 12:50
rakudo: my $a = 5; eval "$a = 5";
p6eval rakudo ed2409: ( no output )
pmichaud rakudo: my $a = 5; eval "$a = 5; say $a";
p6eval rakudo ed2409: ( no output )
pmichaud rakudo: my $a = 5; eval "\$a = 7; say \$a";
snarkyboojum rakudo: eval "my $a = 5";
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«7␤»
rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Symbol '$a' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
pmichaud rakudo++ 12:51
snarkyboojum that's kinda weird - so it doesn't see the declaration at eval time, but it see the initialisation attempt
pmichaud uh, no.
snarkyboojum ok :)
pmichaud with the double quotes, it's trying to substitute a value of $a into the string, but there is no $a 12:52
JimmyZ rakudo: eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class Foo{ }; augment class Foo { method Str() { "hi"; } } ; say ~Foo.new"
moritz_ it interpolates the string before eval() is ever called
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of has-scoped Method in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace␤Useless declaration of has-scoped Method in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace␤Null PMC access in get_string()␤current instr.: '_block14'
..pc 29…
snarkyboojum eek ok
JimmyZ rakudo: eval 'use MONKEY_TYPING; class Foo{ }; augment class Foo { method Str() { "hi"; } } ; say ~Foo.new'
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«hi␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class Foo\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«hi␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} } ; say ~Foo.new" 12:53
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«You can't backslash that at line 11, near "}; augment"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
masak "You can't backslash that" -- that's what I was thinking :)
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«You can't backslash that at line 11, near "}; augment"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
pmichaud nqp: sub xyz($a) { -> { say $a } }; my $x := xyz(4); my $y := xyz(5); $x(); 12:54
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Missing block at line 1, near "-> { say $"␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class Foo\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«hi␤»
pmichaud nqp: sub xyz($a) { { say $a } }; my $x := xyz(4); my $y := xyz(5); $x();
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Unable to parse blockoid, couldn't find final '}' at line 1␤current instr.: 'parrot;Regex;Cursor;FAILGOAL' pc 1664 (src/Regex/Cursor-builtins.pir:179)␤»
pmichaud nqp: sub xyz($a) { { say($a) } }; my $x := xyz(4); my $y := xyz(5); $x();
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«4␤5␤invoke() not implemented in class 'Integer'␤current instr.: '_block11' pc 0 (EVAL_1:5)␤»
rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«You can't backslash that at line 11, near "}; augment"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
pmichaud nqp: sub xyz($a) { -> { say($a) } }; my $x := xyz(4); my $y := xyz(5); $x();
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Missing block at line 1, near "-> { say($"␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197)␤»
pmichaud nqp: sub xyz($a) { sub { say($a) } }; my $x := xyz(4); my $y := xyz(5); $x();
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«Routine declaration requires a signature at line 1, near "{ say($a) "␤current instr.: 'parrot;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 500 (src/cheats/hll-grammar.pir:197)␤»
pmichaud arrrrrgh
moritz_ sub () { ... } maybe? 12:55
pmichaud nqp: sub xyz($a) { return { say($a) } }; my $x := xyz(4); my $y := xyz(5); $x();
p6eval nqp: OUTPUT«5␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a{ }; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
pmichaud there
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.: '!postcircumfix:<{ }>' pc 14451 (src/builtins/Code.pir:30)␤»
pmichaud (yes, output is wrong -- that's what I was testing)
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a{ }; augment class Foo { method Str() { 'hi'; } } ; say ~Foo.new"
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of has-scoped Method in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace␤Useless declaration of has-scoped Method in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace␤Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.:
..'!postcircumfix:<{ }…
moritz_ JimmyZ: the {...} still interpolate in double-quoted strings 12:56
JimmyZ How can I get it to work? my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
or Is it a bug?
moritz_ doesn't see a bug 12:57
JimmyZ then how can I get it working?
moritz_ JimmyZ: first construct the string; then print it out, to verify it's actually what you expect
once you've got that work, feed it into eval 12:58
pmichaud note that you need a space between the $a and the brace
i.e., "class $a \{ \};" and not "class $a\{ \};"
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a \{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new" 12:59
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«hi␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class Foo\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«hi␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class {$a}\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«hi␤»
JimmyZ ~~
pmichaud interesting. :-)
JimmyZ then the error message bugs me 13:00
pmichaud well, the error message is actually pointing to the error, as far as it goes 13:01
although Null PMC is certainly wrong -- not sure why that's coming up.
JimmyZ Useless declaration of has-scoped Method in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace?
moritz_ www.denic.de/typo3temp/pics/i_64bbbffdb3.jpg # that pretty much explains the DNS failure
pmichaud JimmyZ: what error are you referring to, then? 13:02
JimmyZ How can I get it to work? my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
sorry
rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a{ }; augment class Foo { method Str() { 'hi'; } } ; say ~Foo.new" 13:03
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of has-scoped Method in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace␤Useless declaration of has-scoped Method in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace␤Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.:
..'!postcircumfix:<{ }…
13:03 actualmind joined
moritz_ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; print "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a{ }; augment class Foo { method Str() { 'hi'; } } ; say ~Foo.new" 13:03
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Useless declaration of has-scoped Method in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace␤Useless declaration of has-scoped Method in a module; add our or my to install it in the lexpad or namespace␤Null PMC access in invoke()␤current instr.:
..'!postcircumfix:<{ }…
JimmyZ rakudo: eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class Foo\{ \}; augment class Foo\{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new"
snarkyboojum masak: "View History" for pages at november-wiki.org/ is giving "An internal error occurred. Apologies."
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«hi␤»
JimmyZ but this one works
the former doesn't work 13:04
moritz_ JimmyZ: that's because the { ... } is run *outside* the eval
masak snarkyboojum: I think there's a long-standing Issue ticket for that on github.
moritz_ JimmyZ: and that way it's also run outside any class
snarkyboojum masak: okydoke
moritz_ JimmyZ: so the error message does make sense 13:05
masak snarkyboojum: lichtkind discovered it months ago, and I haven't really taken the time to investigate. it wasn't always like that, though.
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval "use MONKEY_TYPING; class $a\{ \}; augment class Foo \{ method Str() \{ 'hi'; \} \} ; say ~Foo.new" 13:06
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«You can't backslash that at line 11, near "}; augment"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a/ = 'hi'; say $a/; 13:07
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "my $a/ = '"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a\ = 'hi'; say $a\;
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Confused at line 11, near "say $a\\;"␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
13:10 orafu joined 13:12 colomon left, colomon joined
jnthn afk, talk i Malmö 13:14
13:14 raj joined, Guest49481 left 13:15 raj left, PerlJam joined
JimmyZ rakudo: my $a = 'Foo'; eval " class $a\{ \}" 13:16
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«You can't backslash that at line 11, near "}\""␤current instr.: 'perl6;HLL;Grammar;panic' pc 501 (ext/nqp-rx/src/stage0/HLL-s0.pir:327)␤»
JimmyZ rakudo: eval " class Foo\{ \}"
p6eval rakudo ed2409: ( no output )
moritz_ JimmyZ: unless there's something that you want to demonstrate, could you please use private message with p6eval? 13:17
that would reduce the noise level here
JimmyZ I think it's a bug.
moritz_ then report it as such 13:18
including a description why you think it's a bug
std: my $a = 'Foo'; eval " class $a\{ \}" 13:19
p6eval std 30618: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 113m␤»
moritz_ ah, unspace interpolation issue, probably
JimmyZ $a\ is not a var
moritz_ $a{ is the beginning of an interpolation of a variable + postcircumfix 13:20
and $a\{ is the same thing with an unspace, in rakudo's opinion
JimmyZ and Foo\{ ? 13:21
moritz_ Foo has no sigil 13:22
JimmyZ then I can send report, because std works 13:23
:)
moritz_ 15:18 <@moritz_> then report it as such
JimmyZ will do, I forgot std :( 13:24
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snarkyboojum masak: you'll have to put up that moscow preso somewhere once done :) 13:28
masak I usually publish presentations as PDFs here: feather.perl6.nl/~masak/ 13:29
ruoso actually sent a third and simplified version of the threading model
snarkyboojum ah yes, read them all :P 13:30
masak :) 13:31
not sure how much sense some of them make without a speaker.
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masak wikitravel.org/en/Moscow -- "There are no English signs inside so have your itinerary ready beforehand or learn to read Cyrillic, which is possible." I like that last part. :) 13:56
PerlJam I think there may be an "im" missing :) 14:02
masak oh, I wouldn't say that. 14:05
most people in the sciences already have some familiarity with the Greek alphabet. 14:06
and Russian has a refreshingly mismatch between spelling and pronunciation. at least compared to English.
s/refreshingly/refreshingly small/
k23z__ I just generated 14:07
14:11 rgrau` joined
masak k23z__: missing direct object near line 1 :) 14:11
k23z__ masak, haha
pugssvn r30619 | lwall++ | [STD,Cursor] implement circumfix:«X Y» as grammar derivation 14:12
r30619 | [Cursor] recognize foofix:("\x[face]") and foofix:("\c[YOUR CHARACTER HERE]")
r30619 | without actually evaluating
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colomon rakudo: say (-.5).floor 14:19
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«-1␤»
masak rakudo: say .floor 14:20
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Method 'floor' not found for invocant of class ''␤current instr.: '_block14' pc 29 (EVAL_1:0)␤»
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masak rakudo: say .WHAT 14:21
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Any()␤»
masak guess floor is Cool nowadays.
moritz_ rakudo: say Cool.^methods(:local).map({.name}).grep(any <ceiling floor round>) 14:22
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«floorroundceiling␤»
moritz_ rakudo: say Cool.^methods(:local).map({.name}).grep(any <ceiling floor round>).join: ', '
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«ceiling, floor, round␤»
colomon okay, that was an impressive string of p6. moritz_++ 14:23
ash__ know what would be a cool operator 14:24
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ash__ something that means ( )., so in the above you could do .map { .name } NEWOP 14:25
well, NEWOP grep or maybe NEWOP .grep
moritz_ ash__: *.name
ash__ ah
true
moritz_ just forgot that it was implemented 14:26
ash__ but you'd still have to ( ) around that
.map *.name .grep wouldn't work, would it?
moritz_ map: *.name ==> grep any <... > ==> say 14:27
ash__: yours would be two terms in a row
TimToady you can already use . for free after {} 14:28
at least in STD
since {} terminates an argument list unless followed by , or : 14:29
ash__ so, could you write .map {.name}.grep(...) ?
PerlJam almost 14:30
TimToady not without a : after the map
ash__ i am thinking of the cascading message operator in smalltalk, thats were i have seen it before
moritz_ std: .map: {.name}.grep(...)
p6eval std 30619: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 112m␤»
TimToady methods assume there are no arguments
and these days you can drop the space
std: .map:{.name}.grep(...)
p6eval std 30619: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 110m␤»
ash__ cool 14:31
moritz_ thinks that feed operators will make nice syntax
TimToady since we don't allow name extension with closures :)
yah, but nobody quite knows how to think of them yet
moritz_ I have a mental model of them, and it's probably mostly wrong :-) 14:32
TimToady I have several mental models, so most of 'em are guaranteed wrong :)
but if they set up threads, and if we go the Erlangish no-shared variables route, then suddently ==> looks like it's breaking lexical scoping 14:33
otoh, if ==> is just a lazy list writ large, then lazy lists could break lexical scoping too... 14:34
moritz_ kinda thought that the Perl 6 model was to share everything from outer scopes
no idea how sane that is, though
TimToady well, that's not what ruoso++'s current model does 14:35
ash__ started reading the messages from ruoso and is not sure what perl 6s threading model will be
moritz_ TimToady: well, it's not in any S\d\d document yet, so I feel free to ignore it for a moment
TimToady we might be able to analyze use of an outer lexical and determine which thread is the reader and which is the writer
moritz_ what I miss from these proposals are examples 14:36
ash__ that would be useful
moritz_ use cases, and how the proposed model handles them
I'm not into die-hard concurrency terminology
ash__ he also mentions erlang and IO a lot and i am not familiar with those... i know they exist, but i haven't threaded with them before
TimToady and if ==> implies async, we probably want to force use of {} on one end or both
ruoso always thought that ==> implies async 14:37
moritz_ so most of that is just abstract talk with not relation to reality - and kinda fits well into p6l (no offense meant)
(at least to me it is)
ash__ ruoso: do you have any references for erlang i can glance over to understand their threading model better? 14:38
ruoso ash__, www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?ActorsModel
TimToady but if so, you don't want (my @abc = ...; ...) ==> @abc sorts of lexical visibility, probably
ruoso would be quite confused by that 14:39
TimToady {my @abc} ==> @abc would catch that
that's assuming only the source is async
I guess the default in Unix pipes is that the sink is sync, unless you put & 14:40
ruoso TimToady, agreed
TimToady but it's still a separate process to its shell
so it can't make lexical vars for the shell 14:41
ruoso I have considered that when resolving outer variables inside a different thread, you would get a RemoteValue bvalue
TimToady I guess shell's & is spelled '==> sink' in p6 14:42
ruoso which means the actual variable manipulation would be delegated to the original thread
pugssvn r30620 | renormalist++ | Sync with github version rebased to upstream v6.2
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ruoso TimToady, no... that'd be the equivalent to "> /dev/null" 14:42
TimToady printing to the terminal is a mere side effect :) 14:43
moritz_ just to make sure I understood that correctly, the parent and child threads are asymmetrical in that proposal?
ruoso "async { .... ==> ... }" would be the equivalent to &
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ruoso moritz_, the point is that there isn't child and parent threads... it's a plain list, not a tree 14:45
TimToady, sink is sync
hejki unless you have a master thread that runs a bunch of threads :)
TimToady I would like to have it both ways :)
but from the standpoing of message passing policy, flat is pretty good 14:46
ruoso that's the point...
not even the coroutines stack is a tree
it's a flat list 14:47
and coroutines waiting for a return value are simply blocked
CPS ftw
TimToady structure is reflected in the names/locations of sources and sinks
ruoso precisely
TimToady and doesn't necessary have to be duplicated in thread table
*rily
ruoso sources and sinks are the "pipes" 14:48
TimToady Erlang has some nice properties which it would be good to steal, to the extent possible
are the ends of the pipes
ruoso TimToady, yes... yes... I meant they are not the actual thing reading or writing to them... 14:49
TimToady Erlang's threads are very lightweight, and you can run 100,000 without bogging down
PerlJam makes a mental note to learn erlang next
TimToady the other property that is nice is that you can upgrade a module in place, and since the state is mostly reflected in the messages, the new module just fits in and takes up where the old one left off 14:50
we perhaps have more state that is not in message, so it might be harder for us
moritz_ you can't even run 100,000 iterations sequentially with Rakudo without bogging down :-)
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ruoso TimToady, yes... I wouldn't try to natively support network-bound messaging yet... 14:50
(as things that would be harder to us) 14:51
TimToady it would be nice to hit a sweet spot that is extensible in various ways, though
ash__ would there be a N:M threading model? (where there are X schedulers running in kernel threads and M threads in each scheduler?)
ruoso one thing i still didn't think much about is how to share the data in the setting... 14:52
ash__, yes... where M are the coroutines in my model
ash__ got ya
TimToady most setting data is immutable
unless you're speaking of the setting of the async
ruoso or the fact that the setting of the async is mostly the same as the setting of the calling coroutine 14:53
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ruoso maybe we just assume that the setting should be immutable and thread-safe 14:53
TimToady I think the setting of an async has to be the language in force at the point of the async, just like eval does by default
predeclarations have to be visible 14:54
that doesn't mean that any kind of access is allowed
we can restrict access without restricting visibility, where such is necessary for sanity
s/eval does/eval is supposed to do/ :) 14:55
ruoso and... compile-time optimizations might be sufficient...
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TimToady if static analyis can look at an outer construct and distribute it sanely over its users, sure 14:55
ruoso if the symbol is known to come from the setting at compile time (and we do know it), we can have a different policy
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TimToady there are many settings, when you start talking about eval and friends 14:56
ruoso otherwise it will have to ask the caller thread what does "infix:<+>" menas
*means
TimToady no, that's lexical
only macros have to worry about that sort of thing
and other such generic code, like maybe roles 14:57
ruoso yes... it's lexical... but in { my $foo = 1; async { sleep 1; say $foo}; $foo = 2}
it needs to ask the caller thread what $foo means
but in { my $foo = 1; async { sleep1; say $foo + 2 }; $foo = 2 } 14:58
TimToady well, sure, but that's dynamic data, and yes, if you rebind &infix:<+> in the outer, then it has to ask about that too, unless we restrict that
ruoso it doesn't need to ask what infix:<+> is
that was what I was talking about
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ash__ well, what about custom ops? 14:59
or multi's
TimToady all lexically scoped
ash__ wouldn't it need to ask about the ops?
ruoso and you know about'em at compile time
TimToady (again, unless explicitly rebound) 15:00
but we can recognize that and pessimize
ruoso ash__, if it's declared in another thread, it will need to ask to that thread for it...
TimToady but can cache an immutable
just as it can cache the value of an immutable $*FOO 15:01
ruoso we can even make it thread-safe eventually
the immutables, I mean
TimToady immutables work much better than mutables under multiprocessing of various sorts, but people like to program with mutables, so it's another balance fo concerns 15:03
*of
ruoso but there are a lot of immutables in a lot of places, even if people prefer mutables 15:05
TimToady sure, and sometimes you can sneak 'em in and make 'em look mutable, as with strings 15:06
ruoso for instance, as much as I like the idea of applying a Role to a method, I'd be pretty much confortable with requiring that to be made at declaration time
so methods can be immutable 15:07
TimToady well, there's always 'use SLOW_MONKEYS;' 15:08
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TimToady and many things can be proven effectively immutable simply because nobody changes them anywhere in the application 15:09
if you do whole program analysis
ruoso (which is completely possible in Perl 6) 15:10
TimToady which, in fact, we require for class finalization
ash__ will/should async provide a synchronization point mechanism?
oh duh
stupid question, thats the maybe/deferrer/contend
TimToady that does extend the lockless paradigm into shared objects, if we can work it out nicely 15:12
ruoso the problem is making sure they are thread-safe
TimToady but we might have to put constraints and requirements on Responder Interfaces
ruoso thread-safeness can be a target for code in the setting, otoh 15:13
TimToady or tell the RI "you aren't allowed to participate in STM"
one could go as far as to manage foreign data with before-and-after snapshot comparisons, provided there's a way to reset to 'before' state 15:14
and someday it could potentially integrate into a well-behaved database interface
ruoso that's what STM does... and it's way too complicated
TimToady well, but the other way just has different complicatoins 15:15
I like the sandwich model that does STM on top and messages on the bottom
ruoso the issue is how deep the complications are...
TimToady with a scheduler as the filling
ruoso hmmm... STM on top?... 15:16
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TimToady the phrase to google is "unify events and threads" 15:19
unfortunately the original article seems to have disappeared from upenn
ruoso just loves when "I'm feeling lucky" returns a paper
TimToady *unifying events and threads 15:21
LtU has some discussion, even if you can't get at the original
ruoso hah! that's the same article you pointed me three years ago... :D 15:22
ash__ what if you made each thread a share nothing threading, and they have to ask for things from the rest of the world via contend blocks, or is that to cumbersome?
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ruoso ash__, the idea is making it transparent to the user 15:22
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ruoso i.e.: make them easier then Perl 5 shared variables 15:23
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ruoso ash__, it kinda works like that, but it's hidden by a "RemoteValue" object 15:23
ruoso lunch & 15:24
ash__ i am just thinking of how to keep the threads as light weight as possible, doesn't erlang (i could be completely wrong on this) do a share nothing? and everything each thread does know about, it became aware of through a message queue?
ruoso ash__, a RemoteValue isn't aware of the other thread... it's a proxy to a message queue 15:25
ash__ ah, got ya 15:26
15:26 molaf left
ash__ so your just doing that automatically thats cool 15:26
moritz_ \o/ I've got support from TPF for buying t-shirts for new Perl 6 contributors 15:43
colomon moritz_++
moritz_ TPF++ 15:44
masak \o/ 15:45
TimToady *o* <-- waving pompoms 15:53
ash__ neat
if you want to buy one, how would this be accomplished?
moritz_ rakudo.spreadshirt.com/ 15:54
there are other shops too
k23z__ what's a second system ?
moritz_ there's a wikipedia entry about that 15:55
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-system_effect
clintongormley hi all, i'm hoping that somebody can answer a not-perl-related-at-all question
it's about unicode and DUCET 15:56
masak sounds like a question for #unicode-and-ducet :P
clintongormley if only that existed ;)
masak sorry; carry on. :)
clintongormley ok - the thing i'm trying to do is to sort search results by 'name', where 'name' can contain characters from pretty much any language 15:57
results are being returned from a Lucene based full text search
Su-Shee offers a tissue. you will cry.
clintongormley heh yeah :) 15:58
unfortunately, java's unicode library (ICU) doesn't seem to support DUCET
just to clarify, if i've understood it correctly, DUCET is a best-attempt at sorting across most scripts
moritz_ Unicode::Collate
clintongormley moritz_: yeah, except this is coming from java 15:59
Su-Shee return it unsorted and pipe it through something else.
clintongormley so best solution would be (1) somebody saying, oh you do it like this with ICU, or failing that (2) this is how you can store the strings, so that an ordinary sort would fix it 16:00
Su-Shee: the problem is the number of results. it'd be much more efficient if i can do this inside lucene
so i'm thinking something like: 'João' would get stored as 'joa2o', while 'joan' would become 'joa1n' 16:01
is this something I could hijack Unicode::Collate to do?
Su-Shee die DUCET wikipedia article says, ICU can do it. 16:02
clintongormley looks again
moritz_ "#perl6 - we are not afraid of Unicode"
isn't that a nice slogan?
clintongormley Su-Shee: as far as I understand it, ICU supports the Unicode collation algorithm, which is a baby brother to DUCET 16:03
although, this is from piecing together bits of info from 4 billion websites, so may well be wrong
Su-Shee clintongormley: I'm googling around as well.. 16:04
clintongormley ICU seems to require knowing the language up front
Su-Shee hm. the icu website says nothing about ducet. no good sign.
clintongormley yeah :(
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clintongormley (again, apologies for hijacking #p6 for this) 16:04
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Su-Shee you can pay #perl6 by writing a something nice for it some day. ;) like, let's say a cool text processing framework. :) 16:06
clintongormley sure, can you do it by tuesday? ;) 16:07
oh whoops, i misread that
moritz_ sure; depends on the Tuesday you mean :-)
clintongormley notes that moritz_ resembles a lazy operator
moritz_ would rather be a lazy meta operator 16:08
the moperator!
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moritz_ it seems that the Unicode collation algorithm needs a table 16:11
and ducet is just the default
so I'd assume that icu uses ducet by default if it sorts
clintongormley i think it uses ducet's baby brother
which is about 10kB instead of 100kB
and doesn't sort João correctly 16:12
Su-Shee hm, I found a blog entry about icu which at least seems to assume that the c++ version works 16:14
clintongormley link?
Su-Shee also, it seems that you want UCA and not DUCET 16:15
here: useless-factor.blogspot.com/2007/12...icode.html
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moritz_ wonders if decomposing and sorting isn't a sufficient approximation 16:16
or maybe decomposing, removing all marks, and then sorting
clintongormley hmm, so according to that blog DUCET is the data table for the UCA. I thought the UCA was like a subset of DUCET
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Su-Shee clintongormley: I'm so very much not sure :) 16:17
moritz_ UCA is an algorithm; DUCET is a table
clintongormley moritz_: yes, removing the marks may be a reasonable approximation
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clintongormley i wonder how it will work with Cyrillic though 16:17
(we have a russian site as well) 16:18
Su-Shee we sort per language only.
k23z__ "Nulla dies sine linea" 16:19
clintongormley the problem is, i'm running several websites off a single DB and a single full text engine. so different languages get stored in the same field, and for performance, should be analysed (for later sorting) at the time it is stored 16:20
Su-Shee nulled plenty of lines today while refactoring. ;)
clintongormley thanks for the help all, and apologies again for the interruption. just know that you guys are valued :)
moritz_ clintongormley: normal form KC should help you then
... and gals, please
clintongormley moritz_: thanks - will check it out
Su-Shee clintongormley: do you _really_ need sorting mixed by languages? 16:21
if not, I wouldn't even store different languages in one field and instead separate them and optimize per language.
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clintongormley Su-Shee: yeah, would mean rewriting my app completely, so don't want to go down that road 16:22
Su-Shee and btw.. what db?
clintongormley: well if it doesn't really work.. do it early and spare you many headaches later.
clintongormley i'm using mysql, which actually has a decent unicode collation based on ducet. it does the right thing
Su-Shee clintongormley: and mysql doesn't have a fulltext search?
clintongormley but we're switching the full text search to ElasticSearch (based on Lucene) which is why i'm hitting these issues 16:23
Su-Shee clintongormley: we simply use the postgres fulltext search for our stuff.
clintongormley FTS on MySQL is slooooow, and not terribly good
moritz_ it does, but it's not comparable to a proper search engine
clintongormley it's fine with small datasets, but not now
6 million objects
Su-Shee well right now, you lucene doesn't seem to work at all :)
clintongormley sometimes it'll lock up for 50 sec +, which also stops all updates :(
16:23 araujo left
clintongormley Su-Shee: one part of Lucene :) 16:23
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Su-Shee well I can tell you we _have_ all languages in one field and this doesn't help you with anything and only causes nuisance and headaches and sucks big time. 16:24
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_Vi perl -pe 'commands' Which perl6 invocation corresponds to this? perl6 -pe 's/q/w/' doesn't work. 16:28
moritz_ _Vi: most command line options aren't implemented in Rakudo yet 16:29
_Vi: S19 contains the gory details
_Vi So perl6 can't be used for simple sed-like oneliners now?
Su-Shee if I wanted to do a perl 6 art project, I'd print the specs by number on their city train counterparts. ;) 16:30
_Vi: no, only for huge powerful parsing stuff.
moritz_ _Vi: masak wrote a module that fakes those...
_Vi E.g. I want to do "perl -i * -pe 's/Qqq/Www/i' but with features of Perl6 regexes (like :ii).
moritz_ _Vi: github.com/masak/pun/
and :ii isn't implement yet either :( 16:31
however Str.samecase is 16:33
_Vi moritz_, Does this document (perlgeek.de/en/article/5-to-6) describes which things are already done in Perl6 or just planned?
moritz_ _Vi: planned
to quote from the first sub-article: "It is also not oriented on the current state of the implementations, but on the ideal language as specified." 16:35
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_Vi moritz_, How much of Perl6 is approximately done and when will it be ready? [in about 5 years?] 16:36
moritz_ "enough to use it in some cases, never enough" 16:37
and readiness strongly depends on your needs
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cotto_work Is there a likely date for the Rakudo * release or is that still unknown? 16:38
moritz_ cotto_work: "June" 16:39
cotto_work How firm is that?
moritz_ I haven't seen any indication for it being moved 16:40
cotto_work (I'm gathering dates to figure out when the best time for Parrot to move to Git is with minimal disruption to Parrot-based projects.)
ko 16:41
ok
16:41 _Vi left
[Coke] (for future reference, if someone is having trouble contacting their TPF grant manager, ping me. I am on the GC.) 16:45
clintongormley hah! Unicode::Collate rocks! $sortKey = $Collator->getSortKey($string) 16:48
colomon [Coke]: you do garbage collection for TPF? 16:49
;)
Su-Shee clintongormley: well perl loves you. ;) 16:50
clintongormley and boy do I love Perl :)
Su-Shee so you're throwing away your java? good boy :)
clintongormley nope - ElasticSearch works really well - me likee. it's the first java project that has made me go, hmm, interesting 16:51
moritz_
.oO( KinoSearch )
Su-Shee someone in a stack overflow thread called java the cobol of the 21st century ;) 16:52
clintongormley KinoSearch has faltered, last I looked. and its unicode support was pretty poor (nonexistent?)
moritz_ KinoSearch is currently being revamped in a branch
clintongormley ok
moritz_ of which there are development releases
clintongormley the guy who wrote ElasticSearch has done a really nice job of making it DWIM, and easy to use, and scalable 16:53
moritz_ the old one was pretty limited; I've planned to use the new one to re-do the search in th IRC logs
bubaflub moritz_: yesterday you asked me to add some tests for pairs being assigned to variables that have twigils
some of those twigils are for class variables (like public and private) stuff 16:54
moritz_ bubaflub: not being assigned to, but built from
bubaflub oh, ok
clintongormley moritz_: you should check out elasticsearch, it's got a lot going for it. JSON REST API
i've written a Perl interface : search.cpan.org/~drtech/ElasticSear...cSearch.pm
moritz_ will take a look 16:55
clintongormley www.elasticsearch.com
moritz_ bubaflub: and yes, some of them are attributes
rakudo: class Foo { has $!a; method pair { :$!a } }; say Foo.new(a => 5).pair.perl 16:56
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Symbol '$!a' not predeclared in pair␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
moritz_ that should return 'a' => 5
pmichaud: is there a way to apply an external modifier to a regex? 16:57
pmichaud: I want to implement $str.subst($re, '', :ii) - which requires setting the :ignorecase modifier on the regex
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pmurias diakopter: hi 17:11
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bubaflub moritz_: should that be a skip test then? 17:16
moritz_ bubaflub: yes
bubaflub ok, i'll add some tests to S02-literals/pairs.t 17:17
diakopter pmurias: hi
pmurias: no I didn't switch to git-svn, why
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pmichaud moritz_: not yet, no. 17:20
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pmichaud moritz_: and I haven't quite figure out how to make modifiers work on already-compiled regexes. 17:20
because it involves changing the regex code. 17:21
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moritz_ store the original text, and recompile? 17:21
sorear pmichaud: we seem to be running on skewed schedules here... shall I take the patch discussion to e-mail?
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moritz_ probably not that easy, because of lexical context... 17:21
pmichaud sorear: sure, that works. I would've answered last night but I was having internet and flooding issues at home. 17:22
pmurias diakopter: when using git-svn you first commit to your local copy of the repo and then push the commits "dcommit" to the central server 17:23
pmichaud for example, I was going to answer via the rt ticket, but ran into problems there.
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diakopter pmurias: oh, yes. 17:23
pmurias diakopter: 6 commits in a short time span looked like a dcommit
diakopter :)
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PerlJam pmurias: could have been SVK too :) 17:26
pmurias isn't SVK dead? 17:27
PerlJam It isn't dead if people are using it. (I have no idea if people are using it) 17:28
pmichaud what if only dead people are using it?
PerlJam Then it's good that we live in Texas where there are guns-a-plenty to take care of the zombies. 17:29
sorear this is quite surreal. perfectionism has *always* been my greatest coding failure 17:30
and now pmichaud is complaining that I'm being too short-term. 17:31
pmichaud no, just that it doesn't see a larger picture :)
and it's not really a complaint, it's more of a "comment from the designer"
PerlJam sorear: you're a short-term perfectionist? 17:32
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bubaflub moritz_: here's a gist of my diff for the test, not sure if this is what you want gist.github.com/397483 17:36
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sorear pmichaud: since you seem to be here right now. 1. In !UNIT_START, you propose using a contextual to figure out where to load code. I'm not sure I follow - surely lexical scoping is a static property? 17:53
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pmichaud except in the case of interactive mode 17:55
at any rate, we always have .set_outer to be able to explicitly set the lexical scope of a Parrot sub 17:56
sorear in the output it's static, though
since, as soon as the parser starts to process some code, it has to commit to the correct lexical scope
old-rakudo didn't do this, but it's necessary for sigilled variables
pmichaud sure, but we can tell the parser of any existing lexical scope
sorear yes 17:57
pmichaud we already have to do that, e.g., for 'use' modules
sorear the parser knows the lexical scope - why shouldn't it tell !UNIT_START directly?
pmichaud because the parser isn't the thing responsible for calling !UNIT_START
more to the point, it shouldn't be that.
sorear the parser... currently is the thing responsible for setting up !UNIT_START 17:58
pmichaud it is?
pmichaud looks
sorear src/Perl6/Actions.pm +75 17:59
pmichaud looks to me like the actions do it.
right, that's not really "the parser"
that's the "compiler" or "translator"
sorear I consider the actions part of the parser
they're completely inseperable
pmichaud they're not. Or more to the point, they shouldn't be inseperable.
sorear ok, then 18:00
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pmichaud the actions cannot live without the parser, but the parser should be able to live without the actions. That's part of the theory behind STD.pm. 18:00
sorear the *compiler* needs to commit to a lexical scope immediately
pmichaud sure, no problem.
sorear so why shouldn't the *compiler* tell !UNIT_START?
pmichaud because the compiler also isn't responsible for invoking !UNIT_START
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pmichaud it generates code that invokes !UNIT_START< yes. 18:01
but more generally, I believe that having a working REPL is something that ought to be doable across all HLLs
and that each HLL shouldn't have to roll its own from scratch
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pmichaud thus the core pieces of the REPL should be in the HLL::Compiler object 18:01
!UNIT_START is purely a Rakudo feature 18:02
sorear you have this wonderful and lofty goal, but I can see absolutely no way to implement it
pmichaud I see how to implement it though.
sorear would you please tell me?
compilers differ far too much; I don't see how to pass an initial lexical scope to an arbitrary compile 18:03
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sorear compilers differ too much; I don't see how to extract the "inner lexical scope" from compiled output to pass to the next compilation 18:03
pmichaud in the PCT/NQP world, it would be done via a dynamic variable that holds the current lexical scope
the compiler would then be able to look up things in that lexical scope 18:04
this already happens -- e.g., for eval()
when we compile a string in eval(), all we have is the existing dynamic scope of whatever is calling eval. 18:05
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pmichaud indeed, arguably Rakudo's eval() and the interactive mode should end up using very similar (ideally identical) mechanisms for this. 18:06
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pmichaud to that end, there's potentially an argument to be made that HLL::Compiler's eval should be lexically aware, and able to easily pass outer lexical context information to the compiler it invokes. 18:08
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sorear so all that's needed is the back hook 18:10
pmichaud right, and a reasonable API for using it 18:11
sorear given: a PAST::Node tree returned from (some compiler)
how do we: find the new value of outer_ctx
pmichaud I think the question doesn't quite fit
at the point of evaluating code, we already know an outer_ctx 18:12
sorear find the *new* value of outer_ctx
which is inner to the current code
pmichaud oh, we don't get that from a PAST::Node tree
we get that from the Parrot Sub object
or, from a context 18:13
at runtime, we have Parrot Subs
sorear where in HLL::Compiler does the "get that" code fit?
Tene not all compilers will necessarily use PAST, remember
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pmichaud in interactive mode, we compile some source down to a Parrot executable sub, then invoke that sub, and keep the sub around to be used as the outer context for the next line of interactive input 18:14
Tene Ah, nice.
I see. :)
pmichaud when the next line comes in, we compile the source (having the previous outer sub stashed away in a dynamic variable somewhere), the compiler can make use of the lexical information in that outer sub, it compiles to a new sub that is returned to interactive mode, interactive mode then invokes the new sub and keeps it around to be used as the outer context for the next line of interactive input 18:15
and so on...
PerlJam pmichaud: does that preclude "incomplete" lines in interactive mode? 18:16
pmichaud PerlJam: not at all
TimToady that'll screw up all your OUTER::s
PerlJam you just wait until an appropriate sequence point before compiling and executing?
ash___ i don't think winxed uses PAST, i think it has its own system for emiting PIR, if i am not mistaken
pmichaud it just means that interactive mode has to work with the grammar a bit more to be able to detect when it has a complete statement. This is somewhat anticipated by the 'moreinput' method in STD.pm
TimToady: yes, OUTER::s are a bit of a problem with this approach. I'm aiming to crawl before running. 18:17
TimToady why not just have the compiler call the evaluator on the sub-tree like you'd do for BEGIN?
pmichaud TimToady: we could potentially have each newly compiled sub duplicate its outer lexical context and then discard the old outer.
TimToady then you don't have to play any games with scopes--it's just there
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pmichaud TimToady: right now we have a problem with BEGIN being able to affect its outer lexical scope as well. 18:18
for similar reasons.
TimToady in p6 BEGIN isn't even required to have a lexical scope
std: BEGIN my $x = 2;
p6eval std 30620: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 113m␤» 18:19
sorear pmichaud: simply using the previous compiled sub as the lexical outer won't work
pmichaud sorear: why not?
sorear because rakudo generates an inner lexical scope
my $x = 2 becomes UNIT_START({ my $x = 2 })
more or less
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pmichaud sorear: yes, why is that a problem? 18:19
sorear because $x is not lexically visible at the level of the UNIT_START 18:20
so it won't be visible in subsequent lines
pmichaud I mean, I can fix the compilation process so that the compiler can designate the correct scope
just a sec
sorear "I" can? You seem to be taking a lot onto yourself
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pmichaud I don't follow that last comment. 18:21
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pmichaud if it helps, s/I/we/ as appropriate. 18:23
sorear ok
pmichaud but it's entirely possible for us to set it up so that the correct block is used as the outer scope 18:24
Juerd "We don't follow that last comment."? Confusing ;)
pmichaud indeed, the simplest way to do it might be to have !UNIT_START set a dynamic variable that says "use the block I received as a parameter as the outer_scope for any subsequent eval" 18:25
(and this can be done entirely without modifying the current AST generation) 18:26
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TimToady is the current AST capable of representing BEGIN my $x = 1; without curlies? 18:28
pmichaud TimToady: the AST, yes. But Parrot isn't currently capable of executing things outside of a lexical context. 18:29
i.e., we always have some sort of (complete) context that we're executing in. Yes, it's a big problem that we've not yet addressed.
rakudo: my $x; BEGIN { $x = 5; }; say $x 18:30
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Symbol '$x' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
sorear should I feel dissuaded from attempting to address this problem?
pmichaud which problem?
sorear lack of protolexpads
pmichaud that would be a very nice problem to have addressed, so no, please do not feel dissuaded. :-) 18:31
TimToady +1
pmichaud but I will say that it will involve going completely around the default Parrot lexicals implementation 18:32
it likely will involve dynlexpads of some sort, and then the compiler will need to be able to merge that dynlexpad into a "normal" lexpad as it gets to the CHECK phase.
PerlJam So ... how much "going around parrot" equals "switching vms"? :) 18:33
pmichaud PerlJam: that remains to be seen :)
sorear pmichaud: I see a problem with your set_outer REPL. 18:35
set_outer needs there to be a call frame for the sub somewhere in order for lexpads to work
this works for 'eval', because the sub that called eval is running (duh) 18:36
this works for !YOU_ARE_HERE, because !YOU_ARE_HERE itself is running (even if the mainline isn't)
this won't work for just passing the previous sub to set_outer the new one
pmichaud sorear: currently Parrot stores the call fram as a property of the sub.
*call frame
so it's available, even after the sub exits.
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sorear what. 18:37
OK.
pmichaud even if we decide not to use that because it's too icky, we can set up a simple call in the mainline code to keep track of the callframe (a-la eval), and do that on every execution, not just interactive ones 18:38
sorear that's a memory leak waiting to happen, but it's good enough for now
pmichaud I agree, it's a memory leak, but it's a parrot design issue.
chromatic has looked at it somewhat extensively and backed away from changes as being pretty involved.
diakopter garners helpful intel from this convo
pmichaud but parrot will need to resolve that eventually. at any rate, we can either store the call frame or use parrot's method of doing it 18:39
*sigh* wife is calling me for some assistance -- I'll be gone another hour or two
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pmichaud bbl 18:40
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sorear doesn't know how to feel about how his ideas get completely redesigned 18:43
diakopter ours is not to question why 18:44
sorear parse error
TimToady mys is but to gather or fail 18:45
sorear parse error
PerlJam sorear: get used to communication through implication and pun around here :)
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TimToady for those following along at home, we've been having allusions to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Charge_of...ade_(poem) 18:46
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mdxi Use Your Allusion 18:46
TimToady the spoon is an allusion
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pmichaud Allusion Randal? 18:47
(ideas completely redesigned) I can probably make the same claim. :) 18:48
(back for a bit.. turns out wife wanted me to be _ready_ to leave in a few minutes) 18:49
TimToady I presume you are likely to miss the phone call
pmichaud actually, probably not. I'll probably be riding in a vehicle.
Paula has an errand to run this afternoon and needs someone to accompany her; she was going to take our son (so I can stay and work), but he's now going to a friend's house so I'm the only one left. 18:50
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pmurias TimToady: re Any.say what's the rationale for the invocant in Any.say being the thing to be printed and in IO.say the invocant being the thing doing the printing 18:53
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pmurias TimToady: sorry if that's excess bikeshedding 18:54
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TimToady I just think that's one of those places where typical users will prefer it to dwtm rather than be perfectly consistent 19:01
colomon "do what TimToday means"? ;)
TimToady most english speakers are used to sorting out the arguments to a verb by meaning anyway
and most verbs are rather heavily overloaded on valences 19:02
colomon (agree 100% with TimToady here, for what it's worth.)
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TimToady nobody writing 42.say is going to expect file descriptor 42 to try to do the IO 19:02
colomon Can Any.say take arguments? 19:03
that is to say, if I say $a.say: blueberry
TimToady it might take an optional IO handle :)
pmichaud alternatively, does IO.say require an argument? 19:04
colomon thinking $a is an IO and it's actually something else, that's an error, right?
TimToady I would tend to think that Any.say wouldn't be looking for a slurpy
pmurias $a being an IO and assuming that's it something that can stringify and calling $a.say would be the quiet error 19:06
TimToady maybe an output handle carps if you stringify it 19:07
colomon If Any.say wants no arguments (or at most an IO object), and IO.say must have an argument, making the double error required to use it wrongly seems unlikely.
TimToady I think this bikeshed lives on a remote desert island. 19:08
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pmurias perl6: $OUT.say(); 19:09
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«Symbol '$OUT' not predeclared in <anonymous>␤current instr.: 'perl6;PCT;HLLCompiler;panic' pc 152 (compilers/pct/src/PCT/HLLCompiler.pir:108)␤»
..elf 30620: OUTPUT«Global symbol "$OUT" requires explicit package name at (eval 122) line 3.␤ at ./elf_h line 5881␤»
..pugs: OUTPUT«␤»
pmurias perl6: $*OUT.say();
p6eval elf 30620, pugs, rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«␤»
colomon rakudo: $*OUT.say 19:10
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«␤»
colomon I'd say it was worth making that not work to avoid confusion. 19:11
TimToady so we want a + slurpy instead of a * slurpy :)
colomon :)
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colomon slurpy where { ?@slurpy } 19:12
TimToady or that
or *$, *@ 19:13
colomon (I assumed your smiley meant + slurpy was a hypothetical, not a language feature I wasn't aware of. :)
TimToady yes, but it's been thought about several times by now
since the * is, in fact, a pattern quantifier, more or less 19:14
ruoso one can always declare :($a, *@a)
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TimToady though it's silly to have to split it into two variables just to get that behavior 19:16
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ruoso there's just one point that holds my opinion... 19:17
*@a might be entirely lazy
TimToady rakudo: multi foo() { say "You're ugly." }; multi foo(*@a) { say ~@a }; foo()
ruoso +@a would require at least one item being evaluated
p6eval rakudo ed2409: OUTPUT«You're ugly.␤»
TimToady multi dispatch already does what we want here though.
ruoso I'd better have :($a, *@a) to make it explicit about the eager evaluation of first item of the capture... 19:19
TimToady I'm not worried, because Perl 6 is not about strict laziness 19:20
we just have mostly lazy and mostly eager, most of the time
and it is erroneous to assume that a lazy list cannot work ahead in batches 19:21
sorear in perl 6, laziness is an operational concept 19:22
you can't generally have _|_ in lists
TimToady we generally try to avoid the bottom of the barrel... :)
but it is a bit FP oriented, insofar as we assume that working ahead in batches doesn't matter if the list is philosophically immutable 19:23
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TimToady I guess Nil is about as close as we get to _|_ 19:25
and even Nil is lazy about deciding whether it's in scalar or list context 19:26
turns into a placeholder arg in item context, but not in list context
and in a parcel, isn't committed yet 19:27
colomon woah, that's actually a big complication for lazy lists, isn't it? 19:28
just occurred to me.
TimToady I suppose Nil's bottomliness is one way to explain why 'my Foo $x = Nil;' works
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colomon any of the examples we just came up with involve getting the first element from the list. 19:28
but if it's a "forget about it" list, that first element is now lost. 19:29
particularly sucky if it's happening in the middle of multi dispatch.
pmichaud colomon: which is why I've been saying it has to do with binding :-)
TimToady that's why binding is a form of pattern matching that can involve backtracking
pmichaud if it's being bound, then the "forget about it" semantic gets changed
colomon pmichaud: but it's not bound until it matches, is it?
pmichaud colomon: attempted binding, then. 19:30
TimToady and it gets more complicated with repeated binding such as map does
colomon but then how can you ever not bind it?
pmichaud colomon: but yes, this is one of the huge complication features of lazy lists :-)
TimToady and I still have to spec capture cursors...
colomon (in a sub call)
I guess there's no reason we can't unshift on lists, so something like that can handle it without binding. 19:33
TimToady unget, but yes 19:35
to the first approximation, all arrays and all lists have (at least potentially) a reified region and a lazy region 19:36
they just differ in API
however, we do have a slight problem if we commit a capture to slurping at some point, and then want to back that out and bind non-slurpy 19:37
maybe candidate ordering precludes this, generally
but maybe not
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sorear bottom = nontermination 19:39
1, 1, 2, (while 1 {}), 3
the categorical/poset model of the lambda calculus is truly a thing of beauty 19:40
hrm. pmichaud's approach seems to require me making two patches, sending them to two trackers, and getting approval twice from two sets of people 19:43
pmichaud ?
sorear HLL::Compiler doesn't live in the rakudo repo 19:44
pmichaud sorear: yes, this is true.
sorear: that's really no different from Rakudo changes that require fixes/improvements to Parrot, though
we do have to strike a balance between language interoperability and the needs of Rakudo itself 19:45
and since nqp-rx and rakudo currently have the same pumpking, it only requires one approval :-) 19:46
sorear what about PCT?
pmichaud that's still part of Parrot, yes.
although I'm the nominal pumpking for that as well 19:47
eventually significant portions of pct may move to nqp-rx ; it's just not a pressing need at the moment
sorear I actually meant PCT::HLLCompiler :/
pmichaud oh, that's definitely moving
I just haven't had time to do it
but HLL::Compiler overrides PCT::Compiler, so changes can easily go there 19:48
it doesn't have to be fixed in PCT::Compiler
er, PCT::HLLCompiler
also, ideally the code for HLL::Compiler should be written in nqp instead of PIR :-)
and, of course, any HLL compiler (e.g., Rakudo) can override methods from HLL::Compiler, and we can see about backporting them into nqp-rx 19:49
(as long as they've been written with backporting in mind, of course)
sorear wonders if all of PCT should be moved to nqp-rx 19:50
following all the conditional jumps in PAST::Compiler gets confusing after a while
pmichaud well, moving PCT (at least PAST) into nqp has been a goal of mine. as I said, it's not a pressing need, since what we have now works fairly well. 19:51
I think the next major thing that ought to be done is to start eliminating pir::opcode() in favor of nqp::opcode() 19:53
that way nqp can decide how best to translate to the underlying vm, instead of requiring PIR directly.
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jnthn is back from talking/pizzaing. 19:54
sorear pmichaud: In your alternate world where neither the parser nor the compiler knows that it's running in the REPL, how does autoprinting work?
pmichaud the interactive mode calls a method on the compiler object to display the results that it received back from the code execution 19:55
self.'autoprint'(result) or something like that
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pmichaud each compiler can then override autoprint to do whatever it thinks is the right thing 19:55
jnthn pmichaud: That sounds quite clean.
sorear So only one value should be printed per loop through the compiler?
pmichaud (and there's a default one that simply stringifies and displays on stdout)
sorear *interactive
pmichaud ? 19:56
"only one value"?
sorear > 2+2; 3+3
4
6
pmichaud oh yes
I think it should only print the result of the input statement
jnthn is a little surprised that prints 4 and 6
pmichaud I don't think it should print the result of all intermediate expressions that might've been there.
jnthn (would have expected just the final result) 19:57
Especially since 2+2; is in Sink context in normal code
pmichaud precisely.
sorear ohhhhh 19:59
you see that as like the inside of a block
the value is the last statement
pmichaud any statement that is not the last statement of a block is in void context.
s/void/sink/
sorear I was seeing it as a semicolon-separated list of statements, each to be (maybe) printed separately
TimToady phone
sorear where autoprint applies to all sink statements 20:00
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pmichaud I wouldn't expect "foo(); 2+3;" to autoprint the return value from foo(), though. 20:00
(and it's in sink context) 20:01
sorear out of curiousity, why does chromatic always blog exactly five days later?
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obra the meeting minutes? 20:01
sorear yes
moritz_ phenny: tell bubaflub gist.github.com/397483 looks good, except it should be .pair.value, not .pair.perl.value (.perl returns a string)
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when bubaflub is around.
obra It's policy that folks on the call get a chance to review them and correct mistakes before they go live 20:02
TimToady to give people a chance to read his transcription and fix up mis-hearings
sorear I see. 20:03
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sorear pmichaud: Should draft2 go into PCT::HLLCompiler, HLL::Compiler, or Perl6::Compiler? 20:06
pmichaud sorear: if you want to just work in Perl6::Compiler for now, that's fine. Just keep in mind that I'd like it to ultimately live in HLL::Compiler :) 20:19
moritz_ pugs: class A { has $!b; method p { :$!b } }; say A.new(b => 5).p.value
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«5␤»
moritz_ wow, not only correct, but actually fast
pugs: class A { has $!b; method p { :$!b } }; say A.new(b => 5).p.key 20:20
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT«b␤»
diakopter heh
yeah in that July 08 blog entry audreyt mentioned she sped up the startup time tremendously
or 09
I don't remember
moritz_ yes, I remember that too
08, more likely 20:21
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sorear pmichaud: So 'interactive' should be reimplemented in HLL::Compiler? Currently, it lives in PCT::HLLCompiler 20:31
Tene did rakudo ever get HLL::Compiler vs PCT::HLLCompiler sorted out? Last I looked, months ago, it was using both in different parts. 20:32
sorear PCT::HLLCompiler --> HLL::Compiler --> Perl6::Compiler
it's an inheritence hierarchy 20:33
Tene when I looked, rakudo created Perl6::Compiler class as a subclass of one in one place and as a subclass of the other elsewhere. I never got around to checking which order it did them in. 20:34
moritz_ current it just seems to inherit form HLL::Compiler 20:35
in src/Perl6/Compiler.pir
Tene You're right, it's not using PCT::HLLCompiler anymore. :) 20:37
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pmichaud it's using PCT::HLLCompiler indirectly 20:47
because HLL::Compiler inherits from PCT::HLLCompiler
sorear: yes, I'd reimplement 'interactive' to do more of what we want 20:48
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[Coke] if you need another language to test this out, partcl is missing its REPL post-nqp conversion. 21:45
(and may have more requirements on prompt changing, incomplete commands, that sort of thing.)
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bubaflub moritz_: should i make skip tests for the other twigils as well? 22:29
phenny bubaflub: 20:01Z <moritz_> tell bubaflub gist.github.com/397483 looks good, except it should be .pair.value, not .pair.perl.value (.perl returns a string)
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lue hello! 22:38
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sorear [Coke]: pmichaud is punting on "incomplete commands" 22:40
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pmichaud I'm punting it to slightly later, yes. 22:41
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pmichaud if someone wants to take a crack at it, I'm in favor of that :-) 22:41
I don't know if STD.pm has a working version yet, but that would be hugely helpful.
sorear pmichaud: I wonder if there's a good way to lift !UNIT_START and friends up to the NQP layer
lue
.oO(interesting, pmichaud went from light green to red in my IRC client)
 22:42
sorear A lot of languages have a concept of pre-seeding the referencing environment
and it's so similar to the repl/eval thing
pmichaud sorear: it's possible, it'd be a method on HLL::Compiler then 22:43
(which gets overloaded by subclasses) 22:44
sorear The main complication is that we would need to require Rakudo + NQP-backend to be loaded when loading precomp'd PIR
pmichaud that's already the case. 22:45
well, where "NQP-backend" is really "HLL::Compiler + Regex + PCT"
pre-comp'd PIR always ends up loading Rakudo, if only to get the setting.
sorear I've heard various people talking about "Setting-NQP". What is this? 22:46
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lue joindiaspora.com/ and I thought we were the only death star. Oh well, at least it's privacy-aware social networking. 23:08
And also like us, it's NYI :)
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bubaflub phenny: tell moritz_: ok. lemme know if i should add similar tests for the other twigils 23:08
phenny bubaflub: I'll pass that on when moritz_ is around.
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lue afk 23:37

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