pugscode.org | temporary feather address: perl6.wall.org | sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse (show (scanl (*) 1 [1..] !! 4))
Set by allbery_b on 24 March 2007.
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dduncan I just read something interesting. Apparently the FSF considers the Artistic License 2.0 to be compatible with both the GPL v2 and GPL v3. In my interpretation, this means that if someone, eg the Perl Foundation wants to license Perl 6 under Artistic as an option, and not strictly under the GPL alone, then Perl 6 can simply be licensed under the Artistic 2.0 alone, rather than specifying a GPL disjunction ... anyone can still relicens 01:41
FYI, I got this from section 4.5 of the new gpl3-dd3-rationale-FINAL.pdf document. 01:42
dduncan back later
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jrockway pastespam? 02:05
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spinclad From S09 r14359: + my @seasons[4]; # Valid indices are 0..4 04:50
s:2nd/4/3/
(attn TimToady ^) 04:51
also in + my @calendar[12;*;24]; # "Month" dimension unlimited 04:56
Tene spinclad: try @tell 04:57
spinclad I see some debate as to whether that's the "Month" or "Day" dimension
ah, right, will do. nice to get up to date with current best practice. 04:59
Tene++ 05:00
Tene spinclad: use @tell TimToady bla bla bla bla
spinclad /msg lambdabot @tell ... 05:01
Tene or you can just do it in the channel 05:02
Either way. :)
spinclad in this case as it's already in channel I'll spam lambdabot privately. thanks tho. 05:03
Tene Heh, good plan. 05:04
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bsb Hi, is there a p5 regex -> p6 rules converter? 05:58
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gaal bsb! moose! 06:24
bsb hey gaal
gaal how's stuff? 06:29
Patterner Battle Star Balactica?
TimToady bsb: I believe Sage's translator does something with regexen. see misc/pX/Common/P5_to_P6_Translation
lambdabot TimToady: You have 10 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
bsb Patterner: kewl, I'm changing my surname to Gowman 06:30
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gaal TimToady: re: indexing patch, the section introducing sized arrays comes before multidims, so perhaps the text "Arrays may also be defined with a mixture of fixed and autoextending dimensions" should add a parantherical "see below" remark 06:30
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TimToady change your middle name to start with 'R' and you'll really confuse the IRCers... 06:33
Patterner yeah right, like those are not confused at the moment... 06:35
bsb TimToady: seems Sage's tacks on a :Perl5 and adjusts the captures 06:36
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bsb I'm actually looking for something p6exy to do, might try translating regexes -> rules 07:03
not that there's much point, other than educationally
gaal tmoertel++ # series of articles on io in haskell; latest installment == blog.moertel.com/articles/2007/03/2...e-lazy-i-o 07:27
lambdabot Title: Directory-tree printing in Haskell, part three: lazy I/O, tinyurl.com/2sap8r
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dduncan TimToady, your last large patch seems to have messed some whitespace, either leaving 2 blank lines or zero lines in a few places where 1 would be wanted 07:55
the zero is the worst case ...
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dduncan that is, the [ =head1 PDL signatures] has no blank line before it now 07:56
extra blank above [ =head1 The semicolon operator] 07:57
also, there is no blank line under [-=head1 Negative subscript dwimmery] 07:58
nevermind the last one
come to think of it, all the double blank lines are above =head1, so maybe you're doing that on purpose? If so, it would be good to make that more consistent 08:00
but regardless, the [ =head1 PDL signatures] is the most important to look at 08:01
with zero blanks
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dduncan question on the new docs ... 08:05
it says how to make shaped @array vars, and hashes, but how does one define an anonymous multidimensional array or hash?
value
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dushy hello all :) 08:17
bsb regarding P5_to_P6_Translation, I think I was wrong above. I've found some code translating metachars... 08:21
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svnbot6 r15804 | bsb++ | r434@ogum: bsb | 2007-03-29 18:35:59 +1000 08:38
r15804 | bsb++ | Corrected some typos in P5_to_P6_Translation docs and comments
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DarkWolf84 hi again 10:15
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Juerd STD.pm is prettier with '' 10:36
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webmind STD and pretty ? 10:40
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Juerd webmind: Have you seen STD.pm before and after? 10:53
webmind no
Juerd Have you ever seen it at all? 10:54
webmind no
I was referring to the name
moritz beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder ;)
webmind nm, lame joke
Juerd doesn't get it.
webmind hmm, weird.. dict doesn't know the meaning I was looking for 10:55
Sexually Transmitted disease
Juerd ... 10:56
Lame indeed :)
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webmind Juerd, told ya :) 11:02
DarkWolf84 where i can find the last pugs bugs 11:25
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DarkWolf84 info for them not the bugs :) 11:26
Tene allalone.org/segtest.pl -- this is a test case that segfaults for me. Can anyone else confirm? 11:28
using perl5:URI in an async{} 11:29
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moritz Tene: segfaults for me as well 11:38
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moritz Tene: with r15797 11:39
Tene: and with r15804 11:40
svnbot6 r15805 | fglock++ | v6.pm - fixed <'...'> in grammar
Tene goes to bed. 11:41
moritz Tene: 'night 11:43
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masak from S09: 'Note that the square brackets are a compile-time declarator, not a run-time operator, so you can't use the "dotted" form either' 14:26
why is it a compile-time declarator? 14:27
gaal the compiler can allocate a static buffer
masak gaal: but array element values are changed at runtime 14:28
isn't that the idea of an array?
masak has the feeling he's mixing up levels here
gaal the brackets there only indicate width
masak not in @dwarves[0] = "Happy"; 14:29
gaal that's not a declarator :)
masak oops, now I see my mistake
right
gaal my @dwarves[7]
masak yes
gaal or 6 or whatever :)
masak I'm ok with that
seven dwarves :)
[particle] 8 14:30
masak :)
gaal moose
masak I like the fact that the suggested continuous semantics of [*-1] was accepted 14:34
and [-1]
it felt like quite a jump away from p5
ajs my @hackers[Inf];
masak but still a much saner model
lumi Four or five magicians
moritz ... and a bottle of Rum! 14:35
gaal ajs: that's spelled @hackers[*] 14:51
unless I'm mistaken
lumi Not if you want the intinith hacker
s/int/inf/
gaal lumi: declaration, not subscription 14:52
lumi Oh right
gaal .[one more than you]
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DarkWolf84 why pugscc don't work at all 15:03
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ajs gaal: I would think that "my @hackers[*];" would create an array that can be arbitrarily sized. On the other hand, I would expect that "my @hackers[Inf];" would run out of memory and fail (perhaps at compile time). 15:20
gaal I acknowledge your distinction, but don't agree that the compiler has to fail. It may decide to be lazy about initialization. 15:23
ajs The compiler might not, you're correct, but since you're asking for a fixed array of infinite size, something needs to give. 15:24
Of course, a sane compiler will just say "no"
Compilation failed at line 1: ENO
;)
Mathematically speaking, Inf isn't an integer, so it would be fair for the compiler to say, "fixed array declarations must specify an integer, 0, or *" 15:26
moritz actually Inf is an acronym meaning "Inf not finite" ;-) 15:27
ajs And as all integers are, by definition, finite...
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stevan_ home.inklingmarkets.com/market/show/4018 17:50
lambdabot Title: Inkling Markets Public Marketplace
stevan_ cmon guys,.. we are the long shot
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moritz stevan_: the comparison is not fair, perl6 is going to be way more cooler than python3k 17:57
stevan_ thats true
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DarkWolf84 I c 18:06
:)
btw objects r mor esier than perl 5 18:09
moritz and more powerfull, of course ;) 18:13
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DarkWolf84 where I can find more about new socket methods 18:32
i saw in the examples http server 18:33
but that is not enogh 18:34
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moritz DarkWolf84: perhaps in ext/Net-IRC/ ? 19:06
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ludan hola 19:10
DarkWolf84 hi
:)
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shamu is perl 6 documentation discussed on this channel? 19:24
wolverian sure 19:25
shamu where can I post a 2-line patch+
?
avar to what?
shamu to s04.pod
wolverian perl6-language
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wolverian or poke TimToady 19:26
shamu can I just /msg him?
PerlJam shamu: what's the patch?
shamu Index: S04.pod
===================================================================
--- S04.pod (revision 14364)
+++ S04.pod (working copy)
@@ -854,8 +854,8 @@
NEXT {...} at loop continuation time, before any LEAVE
LAST {...} at loop termination time, after any LEAVE
wolverian well, I don't know what method he prefers. posting on perl6-language is safe at least :)
shamu - PRE {...} assert precondition at every block entry, before any
- POST {...} assert postcondition at every block exit, after any
+ PRE {...} assert precondition at every block entry, before any ENTER
+ POST {...} assert postcondition at every block exit, after any LEAVE
CATCH {...} catch exceptions, before LEAVE
CONTROL {...} catch control exceptions, before LEAVE 19:27
perl6-language@ where?
oh ok, newsgroup
PerlJam shamu: [email@hidden.address]
wolverian no, the newsgroup is a mirror
shamu thanks
wolverian not sure if you can reply there.
avar shamu: put it on sial.org/pbot/
shamu btw, I'm not sure my patch is correct
avar then @tell TimToady patch to s04.pod is [url] 19:28
shamu oh ok
avar but ya, mailing list too
shamu @tell avar hello
lambdabot Consider it noted.
PerlJam I wonder what happened to ENTER/LEAVE on those lines ...
avar !
lambdabot avar: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
shamu gotcha, thanks! 19:29
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shamu @tell TimToady bug with S04.pod is sial.org/pbot/23872 19:30
lambdabot Consider it noted.
shamu ok, cool, thanks for the info
it bugs me there's no quick ref card for irc like there is for emacs/gnu calc/vim/etc 19:31
PerlJam shamu: make one! :-)
shamu hands bugging me
moritz shamu: that's probably because there are not nearly as many irc commands as vim etc.
shamu thanks a bunch. I'll paste this info for future reference 19:32
how do I control-z from within ircII? 19:33
er, never mind 19:34
PerlJam shamu: sounds like you need to learn the wonders of screen
shamu I'm familiar with screen 19:35
another
another utility that desperately needs a quickref card
gaal killall -STOP ircII :)
moritz gaal: no, -9 ;-)
gaal shamu: ^A?
== screen cheatsheet
shamu better I just sign off -- no point in being logged in if I'm not talking 19:36
well, that's not as nice a cheatsheet as the one for emacs or vi
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gaal hahaha, this irssi is up since august :) 19:37
shamu heh
gaal i must talk too much
shamu 3 column, doublesided, everything on one page including commands, keystrokes, command-line options
thanks for the @tell info. He already fixed the typo!
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PerlJam TimToady++ (for being awake while not awake :-) 19:49
moritz are there any registered trademarkets for perl or perl6?
DarkWolf84 trade marks? 19:51
moritz like Microsoft[tm] 19:52
DarkWolf84 perl6 is under GPL right?
moritz DarkWolf84: the software, yes
DarkWolf84 in this case I don't know
moritz DarkWolf84: linux is under GPLv2 as well, but Torvalds has the name registered as [tm] 19:53
DarkWolf84 I know this
dduncan GPL is a copyright thing, unrelated to Trademarks
DarkWolf84 I'm getting messed 19:54
moritz dduncan: I know, that's why I'm asking ;)
I want to register a domain with perl6 in it and I don't want to violate a trademark
dduncan my response was to DarkWolf84 ...
and I don't know
moritz dduncan: ok ;)
PerlJam hopes that if anyone trademarks perl/perl6, it's TPF 19:55
wolverian perl is a trademark 19:56
(held by tpf)
[particle] perl is copyrighted.
the onion is trademarked
so is the camel, but by o'reilly
Limbic_Region ?seen audreyt 19:57
lambdabot audreyt is in #haskell-soc, #haskell and #perl6. I last heard audreyt speak 1d 2h 11m 31s ago.
Limbic_Region she doing ok?
wolverian oh. I thought the perl trademark was wider.
thakns.
er, thanks.
moritz I'll read www.perlfoundation.org/legal/trademark.html
lambdabot Title: Perl Trademark Use and Licensing - The Perl Foundation
wolverian the onion is very cute, btw.
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moritz well, the website above does not mention rules of using the name perl 20:00
DarkWolf84 i can't find anythind obout trade mark 20:01
maybe Perl is not a trademark
but I don't know
I'm not sure
wolverian I think it's only when used with the onion logo. 20:03
Tene Limbic_Region: the last thing I saw her say was that some stressful events had occurred, and she needed to disappear for a day or so to recover. 20:04
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forsaken can anyone tell me the apparent status of perl6? is it coming along well? 20:07
i feel like it has been in development forever
Tene It's coming along well. 20:08
moritz forsaken: it has been in development for ~10 years, but now we have a p6 interpreter that can handle a large subset of the language 20:10
pugs
PerlJam 10 years is little too long.
forsaken thats cool
so they're trying to get it working in pugs? then parrot? 20:11
PerlJam more like it's been in-design for about 7 years and in-development for about 3 years.
moritz PerlJam: which sums up to 10 years ;-))
PerlJam moritz: except my 7 and 3 overlap at the end :)
moritz forsaken: the final p6 interpreter will be written in p6, and run on parrot
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moritz forsaken: and pugs will bootstrap p6 20:12
forsaken cool
moritz PerlJam: that's neglectible ;))
PerlJam forsaken: there are 3 (at least) roughly independent perl6 implementations.
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forsaken any idea how long until there's a fully working version/release? 20:12
PerlJam forsaken: haskell, perl 5, and parrot.
forsaken: depends on how you define "fully" :-)
moritz forsaken: christmas - but we don't know which year ;)
DarkWolf84 hehe
forsaken heh, figured as much :) 20:13
DarkWolf84 some sites point this year
PerlJam forsaken: There should be an alpha release of the parrot-based perl6 this year.
moritz and once p6 is released every day will be like christmas ;)
forsaken neat :) 20:14
so hopefully sometime next year we'll have a version that works pretty well
DarkWolf84 btw I can't work with parot yet
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DarkWolf84 and pugcc not work
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PerlJam DarkWolf84: you mean you can't use parrot with pugs? or something else? 20:15
DarkWolf84 for me the rleasing perl will be like chrismass for me too
Limbic_Region Tene - thanks
DarkWolf84 yes
it gives me an error
PerlJam ah, yes. Pugs and parrot haven't kept too much in sync lately, so maybe that's the problem. 20:16
(I haven't really tried using them together since it got all wonky)
DarkWolf84 and I don't find the way to translate perl without pugs
mean perl6 20:17
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DarkWolf84 and pugs compiler backend not work 20:17
fglock DarkWolf84: hmm - translate perl6 to what? 20:18
DarkWolf84 to bytecode or usable program
PerlJam personally, I like playing with parrot/pge/tge more than perl6(pugs) these days
DarkWolf84 btw pugs compil only in memory like perl5 20:19
PerlJam mainly because parrot is "unspecced" enough that I don't expect more from it that it can deliver whereas perl6 is specced enough that I'm disappointed when pugs doesn't live up to the spec.
DarkWolf84 how works this 20:20
Tene PerlJam: the spec always leads the implementation.
jrockway heh, perl5 and cpan got to where they are today thanks to detailed specs
oh wait
moritz jrockway++ *lol* 20:21
DarkWolf84 perl6 is in development right now
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jrockway not saying that specs are bad, i'm just quipping 20:21
DarkWolf84 specs r good 20:22
PerlJam Tene: of course, but what I'm say is that for parrot the spec and implementation are on par (are in a similar state of disarray)
DarkWolf84 but when the perl6 is ready
PerlJam Tene: but pugs/perl6 spec, the spec is quite a bit more organized
Tene nods.
DarkWolf84 i think there wil be cpan6 too
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avar too bad that perl6.pir is so incomplete 20:22
DarkWolf84 it's only a matter of time 20:23
forsaken hows the work on parrot coming? it seems like a neat idea 20:25
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rindolf Hi all. 20:25
Does Alison frequent this channel?
fglock rindolf: try #parrot 20:26
at irc.perl.org
rindolf fglock: OK. 20:27
fglock: hmmpf...
How can people ever prefer irc.perl.org over Freenode? 20:28
But maybe it's just me.
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Tene So, any thoughts on why this: allalone.org/segtest.pl is segfaulting, or should I just try translating URI.pm to p6? 20:31
shamu is there a ubuntu package of the current pugs build? 20:33
something I could install and uninstall cleanly to test with?
moritz shamu: I have debian packages
shamu: which should work on Ubuntu as well
moritz.faui2k3.org/debian/pugs/
lambdabot Title: Index of /debian/pugs 20:34
moritz shamu: pick the latest revision ;)
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shamu cool, thanks. Is it in a state where it automatically packages smoothly using the debian build scripts? 20:35
moritz shamu: well, it could...
shamu: first of all, these are my "private" packages, not official ones...
shamu just curious, really
oh, sure.
moritz shamu: and they build cleanly most of the time, but the build process consumes much CPU and RAM... 20:36
shamu: so I only trigger it when I leave my laptop for half an hour ;)
lichtkind when exactly was XS born?
shamu mortiz: understood
moritz @born XS
lambdabot Maybe you meant: join more
moritz lambdabot: no, I didn't ;) 20:37
gaal @google history of perl xs 20:42
lambdabot lists.tartarus.org/pipermail/xapian...00107.html
Title: [Xapian-discuss] Perl XS bindings, postlist_begin
gaal @google history of perl
lambdabot www.shlomifish.org/lecture/Perl/New...story.html
Title: A brief history of Perl
lichtkind thanks
gaal np 20:43
moritz that's rindolf's page, isn't it?
gaal looks it
allbery_b yes
rindolf moritz: yes, it's mine. 20:44
Heh.
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lichtkind gaal the post are from 2004 20:44
mugwump re: "perl 5 was a complete re-write of the perl interpreter" 20:45
lichtkind i know
my question is if XS was released with perl5
or after
mugwump git.catalyst.net.nz/gitweb2?p=perl....h=perl-5a2 # not quite :) 20:46
lambdabot Title: git.catalyst.net.nz Git - perl.git/commit
jrockway mugwump: are there any plans to ditch p4 in favor of your git archive? it's awesome. 20:47
shamu moritz: thanks again
mugwump why thanks jrockway
I need to iron out the kinks first for sure
jrockway seeing perl 1.0 "19 years ago" in gitweb is pretty darn neat
mugwump but really that's up to the pumpking which tool they use 20:48
moritz stevan_: do the pugs .debs work for you?
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mugwump one guy's maintaining his own fork based on a git conversion 20:48
jrockway the "perl 7" guy?
mugwump yeah
moritz s/stevan_/shamu/ sorry ;) 20:49
lichtkind mugwump: thanks thats what i looked for 20:50
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DarkWolf84 what was that with perl7 21:12
i can't find any info about that 21:13
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jrockway DarkWolf84: read p5p about a month ago 21:16
some guy is mad that perl6 isn't out, so he's forking perl5, removing format(), and calling it perl7 21:17
i think he was talked out of that name though
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jrockway it's like Kurila now or something? 21:17
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Aankhen`` WHOA. I just read the bit about user-defined array indices. :-D 22:02
forsaken link? 22:03
Aankhen`` Uhh, S09, r14359... I got the SVN notice on p6l. 22:04
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dduncan yeah, lots of good stuff in there 22:18
if I understand it right, that deals effectively with the issue of custom indicies 22:19
Aankhen`` Oh, quite a large portion of it went over my head. :-P Whatever I did understand, though, has me drooling. But I seem to say that every time I see a new feature...
dduncan now I just want to know how to declare anonymous multidim values
my impression is that @foo{...} syntax means custom index, while @foo[...] means normal index 22:20
Aankhen`` Indeed it does.
dduncan that difference alone goes a long way to understandability of code in my mind
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dduncan and lets users of the same array have it both ways, while reducing certain complexity 22:21
moritz and my impression is that pugs currently does not implement multi dim arrays
Aankhen`` Well, it would save a lot of trouble... instead of use constant { POS_FOO => 0, POS_BAR => 1, POS_BAZ => 2 }; my @quux = (); $quux[POS_FOO] = ...
You could just have my @quux{ <Foo Bar Baz> } # sorry if I messed up the syntax a bit! 22:22
dduncan anyway, I posted my multidim question to p6l yesterday, but no response there yet
Aankhen`` Yeah, I read the question. The syntax you posted makes sense to me, FWIW.
dduncan though it may be bad in the ; having different meanings, and that example would only work for 2-dimensional structures
for n-dimensional, we need some kind of nesting syntax 22:23
meaning, bracket-like syntax
sort of like perl 5's array-of-array-of... but not exactly the same, since aoa are different things than multidims, afaik 22:24
and perl 6 still has the other aoas
Aankhen`` I'm not sure I understand what multislices are. :-S
dduncan more broadly speaking, I think of multidims sort of like a mapping where the key can have multiple parts, 1 part per dimension ... which is more direcltly what the multidim hash means, afaik 22:25
22:25 silug joined
dduncan in fact, in that respect, it would be loosely the case that a multidim hash could implement an n-ary relation, with one dimension being one "attribute"/"column", and one element being one "tuple"/"row" ... 22:26
moritz thinks this is a cause for multidimensional confusion ;)
dduncan that said, I won't hold my breath for this actually being the best way to implement it 22:27
Aankhen`` moritz: Heh.
dduncan I say more like a multidimensional keyset though, since all parts of the element would be in the key 22:28
anyway, I won't go on about this until I've made my proof of concept relation the old-school way
Aankhen`` Good luck!
22:34 mr_ank joined, Psyche^ is now known as Patterner 22:54 buubot joined 23:00 SubStack joined 23:02 justatheory joined 23:03 justatheory joined 23:18 diotalevi joined, justatheory joined 23:21 justatheory joined 23:32 ozo_ joined 23:39 Jedai joined 23:41 DarkWolf84 joined
Jedai Hello 23:41
DarkWolf84 hi
Jedai I did have a commit bit a long time ago but I lost the computer where I had a record of the pass for it 23:43
Would someone be so kind as to send me one again ?
Limbic_Region Jedai - if I can login, I would be happy to
give me a second to try
Jedai Thanks :) 23:44
Limbic_Region unfortunately, I can't get the page to come up
oh wait,, just extremely slow 23:45
Tene same here
Oh, there it is
Limbic_Region ok, I'm in 23:46
I may need your email address again - let me see if it's there
Jedai [email@hidden.address]
MY old address should redirect anyway 23:47
Limbic_Region well, I still need the project page to come up
this is like 2 minutes a page load (literally)
ok, I finally got to the button to send an invite 23:50
grrr - it says nickname in use
do you know what your nick is supposed to be?
Jedai?
Jedai Jedai I think...
or jedai
23:51 Psyche^ joined
Limbic_Region ok, says created 23:51
so presumably the invite is on the way
let me know if you get the email 23:52
Jedai Ok, I've got it, thanks
Limbic_Region yay
anyone else need anything done while I'm in 23:57
?
Tene Limbic_Region: make a sandwich for me. 23:58
Limbic_Region Tene - my wife and daughter are half way around the world, if you want a sandwich with the groceries in the house you are a brave brave person 23:59
Tene Hehe.

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