»ö« Welcome to Perl 6! | perl6.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: irc.perl6.org or colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/perl6 | UTF-8 is our friend! 🦋
Set by Zoffix on 25 July 2018.
ugexe its utterly embarrassing, which i say this as someone who has made money using these "impossible to promote" tools 00:06
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Zoffix ugexe: why should the conferences split up? 00:08
ugexe why are they paired up in the first place?
Zoffix Good question.
ugexe so you can see the writing on the wall 00:09
that this nonsense leads to
Zoffix ugexe: no, I don't.
ugexe of course you don't 00:10
Zoffix ugexe: throwing around "shit" and "nonsense" doesn't help the actual fact that Damian Conway was asked not to mention the name of the language.
ugexe: what's your problem? Can you describe it directly instead of metaphors about walls? 00:11
ugexe "thanks" for "pointing" this out
k-man are there p5 devs who object to p6 being included in the perl confs?
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Zoffix ugexe: you're welcome. 00:12
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ugexe i'm sure one of your personalities is 00:13
Zoffix is what? Your problem?
[Coke] k-man: not that I noticed at the last TPC in utah.
gentlemen: this isn't helping. 00:14
Zoffix I don't know why any discussions occurring right now at all. We had a year and a half for all the discussions. It's now up to TimToady to make an executive ruling.
[Coke] ugexe: Zoffix asked if you could explain your point more directly. I don't think that's unreasonable; but if you don't want to you, then don't. no need to drag out a conversation you don't want to have. 00:15
ugexe yeah why should anyone discuss things that affect their lively hood
coke this isn't the first time i've explained my position
like ive mentioend before -- many of us are tired of arguing our points on this and just ignored it
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[Coke] heads off to zzz. 00:16
Zoffix ugexe: exactly! You ignored it! And those who were trying to solve the problem didn't and now are proceeding with actions announced well in advance, and all of a sudden you don't want to ignore the issue anymore and wish to discuss it
ugexe you are seriously complaining that I am objecting to this 00:17
that explains enough to me
Zoffix ugexe: more cryptic bullshit.
ugexe more unstable bullshit
Zoffix ugexe: I'm complaining that instead of participating in dialogue, you ignored it.
ugexe i did participate. i didnt participate in EVERY SINGLE THREAD on it 00:18
Zoffix ugexe: and now when the dialog that did happen was summarized, you complain that your point wasn't the dominant one.
ugexe give it a ret 00:19
rest
Zoffix Take your own advice.
ugexe you heard it here. shut up ugexe and let me push my view unchallenged. 00:20
Zoffix haha
Yeah, and yet I'm the "unstable" one. 00:21
You had a year and a half to challenge everything. 00:22
Instead you decided to self-exhile.
ugexe I did challenge everything. And now I'm still here doing so.
Zoffix ugexe: your challenge is not very convincing 00:23
ugexe how many times have you self-exhiled, including removing all your perl6 code from the ecosystem? made a big show of it
the difference is i just left irc
Zoffix ugexe: a couple. But I'm not the one complaining that my point of view was not included somewhere. 00:24
ugexe if that is how you are interpreting me voicing my opinion here, its incorrect 00:26
Zoffix ugexe: Why not write a blog post similar to mine, except one that demonstrates why creation of the alias is more detrimental than the current situation (such as the Damian's incident)? 00:27
It'd be more productive than calling people's ideas shit and me unstable.
ugexe that pretty patronizing after the conversation we just had
Zoffix ugexe: you seem to be just looking for a fight. 00:28
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ugexe yeah i self exhiled and popped in here all of a sudden looking to fight 00:29
because there is no way there could be any legitimacy to what i've said
perlawhirl hi perlers... I'm consistently getting a 'JIT ERROR: Negative offset for dynamic label 33' in some code... what would be the best way to troubleshoot the cause? 00:35
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Kaiepi i've never encountered a panic caused by libuv while testing before 00:44
guess there's always a first
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perlawhirl I'm on Centos 6. As it uses an older gcc/libc, I tend to hit bugs most users on more modern OS's do not :D 00:51
AlexDaniel perlawhirl: the last JIT ERROR I saw was golfed to one line, so maybe try golfing it 00:52
perlawhirl: also please file a ticket
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perlawhirl i've tried golfing it a little... but it occurs when I'm creating a bunch of objects using my module Net::Netmask. The object creation doesn't seem to do anything special, but i'll see if i can whittle it down to a root cause, and will raise a ticket 00:53
Kaiepi if you're a masochist you could compile gcc8 yourself 00:54
trust me it takes hours
AlexDaniel perlawhirl: you can file a ticket without a golf, and provide a golf later when you have it 00:55
for example, if you have steps to reproduce, that is helpful too 00:56
MasterDuke perlawhirl: i believe brrt fixed one cause of those kinds of errors recently, are you on HEAD? i think there have been some other reports after his fix, but am not 100% sure 01:04
perlawhirl yeah, i rebuilt from HEAD this morning after I saw lizmat's commit that referenced 'bit shift JIT' hoping it would fix the issue 01:15
but still occuring
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b2gills There was a recent change that caused (nearly) silent errors to stop being so silent 01:22
m: my $a = ('a' x 200).comb; $a ~~ s:g/<ws>// 01:23
camelia JIT ERROR: Negative offset for dynamic label 32
AlexDaniel b2gills: ouch, is this one ticketed?
b2gills That was on #perl6-dev
AlexDaniel b2gills: thanks, I filed a ticket 01:30
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timotimo i do believe we've already rootcaused it and a fix is close to being committed 01:34
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Kaiepi supplies are supposed to be able to have multiple taps open at the same time right? 02:02
AlexDaniel notable: Another SQUASHathon happened \o/. The winner is announced here: github.com/perl6/ecosystem/wiki/SQ...on#results 02:13
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
AlexDaniel I really liked the interactions during the squashathon. The idea of going to someone's repo and helping out is great 02:19
but it was hard, these repos didn't have enough LHFs I think
next month doc repo, should be somewhat easier I think 02:20
and I'm accepting ideas for December! :)
many interesting things can be done 02:22
there's advent calendar, v6.d release, etc. 02:23
SmokeMachine LHF? 02:25
AlexDaniel SmokeMachine: low-hanging fruit – tickets that are easy to resolve
nowadays labeled with `good first issue` or `easy to resolve` labels on github
LHF was previously used on RT
and we switched from RT to github issues some time ago 02:26
Geth doc: 757bdf9af6 | (Tom Browder)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/math.pod6
fix typos
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/math
tbrowder__ congrats to JJ! 02:28
aka jmerelo
Geth mu: e1b1fa3519 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | misc/perl6advent-2018/schedule
Start Advent 2018 Schedule
 02:29
SmokeMachine AlexDaniel: thanks 02:31
Geth mu: 35ad0df630 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | misc/perl6advent-2018/schedule
Claim 1st
 02:35
SmokeMachine .tell jmerelo congratulations for The SQUASHathon! And thanks for helping Red!
yoleaux SmokeMachine: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
Xliff \o 02:37
What's the best way to write roles where one rule depends on the attributes of another?
When I attempt to write the dependent one with no attributes and make it "also does Role1", it complains that the attribute is not define. 02:38
If I define the attribute in two roles, it complains that there are duplicate roles when I assign the dependent role to an object.
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Geth mu: eb0dce5e78 | (Zoffix Znet)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | misc/perl6advent-2018/schedule
reword title
 02:40
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Xliff \0 04:49
How do you schedule an event to run every x ticks?
moritz there's a Supply method for that, iirc 05:13
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Geth doc: 651d20bff4 | (Luis F. Uceta)++ | doc/Language/functions.pod6
Rephrase sentence and add small example
 05:15
doc: ef85fe00b7 | (Luis F. Uceta)++ | doc/Type/Signature.pod6
Add few minor fixes.

Remove I<> that wasn't being rendered inside C<>, fix a typo, etc.
synopsebot Link: doc.perl6.org/language/functions
Link: doc.perl6.org/type/Signature
doc: f759c7d56d | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | 2 files
Merge pull request #2366 from uzluisf/master

Rephase sentence and fix minor typo
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jmerelo Just in case someone is in the mood for answering SO questions: stackoverflow.com/questions/526962...m-grammars 06:07
yoleaux 7 Oct 2018 23:18Z <AlexDaniel> jmerelo: by any chance are you interested in this? colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log...10-07#l884
02:35Z <SmokeMachine> jmerelo: congratulations for The SQUASHathon! And thanks for helping Red!
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jmerelo .tell SmokeMachine thanks! Congratulations for what, exactly? 06:08
yoleaux jmerelo: I'll pass your message to SmokeMachine.
jmerelo .tell uzl, AlexDaniel: I don't have much time for translations. There's a small, but enthusiastic, Perl Spanish translation team that would probably be willing to help, anyway. 06:09
yoleaux jmerelo: What kind of a name is "uzl,"?!
jmerelo .tell uzl: I don't have much time for translations. There's a small, but enthusiastic, Perl Spanish translation team that would probably be willing to help, anyway.
yoleaux jmerelo: What kind of a name is "uzl:"?!
jmerelo .tell uzl I don't have much time for translations. There's a small, but enthusiastic, Perl Spanish translation team that would probably be willing to help, anyway.
yoleaux jmerelo: I'll pass your message to uzl.
jmerelo .tell uzl I can take a look anyway. 06:10
yoleaux jmerelo: I'll pass your message to uzl.
jmerelo .tell SmokeMachine I got the Camelia! Woohooo! I didn't know... 06:11
yoleaux jmerelo: I'll pass your message to SmokeMachine.
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Xliff .tell jmerelo At a guess, you are missing what would be self, since as a method, that is always passed first. 07:19
yoleaux Xliff: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
Xliff .tell jmerelo Regarding your SO question re: grammars. 07:20
yoleaux Xliff: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
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ToddAndMargo Hi All! Question: I am using `read` to read the first 400 bytes of a unknown file (could be a binary file). Once I have these 400 bytes in a variable of type "Buf", how do I turn that variable into something (a string?) that will allow me to use "contains" to search for patterns of characters? 07:49
p6 'my $fh=open "/home/linuxutil/To", :r; my Buf $f = $fh.read( 400 ); $fh.close; my $g=$f.Stringy; say so $g.contains( chr(0) );' Cannot use a Buf as a string, but you called the Stringy method on it in block <unit> at -e line 1 07:50
buggable New CPAN upload: File-XML-DMARC-Google-0.1.0.tar.gz by TYIL cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/T/TY/...1.0.tar.gz
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moritz ToddAndMargo: you have to decode it 08:01
ToddAndMargo: and you can use Latin-1 as the encoding 08:02
ToddAndMargo Can you point me to the directions? 08:04
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ToddAndMargo I just want to dig trouhg the bytes to see if it contains any 0H000's 08:04
moritz docs.perl6.org/type/Buf.html
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ToddAndMargo buf8 Buf[uint8] ? 08:05
0H00 added an extra zero 08:07
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ToddAndMargo I will ask on the mailing list. 08:17
pmurias Zoffix: two big problems behind an official alias are that it creates confusion (for people that don't realize that it's really Perl 6) and creates resentment in some Perl 5 programmers (as it plays into the Perl 5 brand is dead sentiment) 08:20
buggable New CPAN upload: File-Zip-0.1.1.tar.gz by TYIL cpan.metacpan.org/authors/id/T/TY/...1.1.tar.gz
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Xliff m: "hello".encode.say 08:28
camelia utf8:0x<68 65 6C 6C 6F>
Xliff m: "hello\0\0".encode.decode('utf8').contains( chr(0) ) 08:29
camelia ( no output )
Xliff m: "hello\0\0".encode.decode('utf8').contains( chr(0) ).say
camelia True
Xliff m: "hello".encode.decode('utf8').contains( chr(0) ).say
camelia False
Xliff .tell ToddAndMargo "hello".encode.decode('utf8').contains( chr(0) ) ... You want the ".decode" part on. 08:30
yoleaux Xliff: I'll pass your message to ToddAndMargo.
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buggable New CPAN upload: File-XML-DMARC-Google-0.1.1.tar.gz by TYIL modules.perl6.org/dist/File::XML::D...:cpan:TYIL 08:40
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pmurias blogs.perl.org/users/pawel_murias/2...iling.html # rakudo.js update 09:27
masak woo
yoleaux 7 Oct 2018 09:59Z <brrt> masak: re macros, it might be interesting for you to learn that since I implemented hygienic macros in the the expression template compiler, I can actually abstract things that I couldn't in C
masak pmurias++
brrt: that is interesting. we should have a chat sometime 09:28
(simply because I need to keep the pool of peers whose brains stay solid when talking about macros as large as possible)
moritz def not me :) 09:33
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masak more than with any piece of software, with 007 I've felt how true the "debugging is twice as hard as writing the code" is 09:36
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masak just wait until you hit your first lexical-scoping-related bug 09:36
moritz I remember that breakfast in Kopenhavn where we first discussed macros 09:37
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masak that feeling when an over-eager parse causes a block entry to happen that shouldn't: github.com/masak/007/commit/e2dd3e...44aaf8d81b 09:39
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masak & 09:39
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lichtkind good morning 10:11
lizmat lichtkind o/ 10:13
lichtkind hugs liz
does anyone knows what happened to perl6.party/post/A-Request-to-Larr...for-Perl-6 ? 10:14
lizmat it's still there ?
lichtkind lizmat, so nowhere?
lizmat page works for me ? 10:15
lichtkind i mean the wish for second name
was this discussed?
moritz many times
lizmat www.reddit.com/r/perl6/comments/9m...e/e7cdgih/ # my opinion on the matter
lichtkind moritz, i read rejected 10:16
moritz lichtkind: renaming was rejected
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lichtkind moritz, technically it was just an alias but allright, thank you both 10:18
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moritz lichtkind: the distinction between rename and alias are kinda important 10:25
*is
lichtkind moritz, yes, that is why i asked since i knew the rename discussions well, but didnt heard about the alias thing 10:28
CIAvash lichtkind: People have been talking about it, but TimToady hasn't said anything if that's what you're asking 10:30
pmurias didn't TimToady agree that we can have aliases? 10:33
masak lizmat: I like your summary
pmurias having an "official" alias a bit like a covert way of getting a sort of a rename
masak I won't throw my hat in the ring in the renaming debate; all I will say is that it will always be name "Perl 6" in my head -- for better or worse 10:34
people can start calling it "Avocado" or whatever; my brain will still go "that's Perl 6 they're talking about"
CIAvash pmurias: I meant that he has not responded to the blog post 10:35
moritz ... and it's only been one way 10:36
lizmat actually, not renaming Perl 6 may benefit Perl 5 as well 10:38
lizmat knows of at least one case where Perl is used *extensively* without upper management of the company knowing about it 10:39
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lizmat and the dev team doesn't want anybody to know it's Perl that they're using 10:39
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lizmat making Perl more reputable with Perl 6 may help them using Perl 5 10:40
*keep using
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CIAvash Right now I'm neutral because I don't know if it will make things better or worse. Although I have had frustrating expriences too. 10:41
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Kaiepi is it possible to close an async server's socket? 10:44
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Xliff \o 11:09
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azawawi hi 11:10
Xliff m: say gather { for (^10) { take if .is-prime }; }; 11:12
camelia take without parameters doesn't make sense
in block at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: say gather { for (^10) { take $_ if .is-prime }; };
camelia (2 3 5 7)
Xliff m: say gather { for (^10) { .take if .is-prime }; };
camelia (2 3 5 7)
Xliff \o/
azawawi github.com/azawawi/ide-perl6 # syntax checking now works 🎉 WIP for other features and releasing the final thing to atom before the weekend hopefully 🙂
Xliff Oooh! For Atom? 11:13
azawawi++
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azawawi Xliff: and for VSCode, neovim, vim , etc afterwards :) 11:14
lizmat looks forward on being able to report that for next week's P6W :-)
azawawi all-in-one :)
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azawawi microsoft.github.io/language-serve...cification # for reference 11:14
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Kaiepi i'm so happy i'll finally be able to use code that i need for Net::Telnet like this if my pullreqs get merged hastebin.com/foxaqoquge.pl 11:18
azawawi lizmat: ping 11:23
lizmat pong
wamba p6: (1 ... {!.say}).head(3) 11:24
camelia 1
2
3
wamba p6: (1,2 ... {!.say}).head(3) 11:25
camelia 1
2
2
3
azawawi lizmat: What's our replacement for std.pm6 parsing in perl6 nowadays? so we can generate p6 program structure outline view
wamba p6: (1,*+1 ... {!.say}).head(3)
camelia 1
2
3
lizmat azawawi: I'm not sure, maybe moritz masak jnthn know ?
m: dd (1,*+1 ... {!.say}).head(3) 11:26
camelia 1
(1, 2, 3).Seq
2
3
azawawi lizmat: i remember a perl6 --target=something output some ast
lizmat ah that, --target=ast for initial AST 11:27
timotimo there's --output=parse, ast, and optimize
--stagestats gives you every stage you can put into --target, though not every stage can be dumped to the console
azawawi cool thx 11:28
the animated gif in github.com/rust-lang-nursery/atom-ide-rust explains what services we need to implement (find definition, outline, hover, etc) 11:29
wamba p6: (1,2 ... {!.say}).head(3) 11:31
camelia 1
2
2
3
wamba why is there "2" tests two times?
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timotimo tio.run/##K0gtyjH7/1/DUMdIQU9PT6Ha...aBhr/v8PAA 11:33
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timotimo github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...s.pm6#L194 11:34
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...s.pm6#L427 11:35
azawawi source code formatting => Perl6::Tidy maybe, keyword help => farabi6, rename => ??, goto-definition => ?? (we need to do some ast), outline => same thing 11:36
timotimo the first one is on the stack when 2 gets printed the first time, the second one is on the stack, in between lines 212, 432, and 444, when the second 2 is printed
azawawi lizmat: thanks 11:39
azawawi work &
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Xliff If people have the time, would you mind looking at this and commenting? 11:41
github.com/Xliff/p6-GtkPlus/blob/m...erties.pm6
I think I have it right. Just want to make sure my use of gather/take is proper. It usage just clicked like 40 minutes ago. 11:42
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araraloren gather take is slower than the normal way 11:43
yoleaux 7 Oct 2018 17:41Z <El_Che> araraloren: ping me about the rakudo-pkg problem so we can have a look. Feel free to raise an issue in github
Xliff araraloren: What's the "normal" way? .grep? 11:45
And how much of a performance hit are we talking?
wamba timotimo: thank you for explanation
araraloren yeah, Make a new Array, or grep
Xliff araraloren: Ah! Thanks. 11:46
timotimo lazy hashes don't actually exist
so the gather there would immediately be eager-ified
the code should be equivalent to %( do for (...) { @names[$_] => @values[$_] } )
araraloren Xliff IDK, but it is slower, and I think you don't need that
Xliff araraloren: OK! Thanks for that tip. I will look at redoing it. 11:47
araraloren welcome
Xliff But... I kinda wanna leave it after I went through the trouble of finally grokking
:)
wamba p6: say 1,2,3,4,5 ... * > *' 11:49
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Two terms in a row
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say 1,2,3,4,5 ... * > *7⏏5'
expecting any of:
infix
infix stopper
postfix
statement end
statemen…
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wamba p6: say 1,2,3,4,5 ... * > * 11:49
camelia (1 2 3 4)
Xliff timotimo: Oh! Thanks.
So is gather take more for lazyness? 11:50
s/lazyness/laziness/
araraloren yeah
timotimo i'd say so, though there's an optimization for when gather/take is used in an eager context 11:51
normally take will store a continuation of the gather block so that the next .pull-one can resume the code where it left off
Xliff Ah!
timotimo but when it's eager, it'll just push the value to the result array and continue without going through the continuation mechanism
lizmat timotimo: does it ? 11:52
timotimo i believe so
Xliff The only reason why I used that is because I didn't realize the pairs would propagate to the return. Is that the result of 'do'? 11:53
ufobat_ sena_kun, have you had some time to look into it, or should i make another issue out of my gist?
timotimo do is used to turn a for loop into an expression
Xliff Right. OK. I just never thought to use it in a loop. I always use 'do' to take the last value of a block and assign to a variable. 11:54
timotimo if for doesn't come right at the start, or after a "do", it'll be interpreted as a statement-end-for, and then the parser will get confused by the presence of a block
Xliff TIL!
sena_kun ufobat_, sorry, not yet. Yesterday I was not able to get out of my bad, yet alone code something properly, and the amount of things is not decreasing either. :/ 11:55
Xliff So would the !checkNames and !checkValues methods be better written with .grep?
sena_kun ufobat_, I think, please, open an issue with some details / a gist to reproduce and we'll work on it eventually, sorry again. 11:56
timotimo Xliff: i personally would use grep, yeah
Xliff OK, thanks!
araraloren++ && timotimo++ 11:57
timotimo another thing is that when you "die" inside a gather/take and it's being consumed lazily, then the exception will arrive while iterating
if you do it eagerly, it'll be thrown immediately when !checkNames is "still running"
Xliff So... better with .map -- not .grep 11:59
timotimo it's fine to die inside of grep, too 12:00
ufobat_ sena_kun, no need to say sorry :-)
Xliff Yeah, but I need to return a list of either Str or GValue objects, especially if they need to be co-erced. 12:01
timotimo oh
right, map makes more sense in that case 12:02
seems like my waking up hasn't finished yet
Xliff :)
Last thing.
If I need a type coerced to a specific type in a specific package, will calling the fully packaged type name be sufficient?
So if my GValue is in A::B, then can I do self.A::B::GValue() 12:03
timotimo coercions are implemented as methods on the object that are named the same as the type; i haven't ever thought about how it interacts with packages, but what A::B::GValue will give you is the method that A::B provides which is looked up in self 12:04
so that will only work if your self also inherits from or mixes in A::B
Xliff Ah. That's weird.
wamba p6: say 1,2,3 ... { say "$^a,$^b"; $^a > $^b } 12:05
camelia 1,2
2,3
3,2
(1 2)
timotimo it's for when you want to call superclass' implementations of a specific method
12:05 pmurias left
timotimo or when you want to disambiguate between roles that offer the same method 12:05
Xliff Because when I have something like sub(GValue() $v) { ... }, I needed to create "method A::B::GValue" to return the coerced type.
timotimo i'd expect it to "just" use GValue as the name in that case
though i'd have to check 12:06
Xliff Would it then be better to do "my GValue() $v = $my_object_to_coerce"
timotimo it's possible to invoke a method called A::B::GValue, though, it just occurs to me
self.'A::B::GValue'()
that could be the right way to go about it
Xliff aHA!
timotimo anyway, i gotta go AFK for a bit
Xliff I will check.
timotimo i hope this leads to success
Xliff It's kinda important, as this is the latest long-term refactor I have to do, now.
So I need a path to completion. ;) 12:07
Well, it compiles OK.
This is promising.
timotimo it really comes down to how GValue() is implemented, i.e. what exact method name the coercer will call for you 12:09
BBL 12:10
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jnthn Kaiepi: Just be .close of the tap that comes back from .listen 12:23
*by
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Xliff Hi, jnthn 12:31
jnthn o/ Xliff 12:32
Xliff I think I am close to a not-so generic method of signal handling with Supplies. 12:33
jnthn :)
Xliff The problem is that my first attempt at it isn't working.
This is a bit messy, but it is mostly working. 12:34
The only problem is that it doesn't draw anything.
github.com/Xliff/p6-GtkPlus/blob/m...-overlay.t
LOL!
That is a port of this: github.com/sweckhoff/GTK-Cairo-Sin...oid_plot.c 12:35
Is it possible to get two roles to use the same attribute? 12:36
lizmat you mean with same name, or actually referring to the same attribute ? 12:38
if the latter, then that can only be done if you make it a public attribute and use the accessor
afaik
Xliff lizmat: OK. So I HAVE to have get/set for that role so that it can be used by other roles. 12:39
Damn.
lizmat atm, afaik, yes
Xliff I was hoping I was missing a trait. That way two roles can exist that use the same attribute. Especially when one role must work independently of the other. 12:40
I guess the only way to accomplish that is to decouple the attribute from both roles and have them both use that role.
lizmat m: role A { has $!a }; role B does A { method b { $!a } }
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Attribute $!a not declared in role B
at <tmp>:1
------> 3!a }; role B does A { method b { $!a } }7⏏5<EOL>
Kaiepi which code are you talking about jnthn?
lizmat m: role A { has $!a }; role B does A { method b { $.a } }
camelia ( no output )
Xliff lizmat: Yes, but both roles need read-write. 12:41
lizmat has $.foo is rw ?
Xliff And in my case, Role A may not be used with Role B, but in most cases they are.
So for that case... 12:42
m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { also does A; method b { self.a %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { method new { self.b }; }; Aa.new 12:45
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition
at <tmp>:1
12:45 epony left
Xliff See... that's a problem. 12:46
Because sometimes A and B need to work together.
m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { also does A; method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new 12:47
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition
at <tmp>:1
Xliff m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { also does A; method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new;
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition
at <tmp>:1
lizmat Xliff: abstract it into a role C that both A and B do ? 12:49
Xliff It would be nice if ℵ could do "has %.foo is shared" so that multiple roles can compose it. 12:50
lizmat: I thought that was what I was doing with role ℵ
The problem comes when a class needs both A and B. See class AA in the above example.
lizmat Xliff: but you're also doing A in B 12:51
then you don't need to do M, right ?
m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new 12:52
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared name:
Aa used at line 1. Did you mean 'AA'?
Xliff lizmat: A previous example did that, yes.
lizmat m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { method new { self.a; self.b }; }; AA.new
camelia No such method 'a' for invocant of type 'AA'. Did you mean 'b'?
in method new at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
lizmat m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does A { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { method new { self.a; self.b }; }; AA.new 12:53
camelia Cannot look up attributes in a AA type object
in method foo at <tmp> line 1
in method a at <tmp> line 1
in method new at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
lizmat hmmm
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Xliff lizmat: ^^" 12:53
Roles that shared an attribute never came up in the language design? 12:54
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lizmat not sure... was busy keeping myself alive when that happened 12:54
Xliff Oh. Sorry to hear. Didn't mean to dredge up pain.
jnthn Kaiepi: You asked earlier how to stop a server socket listening
yoleaux 12:47Z <lizmat> jnthn: the difference between my $a := 42 and my \a = 42 appears to be one less QAST::Var(lexical $a :decl(var))
12:47Z <lizmat> jnthn: is that something to pursue in the core setting, to get rid of those QAST::Var's ? 12:55
Xliff I will try to find the right Synopsis
Kaiepi oh
jnthn lizmat: new is a constructor, you can't call an instance method in there
Kaiepi but doesn't the socket for the server object still exist?
masak Xliff: roles do share an attribute, no? 12:56
Xliff masak: Aparently not.
m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { also does A; method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new;
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition
at <tmp>:1
masak Xliff: right, just noticed 12:57
Xliff :)
jnthn Kaiepi: Exist where?
Xliff: Sorry, tad tied up with work at the moment so can't look through the code in detail right now 12:58
Kaiepi wait, i'm forgetting the socket is just an int when it's not listening or anything
masak Xliff: in some sense, this makes sense -- roles are composed, so a collision is sort of the easiest thing that can happen
Xliff jnthn: No problem. Take your time. I have a large scrollback for a reason.
masak: I agree. I was hoping there was an elegant workaround, however.
I have a hack. But those are nasty. 12:59
jnthn Kaiepi: Pretty sure at the MoarVM level we drop the listener from the active handles and then it all becomes collectable
masak Xliff: oh, right, you're the person on this channel who runs into a problem and then keeps beating your head against it instead of compromising and moving on :P
Kaiepi ah
masak Xliff: no offense -- it's probably a great way to learn things
Xliff masak: :P
I solved the last one, BTW.
masak great
Xliff Well... lizmat did.
Kaiepi right, the socket doesn't get created until the server's tapped iirc
Xliff It was a bug.
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Xliff masak: And I did compromise. I have a hack. It does work. It just puts extra responsibility on the invoking classes. 13:00
Which is fine, as long as it works.
jnthn Kaiepi: Yes, indeed.
Xliff I am not as dense as you think I am. 13:01
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lizmat m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; } }; role B does A { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist } }; class AA does B { method bar { self.a; self.b } }; AA.new.bar # Xliff this seems to work ? 13:01
camelia ( no output )
masak Xliff: again, no offense intended. I was once where you are now, asking about everything. it's a great way to learn.
Xliff: specifically, I did not imply you're in any way dense
Xliff :)
masak Xliff: just that you have a tendency to tilt at problems as if they're windmills
if anything, I recognize that trait in myself ;) 13:02
Xliff LOL
You sould look at my latest windmill.
github.com/Xliff/p6-GtkPlus
masak <-- has been trying to implement macro hygiene semantics for 3.5 years now
moritz I kinda remember that masak++ was very good at work-arounding when writing the November wiki 13:03
masak ah, memories
yeah. first do the workaround, then file the RT tickets
and discuss on channel. great way to learn indeed
Xliff I just attained enlightenment on gather/take. 13:04
masak Xliff: anyway, I distinctly remember discussing attribute (non-)merging in role composition back in the day
Xliff And then proceeded to completely remove all of the code I wrote that used it.
masak: I can understand the reason behind not wanting to merge attributes, but there are situations in mixing where it would be helpful. 13:05
jast you're one step ahead of me, then... I know I need to delete a fair bit of code, but I still have to make up my mind which fair bit it will be :)
Xliff Particularly when two roles can work independently doing a portion of the same work. 13:06
jast: Heh. I know. I shed one tear when I did it. Just one.
jast one of my most productive days I wrote 1000 lines of code... and deleted 3000
Xliff One step forward and three steps back. 13:07
masak Xliff: seems to me attribute merging could just as easily be a convenience as it could be a trap for the unwary
Xliff But that's only bad when you are trying to go somewhere.
When you can remove code and make it better, you are doing something right.
jast well, no user-visible changes as a result
I basically despaghettized an inherited codebase
Xliff masak: And how many other features of Perl6 could be put in that same bucket? :) 13:08
masak that's not a particularly good counterargument
Xliff: I mean, it could just as easily be "the same" attribute used from two roles, as it could be two distinct attributes that just happen to share a name
I do not look kindly on an argument such as "other features are potentually dangerous too, so let's be less careful with this one!"
Xliff Yes. That's why I like the idea of decoupling the attribute and its accessors from the roles that use it.
jast I like the "pit of success" argument: make the behaviour the default which has the least potential for misuse and surprises 13:09
Xliff You could then add a trait "is shared" to allow roles to merge that attribute if used together.
masak: Not to belittle your point, but I have run into a use-case where it would be more elegant to have a shared attribute between roles, than to have them implement different, stand-alone ones. 13:10
jast in that sense I wouldn't mind this as an optional behaviour, but I'm not sure what would be a good way of making it available
Xliff Arguably, I'd need to see your arguments against to determine if my use-case is worth attention.
masak jast: yes, agreed. 13:11
Xliff For now, each role has its own attribute, but each object will need to free each individual list, when the code to do that cleanup is the same, regardless of role.
Yes, that cleanup code is abstracted, but it would be nice to make one call instead of umpteen. 13:12
masak m: role R { has $!x = "OH HAI" }; class C does R { method foo { say $!x } }; C.new.foo
camelia OH HAI
masak Xliff: attributes are not private to roles
Xliff (and yes, I exaggerate)
13:13 AlexDani` is now known as AlexDaniel
Xliff masak: Yes. However you miss the point of my argument. :/ 13:13
m: role ℵ { has %.foo is rw }; role A does ℵ { method a { %.foo<a> = 1; }; }; role B does ℵ { method b { %.foo<b> = 2; %.foo.gist}; }; class AA does B { also does A; method new { self.a; self.b }; }; Aa.new;
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Attribute '%!foo' conflicts in role composition
at <tmp>:1
Xliff When role A and B are used together, it's intended that they use the same attribute to store their resource use. 13:14
masak Xliff: my point is this: if (in your proposed semantics) attributes are not shared by default, by what mechanism do they not collide if several distinct ones of the same name are composed in a class?
Xliff Ah! I see.
In that example, as long as a role does ℵ, then it is shared. 13:15
However if another role comes along that defines %.foo, it is a conflict.
jast hmm, that actually makes sense to me 13:16
Xliff If a role does ℵ and still defines %.foo, it is a conflict
(actually, it would be a redeclaration...)
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masak I like how you needed to `also does A;` to expose your problem :P 13:17
jast this would require tracking the origin of each attribute definition... I'm not familiar with the current implementation though
Xliff In that situation, you could say that said role would override the shared %.foo
But that behavior is out-of-scope.
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Xliff masak: That is exactly the point, though. 13:17
Both A and B do ℵ which has a shared %.foo. 13:18
And in that case, the collision isn't a collision at all!
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Zoffix pmurias: and having a "Perl 6" doesn't create resentment in Perl 5 folks? 13:20
pmurias: and having everyone pick arbitrary names when they're asked not to name the language they're presenting doesn't create confusion?
pmurias Zoffix: at YAPCs I haven't seen resentment in Perl 5 folks towards Perl 6 13:23
masak besides which, I do not want to shoulder someone else's resentment, whatever the reason
Zoffix I trust moritz's description of Damian's incident is true, in which case IMO the naming issue is a lot worse than I thought. I don't know how you can completely ignore that and say that nothing's wrong.
pmurias Zoffix: I don't ignore that, I understand the reasons for not wanting to use the Perl name 13:24
Zoffix: there is some online, but largely the sentiment in real life from Perl 5'ers is that it's super cool and from some of the high profile Perl 5er would switch often if it wasn't slow 13:25
El_Che I think most people accept there is a problem
but some believe it will go away with time, some don't
Zoffix pmurias: it's already being used. All I'm saying is let's agree on a single alternate name to use instead of making up wizard names each time.
AlexDaniel El_Che: I'm not so sure about that 13:26
masak writes some Perl 6 instead of discussing its name
pmurias Zoffix: you don't need to have an "official" alias to agree on it 13:27
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El_Che AlexDaniel: are there people in the "there is no problem"-camp? 13:28
let's call it masak ("Masak: it gets shit done") 13:29
Zoffix pmurias: in my backlog a screen above, a Rakudo core developer is calling me unstable and mentally ill for merely compiling the naming discussions together in one blog. How long does your plan of agreeing on one unofficial alias will take?
Kaiepi go and golang are synonymous and people have no problem with it 13:30
Zoffix pmurias: I want TimToady to pick an official alias to put all these discussions to rest.
pmurias Zoffix: that's the effect trying to get rid of the Perl names will have on some people 13:32
Zoffix pmurias: but that's not what we're doing.
AlexDaniel Zoffix: I appreciate your work on that issue 13:33
and I'm happy that it's moving somewhere
finally
Zoffix pmurias: the alternate name is already in use. "Camelia" on Perlmonks, "Rakudo" in some other places, "Albus" in Damian's talk when he was asked not to say the language name. We're not moving anywhere from any Perls. We're not splitting any confs. We're just merging all those made up names into a single one to have some consistency.
pmurias Zoffix: sure, but it looks a lot like that 13:34
AlexDaniel El_Che: you've seen it already, I think it's one of the examples colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log...10-07#l640 13:35
Zoffix AlexDaniel: I don't think it's moving anywhere. The alias proposal was the first thing on 6.d-prep TODO list and no one blinked an eye. Now that's it's finally done, suddenly I'm unstable.
pmurias Zoffix: I feel like Larry picking an official alias would be giving it "official" support
13:36 regreg_ left
Zoffix pmurias: and why is that bad? 13:36
AlexDaniel Zoffix: don't worry about it too much, any change is hard 13:37
pmurias because it gives it make it seem like the alias is more official than the "Perl 6" name itself
jast I kind of doubt that
it's not like the moment an official name is announced all the URLs and the tagline on the official website will change 13:38
AlexDaniel Zoffix: my university changed it' name. This required domain name change (so all emails are now also different) as well as all printed labels, signs, etc. had to be changed as well
Zoffix pmurias: that logic doesn't make sense to my mind.
AlexDaniel Zoffix: it was fun to watch, especially in context of an alias for perl 6
Zoffix AlexDaniel: many vendors at my job change logos, names, etc. That includes all the packaging changes.
jast *official alias. my bad.
13:39 pmurias left
AlexDaniel Zoffix: also people (who work in the university) are unhappy, because they don't like the name or whatever 13:39
Zoffix heh
AlexDaniel even though it is technically better
Zoffix
.oO( South Hampton Institute of Technology )
jast .oO( People's Front of Judea ) 13:40
SmokeMachine .
yoleaux 06:08Z <jmerelo> SmokeMachine: thanks! Congratulations for what, exactly?
06:11Z <jmerelo> SmokeMachine: I got the Camelia! Woohooo! I didn't know...
13:40 pmurias joined, p6bannerbot sets mode: +v pmurias
SmokeMachine .tell jmerelo :) 13:40
yoleaux SmokeMachine: I'll pass your message to jmerelo.
pmurias Zoffix: that's at least how I view the intentions behing the proposal 13:42
* viewed 13:43
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pmurias Zoffix: btw have you consider refering to Perl 6 just as "6" 13:44
Zoffix pmurias: it would be of equal status to "Perl 6", in fact, slightly less, given the $*PERL dyn var, PERL6_* env var, `perl6` binary, etc.
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Zoffix pmurias: what about just a blank space? 13:44
AlexDaniel Zoffix: another possibly related issue was RT → GitHub switch. A lot of people were against and didn't see any problem, then suddenly nobody wants to touch RT anymore
even though I agree that GitHub is LTA, and maybe especially after Microsoft acquisition. But for development and for users, from convenience standpoint, it's just better 13:45
Zoffix AlexDaniel: oh yeah, I remember the huge winging and bikeshedding against the switch and when we finally did no one even blank an eye.
And that's exactly why TimToady needs to pick an alias instead of hoping to come to agrement on an unofficial one. People love to discuss 13:47
Like, why would I refer to "Perl 6" as just "6"? 13:48
"Hacktoberfest! Send 5 PRs to 6 and win a shirt!" 13:49
"Local mongers today: 6 presentation!"
AlexDaniel ahhh, that one made me chuckle 13:50
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pmurias Zoffix: I feel you just want a rename and are just trying to get it some roundabout manner 13:51
AlexDaniel 6lang is basically that, just googleable and clearer
pmurias: so you're worried that people will prefer the alias so much that “perl 6” will be given up completely? 13:52
because if they don't, “perl 6” as the main name will just stay 13:53
and everyone who can't use it for any reason will just use the alias
everyone wins, no?
13:54 aindilis left
Zoffix pmurias: I do want a rename. Then people, including ugexe, said they don't want it. So as a compromise between two camps, the alias idea came to be. It can be a rename if the alias will become so much more popular than "Perl 6" that no one uses "Perl 6", but it will be a natural death of the name and not a result of some kind of secret mastermind scheme of mine. It's as I've said in my blog, the alias is the 13:55
means for the rename crowd to prove their claims of the alias being superior. If it isn't, then no one will use it and the "perl 6" name will stay dominant.
lizmat Zoffix: that feels like an Edsel to me :-(
Zoffix lizmat: Edsel the car? 13:56
lizmat yup
Zoffix "Historians have advanced several theories in an effort to explain the Edsel's failure. Popular culture often faults the car's styling. Consumer Reports has alleged that poor workmanship was the Edsel's chief problem. Marketing experts hold the Edsel up as a supreme example of the corporate culture's failure to understand American consumers. Business analysts cite the weak internal support for the product 13:58
inside Ford's executive offices. According to author and Edsel scholar Jan Deutsch, the Edsel was "the wrong car at the wrong time."
lizmat: I don't see how unifying the alternate name people use fits into any of that.
pmurias eta-lang is also doing the rename to hide the fact it's haskell on the jvm
AlexDaniel: making the alias "official" seems to be like something that would give "official" status to the "we are getting rid of the Perl brand" movement 13:59
Zoffix Think of it this way: if TimToady stays silent and no alias gets created, PerlMonks will continue to use "Camelia", I will start using "Rakudo" again, Damian will continue using "Albus" or some other wizard name, and ugexe will use "Perl 6". If TimToady makes Foo alias. PerlMonks will use "Foo", I will use "Foo", Damian will use "Foo", and ugexe will use "Perl 6". I see progress for the first three and no 14:01
change for the last one.
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Zoffix pmurias: IMO ignoring the desire to get rid of the Perl brand will just lead to someone getting sufficiently fed up to make a hostile fork and move on. 14:02
moritz I agree with Zoffix's reasoning here
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lizmat the idea of being the best thing to both worlds and winding up with something that does't please anybody 14:02
Zoffix lizmat: to me, it's not best of both worlds but a compromise. 14:03
pmurias Zoffix: why do you want to have TimToady choose the "official" "community alias"
Zoffix pmurias: so I wouldn't have to eyeroll at proposals of using "6" as unofficial alias. Or "+-1" or "perlsex" or any other ridiculous proposal. 14:04
pmurias all the renamers could just agree to a vote and vote 14:05
AlexDaniel hehe yes everyone can just agree
Zoffix pmurias: the "perlsex" won the last vote, as I recall
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moritz an edict from our BDFL is the best way to achieve some form of common focus 14:06
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Zoffix Ah, no it was third: www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=1217692 14:06
With Perl 6 and Perl++ being the top choices, both of which miss the point of the alias. 14:07
And yeah, Rakudo is the top one without "Perl" in it. 14:08
moritz also, the selection of items to land on that list hasn't been democratic at all, and the poll was mostly directed at a Perl 5 audience
lizmat indeed. And at the current time, it would have one vote less for "Perl 6" because I've decided to not do Perlmonks anymore 14:11
and I'm not the only one
so that is a very biased poll indeed 14:12
both in selection of options, as in the audience
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Geth p6-sake: 08ce6c0628 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | META6.json
Fix “provides” section (oops)
 14:14
Kaiepi using rakudo as the secondary name would be like calling frontend javascript node.js 14:16
timotimo except javascript has already had many implementations in the past that are still in use
Zoffix lizmat: why are you not doing Perlmonks anymore?
lizmat Because of all of the shit I got directed at me
timotimo whereas the prior implementations of perl6 have all been discontinued, except for fanlang, which is to my knowledge not public
AlexDaniel Kaiepi: yeah, it's really weird 14:17
Zoffix Would the unofficial alias have a footing in the docs? As in, would a person writing documentation who prefers to use the alias instead of "Perl6" be able to use it in a sentence or would they be forced to use "Perl 6" always? 14:18
Kaiepi i think the docs should use the official name
but mention that the alias exists
moritz only an official alias 14:19
AlexDaniel Zoffix: I think docs can be neutral in most cases (i.e. not spelling out the name at all)
and it can depend on the document, too
for example 5to6 docs will surely use Perl 6 because that totally makes sense 14:20
Zoffix Well, yeah, then unofficial alias doesn't really solve anything if people can't freely use it in official spaces. There's no selection of the fittest happening for the name. And the naming bikeshed will return eventually. 14:21
AlexDaniel Zoffix: that's a different issue, and there are many possible solutions. I wouldn't worry about it too much 14:23
Zoffix: I'm just thinking out loud, but, for example, the name can depend on the domain
or something like that 14:24
pmurias why should offiical spaces use a community alias?
Zoffix pmurias: because otherwise we're not changing anything? 14:26
pmurias you could have a docs.randomcrapname.org do automatically to a s// substituation
s/do automatically/do automatically
s/do automatically/automatically add :(
AlexDaniel well, that's what I was trying to say, but without the word “crap” 14:27
still, IMO, in most cases there is a way to phrase things without saying the name all the time 14:28
we can open a ticket for that
Zoffix AlexDaniel: so... picking the list of all the suggestions received so far (except "perlsex") and making a poll until 27th, and going with that as unofficial alias? Is that the plan? 14:30
AlexDaniel Zoffix: it could be, but for clarity, what happened to the original idea of leaving it to TimToady? I may have missed something 14:31
ahhh you're saying unofficial
but again, why unofficial if we can first wait for the official one? 14:32
pmurias Zoffix: you can even call that the "community alias" if it's chosen by a vote
AlexDaniel I'm really missing something it feels like
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Geth doc: finanalyst++ created pull request #2369:
Language page categories		 14:33
Zoffix AlexDaniel: well, I don't know if TimToady will even respond (he didn't say he'd pick one when I asked if he were open for making one last week). I rage-quitted our FB group because I got spammed to death by people saying they're against the rename. ugexe called me mentally unstable while dissing the idea of the alias as "this shit", and pmurias thinks I'm an evil mastermind weaving a scheme for a full rename. 14:34
AlexDaniel Zoffix: … nice. Let's maybe wait a bit, if I was TimToady I'd prefer to think a bit before doing any decision 14:35
Zoffix ok
AlexDaniel Zoffix: it will work fine as a backup plan if something goes wrong, we will lose a bit of time but that's not too critical I think 14:36
Zoffix ok
14:38 pmurias left
Zoffix s/the rename/the alias/; 14:39
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El_Che (I didn't know there was a name vote) 14:59
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cosimo what is the idea behind this "alias" initiative? 15:02
El_Che cosimo: I think Zoffix' post explains it pretty well 15:03
perl6.party/post/A-Request-to-Larr...for-Perl-6
cosimo thanks El_Che 15:04
thundergnal (Not seriosly proposing, just my own idle thoughts) I've always been slightly sad we didn't go with Opel. It's Perl! But with more objects, and less... (something that starts with r :-/) Unfortuantely there already is a (obscure) language called Opel.
El_Che You know about the cars, right? 15:05
thundergnal Or Nacre. It's <strike>mother</strike> sister of Perl!
jast more objects and less regular expressions ;)
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thundergnal El_Che yep, but cars aren't programming languages. 15:06
El_Che It does not matter, ideas are already associated to the existing brand
thundergnal Similar to Apple records that has nothing to do with Apple computers. 15:07
Ah well, just idle musings.
El_Che e.g. Call it LADA, RollsRoyce or Tesla
(Apple is a generic word, Opel a family name) 15:08
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El_Che and be sure, that in the Apple case attorneys were involved :) 15:08
thundergnal El_Che you did see the thing about "not seriously proposing" ?
El_Che en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_...e_Computer 15:09
thundergnal: I am serious 100% of the time
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El_Che thundergnal: people that know me can certify my claim 15:09
lizmat eh
timotimo www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct...le-germany
El_Che otherwise I'll sue them for defamation and calumny
thundergnal El_che: Snort :-) 15:10
El_Che :)
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jast remember when firefox was called firebird? remember when firebird was called phoenix? :) 15:12
(phoenix, which had the ambitious goal of fitting the entire browser on a floppy disk... and today firefox is bigger than netscape navigator 4) 15:15
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phogg Phoenix was already bigger than that, as I recall. 15:16
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jast I remember Netscape Navigator 4.something being around 6 MB and Phoenix 0.5 being 4.7 MB (give or take) 15:16
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tyil remember when browsers were still fast and didn't require you to have 16 gb of ram to read simple text articles 15:17
jast oh, you mean w3m
tyil yes 15:19
jast actually the installer for Netscape Navigator 4.08 was 9.7 MB on Windows 4.0+
phogg You can still get that, but it won't do everything a modern browser is expected to do. Netsurf is an example.
tyil basically any browser without js :'D
jast today's firefox download for macOS is 54.1 MB 15:20
phogg jast: I may be thinking of a later (early firefox) release. I don't seem to have it in my archives any more.
jast 38.3 MB for Windows
I was a little off the mark, but firefox is still bigger than navigator today... 15:21
ftp.mozilla.org/pub/phoenix/releases/0.5/
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jast don't trust the numbers too much... where the mozilla web server says the Windows installer for firefox 0.9 is "4M", the download actually weighs in at 5.9 MB 15:23
El_Che i.ytimg.com/vi/NpYEJx7PkWE/hqdefault.jpg
jast oh never mind, this toy OS here tricked me
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tyil I dont care much about storage size of the browser to be honest 15:36
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tyil I'm working in terabytes, I could care less about the browser being 55mb or 100mb in storage consumption 15:37
ram usage and speed, however
and bandwidth usage
and cpu usage
those have all increased far beyond reasonable numbers, even for the most simple of sites 15:38
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Kaiepi have you guys ever compiled firefox before 15:39
tyil yes
Kaiepi it's almost as bad as gcc
tyil I do it every release, which is every couple days nowadays
Kaiepi damn
tyil compiling it is the only way to sanely get rid of all the garbage Mozilla is putting in to it these days 15:40
Kaiepi are you using poudriere on freebsd?
tyil nope 15:41
Kaiepi or doing it on your computer
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Kaiepi oh 15:41
tyil I'm using Funtoo, and compiling usually on my desktop
but I can also compile on a server if needs be
I make binaries out of them which I then redistribute to my other machines 15:42
Kaiepi bsd ports allow you to do that as well
tyil I didn't like the tooling available for BSD ports, and their hardware support is behind GNU+Linux as well 15:43
Kaiepi nowadays i just use pkg on openbsd since its configurations for packages are reasonably sane
tyil works fine for VMs and the like, though
Kaiepi you don't like the tooling?
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Kaiepi i found it easier to use than gentoo 15:43
tyil I dont think any pre-compiled firefox is sane, an any distro/os these days
but that's mozilla's fault, not the distro/os maintainers 15:44
to make sane use of ports on bsd you need to install other ports that introduce management utils for dealing with ports
all the utils I need to get started with building packages on Funtoo/Gentoo are provided in the base install 15:45
Geth doc: efb41519ca | (Jason Cole)++ | 3 files
Document the Setty ops for MixHashes per TODO

Also added code examples to a note in BagHash.pod6 about .reverse and included that note in MixHash.pod6. Also a few grammar/accuracy touches.		 15:46
doc: 031027c660 | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | 3 files
Merge pull request #2358 from Coleoid/mixhash-todo

Document the Setty ops for MixHashes per TODO
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El_Che (the constant joining and quitting is annoying) 16:50
dylanwh weechat's smartfilters are really nice for this 16:51
tadzik I can't imagine using high-traffic channels withou tthem
dylanwh screenshots.firefox.com/aF8MyFTIKcn3cELL/null for non-weechat-ers 16:52
El_Che yeah, it should be trivial with irssi as well 16:53
dylanwh the thing is I can turn it off and see what I've missed too
like the messages are still there -- just hidden
so if someone joins and says something, retroactively I see their join message. 16:54
El_Che ah, nice indeed
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metelik hello folks 17:36
quick question on raw.githubusercontent.com/ugexe/Pe...cpan1.json
the resource seems to exist
yet with a zef command like
# zef install CSV::Parser 17:37
I am getting:
===> Searching for: CSV::Parser
!!!> Failed to update cpan mirror: raw.githubusercontent.com/ugexe/Pe...cpan1.json
!!!> Failed to update cpan mirror: raw.githubusercontent.com/ugexe/Pe.../cpan.json
===> Updated cpan mirror: git://github.com/ugexe/Perl6-ecosystems.git
any particular reason for the !!! messages?
another question we (NetBSD folks) would have is about us upgrading to zef 0.4.6 17:40
In our case the change is as follows:
do-build: 17:41
- cd ${WRKSRC} && ${ZEF} build . --debug
+ echo "Build of ZEF no longer needed skipping"
+# cd ${WRKSRC} && ${ZEF} build . --debug
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metelik according to zef-0.4.6/README.pod: $ git clone github.com/ugexe/zef.git 17:42
$ cd zef
$ perl6 -I. bin/zef install .
is our understanding correct ?
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buggable New CPAN upload: Sparrowdo-VSTS-YAML-Cordova-0.0.13.tar.gz by MELEZHIK modules.perl6.org/dist/Sparrowdo::V...n:MELEZHIK 18:30
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metelik we (NetBSD folks) would have is about us upgrading to zef 0.4.6 19:05
<metelik> In our case the change is as follows:
<metelik> do-build:
<metelik> - cd ${WRKSRC} && ${ZEF} build . --debug
<metelik> + echo "Build of ZEF no longer needed skipping"
<metelik> +# cd ${WRKSRC} && ${ZEF} build . --debug
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<metelik> according to zef-0.4.6/README.pod: $ git clone github.com/ugexe/zef.git
<metelik> $ cd zef
<metelik> $ perl6 -I. bin/zef install .
<metelik> is our understanding correct ?
lizmat ugexe nine ^^ 19:06
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shmup use lib 'path' makes sense for your project specific modules, while adjusting the PERL6LIB might make more sense for your other modules? 20:18
i'm asking to figure out if I'm going about this in a pretty "normal" way
as of now I'm splashing `use lib 'path'` around
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timotimo once you've installed the library to the system, you won't need "use lib" any more :) 20:19
and when you run your stuff out of the module's root folder where the META6 lives it'll pick up everything in the "provides" section
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shmup i don't want to install the library to the system 20:25
it is in active development
assume everything I said above was pertaining to my own modules, and their dev state 20:26
tobs Are the META6 structure and semantics documented somewhere? For the module I'm writing now, I just copied everything together until it worked
shmup i haven't really cared about META6 structures yet, in my 2 weeks of exploration
like i have some skeleton ones around but haven't needed them quite yet
El_Che tobs: there is this: docs.perl6.org/language/modules#Pr...the_module 20:27
shmup tobs: have you tried tihs? docs.perl6.org/language/modules#Ex..._importing
yes that is what i used El_Che, it is nice 20:28
El_Che ans this may be handy: github.com/gfldex/perl6-meta6-bin
lizmat shmup: modules in semi-finished state *can* be installed from their root directory with "zef install ."
shmup lizmat: and updates don't require additional `zef install .` ?
El_Che I certainly miss content, but do you need to install? 20:29
shmup lizmat: any benefits to that approach versus the other exporting/importing methods? (during development)
tobs hmm, yes, thanks. That answers more than I remembered.
lizmat if the version doesn't change, you would have to do "zef install . --force"
El_Che perl6 -Ilib bin/foo.p6
shmup that is a bad feedback loop
lizmat shmup: YMMV
shmup imo
yeah lizmat probably heh
El_Che PERL6LIB=lib bin/foo.p6
shmup ^ is a better feedback loop
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lizmat I've found it handy a few times when developing a role depending on another role in a different distribution 20:30
tobs the meaning of the "provides" key isn't entirely clear to me though. Surely I don't list every package in my module there?
shmup tobs: are you interested in these details for public consumption? or are you only interested in local development at the moment
i probably missed context above, selective reading etc
tobs starts reading El_Che++s link
no, there was no context. Your question reminded me of one I had. It's for public consumption though 20:31
and zef is fine with my META6 as it is, so I'm good to go at the moment
cognominal-p6 I would expect gist.github.com/cognominal/be3eb3d...adf73ba27a to give me an array of two lines because ws is lexical. What am I doing wrong ? It seem to me I once ran to a similar problem with ws. Not sure that was the same 20:35
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cognominal-p6 github.com/perl6/specs/issues/96 no one cane with the lexical ws. Maybe ws is special and cannot be lexical. That would be a bug. 20:37
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geekosaur I wold guess that, because it's compiled as part of the setting, the implicit <.ws> is the one in scope when that is compiled 20:38
cognominal-p6 I would expect a lexical ws to hide it.
geekosaur not the one when your code is compiled, and ws would need to become magical to do what you want, or the setting would need to be compiled along wth your code
cognominal-p6 my code is not in the setting :) 20:39
geekosaur exactly 20:40
your'e imagining that somehow it tacks the ws in scpe ontot he rule. I'm imagining that is dne as part of the definition of rule itself, so the ws in scope at that time is used
and there may be performance implications to changng it
cognominal-p6 Not so much after jnthn optimizations 20:44
m: grammar A { token a { a }; { my token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}. say b.parse('b') 20:46
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Two terms in a row
at <tmp>:1
------> 3token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}. say7⏏5 b.parse('b')
expecting any of:
infix
infix stopper
statement end
…
cognominal-p6 m: grammar A { token a { a }; { my token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}. say A.parse('b')
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Two terms in a row
at <tmp>:1
------> 3token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}. say7⏏5 A.parse('b')
expecting any of:
infix
infix stopper
statement end
…
cognominal-p6 m: grammar A { token a { a }; { my token a { b }; token TOP { <a> }}}; say A.parse('b') 20:47
camelia ｢b｣
a => ｢b｣
cognominal-p6 specific to ws indeed.
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lichtkind can i POD link into another document? 20:59
cognominal-p6 ws seems to be hardwired here github.com/perl6/nqp/blob/master/s...r.nqp#L956 21:03
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timotimo can't you "my token ws"? 21:27
Demos[m] are there any good, structured, ways to use dynamic vars? Like I have one type that gets used in the context of another, containing type
cognominal-p6 timotimo, that's what I do 21:28
timotimo does it work? 21:29
cognominal-p6 no
timotimo then maybe we should look into implementing what pmichaud mentions there, giving "sigspace" an argument
at first glance that shouldn't be very hard to implement? 21:30
cognominal-p6 checking S05 21:32
Anyway ws should not be special 21:33
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cognominal-p6 Also an argumented sigspace should be added to any rule. The block scope is more elegant. 21:36
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timotimo does it work for other things? like ww or ident? 21:37
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cognominal-p6 m: say 'bab' ~~ m:s( /a/ )/ b + / 21:39
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Adverb s value must be known at compile time
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say 'bab' ~~ m:s( /a/ )7⏏5/ b + /
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lizmat AlexDaniel: is there a Squashathon link ? 21:40
cognominal-p6 m: say 'bab' ~~ m:s( rx/a/ )/ b + /
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Adverb s value must be known at compile time
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say 'bab' ~~ m:s( rx/a/ )7⏏5/ b + /
AlexDaniel notable6: weekly
notable6 AlexDaniel, 8 notes: gist.github.com/fed4ec8388e5cb952b...98f6fc1c5b
lizmat AlexDaniel: with a report on what happened and a winner?
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AlexDaniel lizmat: yes, except that I don't know how to use my bots 21:41
lizmat: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log...10-08#l105
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AlexDaniel notable6: reset Another 21:42
notable6 AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “Another_2018-10-08T21:42:33Z”
AlexDaniel github.com/perl6/whateverable/issues/344 21:43
notable6: list 21:44
notable6 AlexDaniel, gist.github.com/c19b7f6a270402d9dc...a26fedaf08
AlexDaniel notable6: Perl
notable6 AlexDaniel, 2 notes: gist.github.com/fcb943a619fb63085f...10f8e6e05c
AlexDaniel notable6: reset Perl
notable6 AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “Perl_2018-10-08T21:44:50Z”
AlexDaniel notable6: weekly: 21:45
notable6 AlexDaniel, 1 note: 2018-04-30T20:07:38Z <El_Che>: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/releas...18.04.1-01
AlexDaniel notable6: reset weekly:
notable6 AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “weekly:_2018-10-08T21:45:09Z”
AlexDaniel notable6: that
notable6 AlexDaniel, 1 note: 2018-08-09T14:23:31Z <lizmat>: was with the bumped MoarVm
AlexDaniel notable6: reset that
notable6 AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “that_2018-10-08T21:45:26Z”
AlexDaniel notable6: list
notable6 AlexDaniel, gist.github.com/a01790eccbf3f16017...0f1e2d5b8b
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AlexDaniel I mean, notable6 is only used for weeklies, all this fancy functionality is not even needed 21:45
lizmat And another Perl 6 Weekly hits the Net: p6weekly.wordpress.com/2018/10/08/...ed-the-js/ 21:47
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cognominal-p6 yea 21:48
timotimo maybe in the future 21:50
AlexDaniel wow all that in one week
timotimo lizmat: no link to 6pad?
perl6.github.io/6pad/ - where you can put perl6 code and run it immediately, in your browser?
lizmat I've thought about it, but it seemed a bit premature to me 21:51
timotimo OK
lizmat I'd rather mention it next week when it is hopefully more fleshed out
people reading Pawel's articlle *will* find it anyway
AlexDaniel weekly: reset 21:52
notable6 AlexDaniel, Moved existing notes to “weekly_2018-10-08T21:52:15Z”
AlexDaniel weekly: perl6.github.io/6pad/ - where you can put perl6 code and run it immediately, in your browser
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
AlexDaniel weekly: next.oddmuse.org/ working prototype of a wiki engine written in Perl 6
notable6 AlexDaniel, Noted!
AlexDaniel same thing, probably better to mention next week :) 21:54
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lizmat weekly: scruss.com/blog/2018/10/08/𒐳-༳-⑽-𐹭...of-course/ 22:27
notable6 lizmat, Noted!
Demos[m] hey I'm having trouble doing something like what's in "github.com/perl6/roast/blob/master...-export.t" 22:28
saying use InnerModule :ALL :EXPORT works
but use InnerModule :EXPORT says "no tag export" and as does use InnerModule :ALL, :EXPORT
and I can't call methods or subs in the inner module no matter what 22:29
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Demos[m] ah that's a 6.d thing 22:41
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cognominal-p6 One can redefine ws but as lexical it is invisible 23:19
as a sigspace ?
m: say grammar A { token TOP { <ws> }; my token ws { a } }.parse('a') 23:23
camelia Nil
cognominal-p6 m: say grammar A { token TOP { <a> }; my token a { a } }.parse('a') 23:24
camelia No such method 'a' for invocant of type 'A'. Did you mean 'at'?
in regex TOP at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
cognominal-p6 m: say grammar A { my token a { a }; token TOP { <a> }; }.parse('a') 23:25
camelia ｢a｣
a => ｢a｣
cognominal-p6 m: say grammar A { my token ws { a }; token TOP { <ws> }; }.parse('a') 23:26
camelia ｢a｣
ws => ｢a｣
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AlexDaniel e: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; my %nums; for ^0x10FFFF { %nums{.unival}.push: $_ if !.unival.isNaN and try EVAL .chr }; for %nums.keys.sort(+*) { say “\n===== $_ =====”; for %nums{$_}.list { say .chr, ‘ 0x’, .base(16), ‘ ’, .uniname } } 23:47
evalable6
===== -0.5 =====
༳ 0xF33 TIBETAN DIGIT HALF ZERO

===== 0.00625 =====
൘ 0xD58 MALAYAL…
AlexDaniel, Full output: gist.github.com/fe4426dd96c7ebe7bb...26e1aa1264
AlexDaniel hah gist.githubusercontent.com/Whateve...4c2/result 23:53
some lines are right aligned
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