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Set by moritz_ on 1 September 2010.
echosystm ...and yet an object model requires class members (eg. constructors) just to work at all 00:00
chromatic There's a difference between class *data* and static methods.
echosystm i
diakopter that idea isn't unique to (or concentrated in) the perl community, at all... :)
echosystm i'll agree class data is often mis-used and should be placed elsewhere 00:01
but, i see no problem in class variables that serve to identify the classes
florz echosystm: constructors in the sense of "initializers" can be object methods just as well, in general
echosystm of course, like __init__ in python
but the point is, there is always a class method somewhere (__new__) 00:02
chromatic Doesn't have to be a class method, but I'm not sure why it's a distinction.
diakopter it's only incidentally a class method
florz and if you consider prototype-based stuff as "object systems", it really becomes somewhat difficult to argue that you need class methods ;-)
diakopter __new__ is only a "method" just cuz there's nowhere else to stuff it. it's really just a global (or whatever scope the class has) routine... 00:03
chromatic Unless you take the Perl 6 view of typed Undef prototype objects. 00:04
echosystm i had better get back to work - but a long story short is that nothing will change in regards to class members? 00:05
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chromatic Seems like a design smell to me, but I'm sure you can violate class encapsulation if you work at it. 00:05
echosystm well, a common use for us is persistence 00:06
chromatic I'd use a role for that.
echosystm in other languages, we simply add 4 methods to any object we want to persist - update and delete (instance), load and create (class) 00:07
diakopter is it unfortunately the case that sometimes shortterm design smelliness must be tolerated to achieve whipitupitude, when *using* a language (which i think is to what chromatic was referring).. (as opposed to designing, say, Perl 6)
echosystm in perl, if we want to keep things "the perl way", we have to separate our logic into a "loader" class and a "result" class
chromatic Or use a Persists role.
echosystm well, what we usually do in php is define for example a "TableModel" class, which has a class variable to identify the table 00:08
the update, create, read and delete methods are then just queries to run agains tthat table 00:09
thus, we just subclass our TableModel class and change the table name
chromatic My preference is to use a parametric role.
Though that's only if you need a table name without a well-defined mapping from the class name.
florz echosystm: and that somehow doesn't work with perl(5)? 00:10
echosystm nope, because theres no way for a superclass method to reference subclass package variables 00:11
chromatic Doesn't have to be a variable though.
You get better polymorphism if it isn't.
diakopter use an accessor..
echosystm hmm
interesting
that is a good point 00:12
florz echosystm: Well, as the other say: an accessor is probably the way to go. But sure you can access package variables of the package that your object is blessed as.
chromatic That's the "design smell" point to which we alluded earlier.
echosystm how do you do that florz ?
chromatic If this behavior is a necessary part of your interface, make it a standard part of your interface (without forcing subclasses or delegates or reimplementations to adhere to a specific implementation). 00:13
echosystm sub classMethod { $class = shift; print $class::variable; } something like this obviously doesnt work
diakopter no, but using an accessor that gets/sets a var created in a closure during class declaration ... 00:15
chromatic Something more like sub class_method { my $obj = shift; my $class = Scalar::Util::blessed( $class ) ? ref( $self ) : $self; no strict 'refs'; return ${ $class . '::variable_name' } }
... but the ugliness of that approach argues (to me) against it.
diakopter to steal from modern_perl/chapter_07: { package Cat; use Moose; my $classvar1_; sub classvar1 { return defined $_[0] ? ($classvar1_ = $_[0]) : $classvar1_ } } 00:19
well, stealing "package Cat" :) 00:20
or just hardcode the table names, which it sounds like you'd do. so the method is just overridden. 00:21
urp, those should be $_[1]
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echosystm i see 00:23
florz chromatic: s/\$class/\$obj/ for the latter occurence, I suppose ;-)
or rather the one in the middle ;-) 00:24
echosystm: essentially, you cann find out the package from ref($self), then construct the qualified variable name from that as a string, and use it as a symbolic reference 00:25
echosystm is this how MooseX::ClassAttribute and ClassMethod work?
diakopter gets curious as to which is faster, the symbolic reference construction or the closure access
diakopter has no freaking clue 00:26
echosystm: I dunno, but now you've got me curious about that too...
chromatic The closure should be a lot faster. 00:32
It has the disadvantage that you have to repeat it in every subclass.
diakopter not necessarily, but I see your point; you'd have to repeat it in every subclass if you wanted to make the var "class private" or whatever. 00:35
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chromatic If you want one table per class, you need to make it per-class. 00:36
It's the same as the singleton problem.
diakopter otherwise it's "class protected", to use C# parlance
chromatic That's the worst part of class data: the lack of encapsulation means you're finalizing part of your hierarchy. 00:37
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diakopter yeah; to echosystm's application. these are good points ... is it too late to add discussions of these things to that ch07? 00:38
(if it's not already there; I haven't read the whole ch)
chromatic There's still time, but it's a balance between "Here's how modern Perl OO works" and "Here's how to design programs well.: 00:39
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lichtkind where can i look for learning writing binary binding for parrot? 00:41
plobsing lichtkind: that question is probably better asked on #parrot 00:42
lichtkind plobsing: yes 00:44
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diakopter mruhaha; /me figured out tortoisegit 01:06
github.com/perl6/std/commit/754f724...b72231a769 01:07
moritz_: yeah someone should add these repos to dalek :)
for teh karma
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diakopter sjohnson: IE9 now enumerates any property on a DOM object that has its “enumerable” property descriptor value set to ‘true’. (In other words, enumeration can be programmatically altered.) 01:14
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dalek ecza: 5ceab02 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
[nrx] Reimplement grammars
 01:36
ecza: b199a36 | sorear++ | / (6 files):
[nrx] Reimplement simple cuts
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Buttom_Left hello 01:50
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sorear Hellow 01:51
Buttom_Left perl a good manual in Spanish that I can recommend, that alone with basic manual, but that I have it clear. 01:52
sorear seen araujo
Is that a question? 01:53
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Buttom_Left one is for those who can respond 01:54
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colomon [Coke]: ping? 02:16
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lichtkind good night 02:22
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pythonian4000 Can anyone here help me troubleshoot ilbot2? 02:37
sorear moritz_ could
02:39 jferrero left
DiegoGrez was looking for the same thing for Wikinews 02:40
sorear perl 6? wikinews? is something important going on?
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sorear is out of the loop... 02:41
DiegoGrez ilbot :)
sorear rakudo: "abc" ~~ / $<bob> = [ (.) (.) (.) ] /; say $/.perl 02:45
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«Match.new(␤ from => 0,␤ orig => "abc",␤ to => 3,␤ positional => [␤ Match.new(␤ from => 0,␤ orig => "abc",␤ to => 1,␤ ),␤ Match.new(␤ from => 1,␤ orig => "abc",␤ to => 2,␤ ),␤ Match.new(␤ from => 2,␤ orig => "abc",␤ to => 3,␤ ),␤
..],␤ n…
sorear rakudo: "abc" ~~ / $<bob> = [ (.) (.) (.) ] /; say $<bob>.perl 02:46
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«Match.new(␤ from => 0,␤ orig => "abc",␤ to => 3,␤)␤»
pythonian4000 I have solved most of the issues with missing Perl modules, but the one missing file left is IrcLog.pm. I thought it might be part of Parse::IRCLog, but seems not. 02:51
(Well, it's the only one that Perl cant find at the moment.) 02:52
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masak oh hai, #perl6! 03:06
wow, there's something almost magical about the pre-dawn hours.
pythonian4000 moritz_: I am trying to get an instance of ilbot set up. I have solved most of the issues with missing Perl modules, but the next file that Perl can't find is IrcLog.pm. I thought it might be part of Parse::IRCLog, but seems not. 03:07
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sorear Hello Masak! 03:10
masak pythonian4000: you may of may not be aware that moritz_ is not woken up yet. also, the topic you're addressing prolly belongs in /msg rather in #perl6. 03:11
s/of/or/
pythonian4000 Ah, sorry. Different timezone. Thanks. 03:12
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masak my @directions = (1, -1 X 2, -2), (2, -2 X 1, -1); # that's very cute. from github.com/perl6/perl6-examples/blo...pratomo.pl 03:41
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sorear o/ au|irc 03:45
masak o/ au|irc 03:46
I don't know why, but I'm still not really sure I like 'next' inside 'map' blocks binding to the map block. in my view, 'map' isn't a control structure like 'for' is. 03:47
lue ohai o/
masak and should be treated according to different rules.
hi, lue.
pmichaud masak: I've heard "for is isomorphic with map" so many times I've stopped arguing against it :)
masak I've heard it numerous times as well. 03:48
sorear I don't buy it.
masak I just question the wisdom of it in cases like 'next'.
it doesn't least-surprise for me.
I'd expect 'next' to bind up to the innermost loop, not the map.
sorear masak: 'next' is specced to search the dynamic call stack if there is no innermost lexical loop 03:49
masak and I don't see that as having very much to do with the isomorphism, actually. it's more a question of 'map' not having the execption handlers 'for' has, since only the latter is a control structure.
sorear so if there's a loop in &map, next will be able to bind to it 03:50
(Rakudo doesn't implement the lexical search and always goes directly to the innermost dynamic loop ATM)
masak sorear: 'is there is no innermost lexical loop'. but as soon as there is...?
sorear masak: if there is an innermost lexical loop, next will not bind to for.
masak I think that behaviour sounds flaky to the point of being dangerous.
imagine the bugs we'll be able to produce! :( 03:51
"hm, I move this 'map' out of the loop, and now my program does Very Strange Things..."
sorear S04:71
masak I know what it says.
I'm just ranting about it.
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sorear ok 03:51
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diakopter well, I tried to add all those repos to dalek 03:53
we'll see if they took
masak some big blogger once ranted about exceptions being Evil because they are essentially Action-at-a-Distance. I thought it was a bit extreme. but in this case, I'm prepared to agree. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise by being shown a use case where "lexical lookup, then dynamic lookup" is a sane idea.
diakopter++
also, "hm, I put a loop around this map statement, and now 'next' doesn't work anymore". 03:54
clearly no-one has actually tried to use this "feature".
hugme: hug masak
hugme hugs masak
pmichaud "...it's more a question of 'map' not having the exception handlers 'for' has..." 03:56
I'm not sure I understand.
masak pmichaud: from Perl 5, I'm conditionad when I look at code to associate 'next'/'last'/'redo' with the surrounding loop. 03:57
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masak pmichaud: lexically or dynamically surrounding. 03:57
to me, &map and &grep aren't such loops.
they're functions.
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pmichaud ah 03:58
masak and as a programmer, I don't care how they're implemented inside.
neither should I need to.
pmichaud because right now, &map has those exception handlers
masak right.
as a first approximation, I think control exceptions are the domain of control structures.
pmichaud and you're correct, I haven't quite figured out how to make FIRST, NEXT, LAST, etc. work within map. 03:59
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pmichaud (I'm sure it can be done; just haven't figured out how to do it in our current framework) 04:00
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sorear hasn't figured out how to make FIRST, LAST, NEXT work within -p/-n 04:00
diakopter sigh (at dalek) 04:01
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pmichaud masak: anyway, I'll support the notion that for and map are different. I've argued it before w/little success, though. 04:03
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diakopter ugh. now none of them works 04:04
masak I think the war cry of this political program should be "isomorphism, sure -- but 'map' ain't a control structure, dammit!"
diakopter even with the new one I added, commented out in botnix.conf
how 'bout a specially named map, like mape 04:05
for the one that handles control exceptions
masak also, when is Perl 6 gonna be released, dammit
:)
diakopter: sounds like an interesting thing for a dedicated module to do. 04:06
diakopter ouch. 04:07
masak no offense intended.
I just don't think most people want 'mape'.
diakopter of course. but if only I could count the number of times I've been told that.
masak it's a useful reminder that not everything needs to be core. 04:08
TimToady map is a control structure
and "for" is just a funny looking function 04:09
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masak :( 04:09
TimToady: 'map' is mentioned *once* in S04! and clearly not as a control structure. 04:10
TimToady I'm not interested in building in magical special cases like Perl 5 was full of. I would like users to be able to write their own control structures by dealing with closures as arguments 04:11
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TimToady this is about extensibility and the future, not about what you're used to 04:11
in this case, I think orthogonality should win 04:12
BillN1VUX TimToady: aha thank you. even better on primality.
TimToady wish we could make the series behave a bit better and read my mind...
probably need to factor that into the refactor of ... 04:13
for instance, the fact that 04:15
rakudo: say 2,3,4 ... sqrt(2)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«␤»
TimToady does the right thing, but
rakudo: say 2,3,*+1...sqrt(2)
doesn't 04:16
p6eval rakudo 77a72a:
..OUTPUT«(timeout)011121314151617181920212223242526272829303132333435363738394041424344454647484950515253545556575859606162636465666768697071727374757677787980818283848586878889909192939495969798991001011021031041051061071081091101111121131141151161171181191201211221231241251261271281291301…
BillN1VUX indeed.
TimToady the primes example really wants the first behavior
BillN1VUX yes
TimToady hmm
pmichaud TimToady: (map/for) -- okay, I get it now. And I agree. 04:17
TimToady rakudo: say 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(2)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«␤»
TimToady maybe that's the right way
say 2 %% none 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(2)
or not
rakudo: say 2 %% none 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(2) 04:18
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«none()␤»
TimToady rakudo: say so 2 %% none 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(2)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«1␤»
BillN1VUX although as an old APL hack I await ability to iterate into shaped arrays so I can recreate the classic APL parallel computation by column reduction
nice 04:19
TimToady you mean treat the array as flat?
sorear TimToady: in while ... map ( { ... next ... } ), can I do something to make next target the map instead of the while? 04:20
BillN1VUX i mean I want 1..$n X%% 1..$n in a shape:($n;$n) square matrix
pmichaud sorear: ...use a label? 04:21
TimToady sure, if we had loop lablels
sorear pmichaud: How can I label a map call?
TimToady s/lel/el/ 04:22
tylercurtis Whether or not map should handle next is a different issue from whether functions in general can handle control exceptions, isn't it?
diakopter sorear: I agree that question gets at the matter better
pmichaud sorear: I suspect the same way we end up labeling a for call.
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masak tylercurtis: that's a good point. 04:22
tylercurtis: but for and map are isomorphic.
pmichaud (no, I don't know what that is yet.... and thus Rakudo doesn't have labels :0)
TimToady next can be a method on any dynamically locatable loop
pmichaud correct.
BillN1VUX looks like when all of S09 is in, APL rho operator will be creatable, and I can recreate that sieve 04:23
TimToady we usually call that reshaping
BillN1VUX that's what APL called it too
TimToady maybe we should call it rhoshaping :)
BillN1VUX rho was mnemonic for reshaping iirc
TimToady I think something like that is better spelled out with a word, huffmanly speaking
BillN1VUX not gonna argue 04:24
TimToady that's the problem with APL, everything is huffmanized to one char (to the first approximation)
BillN1VUX the curse and the joy both
TimToady for some pretty fancy definition of "char"
BillN1VUX heh
golf is easy when every 04:25
TimToady the none 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt $n still bogs down somewhere in test, dunno why
BillN1VUX thing is on UNICODE point
TimToady and if we all want to get the most out of 140-char tweets, we'd all better learn Chinese or some such 04:26
masak TimToady: and combine graphemes.
TimToady maybe we can teach phones about NFG :) 04:27
sorear lz77 >> chinese
TimToady tempting
pmichaud TimToady: I'm not following the none 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt $n fully -- what are you trying to do?
(I'm a little distracted atm, I admint) 04:28
*admit
TimToady 2,3,5,7 ... is supposed to only pay attention to the 3,5,7, and intuit the *+2.
sorear TimToady: I can't seem to find the part of S04 dealing with bare "next;". Does it go for the innermost lexical loop, as I first thought, or is it automatically dynamic?
BillN1VUX It's at ? so 5 %% none 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(5) that it hangs
TimToady floor helps there but then it hangs after 15 for some reason 04:29
pmichaud rakudo: say ~(2,3,5,7 ... 14) # checking 04:30
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«2 3 5 7 9 11 13␤»
TimToady rakudo: say ~(2,3,5,7 ... 16)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«2 3 5 7 9 11 13 15␤»
pmichaud I'm wondering if none needs parens
TimToady shouldn't
it's a listop
pmichaud so is ..., iirc 04:31
TimToady should be looser than ...
pmichaud okay
I'm not sure we have that in rakudo atm
looking
BillN1VUX It's not none's fault. say $_ for 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(7) # infinite series 04:32
TimToady parens don't help
pmichaud oh, the series never crosses the endpoint
rakudo: say $_ for 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(100); 04:33
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«2␤3␤5␤7␤9␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say $_ for 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(50);
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«2␤3␤5␤7␤»
pmichaud rakudo: say $_ for 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(10);
p6eval rakudo 77a72a:
..OUTPUT«(timeout)␤11␤13␤15␤17␤19␤21␤23␤25␤27␤29␤31␤33␤35␤37␤39␤41␤43␤45␤47␤49␤51␤53␤55␤57␤59␤61␤63␤65␤67␤69␤71␤73␤75␤77␤79␤81␤83␤85␤87␤89␤91␤93␤95␤97␤99␤101␤103␤105␤107␤109␤111␤113␤115␤117␤119␤121␤123␤125␤127␤129␤131␤133␤135␤137␤139␤141␤143␤145␤147␤149␤151␤153␤155␤157␤159␤1
pmichaud rakudo: say $_ for 2,3,5,7 ... sqrt(16);
TimToady O_o
p6eval rakudo 77a72a:
..OUTPUT«(timeout)␤11␤13␤15␤17␤19␤21␤23␤25␤27␤29␤31␤33␤35␤37␤39␤41␤43␤45␤47␤49␤51␤53␤55␤57␤59␤61␤63␤65␤67␤69␤71␤73␤75␤77␤79␤81␤83␤85␤87␤89␤91␤93␤95␤97␤99␤101␤103␤105␤107␤109␤111␤113␤115␤117␤119␤121␤123␤125␤127␤129␤131␤133␤135␤137␤139␤141␤143␤145␤147␤149␤151␤153␤155␤157␤159␤1
TimToady sure looks like a bug to me 04:34
pmichaud what should happen there?
BillN1VUX that will suppress whole series, but won't emit one and stop.
TimToady rakudo: .say for 2,(3,5,7 ... sqrt 16)
pmichaud (I agree it's a bug. I don't see what part of the spec applies.)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: 04:35
..OUTPUT«(timeout)␤11␤13␤15␤17␤19␤21␤23␤25␤27␤29␤31␤33␤35␤37␤39␤41␤43␤45␤47␤49␤51␤53␤55␤57␤59␤61␤63␤65␤67␤69␤71␤73␤75␤77␤79␤81␤83␤85␤87␤89␤91␤93␤95␤97␤99␤101␤103␤105␤107␤109␤111␤113␤115␤117␤119␤121␤123␤125␤127␤129␤131␤133␤135␤137␤139␤141␤143␤145␤147␤149␤151␤153␤155␤157␤159␤1
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TimToady I need to stop putting off the rewrite of the ... spec, I guess 04:36
diakopter rakudo: .say for 2,3,(5,7,9 ... sqrt(10));
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«2␤3␤»
BillN1VUX hard for a generator ... limit to inspect to the left of the generator isn't it ? 04:37
rakudo: .say for 2,3,(5,7,9 ... sqrt(2));
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«2␤3␤»
pmichaud actually, the ... generator has access to the entire lhs (unless parenthesized)
BillN1VUX of course what we need is ()
TimToady yes, or 2 comes out not prime 04:38
BillN1VUX so it could, if the spec said to
?
diakopter :)
04:38 pythonian4000 is now known as pythonian4000afk
TimToady well, not if the 2,3 are outside the parens, of course 04:38
BillN1VUX 2 is the only even prime, hence it is the oddest prime. 04:39
TimToady and it comes before all the others, so it's not even that way either
diakopter it's even the oddest even 04:40
TimToady I am so tempted to just build in 2,3,5 ... * :)
pmichaud I've thought about that also :-)
BillN1VUX build in prime sequence ?
pmichaud but if you're doing that, just call it @prime :-)
TimToady which doesnt absolve us of the other problem
but then we're forced to memoize it 04:41
unless we implement the de-memoization function on arrays that are known to be constants :)
"now they've used this @primes 3 times, so maybe we better not throw it away this time..." 04:42
or just make constant arrays GCable if you're low on memory
diakopter heh. then they could be lazy and weak. 04:43
TimToady I am looking forward to: constant @series = series_generator()
pmichaud that's likely to show up sooner rather than later :) 04:44
TimToady so the compiler could actually look at the usage patterns and decide whether to memoize it
infinite constants, yum
probably need to sneak repeating fractions in there somewhere too :) 04:45
BillN1VUX 2,3,5 is not uniquely primes, could also be Fib(n+2) and likely others
TimToady constant pi = how_many_digits_do_you_want_today;
yes, but we don't recognized fib 04:46
BillN1VUX yes, all the good constants are real
TimToady so you imagine
BillN1VUX yes but would be bad to recognize Fib(n+2) as primes 04:47
34 is not prime ...
2 3 5 7 11 ... and 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 ... are distinctly different 04:48
TimToady we should reserve auto-dwim for series that are useful but difficult to write a function for
fib doesn't qualify
BillN1VUX ok
TimToady course, neither do evens/odds under that criterion :)
BillN1VUX just saying autowim needs to NOT catch on too early
TimToady we discussed various approaches, and decide minimal was best, since you could always name a function for the fancy stuff 04:49
such as functions from a catalog 04:50
BillN1VUX right
TimToady but I think 2,3,5 might just be one that everyone recognizes as primes
the real question is which serieses we're used to recognizing by exemplar rather than function
BillN1VUX just commenting on "I am so tempted to just build in 2,3,5 ... * " that maybe should be 2,3,5,7,11 ... * to be safe 04:51
TimToady 2,4,6 and 1,3,5 certainly qualify under that
and maybe 2,3,5
BillN1VUX 2,3,5 being a subsequence of TWO famous sequences is not Obvious 04:52
TimToady but not the start of two famous sequences, unless you start playing with your fib initial values
BillN1VUX 2,3,5,7 could be 2,(3,5,7 ... * )
Mathematicians flub with Fib init values regularly 04:53
TimToady yes, they flub with lotsa things that mere mortals think are pretty nailed down
BillN1VUX and shifting a sequence forward n steps is also frequently done in applied math applications 04:54
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TimToady well, I suspect intuiting should be limited to the first three in any case, so it's really 2,3,5 or nothing 04:54
BillN1VUX nice thing about Fib is you can start in the middle
then it's not safe 04:55
pmichaud I really like series, but there are times when I think we're a bit too high on the dwimminess part (more)
if we need it, @primes is much more obvious than 2,3,5 ... *
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pmichaud or even just primes() as a function 04:56
BillN1VUX and @primes can be in Math::NumberTheory
so those who don't need it don't have to lose a reserved word that they might use for whatever their prime datum is 04:57
TimToady doesn't really matter if it's in an outer lexical scope, they can always hide it
BillN1VUX building it in would kinda defeat the fun of golfing the rosetta anyway
TimToady point 04:58
pmichaud if it's useful enough to build into ..., it's useful enough to be @primes :-)
BillN1VUX As I said, I really want to do it with >>%%<< not none(), although Larry'y readability comment is fabulous. 04:59
that or a Scheme-ish cached stream iterator that uses all prior primes to compute the next 05:00
diakopter ooo 05:01
BillN1VUX I kind of dislike the none() leaking out of prime(). Is that allowed incase input was itself a superposition eg any ( $low .. $hi) ? 05:02
otherwise I'd collapse the wave function with a ' return ? ' 05:03
sorear TimToady: Exactly what values are legal to return from method foo() intended to be used as <.foo> ? 05:04
TimToady Cursors 05:05
BillN1VUX well so much for a quick email check and to bed. I knew getting into Rosetta Code would be a time sink ...
sorear TimToady: What about List with Cursors? Array with Cursors? Nil? Parcel?
TimToady sure, list of cursors, which can be empty 05:06
kinda silly to put cursors into an array, generally
BillN1VUX ( fyi for those who missed it upthread, reason I'm suddenly interested in Primes is the Boston.pm Rakudo demo next week. Gotta grind my Perl6 is lovechild of APL and Prolog axe a little. ) 05:07
sorear is trying to see just how generic the cursor-list-iterator-thing needs to be
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BillN1VUX generic enough so the rho operator on www.dlugosz.com/Perl6/web/APL.html will work 05:08
?
sorear BillN1VUX: I'm talking about the p6regex implementation 05:09
BillN1VUX ahh, regex not array.
I saw work on S09 was spinning up and assumed those was iterators you meant. nevermind. 05:10
TimToady course we iterate lists and arrays similarly, but such cursors usually only return a single new cursor, unlike regex, that typically blow up 05:11
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masak where in the spec does it say "map is a control structure"? where in the spec does it say "for and map are isomorphic"? 05:11
S32/Containers paint 'map' as a very ordinary function.
s/paint/paints/
sorear S04 and S06 try to paint control structures as ordinary functions 05:12
I still have no clue how slurpy blocks are supposed to be implemented, fwiw 05:13
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BillN1VUX it's all ordinary. when you explain all the DWIMery, it's not magic anymore. which is why children are not allowed on DisneyWorld backstage tours. 05:15
masak right. I just don't want bad magic to happen to innocent people. 05:16
BillN1VUX heh
good night all. 05:17
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lue [stupid question time replay] It's not mentioned much in S26, but is the Pod6:: organization system absolutely necessary for an external program? 05:23
masak lue: is your question "if I implement Pod, do I have to use the class hierarchy?" 05:25
sorear lue: Your question doesn't make sense to me.
masak if it is, I'd say "no". you could implement Pod and not use any classes at all. 05:26
sorear Also, please don't write a standalone Pod6 implementation, we already have two very good ones
masak with that said, once you reach the point where you can do introspection, it'll be difficult to follow spec without something very much like those classes.
sorear one of them is used to generate the perl6 book pdf
masak sorear: that is news to me. I thought that was POD. 05:27
masak does a double take at the book
sorear actually it's "PseudoPOD", a "dialect of POD for writing books", which bears a more than passing resemblance to Pod6 05:28
masak ok, fair enough.
I can see why you'd say that.
sorear they use different table markup, and only one of them has "=head0", but beyond that they appear to be the same
masak though '=end for' isn't valid Pod6. 05:29
and there doesn't seem to be an abbreviated block form.
lue I probably would end up doing some sort of hierarchy, I was just wondering if I had to use exactly what was described. 05:31
sorear lue: In practice what will probably happen is that you or me will implement *some* hierarchy, then masak++ will get a grant to rewrite S26 to reflect reality 05:33
masak lue: again, you'll find the answers to that in the areas of introspection.
S26 already (mostly) reflects the reality of TheDamian's CPAN module.
05:34 Axius left
masak also, I sincerely hope that as soon as I start my grant with the in-Rakudo Pod support, people like lue who want to write external tools, will join forces with me in some sense. 05:34
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dalek ecza: 705c3d8 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
[nrx] Reimplement brackets
 05:37
ecza: 6d0d084 | sorear++ | / (6 files):
[nrx] Implement subrule calls
ok: 2f813e9 | masak++ | src/classes-and-objects.pod:
[classes-and-objects] de-workarounded fixed #69240
masak my first book commit in ages.
05:37 pythonian4000afk is now known as pythonian4000
masak I expect to do many more this week. starting with an enums chapter, finally. 05:37
sorear I like the way that most of my [nrx] commits are delete-biased 05:38
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lue masak: I'll probably end up joining forces with you, by accident if not on purpose :) 05:39
masak lue: :) 05:41
tylercurtis masak: what's this about enums? 05:45
masak tylercurtis: there was a long-standing memory-related bug that prevented a patch I had from being applicable without segfaulting Rakudo in some (common) cases. 05:46
tylercurtis: now it's fixed.
also, I have this poker-hand example using enums that I'd like to put in the book. but it needs the patch.
so my plan for this week is (1) re-review the patch, (2) apply it, (3) write the chapter. 05:47
the re-review is needed because pmichaud had some good comments on the original patch, which triggered some new ideas.
[backlog] interesting how the 'class-bound variables' discussion keeps resurfacing. 05:52
people want those variables to be inherited, and the current mechanisms don't provide that. 05:54
tylercurtis Also interesting how often the planned use-case turns out not to need class data, but just class methods.
masak maybe the advice should be to use methods for that.
sorear masak: but the current mechanisms *do* provide that
masak with something like the slogan "data doesn't do method dispatch" to go with it.
sorear: in what sense? 05:55
sorear our $.foo; defines an inheriting foo method backed by a class variable
masak indeed.
sorear our $.foo; in a subclass overrides it
masak aye.
sorear I even mentioned this earlier, but I was ignored
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masak it should be enough, and perhaps should be underlined more. 05:56
tylercurtis sorear: I saw that. Thanks for pointing that out.
tylercurtis didn't know about that.
masak maybe people stare themselves blind at the variable not inheriting.
the private attribute, that is.
sorear I don't really like $!foo, fwiw 05:58
it feels like a big abstraction leak
you should have to use the accessor, even in the defining class
masak what if the accessor is readonly? 05:59
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masak I think I agree that, in the general case, private access in public methods should be discouraged. 05:59
sorear masak: that's really the point
if I define a readonly attribute, I want a readonly attribute 06:00
not an attribute that I can accidentally set in some way
masak I disagree.
it makes a lot of sense to restrict attribute access to the class itself.
tylercurtis Sometimes, I want an attribute that's readonly internally as well as externally, but I also often don't.
sorear It makes sense to allow both ways 06:01
I find that readonly-everywhere is how I normally want my attributes, and think it should be default ;)
masak :)
tylercurtis sorear: it's all that Haskell going to your brain. :)
masak sorear: you just have to train yourself to use the dot, always. 06:02
tylercurtis I would be in favor of a way to make an attribute internally even from within the class. I'm not sure I'm in favor of making that the default, though. 06:03
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lue The way I understand it [correct me when I'm wrong], when declared, $.a makes a public variable that can be accessed from beyond the class itself, and $!a makes a private variable that can't. When you use it, $.a goes through the variable's accessor, while $!a goes straight to the variable. 06:14
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dalek ecza: 773fb58 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
[nrx] Reimplement :sigspace
 06:20
ecza: 91d975d | sorear++ | / (4 files):
[nrx] Reimplement / { } /
ecza: fe86829 | sorear++ | / (2 files):
[nrx] Reimplement $/ and $¢
ecza: b2c626c | sorear++ | / (3 files):
[nrx] Reimplement character classes
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masak blogged: use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40524 06:30
lue masak++ for a good post [ I do believe it's the shortest post I've ever seen you make :) ] 06:33
masak It was shorter in my mind. :) 06:34
lue I have to say it feels... strange now that the pugs repo is gone. 06:38
masak it'll take a while getting used to, I bet. 06:39
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lue
.oO(I bet it's a bit like how the Magratheans felt when they had to split Pangea for the better.)
 06:42
pmichaud I'm having to update all of my browser shortcuts. :-) 06:43
masak++ # a very appropriate.... epitaph 06:44
the pugs repo definitely deserves recognition.
lue Has perlcabal.org/syn been updated ?
pmichaud lue: there are lots of things that need updating, alas. 06:45
lue was the exact time the repo taken down mentioned? 06:46
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lue The Pugs Repository (svn.pugscode.org), deceased (with honors), September 4th, 2010. May he rest peacefully in /dev/null . 06:51
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pmichaud lue: I think the time can be deduced from the #perl6 log. 06:53
lue yeah. .oO(about 5% of me wants to put an EPITAPH file in Mu or somewhere else) 06:57
sorear but Mu isn't dead
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moritz_ good morning 06:59
pmichaud o/
moritz_ still awake? 07:01
lue Still, it feels too significant to say `it happened; let's move on' and move on. 07:02
pmichaud still awake, yes. 07:03
...but probably not for long.
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lue afk 07:09
tylercurtis It looks as though Rakudo spectest "definitely lost" approximately 132,738 bytes on average per test. 07:10
moritz_ tylercurtis: iirc rakudo skips global destruction, to avoid the inferior runloop problem on exit 07:11
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chromatic It shouldn't, if it uses the ./perl6 binary. 07:12
tylercurtis is finally getting around to trying to analyze the valgrind spectest results (using Perl 5 this time) after realizing that Rakudo just can't handle that much data as of yet.
moritz_ note the 'exit 0' in src/Perl6/Compiler.pir line 230 07:13
does parrot garbage-collect when the exit opcode is called?
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tylercurtis runs a test to check whether Rakudo indeed circumvents global destruction. 07:24
moritz_ tylercurtis: you can also try to comment out that 'exit 0', and see if it make a difference 07:25
chromatic I'm pretty sure exit 0 has no bearing on global destruction. 07:27
moritz_ so parrot does a normal teardown when it sees an 'exit 0' ?
tylercurtis Parrot throws a CONTROL_EXIT exception when it sees an 'exit 0'. 07:28
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tylercurtis has no idea how that is handled, though. 07:29
chromatic Unless you crash or call POSIX _exit(), you'll hit Parrot_really_destroy().
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chromatic From there, global destruction occurs if you have a YES_PLEASE_REALLY_DESTROY flag set. I forget the name, but pbc_to_exe enables it. 07:30
tylercurtis PARROT_DESTROY_FLAG perhaps?
07:31 echosystm left
chromatic That's right. 07:34
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masak fellow gets two Perl 6 algorithms and one complaint into a tweet: twitter.com/philandstuff/status/23126569516 07:46
oh, and one piece of praise, too.
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rhebus morning 07:48
mathw that's not really a complaint as a little impatience
we could call Rakudo 1.0 if we wanted
but that wouldn't make it any faster or more complete
masak nod. 07:49
mathw Hi rhebus
rhebus I'm getting strange behaviour from gather/take. I imagine I just don't understand it. gist.github.com/566759 - three different take operands, three different results
take $k vs take +$k vs take 0+$k
masak of course it's the things "1.0" implies he really wants.
rhebus: you've discovered a known flaw of the current take. 07:50
it's supposed to be 'decontainerized' upon take, but currently isn't.
rhebus aha, so all three expressions should give the same result then?
(the correct result (3 3 5))? 07:51
what does "decontainerization" mean anyway? 07:53
pmichaud currently "take" actually takes $k as a container
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pmichaud so if something subsequently changes the value of $k, then it's value appears to have changed in whatever it took 07:53
rhebus so correct perl 6 behaviour is for take to take the value of $k is it? 07:54
pmichaud yes
rhebus ok
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tylercurtis nopaste.snit.ch/23241 # file-level numbers from the valgrind spectest backtraces. 07:59
Either tomorrow or Tuesday, I'll work on function- and line-level data.
And then look at which call graphs lost memory. 08:00
masak tylercurtis++ 08:01
chromatic I'm sure it's the method cache. 08:04
Some packfile annotations.
tylercurtis For now, good night, #perl6. 08:06
masak 'night, tylercurtis. dream of memory-tight executions. 08:12
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masak likes both the alternatives at www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=160999 and the distribution of votes 08:13
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masak though I note now that that poll is from 2002. a more innocent age. that explains the lack of vitriol in the comments. 08:14
moritz_ I guess you know www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=852336 ?
masak actually, I didn't. thanks. 08:15
oh wait, I've read it before. I recognize the comments. :) 08:16
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sorear \o/ 08:31
Result: PASS
moritz_ niecza passes the spectest suite? :-)
masak :) 08:32
sorear moritz_: nah, it's own tests
moritz_ still \o/ :-)
dalek ecza: 39a55eb | sorear++ | / (5 files):
[nrx] Reinstate LTM
ecza: 2eff169 | sorear++ | / (6 files):
[nrx] Reinstate protoregexes and <sym>
ecza: cdc7790 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
[nrx] Resore lookahead assertions
sorear after ~completely rewriting the regex system
masak the trick is to have a small test suite :)
sorear 406 tests versus ~30,000
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tadzik good morning 08:35
masak o/
tadzik oh, masak!
masak: I passed my exam \o/ 08:36
masak tadzik: \o/
sorear speaking of testsuites...
tadzik I can hack now :)
masak tadzik: I passed mine, too! \o/
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tadzik yay \o/ 08:36
masak \o/
tadzik now let's shamelessly play Druid :)
masak oh, you're planning to hack on Druid? I'm glad. 08:37
tadzik: want access to the commits I've made so far to make it run under the new master?
tadzik oh well
masak: I'll fork it and try
masak tadzik: here they are, for what it's worth: github.com/masak/druid/commits/ng-compat 08:38
I remember getting as far as getting the tests running and failing.
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moritz_ rakudo: #= 08:45
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: ( no output )
moritz_ rakudo: 1; #= 08:46
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: ( no output ) 08:47
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moritz_ rakudo: 1; #= foo bar 08:47
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Whitespace character is not allowed as a delimiter at line 22, near " foo bar"␤»
moritz_ std: 1; #= foo bar
tadzik masak: why the empty deps.proto file?
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 114m␤»
masak tadzik: it used to be non-empty.
moritz_ looks like a rakudobug to me 08:48
masak moritz_: it is.
I *think* it's in RT somewhere.
tadzik: Druid used to depend on Web.pm 08:49
tadzik my Rakudo seems to dislike #=
moritz_ tadzik: see above :-)
tadzik Druid compiles only without =
a'right
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masak tadzik: are you compiling off the ng-compat branch? 08:50
tadzik oh-ho, ufo bug? 08:51
masak: yes
make: *** No rule to make target `blib/lib/Druid/Webapp.pir', needed by `build'. Stop.
masak tadzik: re-run ufo.
moritz_ I had a fresh ufo run in the ng-compat branch, and it compiled fine after I removed those #=
sjn hey guys 08:52
tadzik running tests. masak: are you commiting this fixed #=?
hej sjn
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sjn are there any good "Perl 6 demo" pages out there? 08:53
masak tadzik: I'll investigate, yes.
someone is welcome to fix Rakudo, too :)
tadzik :)
sjn: try.rakudo.org maybe?
sjn demo pages, as in "places where perl 6 newbies can get a quick overview w/examples on what it's all about" 08:54
tadzik it's not complete, but you can give it a try
oh
then yes, there are many :) Are you a Perl 5 programmer?
sjn I am, but this isn't for me :) 08:55
tadzik szabgab.com/perl6.html#screencast -- if you lke screencasts
sjn is preparing a stand/booth at JavaZone, to create some Perl visibility in the Java crowd
tadzik I find moritz_++ Perl 5 to 6 articles excellent. If you have some time on your hands, a Perl 6 book is nice too 08:56
tadzik thinks about extending perl6.org/documentation/ a bit
masak sjn: you should definitely chack out the book and the Perl 6 advent calendar. 08:57
sjn masak: I'm actually looking for more of a "they, I didn't know Perl6 could do that" page 08:58
very short, attention grabbing, overview
masak I wrote a blog post with such examples a while back.
hold on.
sjn ...to give all those Java n00bs motvation to dig a little further :)
sorear niecza has :: now
masak use.perl.org/~masak/journal/40459
sorear this would have been unthinkable before last week's regex overhaul 08:59
tadzik how does one use named regexes in current Rakudo? I always forgot
sjn masak: that's cool
moritz_ my regex foo { }; /<&foo>/
sjn masak: would you mind updating that one and putting it somewhere with a nice url? :) 09:00
tadzik oh, easy. Thanks moritz_
masak sjn: updating? in what way?
sjn (actually, having a text like that at try.rakudo.org would be really cool)
masak sjn: I could put it on masak.org if that helps you.
not sure what you count as a 'nice url'.
sjn masak: updating = check if it's all still good, add some of the more recent examples, and perhaps some of the really cool ones (where you can see how succinnct petl 6 can be) 09:02
masak it's quite recent. I'm fairly sure all code in there still works.
sjn nice url = short, rememberable url suited for putting on a poster/wall/other very visible place
masak would a tinyurl be enough :) they're customizable. 09:03
moritz_ perl6.org/showoff
sjn heheh
perl6.org/cool
masak moritz_: 'showoff' as a noun has some, um, negative connotations :)
dalek ecza: 83c3bc3 | sorear++ | / (4 files):
Implement :: and :::
baest or perl6.org/OMGhowcool
sjn try.rakudo.org is nice though
masak or just 'omg' :)
sjn hehehehh
masak aye. ash++ 09:04
sjn omg.perl6.org
masak :D
+1
tadzik heh, that's actually nice
sjn (paired with wtf.perl.org? :)
tadzik that'd be golf
masak maybe with 'omfsm.perl6.org' for the pastafarians out there.
sjn hehe 09:05
tadzik . o O ( I have to alias maek to make in my shell )
moritz_ it all depends... if you want a single page in perl6.org layout, perl6.org/omg is good
sorear the generated regex code for the JSON::Tiny grammar is 10-20x smaller (!)
sjn who does one prod in order to get that up and running before wednesday?
moritz_ if you want many pages with your own layout, a subdomain is much better
in either case, I might be able to assist 09:06
tadzik Nominal type check failed for parameter '$m'; expected Match but got Proxy instead
↑ I need a grammar wizard
sjn moritz_: that would be awesome
tadzik or a regex wizard in this case
sjn is really swamped in organizing the other details of the stand
masak I'd like this format for an omg.perl6.org page: www.runciter.net/potion/
tadzik sorear: niecza can compile and run JSON::Tiny?
moritz_ tadzik: means that you've accessed a non-existing part of an array or hash
and try to pass it to something that expects a Match 09:07
tadzik hmm
sorear tadzik: a slightly mutilated version of it
tadzik that's ($m<&col_letter>)
sorear: sounds great
oh wait, that's something else 09:08
moritz_ tadzik: if you want it to capture, you need <col_letter=&col_letter>
yes, that's fugly
tadzik yeah, that was this thing I keep forgettnig
sjn moritz_: shall we aim for omg.perl6.org?
tadzik but I think it's about (Match $m) in the signature actually
moritz_ and then accessing $m<col_lettere>
sjn: I would have suggested to start with a single page, and only if it becomes too big we move it to a subdomain 09:09
less work to get started
sjn moritz_: I was more thinking about establishing a url that's permanent enough to put on print 09:10
tadzik moritz_: is it supposed to be fixed sooner than later?
sjn (we're printing wall sections tomorrow, and a short-and-sweet url would be nice, especially if we can use it for other purposes, and next year :)
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sjn moritz_: if you're up for it, we need to decide on the URL (and stick with that one), and get a basic text up on that URL (based on your blog post) before wed 08-sep-2010, at 06:00 UTC 09:14
moritz_: give me a go and an URL if you're up for it :) 09:15
a* URL
masak tadzik: pushed comments fix to the ng-compat branch. 09:19
tadzik okay 09:20
fixing regexes-methods is a bit over my head I'm afraid 09:23
sorear niecza is now ~6 times slower than viv
need to, uh, optimize it now 09:24
tomorrow
sorear out
masak tadzik: that's where I got stuck as well. I suspect taking a step back and remembering the actual purpose will be required. :/ 09:27
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sjn moritz_: ping? 09:36
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moritz_ sorry, had to run 09:54
moritz_ backlogs
sjn: ok, let's say omg.perl6.org. I'll set up the virtual host later today 09:55
sjn moritz_: excellent
sjn sends a mail to the designer. :) 09:56
tadzik what would you say about making some mess on perl6.org/documentation/? I'm thinking about diving the links to 2 or 3 sections -- one for absolute newcomers, maybe one for Perl 5 programmers, and one with tips and tricks for people knowing their way around. So one, like sjn, will just open the page and immediately see what he's looking for, without wondering what is what 09:59
moritz_ tadzik: +1 10:00
tadzik masak: by the way, the methods in Druid::Base need to be has, not our
moritz_: I'll need some html wizard assistance, but I can write the content meh-self
s/write/organize/ 10:01
masak tadzik: yes. but that's not the only change required.
tadzik masak: yeah but that's a start :)
moritz_ tadzik: just group it as you want. There are two columns available, so two of the three sections will need to share a column
tadzik moritz_: where is it in the pugs^Wgithub repo? 10:02
moritz_ tadzik: perl6/perl6.org path source/documentation/index.html
tadzik yeah, got it 10:03
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tadzik what is Onyx Neon Press book? 10:11
moritz_ Using Perl 6
tadzik leave just this? 10:12
moritz_ renaming it would be better
tadzik I didn't know what the suffix is about
moritz_ Onyx Neon Press is our publisher
and that was probably written before we had a title
araujo getting back to his home within 2 days!
sorear, you were pinging me earlier? :P 10:13
tadzik is u4x dead or just moved? 10:24
moritz_ both :-) 10:25
it's in the mu repo for now
tadzik :)
jnthn Good afternoon #perl6
tadzik to remove it for a while, comment out?
jnthn is back from vacation :-)
tadzik yayitsjnthn!
moritz_ should eventually become its own repo
lol it's jnthn
tadzik moritz_: so remove the link now?
moritz_ tadzik: works for me 10:26
tadzik how about perl6-examples? They don't really work on recent Rakudo, do they? 10:27
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moritz_ some do, some don't 10:29
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tadzik how do I "compile" the page? I have to have mowyw installed somewhere, right? 10:31
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tadzik alright: tjs.azalayah.net/online/index.html -- suggestions? 10:44
There's only one thing for Perl 5 comers, so I decided not to make it a separate section 10:46
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tadzik tjs.azalayah.net/docs.html -- a bit reorganized stuff. Come on guys, where is the criticism? :) 11:01
bbkr Where can I find spectests now? They were removed from Mu git repo 11:03
11:03 smash joined
smash hello everyone 11:04
masak jnthn! \o/
jnthn: how was vacation?
tadzik bbkr: github.com/perl6/roast I think
bbkr tadzik: thanks 11:05
tadzik bbkr: now what do you think about github.com/perl6/roast ? :)
oops
I meant tjs.azalayah.net/docs.html
jnthn masak! \o/ 11:06
masak: vacation was very nice, thanks.
masak: Lots of great nom.
A little wet now and then.
:-)
masak wet nom?
jnthn No, wet weather. :P
masak ah :)
jnthn tries to catch up with some of what's happened while he's been away 11:07
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bbkr tadzik: very nice, bookmarked :) 11:09
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ruiwk sorry...anyone develope iphone apps b4 ? 11:13
masak jnthn: TimToady briefly considered adding for loops in signatures. :)
frettled tadzik: there seems to be a problem with line spacing and the dots under links; the dots touch the top of the text on the following line. 11:14
tadzik: tested with Safari and Firefox under MacOS
smash any nice way to write something like: multi f(@list where {+@list == 0}) { () } ? 11:16
*nicer
frettled tadzik: apart from those nitpicks, good work! 11:17
masak smash: multi f([]) { () } 11:19
tadzik frettled: I wasn't touching the html/css stuff, I was just reorganizing the content 11:20
smash masak: will that one also be called for: my @a = (); ?
tadzik perl6.org/documentation/ isn't very straightforward to a newcomer imho
masak smash: provided I understand your question: yes, it will. 11:21
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smash masak: hmm, let me test and example 11:21
*an example
frettled tadzik: it definitively isn't
masak smash: 'my @a;' and 'my @a = ();' mean the same thing, unless you already have an initialized @a in that scope.
tadzik frettled: hence my reorganizations
frettled tadzik: perhaps it could improve even more by splitting the headers into separate boxes?
tadzik masak, jnthn, moritz_, what do you think? To commit, or not to commit? 11:22
smash masak: it seems to work nicely, thank you
tadzik frettled: that's a work for a html wizard :)
frettled: but that sounds more than good
frettled :)
11:22 stepnem left
masak tadzik: you have my heartfelt approval. 11:23
frettled Maybe I should take a look at that, I'm ill and home from work, so why not … :)
moritz_ tadzik: commit
masak frettled: aww. krya på dig.
tadzik lolpushed
masak .oO( both lolpush and lolpop are O(n)... ) 11:24
frettled masak: tack!
tadzik moritz_: will it refresh itself? Rebuild, I mean
moritz_ tadzik: it should :-)
at :30
11:24 stepnem joined
tadzik fine :) 11:25
moritz_ the crontab has */15 in the 'minute' field
frettled How quickly does it get updated on github, usually? 11:26
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moritz_ which "it"? 11:28
frettled Pushes like tadzik's. 11:29
moritz_ immediately
frettled hmm. Weird.
frettled doesn't yet see it.
moritz_ github.com/perl6/perl6.org/
shows it
frettled Aha.
frettled was in github.com/perl6/mu/tree/master/doc...perl6.org/
moritz_ I should delete that
masak aye. 11:30
jnthn masak: ...for loops?! :-) 11:31
moritz_ done.
masak jnthn: ...but he figgered you might not like it :P
jnthn: irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2010-08-30#i_2763349 11:33
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masak feather outage? 11:37
11:37 dalek left, Util left
jnthn masak: ooh, thanks for the clicky :-) 11:37
jnthn will read the mailing lists/RTs/blawgs, but has already given up on backlogging 10+ days worth. 11:38
masak :)
jnthn OK, the syntax just confuses me at first glance. :-) I'll have to look a bit further back than that to get the context. 11:41
masak nod 11:42
same here.
jnthn ...oh, wow! 11:43
The Pugs repo is no more.
moritz_ RIP
rhebus long live github
jnthn moritz_++ # migration 11:44
pugs_repo++ # hosting so much awesome stuff
juerd++ too of course :-)
masak au|irc++ # pugs repo
jnthn So many people to thanks :-)
...OK, I have to ask...why "roast" for the test branch? :-)
masak jnthn: because TimToady likes tab completion. 11:45
jnthn It makes me think of a beef roast. Om nom nom.
masak jnthn: 10 days. it's like, you've missed so much that it's almost impossible to fill you in on all the changes. :P 11:47
moritz_ jnthn: the mem leak you helped finding before your vacations is now fixed 11:48
which means it's now possible again to run long-lived rakudo processes
11:48 meppl joined
frettled Hmm, where is the thingy that builds the web pages? 11:50
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daxim masak, moritz_, couldn't you have waited until today with publishing Mu? :( I figured out the cruft filtering 11:50
moritz_ daxim: no :( 11:51
daxim what's the matter?
moritz_ ENOPUGSSVN 11:52
daxim what happened?
moritz_ it strained the server so much that we had to disable it 11:53
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daxim I need the authors file to do the proper conversion of committer id so it is useful for github, 11:55
or I can give you instructions and you run it on your machine or feather
moritz_ ah right; I was about to email the authors file to you when my local machine crashed :/
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tadzik frettled: mowyw? 11:59
moritz_ should mv NOTES README and add a link to it 12:00
frettled tadzik: which is what? :)
Ah, wait, found it. 12:01
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masak feather back up :) 12:15
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sjn notes that omg.perl6.org resolves in DNS now :D 12:46
moritz_ sjn: it's a catch-all domain
sjn aah
oh well
12:50 Axius left
jnthn i.love.perl6.org/ # also :-) \o/ 12:51
masak i.cuddle.up.with.perl6.org/
frettled I think I may have grokked how to use mowyw at least half-way, as well as perform some CSS magic: www.ping.uio.no/~jani/perl6/perl6.o...mentation/
jnthn masak: TMI :P 12:52
ooh, and my Hague Grant has been accepted \o/
frettled jnthn: don't act so surprised about masak's love for Perl 6!
masak jnthn: \o/
frettled jnthn++
moritz_ frettled: that doesn't degrade well for narrow browser windows
masak moritz_: the perl6.org page never really did.
frettled moritz_: how narrow?
moritz_ frettled: too narrow to display the three boxes 12:53
masak giveupandusetables.com/
frettled moritz_: perl6.org breaks down, too
masak: heh
masak really.
moritz_ there's a difference between "breaks up" and "hides some content"
masak also, www.eod.com/devil/archive/web_standards.html 12:54
moritz_ the perl6.org doesn't look nice when viewed with a narrow browser window, but the information is still accessible
masak having it look nice on a very large percentage of browsers is only a usage of tables away. 12:55
moritz_ anyway, if people want to push that, I won't stop them 12:56
I made my point, others can consider how important it is for them
frettled I think it's possible to make the boxes resize themselves.
I'll look into that.
jnthn masak++ # pragmatism/jfdism :-) 12:57
tadzik frettled++!
smash jnthn++ # Hague Grant accepted 12:58
moritz_ TPF++ # accepting jnthn++'s grant :-) 12:59
gfldex std: multi sub prefix:<.>(Str $name){say "Perl 6 loves $name!";} . 'you'; 13:00
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings; in Perl 6 please use ~ at /tmp/CQW4jQw7MD line 1:␤------> tr $name){say "Perl 6 loves $name!";} . ⏏'you';␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 124m␤»
gfldex something eaten me heart :(
moritz_ std: multi sub prefix:<heart>(Str $name){say "Perl 6 loves $name!"}; heart 'you' 13:03
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«ok 00:01 123m␤»
moritz_ rakudo: multi sub prefix:<heart>(Str $name){say "Perl 6 loves $name!"}; heart 'you'
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«Perl 6 loves you!␤»
gfldex gist.github.com/567010 13:04
masak rakudo: multi sub prefix:<♥>(Str $name){say "Perl 6 loves $name!"}; ♥ 'you'
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«Perl 6 loves you!␤»
masak In Soviet Russia, YOU love Perl 6! 13:05
sjn is it possible to define an infix operator that has a default (ignorable) left side?
</noob>
moritz_ btw mfollett++ made a pull request for book, adding a section on inheritance 13:06
masak sjn: sounds like you want a prefix that defers to an infix.
moritz_ I like it
any objections to merging?
masak moritz_: no objections. go ahead.
moritz_ (I've given some feedback, which resulted in the current version)
masak sounds excellent. 13:08
I plan to have a read through the book during the week. 13:09
moritz_ \o/
tell us what you find :-)
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
13:09 orafu left
moritz_ aloha-- 13:09
aloha moritz_: Pbbbbtt!
13:09 orafu joined
jnthn tell me why we have another message bot... 13:10
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
masak lol
jnthn phenny: You're so much better :-)
frettled hugme: hug phenny
no hugme?
:(
moritz_ jnthn: I think bacek++ brought aloha here because we had no 'seen' functionality
masak aloha: THIS IS WHY WE CANNOT HAVE NICE THINGS! 13:11
aloha masak: Okay.
jnthn seen functionality?
13:11 hugme joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v hugme
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen functionality. 13:11
masak lol
jnthn <snort>
masak seen Jesus
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen Jesus.
masak neither 13:12
dalek ok: 1512265 | (Matt Follett)++ | src/classes-and-objects.pod:
Added a section on single inheritance
book: dd5cd17 | (Matt Follett)++ | / (2 files):
book: Merge branch 'master' of github.com/perl6/book
13:12 dalek left
masak seen us? 13:12
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen us.
masak seen bigfoot?
jnthn Tssk, doesn't even know basic English.
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen bigfoot.
13:13 dalek joined, ChanServ sets mode: +v dalek
masak seen basicEnglish? 13:13
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen basicEnglish.
moritz_ seen anything?
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen anything.
masak lol
seen nothing?
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen nothing.
masak seen Higgs?
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen Higgs.
moritz_ is Higgs still alive?
masak seen aloha?
aloha aloha was last seen in #perl6 4 hours 53 mins ago joining the channel.
huf well that's odd 13:14
jnthn ...I've seen aloha a lot more than that.
masak seen tooMuch?
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen tooMuch.
masak seen sense?
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen sense.
huf there has to be a pun in this somewhere... 13:15
rhebus seen theLight?
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen theLight.
13:15 kaare_ left
masak seen thePoint? 13:15
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen thePoint.
tadzik aloha: seen pun?
aloha tadzik: Sorry, I haven't seen pun.
masak seen Godot? 13:16
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen Godot.
rhebus pfft, cultural
masak seen 2011?
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen 2011.
moritz_ bot abuse! 13:17
rhebus seen enoughYet?
aloha Sorry, I haven't seen enoughYet.
masak I'd argue that among these, at least 'tell me' needs to be special-cased. 13:18
(so that aloha doesn't butt in when grownups are talking)
moritz_ I'd argue that a bot should only respond to commands directed at it.
masak yes, me too.
that'd be even better.
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jnthn Aye, aloha is too noisy 13:20
For #perl6, anyways.
masak she won't make it here without adapting.
tell me when you've adapted, aloha 13:21
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
masak :)
rhebus tell aloha to shut up
aloha OK. I'll deliver the message.
masak aloha: that's just wrong.
13:26 Axius joined
smash can anyone tell me what i'm doing wrong in this MMD example gist.github.com/567037 ? 13:28
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moritz_ doesn't get it 13:30
13:30 M_o_C left
masak smash: unable to reproduce your error. 13:31
smash: are you using a seriously old Rakudo, perchance?
gfldex try my @b = 1,2,3; instead of my @b = (1,2,3); 13:32
that should not change anything tho :)
13:32 uniejo joined
masak ...and it doesn't. 13:32
smash masak: git pull is 'Already up-to-date.'
masak oh wait 13:33
didn't have the last line... :/
yep, getting it too now.
masak submits rakudobug 13:34
szbalint heh. when I was writing my first Perl 6 program I accidentally executed it with Perl 5. The error puzzled me for half an hour.
masak szbalint: use v6
moritz_ szbalint: that's why... what masak++ said
:-)
szbalint yeah, I should.
masak you just learned it the hard way :) 13:35
moritz_ szbalint: but when you use it a lot, you learn to distinguish the error messages from p5 and p6
szbalint yeah. hopefully I will soon.
13:35 uniejo left
masak rakudo: multi f([]) {}; multi f(@a) {}; f(my @b = 1, 2, 3) 13:35
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol @b at line 22, near " = 1, 2, 3"␤»
frettled moritz_: New and possibly improved: www.ping.uio.no/~jani/perl6/perl6.o...mentation/ 13:36
jnthn That's a weird mmd fail...
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jnthn Will look more later on. 13:37
szbalint jnthn: back from holiday?
moritz_ frettled++ # much better 13:38
masak submits rakudobug 13:39
not the effect I sought to reproduce.
jnthn szbalint: Yes, arrived back on the sleeper train this morning. :-)
masak rakudo: multi f([]) {}; multi f(@a) {}; my @b = 1, 2, 3; f @b
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«No applicable candidates found to dispatch to for 'f'. Available candidates are:␤:(Positional ())␤:(@a)␤␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/rYSqpp_pYJ␤»
jnthn rakudo: multi f(@a) {}; my @b = 1, 2, 3; f @b 13:40
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: ( no output )
jnthn ...
wtf.
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moritz_ rakudo: multi f(@a) {}; my @b = 1, 2, 3; f @ 13:42
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Non-declarative sigil is missing its name at line 22, near "@"␤»
moritz_ rakudo: multi f(@a) {}; my @b = 1, 2, 3; f @b
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: ( no output )
jnthn Seems adding the extra cand with the sub-sig busts it. 13:43
moritz_ thinks he's seen a similar bug before 13:44
cognominal was involved back then, I think
masak rakudo: multi f(Int $a) {}; multi f($b) {}; f(my $x = 42) 13:45
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: ( no output )
masak rakudo: multi f(Int $a) {}; multi f($b) {}; f(my @x = 42)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol @x at line 22, near " = 42)"␤»
13:46 jaldhar left
jnthn rakudo: foo(my @x = 42) 13:47
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol @x at line 22, near " = 42)"␤»
jnthn declaration in args = kaboom, it seems
frettled moritz_: yay (docs page). Do I have a commit bit? (I forgot how to find out on github)
moritz_ frettled: what's your github ID? 13:49
frettled moritz_: jani
moritz_ frettled: you now have
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masak jnthn: I"ll add that to the ticket. 13:51
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jnthn masak++ 13:52
masak rakudo: foo(my @x)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &foo␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/CwOH4cdJb6␤»
masak array declaration and assignment 13:53
jnthn oh
rakudo: foo(my $x = 42)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«Could not find sub &foo␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/YvnUwacDXA␤»
jnthn rakudo: foo(my @x = 42)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol @x at line 22, near " = 42)"␤»
jnthn rakudo: foo(my %x = 42)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Redeclaration of symbol %x at line 22, near " = 42)"␤»
moritz_ some $*IN_DECL leakage?
frettled moritz_: tee-hee :D Thanks!
jnthn rakudo: foo(bar() = 42)
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unable to parse postcircumfix:sym<( )>, couldn't find final ')' at line 22␤»
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jnthn moritz_: That or $*LEFTSIGIL oddness 13:53
moritz_: It's interesting that it only happens when it's list assignment. 13:54
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frettled moritz_: yay. I think I even managed to push my changes correctly. 14:03
moritz_ \o' 14:04
masak rakudo: class A { method foo(::G $self:) { say G.perl } }; class B is A {}; .new.foo for A, B 14:09
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«A␤B␤»
14:11 JimmyZ left
masak rakudo: class A { method bar(::G $self: G $other) { say "yay!" } }; class B is A {}; B.new.bar(B.new); A.new.bar(A.new); A.new.bar(B.new); B.new.bar(A.new) 14:12
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«yay!␤yay!␤yay!␤Constraint type check failed for parameter '$other'␤ in 'A::bar' at line 22:/tmp/iV8EV6SMdo␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/iV8EV6SMdo␤»
masak \ø/
jnthn happy and wearing a bandana? :-) 14:13
masak mhm
frettled have a banana 14:17
masak om nom nom
moritz_ thanks for reminding me that I brought some tasty grapes... :-) 14:19
14:21 javs left
jnthn hadn't ever mentally associated bandanas and bananas... 14:21
masak rakudo: class Grape { our $.ommed is rw = False; method nom { say $.ommed++ ?? 'om' !! 'nom' } }; my @grapes = map { Grape.new }, ^4; @grapes>>.nom
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«Method 'ommed' not found for invocant of class 'Grape'␤ in 'Grape::nom' at line 22:/tmp/CKVYGvYoAN␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/CKVYGvYoAN␤»
masak :/
rakudo: class Grape { our $ommed is rw = False; method nom { say $ommed++ ?? 'om' !! 'nom' } }; my @grapes = map { Grape.new }, ^4; @grapes>>.nom
jnthn our? 14:22
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«nom␤om␤om␤om␤»
14:22 Kodi joined
masak dang, backwards. :) 14:22
rakudo: class Grape { our $ommed is rw = False; method nom { say $ommed++ ?? 'nom' !! 'om' } }; my @grapes = map { Grape.new }, ^4; @grapes>>.nom
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«om␤nom␤nom␤nom␤»
masak \o/
jnthn: yes, we discussed class attributes again this morning.
jnthn: sorear++ pointed out that 'our $.classattr' will have an inheritable method, which is what most classattrists want. 14:23
Kodi Can anyone review or apply rt.perl.org/rt3//Public/Bug/Display...l?id=77560 for me? 14:24
moritz_ rakudo: class Grape { has $!ommed = False; method nom { say $!ommed++ ?? "nom" !! "om" } }; (Grape.new xx 4)>>.nom
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«om␤nom␤nom␤nom␤»
masak moritz_: you just ate the same grape four times!
moritz_ masak: I ate it once, and savoured it another three times :-) 14:25
masak :)
Kodi: I have this feeling that I've been neglecting you lately. if so, I apologise.
Kodi: I can take a look at the patch. 14:26
Kodi masak: Thanks. 14:27
jnthn masak: Yes, my $.classattr would also do that, just keep it more tightly scoped. 14:29
masak: If there's what we want to make my $.foo and our $.foo mean anyway
Works for me - we used to have it that way iirc.
masak jnthn: aye. 14:30
I think I've gained some additional insight lately in how all the various parts of OO attributes fit together. I'm quite happy with it all. 14:31
there's has/my/our, there's dot twigil/bang twigil, there's (is readonly)/is rw.
hm, should add 'no twigil' on the middle axis to make it complete. 14:32
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masak Kodi: the patch looks very good to me. 14:33
jnthn masak: If there's consensus that my/our + . twigil is just a variable + a method that accesses it, I can easily get Rakudo to do that again.
Kodi masak: Great.
masak jnthn: oh, I think S12 says so already.
jnthn masak: I'm more curious what my $!foo and our $!foo would mean though.
masak jnthn: my bet is that they're just ordinary (though funny-looking) variables. 14:34
jnthn: S12:736
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patrickas rakudo: say ~(2,3,5,7 ... 4); 14:44
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
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patrickas I am pretty sure the previous series example was working 14:47
14:48 armicron joined 14:50 wtw left 14:53 Kodi left 14:59 mj41 left 15:02 mj41 joined
patrickas actually maybe not ... 15:05
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tylercurtis nopaste.snit.ch/23242 # function-level numbers from the valgrind spectest run. 15:17
moritz_ so the big part is packfiles 15:20
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tylercurtis Not necessarily. One thing to note is that those numbers repeatedly count the same lost memory for each level in a backtrace. 15:21
moritz_ I guess calloc only appears high on that list because most lost memory was allocated through it 15:23
tylercurtis PackFile_Segment_unpack in particular frequently shows up multiple times in a single backtrace.
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moritz_ does that increase only the appearance count, or also the number of bytes lost? 15:24
tylercurtis Both currently (though I could easily change that).
moritz_ patrickas: the commit list in your latest pull request is both impressive and confusing 15:29
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moritz_ patrickas: cherry-picking the relevant commits into a branch would certainly help 15:34
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pmichaud good morning, #perl6 15:43
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pmichaud jnthn: o/ 15:43
moritz_ \o
masak gm, pm
sjn Anyone here want to comment on the Perl6 poster that's been made for Oslo.pm today? dl.dropbox.com/u/3809132/JavaZone/P...00_NY2.pdf 15:44
sjn is being a little cheeky with the concept here :-9
moritz_ for Perl 6 you need camelia!!!!11! 15:45
pmichaud sjn: I like it. I'd go. :-)
sjn moritz_: we'll put the omg.perl6.org url in the flyer (iow, we're still on for that)
masak std: class A {}; my $a = new A:
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«ok 00:02 119m␤»
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masak rakudo: class A {}; my $a = new A: 15:45
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "my $a = ne"␤»
masak submits rakudobug
sjn is there any high-res or vector image of camelia anywhere? 15:46
moritz_ didn't std.pm carp about obsolete use of C++ constructor about this one?
masak moritz_: note colon at end
tylercurtis moritz_: it's just indirect object syntax.
pmichaud sjn: github.com/perl6/mu/blob/master/misc/camelia.svg
moritz_ sjn: github.com/perl6/mu/tree/master/misc/ there are .svn and .pdf files
oh.
masak rakudo: class A { method foo { say "OH HAI" } }; foo A.new: 15:47
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "foo A.new:"␤»
masak rakudo: class A { method foo { say "OH HAI" } }; my $a = A.new; foo $a:
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Confused at line 22, near "foo $a:"␤»
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pmichaud afaik, rakudo doesn't grok indirect object syntax yet 15:47
patrickas moritz_: I will try to do that 15:48
moritz_ not sure that syntax is a good idea
masak pmichaud: it used to, though, right?
sjn moritz_: thanks
moritz_ alpha: class A { method foo { say "OH HAI" } }; foo A.new: 15:49
p6eval alpha 30e0ed: OUTPUT«Confused at line 10, near ":"␤in Main (file <unknown>, line <unknown>)␤»
pmichaud masak: I don't think we ever handled indirect object syntax, no.
masak ok. 15:50
marking it as TODO, then.
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x3nU is there something like $^O in perl6/rakudo 16:02
?
i want detect operating system
moritz_ rakudo: say $*OS
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«linux␤»
x3nU thanks
jnthn pmichaud: o/ 16:03
pmichaud: Hope all is well. :-) 16:04
pmichaud jnthn: it is. Good holiday?
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jnthn pmichaud: Yes. Outstanding food, some beautiful places, and some nice mountain walks too, though getting snowed on during summer vacation was a slight novelty. :-) 16:05
patrickas moritz_: I got EGITNOOBFAIL while trying to cherry pick in a branch :-( 16:07
jnthn \o/ welcome back from vacation!
jnthn o/ patrickas 16:08
moritz_ patrickas: if you have a list of sha1 sums somewhere, I could give it a try
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TimToady rakudo: my $x = 100; say 'The $100 answer is \qq[$x]'; # NYI 16:28
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: OUTPUT«The $100 answer is \qq[$x]␤»
jnthn ...you can do that? 16:29
jnthn thought ' was always rather less magical.
moritz_ thought ' only allowed \ and ' escaping
TimToady std: $^O
moritz_ std: 'foo \qq[$x]'
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unsupported use of $^O variable; in Perl 6 please use $?OS or $*OS at /tmp/LTL3zcDbh1 line 1 (EOF):␤------> $^O⏏<EOL>␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 114m␤»
std 32123: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Variable $x is not predeclared at /tmp/9oOcmZtRDs line 1:␤------> 'foo \qq[$x⏏]'␤Check failed␤FAILED 00:01 116m␤»
moritz_ rakudo: $^O
p6eval rakudo 77a72a: ( no output ) 16:30
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TimToady x3nU: std will usually tell you what the new thing is if you try to use a P5 variable 16:31
jnthn moritz_: Same, and I'd prefer it did.
At least then if you're reading code and you see ' quotes, you know you can easily skip what is inbetween as purely literal. 16:32
moritz_ indeed
TimToady no '' is for minimal interpolation, and it includes a very rare sequence for \qq 16:33
if you really want to skip, use Q
moritz_ Perl 6 - never as simple as you think
TimToady this makes it handy to put in a large chunk of program with just a few interpolations, which Perl 5 can't do without s/// 16:34
daxim moritz_, 103 MB -- daxim.ath.cx/Mu-svn32126.tar.bz2 16:35
you still 1) need to filter the git authors - this is very easy stackoverflow.com/questions/392332#392427
2) reapply the commits made since you gave me the svn tar
3) profit 16:36
moritz_ daxim: thanks. I'm wondering if I should push it as a forced update
(and maybe warn the world)
daxim that won't work at all, so delete the existing repo, and warn the world that they have to clone from scratch 16:37
moritz_ iterate for ~8 repos that are spawned from mu
fun
daxim you didn't say anything about that :-|
moritz_ sorry; I was very busy and distracted with all that fallout 16:39
daxim www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git...#_examples # see --subdirectory-filter
moritz_ that's what I used for spawning those repos off, yes 16:40
daxim excellent. before you push, do the usual housekeeping: git reflog expire --all --expire=now ; git gc --aggressive ; git prune ; git fsck --full 16:41
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daxim I'm off to meet the lambdaheads, gonna fix some ghc compiler warnings in pugs tonight if I can :) 16:42
Juerd feather1 now has ipv6. It's experimental and doesn't do reverse DNS yet 16:43
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Juerd Please let me know your experiences :) 16:43
s/doesn't do/doesn't have/
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aloha rhebus: rhebus asked me to tell you foo 16:52
rhebus: rhebus asked me to tell you what's up
rhebus: rhebus asked me to tell you hello
rhebus: rhebus asked me to tell you bim
Juerd First surprise so far: apache2 won't listen on ipv6
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rhebus sorry guys, was investigating aloha's messaging earlier... 16:53
moritz_ Juerd: that's surprising indeed. I know of several sites that use apache2, an that work without problem with ipv6
but maybe it needs non-trivial setup magic 16:54
moritz_ -> gone
rhebus i dread to think what would happen if someone with nick "me" or "us" enters the channel, i think aloha would have a fit
Juerd With explicit addresses, it will run
florz apache2 works just fine with ipv6 16:55
Juerd But with the catch-all address ::, it says the address is already in use
Which netstat does not confirm, by the way
Oh well, explicit address is good enough for now.
florz have it running for many years listening on v6
Juerd florz: On ::?
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florz tcp6 0 0 :::80 :::* LISTEN 16145/apache2 16:56
!
Juerd florz: What Listen line are you using?
I tried Listen 80, Listen :::80 and Listen [::]:80
florz /etc/apache2/ports.conf:Listen 80
Juerd Maybe it can't work because of the explicit ipv4 addresses configured 16:57
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florz yeah, probably 16:57
:: tends to (depends on the OS and stuff) bind v4-mapped addresses as well
Juerd Anyway, feather.perl6.nl/cgi-bin/whoami now properly tells me I'm on 2a02:2308:10:7f::5 :)
florz: Ah, that must be it then. 16:58
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florz Juerd: it doesn't want to tell me - but if I can trust netstat, my firefox is connecting via v6 just fine as well ;-) 17:00
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lue ohai o/ 17:04
Juerd florz: Yea, the cgi scripts require a feather account :) 17:05
Hi
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TimToady github.com/perl6/specs/commit/a826b...7f3502dcdb 17:44
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TimToady [S04,S32] implicit loops expect to be controlled by bare next and last 17:44
TimToady fakes dalek
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moritz_ TimToady++ 17:45
diakopter urp 17:46
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pmichaud TimToady++ 17:48
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moritz_ I'm discussing dalek options with Infinoid++ over in #parrot 17:49
diakopter oh.. I uncommented the .pm I added
maybe you saw it in botnix.conf
or saw my discussion of it here yesterday 17:50
moritz_ diakopter: nope. But we're discussing a file where can add new repos, and dalek picks it up automatically
diakopter seems to me the way I did it works ok; it's a tad more boilerplate than adding a single url.. 17:51
but sending a sighup is faster than "automatically" anyway
moritz_: would you like to take a look at the .pm I added? 17:53
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diakopter »ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'perl6: say 3;' or rakudo:, niecza:, std:, or /msg p6eval perl6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org/ | UTF-8 is our friend! | Rakudo Star Released! 18:18
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aloha me: jnthn asked me to tell you why we have another message bot... 18:22
me: masak asked me to tell you when you've adapted, aloha
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aloha us: moritz_ asked me to tell you what you find :-) 18:23
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moritz_ diakopter++ 18:23
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diakopter also irclog.perl6.org works 18:25
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dalek kudo: ae66feb | pmichaud++ | src/Perl6/ (2 files):
Removed (unused) $lazy parameter from add_signature().
 18:29
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masak huh. I didn't know about \qq either. convenient. 18:39
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masak its usage, I mean. not not knowing about it. :) 18:39
diakopter heh 18:40
masak TimToady++ # '(C<next> without a label is purely dynamic.)' 18:41
TimToady just feels like that's what most people will expect, if they use it in a list processor 18:44
masak it's much, much saner. as far as I can tell without an actual implementation of it. 18:45
pmichaud it follows the direction Rakudo is already going. :-)
(or vice-versa, depending on how you look at it)
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TimToady and this'll let you 'last' out of a series too, I expect 18:46
masak I guess &first in S32 gets the 'implicit loop' paragraph by virtue of being a slightly modified form of &grep.
TimToady that's what I figgered 18:47
masak the series operator is a loop construct?
TimToady how else it it going to loop?
pmichaud it could just be an iterator, no loop 18:48
(no internal loop)
masak TimToady: that doesn't really make sense. recursion can be used for looping, yet recursion isn't a loop construct in Perl 6.
so 'how else is it going to loop?' isn't an argument for something being a loop construct.
pmichaud masak has it closer
masak this is also a reason I feel it's important to lay these things down in spec. because things can be implemented various ways. 18:50
and it feels like a dangerous thing to leave up to implementations.
TimToady well, something has to call the iterator function repeatedly
and it would be nice to be able to stop that on the fly
could replace the {} on the right of ...
masak I agree. my first thought on "'last' out of a series" was 'ooh!' 18:51
pmichaud yes, rakudo's current implementation of series uses 'loop'
masak case in point.
pmichaud so, 'last' will likely work.
masak oh.
not case in point. :) 18:52
if you can 'last' out of a series block, it should be guaranteed by the spec that the 'last' binds to the series, and not to something else.
diakopter TimToady: what is the _reduced member of an std parsetree node
pmichaud I think that falls out naturally.
diakopter sorear: or you 18:53
masak pmichaud: I don't. trying to imagine a recursive implementation of the series operator. it's going sufficiently well that I'd say it's altogether possible. 18:54
which means, there's a way to implement infix:<...> such that 'last' doesn't stick on it.
TimToady diakopter: it's the name of the rule that did the reduction
diakopter ah, thanks. 18:55
pmichaud masak: all of the recursive implementations that I can imagine lead to really long recursion trees, unless one assumes tailcall semantics
masak I assume tailcall semantics.
pmichaud s/trees/lists/
TimToady masak: it's trivial to put a loop {} around it even if it's really implemented recursively
masak that'll make 'last' work. 18:56
what about 'next' and 'redo'?
TimToady not clear that they're meaningful
diakopter TimToady: how about ~CAPS
masak anyway, missing the point a wee bit.
TimToady next on a series would recompute from the same value
masak the fact that one has to put a loop {} around it *is what should be mandated by the spec*. 18:57
TimToady diakopter: the captures that are supposed to end up in .caps
diakopter hm
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masak otherwise, implementations might end up diverging on 'last' in series blocks. 18:57
TimToady masak: sure, which is why I added the forward-looking modifier, "I expect"
masak fairy nuff.
I won't complain about not-yet-written spec stuff. happy about what landed today. :) 18:58
pmichaud rakudo: say ~(0, 1, { last if $^a > 100; $^a + $^b; } ... *); # curious 18:59
p6eval rakudo ae66fe: OUTPUT«0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89 144 233␤»
pmichaud :-)
masak \o/
19:00 jaldhar left
TimToady I keep wondering if those are backwards, and $^a should always be the last arg, and $^b the next-to-last... 19:00
moritz_ why? 19:01
rhebus TimToady: that would kill the series version of euclid's algorithm
TimToady so optional parameters make the front optional instead of the back
pmichaud I think it's correct as-is. Consider the order of arguments in @^_
rhebus { $a, $b, *%* ... 0 }[*-2] <-- euclid
TimToady nod 19:02
rhebus pmichaud++ for showing me that trick
TimToady it's in risottocode
pmichaud colomon++ for showing me that trick :)
rhebus :)
masak moritz_++ for inventing that trick, I think. 19:03
in some PerlMonks thread or other.
moritz_ right
somebody asked for elegant ways to implement GCD
masak (Perl 6)++
patrickas euclid++ for creating a need for this #I think
TimToady rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Perl_6
masak patrickas: :)
TimToady er... 19:04
rosettacode.org/wiki/Greatest_commo...visor#Perl rather
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TimToady rakudo: say ~ (0,1, { my $r = $^a + $^b; last if $r > 100; $r } ... *) 19:07
p6eval rakudo ae66fe: OUTPUT«0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89␤»
TimToady wish there was a less clunky way to say that. 19:08
pmichaud rakudo: say ~ (0,1, *+* ... { $^a < 100 }); # less clunky
p6eval rakudo ae66fe: OUTPUT«(timeout)»
pmichaud and apparently nyi
TimToady and you have it backwards 19:09
pmichaud oh, the { } is the stop condition?
TimToady since the closure indicates the until condition
pmichaud ah
TimToady which is an argument for requiring { last if } instead
pmichaud then
rakudo: say ~ (0,1, *+* ... * > 100 );
p6eval rakudo ae66fe: OUTPUT«(timeout)» 19:10
TimToady nyi
pmichaud (still nyi, but pretty concise)
patrickas > say ~ (0,1, *+* ... { $^a <= 100 }); # less clunky
0 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 55 89
just sayin'
pmichaud less clunky and still backwards :-)
Sec rakudo: say {123, 456, *%* ... 0 }[*-2];
p6eval rakudo ae66fe: ( no output )
patrickas but apparently I misunderstood the spec on the end condition
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patrickas funny thing I had implemneted it as TimToady is saying then I read the spec and implemented it backwards! 19:11
1, *+1 ... { $_ < 10 }
produces
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
Sec why doesn't that output anything? 19:12
patrickas From the spec
TimToady spec looks wrongish
M_o_C How exactly do you call { $a, ... *} constructs? I mean it's not really list comprehensions in the haskell sense, as IMHO those are constructs like [x | x <- [...]].
TimToady we do list comprehensions with statement modifiers, at least one dimensionally 19:13
except I don't think rakudo implements modifier for as a map yet
pmichaud TimToady: I'm working on that right now. :) 19:14
TimToady and the multidim problem is still there, since we don't have multiple formal names, just $_
M_o_C And with one dimensionally you mean that you don't (yet) have sth. analogous to [(x,y)|x<-[...],y<-[...]]?
TimToady not without playing X tricks 19:15
the basic problem is that standard list comprehension notation is really postdeclarative
and we currently allow postdeclaration only on subs
we might possible allow a loop modifier to bind to an existing variable, I suppose. my $x,$y for <a b c> X <d e f> -> $x, $y; 19:18
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patrickas TimToady: so should i implement the end condition the other way ? 19:18
TimToady I think it would be more consistent to make it the ending condition
not the continue condition 19:19
pmichaud I agree.
patrickas ok
pmichaud The 0,1, *+* ... * > 100 example shows that it should be the ending condition
"up to whatever is greater than 100"
TimToady and if it's that easy, I'm inclined to throw out a lot of the guessing on which way the series is progressing 19:20
pmichaud +2
that would make things soooooo much cleaner, I think.
TimToady so ... 5 really means ... * !=== 5
er, wait
patrickas ? 19:21
TimToady that doesn't work on exact match
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pmichaud agreed, there's an exact match issue there. 19:21
TimToady obviously I need to feed my brane some nutriments
lunch &
patrickas :-)
Tene rakudo: say (123, 456, *%* ... 0)[*-2] 19:27
p6eval rakudo ae66fe: OUTPUT«3␤»
Tene Sec: I think you mean that ^. you were using {}s instead of ()s.
patrickas fixed series end condition spectesting 19:29
Sec Tene: thanks. I'm stupid :) 19:31
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Tene Sec: locally, it does bail out with an error, "Cannot use negative index -1 on Block" 19:33
masak zzz
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moritz_ fixed the cron script that updates perlcabal.org/syn/ 19:41
... mostly
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frettled If you need any kind of help with that, support, a shoulder to cry on, anything at all, feel free to lean on Tene. 19:45
:D
moritz_: But seriously, what's the problem? 19:46
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moritz_ forgot to update some svn.pugscode.org links 19:46
Tene Yes, I've cronned a lot of crons. Sometimes I think I've cronned all the crons.
So when you're cronning a cron, and you need cron-support, feel free to cron me. 19:47
moritz_ just a small matter of hacking/debugging
frettled Tene: But it appears not to be a cronical problem.
TimToady interestingly, ($^a, $^b, *%* ... * == 0)[*-1] should work, if the matching term is excluded
perhaps the last term is naturally excluded by an implicit 'last if block()'. but if block itself does last($_) if $_ == 0 then it would include the 0 and terminate 19:52
pmichaud that feels like it can work 19:53
because if you really want to terminate on a specific value, there's already a notation for that :)
TimToady more generally, perhaps ... 42 turns into ... { last(42) when 42 } or some such
assuming a when is sufficient to trigger -> $_ 19:54
not sure this is optimizer friendly though 19:55
patrickas I am not sure I get this :-(
moritz_ neither
frettled patrickas: you are not alone.
pmichaud want clarifications?
patrickas the main thing that is not clear to me
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patrickas is that 19:55
TimToady just trying to express the semantics of ... 42 in terms of the more general form 19:56
patrickas when we have a term as the rhs
like 1,10 ... 42
I cannot see how that can be expressed as { last(42) when 42 }
pmichaud it would need to be last($_) if $_ after 42 19:57
no
hmm
TimToady we were proposing that a constant be an exact match, and you'd write 1,10 ... * > 42 if you reall meant the other
patrickas oh ok
pmichaud it could be something like 19:58
moritz_ that would simplify things... except for ...^
TimToady with implicit ineqauality, you get problems with the gcd wanting to trim all the terms
pmichaud { last $_ if $_ === 42; last if $_ after 42 } 19:59
TimToady maybe the implicit semantics of ... is last($n) if block() and ...^ is the last if block() 20:00
so ... * > 42 would return the first number > 42
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pmichaud ooooh 20:00
TimToady to get the other, you'd say either ... * >= 42 or ...^ * > 42 20:01
or however that works
pmichaud or maybe it's just a smartmatch :-)
last($n) when $test and last when $test
TimToady sure last($n) if $n ~~ $test
last($_) when $test 20:02
pmichaud that might avoid always having to create the block :-)
TimToady sure, that's how I was already thinking of it from the other way
pmichaud ah
EPMTOOSLOW
TimToady though note that if it's a smartmatch it can't do an arity check, only test the final value 20:03
so only the lhs's closure can do arity
20:04 jaldhar left
rhebus "Your comment submission failed for the following reasons: Text entered was wrong. Try again." :S 20:04
TimToady we still want subscripts to autotrim infinite lists, though 20:06
and we still haven't quite nailed down the scope of the final ... {} matcher such that it trims lefthand literals when you want it to, and doesn't when you don't 20:08
patrickas gotta run. If you think the new way is worth pursuing, just phenny me a draft of what should be done and I can implement it so we test / compare with the current way.
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moritz_ phenny: tell pmurias if there are any parts of the pugs/mu repo you want extracted into a separate repo, please let me know 20:12
phenny moritz_: I'll pass that on when pmurias is around.
TimToady I wonder if mu/misc should be hoisted into misc? or parts of it?
haven't really looked.. 20:13
moritz_ TimToady: I've tried to extract logic units from it so far. misc/ doesn't appear to one
TimToady were you planning a grand renaming of historical nicks?
moritz_ if I did, everybody would have to clone again all the repos 20:14
I'm of two minds
TimToady well, if it's well publicized, we can all hold off for a bit
I really have no clue what it buys us
pmichaud I don't have a problem with re-cloning repos. It's not like it takes long :)
TimToady also, what about people with old names that don't map? those just stay? 20:15
moritz_ we can map them to [email@hidden.address]
well, I have an email address for every former pugs committer
alester Why is my SSH failing? paste.linuxassist.net/215418 Any clues? 20:16
TimToady moritz_: cool
moritz_: however, is that private info leaking?
moritz_ TimToady: that's the trouble; formerly they were only available to other committers 20:17
TimToady some people might not want their internal email addr leaking
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TimToady unfortunately AUTHORS doesn't hold public email addrs 20:18
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moritz_ I could mail them all... and wait weeks before a significant portion replied 20:18
TimToady alternate strategy would be some mechanism for doing renames in the future, maybe batched so we don't have to sync globally so often 20:19
part of the once-a-month cycle maybe
moritz_ I don't want to do any public history rewriting, except maybe in the next 5 days 20:20
I don't see a sufficient beneift to warrant the hasle and confusion involved
TimToady maybe one email saying "if you ever want this, register your email with github right now", and then cut it off after 5 days 20:21
rhebus how do perl6 modules work? does the rakudo* msi installer come with a module installer? 20:22
moritz_ there are some modules pre-installed. There's not yet a working module installer shipped with R* (we hope to change that soon) 20:23
rhebus is benchmark preinstalled? 20:24
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moritz_ don't think so 20:24
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moritz_ 326 active committers 20:25
rhebus on github? 20:26
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moritz_ no, pugs repo 20:26
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moritz_ -> sleep 20:28
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frettled alester: Hrm, I don't see where it actually fails. 20:30
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alester it just hangs 20:31
I wonder if the OS X SSH has some magic that I didn't compile into the new one
frettled Aha. 20:32
Firewall.
Or am I misremembering when my brain tells me that there is an application-level firewall in MacOS X? 20:33
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alester I can look 20:38
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alester No, because it DOES ask for a password 20:39
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rhebus rakudo: sub ident (Int $x) { $x }; sub list (Range $r) { for $r { say ident $_ } }; list (1..10) 21:00
p6eval rakudo ae66fe: OUTPUT«Nominal type check failed for parameter '$x'; expected Int but got Range instead␤ in 'ident' at line 22:/tmp/eJq1oOINFL␤ in <anon> at line 22:/tmp/eJq1oOINFL␤ in 'list' at line 1␤ in main program body at line 22:/tmp/eJq1oOINFL␤»
rhebus what am i doing wrong with that for loop?
TimToady $ never interpolates in a list without help
jnthn rhebus: Need to put the range in list context
for @($r) { ... } 21:01
or for $r.list
TimToady or @$r if it were implemented
rhebus or should I declare (Range @r) instead? would that work?
would it have eager implications?
TimToady not in interpolation 21:02
@r = is eager though
but not @r :=
and the sig is binding, so @r should work
frettled alester: Weirdness twice over. Hrm. (Sorry, I'm a bit woozy here.)
frettled declares bedtime, nighty-night.
TimToady note, though, that (Range @r) is a list of Ranges 21:03
each element of @r would be expected to be a range
rhebus aha, so that's a no-go 21:04
so @($r) or $r.list it is then
TimToady @r is Range is how that woudld be expressed
rhebus magical 21:05
and mysterious
TimToady or @r where Range woudl probably work
rhebus goes and reads some S[0-9]{2} docs
wolverian I don't think I've ever written a method that takes specifically a range (in languages that have them) 21:06
I suppose you might do that to optimize something 21:07
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dduncan moritz_ , I tried emailing you both on the 4th and just now but your email bounces 21:17
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dduncan I'm requesting a commit bit for perl6 on GitHub ... my existing GitHub account is "muldis" 21:18
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TimToady done 21:19
dduncan moritz_ , sending you an email bounces back with "503-Sender verification failed"
TimToady, if you were referring to me, then should I appear on the right hand column of github.com/perl6 ? 21:20
I got an email from GitHub about this though 21:21
TimToady yes, maybe you need to refresh 21:22
dduncan I did, twice 21:23
the list shows 10 organization members
the email I got mentioned 43 approved committers
pmichaud dduncan: I see you in the list on my screen. The "10 organization members" would be the "publicized" members.
TimToady are you logged in? 21:24
pmichaud I don't know what one does to publicize his/her membership.
dduncan not logged in yet
pmichaud aha
you'll need to be logged in, and list yourself as a "publicized member" (I think)
dduncan okay
pmichaud (if you want to appear on the public list, that is) 21:25
at any rate, I can confirm you're on the commit list :)
TimToady you can also confirm this by doing a push :)
dalek kudo: dd6a03a | pmichaud++ | src/Perl6/Actions.pm:
Refactor whatever_curry to progress towards refactoring out create_code_object()
 21:27
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flussence hi guys! 21:31
tadzik hello 21:32
TimToady std: /<:&foo>/ # interesting that this syntax is available 21:36
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized regex assertion at /tmp/VTvArbdQZp line 1:␤------> /<⏏:&foo>/ # interesting that this syntax ␤ expecting assertion␤Parse failed␤FAILED 00:01 116m␤»
TimToady std: / :&foo / # so is this
p6eval std 32123: OUTPUT«===SORRY!===␤Unrecognized regex metacharacter (must be quoted to match literally) at /tmp/b1Z7MG2fSQ line 1:␤------> / :⏏&foo / # so is this␤Can't call method "from" on unblessed reference at /opt/perl-5.12.1/lib/site_perl/5.12.1/STD.pm line
..53…
dduncan okay, now publicized 21:37
TimToady someone else already publicize me :)
*ed
not sure I want to be publicly associated with this project though... ;) 21:38
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flussence Can anyone take a look at this code and see what I'm doing wrong? gist.github.com/567539 21:40
It's loosely paraphrased from the CSS 3 spec, works for 1 character input but not for more :(
TimToady well, rules should generally not start with literals, or they tend not to participate in LTM 21:41
because of the whitespace before
flussence oops
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TimToady wonders if rules should ignore leading whitespace where it is likely to be wrongish, like before literals or ^ 21:43
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TimToady this seems to be becoming a FAQ 21:43
lue ohai o/
TimToady go/zaimasu 21:44
flussence by leading whitespace, do you mean the actual space after the { or something else there? (still new to the whole p6 regex thing, and feeling a bit lost right now) 21:45
TimToady the actual space after the { will match <ws>, which disables longest token matching
so most of those should probably be token instead of rule 21:46
lue TimToady: I agree with the ignore leading whitespace thing [OTOH, if you're going for an easy-to-read regex, you probably shouldn't use 'rule']
flussence doh! alright then, I'll give that a try.
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TimToady in particular, having rules that parse \n and such makes no sense 21:47
flussence I should go read the differences between rule/regex/tokens again :)
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TimToady since the <ws> would eat them first 21:47
flussence yeah, that's mainly my fault for copy-pasting most of the language verbatim... 21:48
TimToady most parsers assume their lexer is managing whitespace; in p6 you do that by using token for lexer-ly stuff 21:49
flussence aha
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flussence yay, s/rule/token/ seems to be getting me somewhere 21:56
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dduncan I don't know if it was discussed before, but I was wondering about issues related to Unicode canonical-equivalence vs compatibility-equivalence in Perl 6 ... 21:58
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TimToady we generally only worry about cananonical here 21:58
I figger compatibility is something you have to be explicit about 21:59
Kodi Can I (GitHub user KodiB) get commit bits for roast, specs, and rakudo?
TimToady coming
dduncan also, what about issues concerning different Unicode chars whose glyphs look the same, and telling them apart by a person looking at the source? 22:00
TimToady Kodi: done
dduncan AFAIK, identifiers are allowed to be composed of anything considered a letter in Unicode, right?
in bareword form that is
I assume quoted identifiers can be any string at all
TimToady dduncan: I think that's a doctor it hurts when I do that issue
dduncan there might also be security considerations 22:01
Kodi TimToady: Excellent! Except it doesn't look like rakudo is included, since it's in a different group.
TimToady I think someone else will have to do that
sure, but if you're executing user-supplied code you're already in deep kimchee 22:02
in general strictness catches typos
certainly data security needs to be handled careful, but not sure that's a core issue 22:03
*fully
dduncan partly I was wondering about this from a language design perspective 22:04
for example, with regular Str, there can be different abstraction levels involved, eg nationality-specific concepts of when 2 strings are equal vs more general grapheme compares vs codepoint compares
now since identifiers are also character strings, is it reasonable for those to compare at different levels, say if identifiers are written with some characters whose identity changes based on the abstraction level? 22:05
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dduncan the canon/compat issue is similar but distinct from that concern 22:06
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dduncan or how would users know at which levels identifiers are comparing 22:06
TimToady the defaults are all non-information-losing, just as identifiers are case sensitive by default, so too they're sensitive to differences between "compatible" characters by default 22:07
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lue Are 'A' and 'a' the same grapheme? [I can't find a straight answer] 22:08
dduncan I believe not
lue
TimToady if there's a different policy, it should be via pragma
lue: certainly not
dduncan I thought it prudent for Perl 6 to have some pragma indicating the grapheme abstraction level of the source code it is in, analogous to the "use utf8" or "use encoding" of Perl 5 22:09
while we can say all Perl 6 is Unicode, there still remains those issues
lue I remember some unit where 'A' and 'a' are considered the same. I thought it was 'grapheme'. 22:10
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TimToady the default is supposed to be grapheme level, where grapheme is, more or less, unique NFC sequence of base plus any marks 22:10
dduncan A and a being the same is a higher level abstraction than grapheme
TimToady NFC implying that if there's a precomposed form, that's its "grapheme number" 22:11
dduncan I prefer to go by NFD (or NFKD) in terms of defining the semantics of when 2 things are equal, even if the storage is NFC, since there is more than one NFC for the same NFD sequence sometimes
TimToady and if not, we graduate to "NFG", where we make up temporary grapheme numbers for convenience.
dduncan NFC may work for storage, but semantics-wise it has issues
TimToady doesn't everything? :) 22:12
dduncan NFD lacks such issues as far as I know
TimToady I know the argument for NFD in terms of future compatibility
NFG also doesn't have the issue because it's never stored externally 22:13
dduncan AFAIK, even now, say take a single base letter and 2 accents, and there are 2 different representations in NFC
TimToady NFD too
dduncan in respect to having multiple representations of the same grapheme, yes 22:14
TimToady in NFG these are considered distinct graphemes, since appearance may depend on order of marking
dduncan but I see NFD/NFC/NFG as more of an implementation issue ... 22:16
mainly it is NF*/NFK* etc which is the more user-visible issue
TimToady indeed, and at that point we require explicit user input
dduncan same as case-sensitive vs not, accent-sensitive vs not
TimToady defaults should tend to not lose information 22:17
dduncan does the spec deal with that yet, or could you add something about it?
namely, how for a user to specify
TimToady ./S32-setting-library/Str.pod: our Str multi method nfkc ( Str $string: ) is export { 22:18
dduncan mainly I'm concerned about how source code is interpreted, or how identifiers compare 22:19
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dduncan how to be explicit about that 22:19
regular Str data is easy in comparison 22:20
TimToady that would be by pragma, about which I tend to be very conservative, in the hopes that nobody ever really needs it :)
dduncan it would be good for future-proofing though 22:21
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dduncan or so that when people care, there is some documented default for how to interpret older code that didn't declare it explicitly 22:21
TimToady it won't be something that is difficult to standardize if the need arises 22:22
the default will be NFG in some form 22:23
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TimToady and for the moment, NFC is a good enough approximation to that for most uses that aren't explicitly trying to push the Unicode envelope. 22:26
(well, and for languages that require graphemes lacking precomposed forms) 22:27
but most Perl 6 programs aren't written in those languages yet
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gfldex rakudo: my %h; grammar Foo { rule TOP { <bar>+ }; token bar { (.) { %h{$0} = 1 } } }; Foo.parse('abc'); say %h.perl; 22:47
p6eval rakudo ae66fe: OUTPUT«maximum recursion depth exceeded␤ in 'Any::postcircumfix:<{ }>' at line 1␤ in <anon> at line 1␤ in 'Any::postcircumfix:<{ }>' at line 1␤ in <anon> at line 1␤ in 'Any::postcircumfix:<{ }>' at line 1␤ in <anon> at line 1␤ in 'Any::postcircumfix:<{ }>' at line 1␤ in
..<anon> at …
gfldex known problem?
22:48 Diego_Grez left
gfldex the problem is %h{$0} 22:49
$0 should be $0.Str but is $0.Match and
TimToady a hash by default is supposed to stringify its keys 22:50
so %h{$0} should act like %h{$0.Str}
or %h{~$0} rather 22:51
gfldex shall I rakudobug?
22:51 dduncan left
TimToady looks like 22:51
hmm, it's probably trying to see if $0 is a slic 22:52
slice
which it can't be, since $ isn't supposed to flatten
gfldex does a hash require a key to be Str?
TimToady by default, yes 22:53
S09:1169 shows how to change that 22:54
though that's NYI
gfldex perlcabal.org/syn/ is still pointing at svn.pugscode.org for the *.pod 22:58
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colomon it's a well-known issue 23:16
so I presume it's reported already. 23:17
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Sec .say for ( [1], { [0, @^a Z+ @a, 0] } ... * )[^10] 23:31
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