pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4]
Set by gaal on 18 June 2007.
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obra I have a question for folks interested in hacking on docs 00:04
anyone around?
moritz
I like to form heavy objects out of printed docs and hack on my screen with them ;) 00:05
obra moritz: ORA's book on perl6 and parrot has just been opensourced. (perl6 and parrot essentials)
we now have the source under Artistic 2
if it got checked into the pugs rep, would folks be interested in modernizing, updating and extending it?
moritz obra: I read that mail, and I replied, but it didn't get through to the list 00:06
obra moritz: allison and I have been having an olff-list tchat
what was the summary of your mail?
moritz 1) sounds good
2) does the TPF already has a license for it? 00:07
obra Artistic 2
moritz 3) I'd suggest the pugs repo instead the "official" perl one, because it's open to more hackers
just sent it again, with a different SMTP this time
obra What I talked allison into is initial commit to tpf repo then branching to the pugs repo 00:08
nothingmuch wiki! 00:09
moritz nothingmuch: no!
Tene wiki--
moritz nothingmuch: I can't use vim in a wiki
nothingmuch don't you wnat pictures of pretty girls in the next edition of the book?
moritz nothingmuch: and it has a much longer dev cycle
nothingmuch and a 404 link chapter?
Tene moritz: you can with proper browser plugins
or with a fuse app for that wiki
moritz Tene: but that's an evil hack
nothingmuch well, there is a possibility for middle ground 00:10
moritz if you want something wiki-like, use a distributed SCM
nothingmuch e.g. ingy's doolitle
which is essentially a wiki frontend to a bunch of perldocs in svn
but i was kidding
Tene moritz: nah, the pugs crowd seems to love SVN
moritz Tene: I wouldn't mind switching to git ;)
Tene likes git. 00:11
nothingmuch darcs 00:12
yay!
nothingmuch stops trolling
moritz I haven't really tried it, but I heard great things about git... and seen examples, and all
today I was in git talk at debconf7
nothingmuch nothingmuch.woobling.org/darcs_osdc...start.html
lambdabot Title: Darcs
nothingmuch wait for the images to load, so s5 kicks in
moritz obra: obviously I'll read parrot+perl6 internals prior to chaniging it ;) 00:15
nothingmuch: what's an advantage of darcs compared to git? 00:16
nothingmuch IMHO darcs is the most user friendly VCS i've seen
and also very powerful
the non linearity of changes is what sold me
obra yeah, when trying to write a book, that's not so hot ;)
nothingmuch tangetntial 00:17
if you change chapter a and then chapter b, and then change your mind about changing chapter a, darcs makes that trivial
moritz "n Darcs every working directory is a full repository" - that's an advantage over git
obra svk has that mode too, moritz. and works with svn ;)
anyway
I don't see pugs switching version control systems this week 00:18
nothingmuch you're just pimping your buddies code ;-)
obra hence it makes sense to check it into svn and go from there
nothingmuch: mine, actually
nothingmuch for the record i'm not trying to get pugs on svn, just saying why i like darcs since someone mentioned git =)
and don't worry, i'm a happy svk user, too
moritz obra: I know, but git performs a bit better than svk for large repos ;)
nothingmuch that's where darcs loses 00:19
moritz I don't try either ;)
obra let's not have this discussion here
it's not perl6 ;)
moritz obra: that never stopped us from any discussion here ;) 00:20
obra :P
moritz nothingmuch: nice slides ;) 00:22
nothingmuch wonders why his comp is so slow
everthing is happenning at a 1 sec delay
thoughtpolice nothingmuch: I agree on the note that darcs is really 'easy' 00:23
pretty much all of the concepts in darcs are about as straightforward as I've seen, and a lot of them are really useful (cherry picking is one of the best)
git is pretty much as good as you'll get for a fast system though; mercurial is pretty quick as well. i haven't tried it, but in pushes and pulls from repo's with very large amounts of patches, some actions can take inordinate amounts of time. 00:25
which is kind of a downer for darcs
moritz which is an advantage for us 00:26
because it means hacking GHC is less fun for audreyt as it could be 00:27
=> more time for pugs ;)
thoughtpolice haha
well the ghc guys apparently don't like some of the issues. :/ but the new ideas taking place in darcs for the SoC should help out a *lot* 00:28
i assume that'll be something like darcs 1.1
since we have 1.0.9 now. :)
nothingmuch that's a little problematic 00:29
because it's been in the queue too long
personally i've never seen the issues with my own two eyes
but occasionally people bring them up
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nothingmuch is very happy with darcs for all of his non work, non catalyst modules 00:29
thoughtpolice i'm pretty happy with it too
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thoughtpolice but then again the ghc guys are probably playing in a pretty different ballpark than you or I are. i can imagine problems like that cropping up in a 100kloc app with thousands upon thousands [upon thousands] of patches 00:30
for most people though a lot of the actual pointed out issues with darcs aren't really that much of a problem. a lot of them seem to manifest more in much larger projects. 00:31
nothingmuch yep
moritz has an active project that's on revision 7, and at least half a year old
thoughtpolice nice. :)
nothingmuch nothingmuch.woobling.org/darcs_dep.pdf
that's probably as big as i've gotten
moritz since I'm the only developer, there's no need for early commits ;)
thoughtpolice i'll openly admit that probably none of my projects have had that many. :) 00:33
most of my code is mainly just little stuff I write in my spare time; repo's that use maybe ~20 or so patches.
i love darcs though. mercurial is looking really nice however, so I'm going to have to try it out more extensively sometime in the future. 00:34
and I've normally found the best way to learn something is to use it; I'll have to find some kind of project to hack on. :)
moritz thoughtpolice: pugs ;) 00:35
thoughtpolice: did you apply for a microgrant? 00:36
thoughtpolice no. right now I'm trying to clear up some other loose ended projects I have
namely ones that have taken inordinate amount of time which I'm not very happy about. a few I can lay off since they're a bit more personal, but there're a couple that've been really nagging on my brain recently that I need to take care of 00:37
but the recommendation for a microgrant has been on my mind over the past few days. :)
mainly there're about 2 projects I need to work more on. once those are done a microgrant is high up there as something to shoot for. :) 00:38
the funny thing is both of these things are websites. what're they both waiting on? designs. *sigh* 00:39
moritz thoughtpolice: for designs I just go to oswd.org most of the time ;)
thoughtpolice: take a good looking design, and modify it to my needs
thoughtpolice although I think I found a nice web framework that I could use
web.py
moritz: thanks. :)
moritz: one of those is probably good for my blog. the other one is a more domain-specific site, so I have a designer working on it specifically right now (at least, I think...) 00:41
moritz ok
and I wrote my own little offline CMS in perl ;)
thoughtpolice ah, fun stuff. :) 00:42
moritz it basically handles inclues, variable substitutions and a special menu system for nested menus
and it can syntax hilight through Text::VimColor
which means it can even hilight perl 6 code decently! ;-) 00:43
thoughtpolice awesome
:)
moritz that wasn't really hard to implement, but a killer feature for perl-6.de/ 00:44
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 - Schmerzloses Programmieren
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nothingmuch night folks 00:52
thoughtpolice later 00:53
nothingmuch obra: so there ;-)
and happy birthday, btw
obra thanks :) 00:54
moritz happy birthday! 01:12
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svnbot6 r16683 | obra++ | * placeholder for perl6 essentials 01:38
obra moritz: thanks
as a birthday present to/from me, I've checked the book in to pugs svn 01:39
svnbot6 r16684 | obra++ | * Perl 6 [and Parrot] Essentials source opensourced by O'Reilly Media 01:41
r16684 | obra++ | allison++ # Got ORM to donate the code to TPF and got TPF to Artistic License it
r16684 | obra++ | - Cloned from the TPF svn.perl.org/perl6/doc repository
lambdabot Title: Revision 14424: /doc
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gaal happy birthday, obra # and yay for just checking it in, and yay for having the book! 03:47
also, yay for nothingmuch for producing the quintessential nothingmuch quote to date 03:49
03:22 < nothingmuch> IMHO darcs is the most user friendly VCS i've seen
< nothingmuch> IMHO darcs is the most user friendly VCS i've seen
< nothingmuch> the non linearity of changes is what sold me
Ooops, sorry for repetition
nothingmuch making fun of me is not nice 03:51
my english eh not so good
offby1 nothingmuch: your English is better than my 1) Spanish 2) French 3) Mandarin 4) German ... 03:53
nothingmuch that doesn't matter, all that matters is that gaal is a mean poo poo head 03:54
sleepy time
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gaal it was more about the "oh look how simple my commutation with inverse property is!" 03:54
sleep tight, no'. 03:55
Aankhen`` mooses in a friendly manner towards gaal. 03:56
gaal hey!
Aankhen`` What's new?
offby1 moosing in public. Kids these days 03:58
Aankhen`` Go back to yer cave, grandpa.
gaal I'm yearning for some magic audreyt touch to animate a patch that can speed up Pugs several times 03:59
offby1 mumbles incoherently about insurance
Aankhen`` gaal: Oooh.
Aankhen`` laughs at offby1.
gaal also, I'm up early, which means I had better take advantage to the pleasant temperatures out and go rowing
lambdabot! don't go!
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gaal wp 04:00
*wb
ok, i'd better vamoose, myself :)
Aankhen`` Aww. 04:02
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weirdo heya 05:21
are strings, arrays et al subclasses of a common type
?
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svnbot6 r16685 | Darren_Duncan++ | ext/Muldis-DB/ : further license clarification 05:42
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dduncan weirdo, yes 05:52
gaal weirdo: look for "buffer" in L<S09/"Compact arrays">
you can coerce a string into a buf 05:53
shower &
dduncan all types are subtypes of Object
weirdo thanks
but can't i map{} over a string?
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dduncan more specifically, they all subtype Any 05:53
in what way do you want to map over a string? 05:54
what is a string element in this case?
weirdo besides, can i print the type graph in pugs?
dduncan I don't know about the latter 05:55
gaal weirdo: $obj.perl or $obj.yaml give you textual representations
dduncan if not now, you probably should be able to soon
weirdo i was thinking in terms of, all array types (buf, @ary, string etc) working with iterators
gaal oh, you meant the type graph, not an instance of the type Graph :) 05:56
dduncan a Str is abstract as per what its components are
so to do a map{}, you need to specify what level of abstraction you want to work in terms of
eg, graphs vs codes vs bytes
or vs words et al 05:57
such as <...> does
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weirdo i'm thinking of a string as of an array with each element having the same predefined type 05:58
dduncan which is what?
weirdo depends whether it's multibyte 05:59
dduncan so you're thinking of a string as being a compact array of something or other?
weirdo yes 06:00
dduncan what is the context
in Perl, a Str is specifically characters, which is an abstract notion
whereas a Blob is a string of bits
and a buffer is a mutable version of either 06:01
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dduncan in Perl 6, you may simply want to use an array of int or something 06:01
lower-case int means compact storage
as it is machine native int 06:02
or substitute int for some other lower-case named types
or the best answer for you depends on what you actually want to achieve
Perl 6 isn't exactly the same as any other language, though has close analogies
eg, the C way of doing things may not be directly applicable here 06:03
weirdo i was thinking in terms of common lisp's type system
dduncan some fundamental concepts differ
a Str in perl is fundamentally a scalar, not a collection
weirdo there are sequences, vectors (compact or not), lists and arrays (multidimensional or vectors)
dduncan map{} only makes sense over collections
weirdo thanks. that makes sense 06:04
dduncan you can derive a collection from a scalar, but a scalar is not a collection itself
eg, using split() on a Str can give you a collection
or various other functions 06:05
depending on how you want it broken up
weirdo are there any specifications on macros so far?
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dduncan see Synopsis 6 I think 06:05
do you know a url for that?
if not, see dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html
lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
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weirdo thanks :) 06:06
Aankhen`` (spec.pugscode.org)++
dduncan in Synopsis 6, scroll about 80% of the way down for most Macros stuff 06:07
note: it would probably be useful for the htmlized Synopsis docs to have generated tables of contents like search.cpan.org does for most pod 06:08
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dduncan so we don't have to scroll to each section 06:08
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wolverian dduncan, spec.pugscode.org does that. 06:09
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weirdo wow. 'leave' works like RETURN-FROM 06:11
it can return a value, too
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weirdo there's something unclear about macros. 'is parsed' implies that macro params are a string. can i get macro params as a syntax tree? 06:14
gaal look for 'quoting' and 'quasiquoting 06:15
'
weirdo can i use quasiquoting for getting an AST or only for returning it? 06:18
i was thinking of getting a block passed as a param to macro and seeing its expressions as an array 06:19
gaal should be possible 06:20
weirdo please, show me. most i could do is pugs> macro foo ($foo is CODE) { warn $foo; undef } 06:24
pugs> foo { 1 + 2; 3 + 4 } 06:25
*** <SubBlock(<anon>)> at <interactive> line 1, column 28-37
undef
oops. sorry for the flooding
i can't delve into the sub and mess with its expressions
bsb weirdo: I don't think pugs has all the quasiquoting and macro stuff implemented yet 06:26
gaal yay, my telepathic summoning of someone who actually knows this stuff worked! bsb, how are you? :-) 06:28
dduncan wolverian, thanks for that link ... I was using the other one since I bookmarked it a couple years ago ... replaced it with bookmark for new 06:39
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bsb hey gaal, I'm good, but you'd know that with your telepathy 06:52
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Aankhen`` dduncan: Pfft, who uses bookmarks any more? ;-) 07:02
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Aankhen`` Hmm. Anyone who has a high-level understanding of Pugs feel able to tell me how Pugs parses Perl 6? :-) 07:13
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dduncan Aankhen, better than anything else 07:14
so far
Aankhen`` Well, yes, I knew that already. :-P
I was wondering how.
dduncan 'how' looked like 'how well'
Aankhen`` (I'm trying to read the source, but I barely understand Haskell, soā€¦) 07:15
Ah, no sweat.
dduncan well, good luck with that
Aankhen`` Thanks, I need it.
dduncan and I'm off
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jql magic 07:17
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Aankhen`` Heh. 07:22
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Aankhen`` It suddenly struck me as amusing that a language like Perl 6 should be implemented on top of a purely functional language like Haskell. 07:25
Tene Aankhen``: howso, exactly? 07:26
jql well, Parsec is a damn impressive library
Aankhen`` Well, Perl always seems to embrace side-effects, whereas Haskell eschews them entirely (leaving aside monads, needless to say). 07:27
Just funny to see the Perl approach built on top of the Haskell approach, I guess.
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Aankhen`` Now what would be really interesting would be to see a Haskell interpreter in Perl 6, running in Pugs, for circularity fun. <G> 07:29
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gaal Aankhen``: not new, but maybe this can help: perlcabal.org/~gaal/peek/ 10:03
lambdabot Title:
gaal append start.html to that url
moritz obra: did you check in the parts of the book into the parrot repository? 10:15
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svnbot6 r16686 | fglock++ | [kp6] added /v6/docs/kp6-overview.jpg 11:59
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spinclad fglock: RFReview text looks good here 12:25
fglock spinclad: cool - I just sent it to the list
lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
moritz fglock: you should export images from vector graphics as .png, not .jpg - the text will be more readable, and the edges don't fuzzy out 12:33
fglock: although the current images are very readable ;)
fglock moritz: I'll do that next time
moritz good
obra moritz: allison is doing the parrot parts of the book 12:45
moritz obra: ok
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fglock oops - my macbook screen is flickering and there seems to be no solution for that www.appledefects.com/?p=179 14:33
lambdabot Title: AppleDefects.com ōæ½xBB Inexplicable MacBook Screen Flicker - Customer Complaints & I ...
offby1 is that worse than the $5,000 Leica camera that distorted colors so badly that people just desaturated their images to black and white? 14:34
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moritz no, I guess your macbook was cheaper ;) 14:34
fglock people are saying that apple can't fix that :( 14:36
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rindolf Happy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Boat_Festival all. 15:08
lambdabot Title: Duanwu Festival - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Aankhen`` gaal: Gracias, I'll give it a peek. ;-) 15:21
thoughtpolice yawns 15:22
Aankhen`` Morning.
thoughtpolice mornin'
Aankhen`` Shouldn't you be asleep?
thoughtpolice it's like 10:30am here
Aankhen`` Hmm, your clock seems to be off
.
[thoughtpolice TIME reply]: Thu Jul 19 04:39:54 2007
thoughtpolice most likely is
Aankhen`` Bleh, it's 8:21 AM here. I ought to have been in bed for another six hours. 15:23
(Woke up at 7:15.)
thoughtpolice hm yeah my clock's are off. i should probably really get around to syncing with an ntp server one of these days
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thoughtpolice better. :) 15:28
Aankhen`` Yey, I feel better now. 15:32
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leo_ audreyt: ping 15:35
audreyt: please contact me ASAP re flight 15:38
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gaal Aankhen``: moose if you have any questions 15:47
rindolf Thanks to Allison for opening the parts of "Perl 6 Essentials" 15:49
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thoughtpolice also, the last part of the topic could be "(reverse . show . last) $ zipWith (*) [1..6] [-1..]" 16:06
:)
although admittingly it could go much farther but hey, you only have one line
of course in most imperative languages you could just write that as "42" I guess since you can't play with infinte lists, but, uh... yeah. 16:09
TimToady 42 is an infinite list, it's just most of the digits are off to the left and invisible... 16:11
thoughtpolice indubitably 16:12
offby1 Aankhen``: whiner. My cat got me up at 5:00 am :-| 16:14
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rindolf TimToady: heh. 17:54
TimToady heh?
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rindolf <TimToady> 42 is an infinite list, it's just most of the digits are off to the left and invisible... 17:58
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Aankhen`` offby1: I'm glad. GLAD, I SAY. 18:26
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ibrown interesting. so from what i read, pug is just a new interpreter to parse the v6 syntax? and that interpreter can interpret v5 syntax as well or am i incorrect? 20:45
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fglock ibrown: that's correct, from the user point of view 20:47
TimToady_ however, the p5 code is just handed off to an embedded p5 interpreter 20:48
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fglock looks for dewarnocking tips 20:56
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ibrown this is gaining more and more interest. So what's kinda the crux of the workload like right now? 21:00
fglock ibrown: currently, pugs object system is under refactoring; and other Perl 6 implementations are also under way 21:04
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ibrown fglock: well i def. subscribed to the list, and got parrot/pugs working. i'm all about trying to start doing non-production dev on p6 heh. 21:08
[particle] fglock: all 01-sanity tests are now passing for parrot/perl6 21:09
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fglock_ [particle]: nice :) 21:19
dduncan yay-eth 21:22
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offby1 yay-us 21:29
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svnbot6 r16687 | lwall++ | [ch04] begin to extirpate references to references 22:33
Limbic_Region TimToady - when is your Iceland conference?
moritz TimToady_: ch04 has a lot of parentheses around arrays... should I remove some of them? 22:35
TimToady_ Limbic_Region: July 16-20
I've removed some of them already
moritz TimToady_: ok
TimToady_ but if you want to whack on it some more, feel free 22:36
I'm about done with ch04 for the day
not sure what to do about the earlier history-in-progress chapters 22:37
moritz I won't do more today either
perhaps tomorrow
TimToady_ when it says "so-and-so is currently doing this" and they aren't anymore, it seems odd...
so I think the history parts have to be put into past tense 22:38
but I don't think I'm the right person to do that
moritz and ?? :: is ?? !! now, right? 22:39
TimToady_ yes
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svnbot6 r16688 | moritz++ | [ch04] updated ternary operator 22:41
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svnbot6 r16689 | moritz++ | [ch04] updated the zip operator 22:47
moritz ok, that was a lie later ;)
TimToady I just updated svn props, so you may get a conflict 22:48
svnbot6 r16690 | lwall++ | Add svn props to tutorial
TimToady suggest you svn up 22:49
moritz no conflict
;)
TimToady before any additional lying :)
svnbot6 r16691 | moritz++ | [ch04] print on $_ now requires a leading dot 22:51
moritz and named parameters are :$foo, not +$foo any more, right? 22:52
thoughtpolice yes, named parameters are : rather than +
i see we have o'reilly's book in the repo now? :) i use it for a reference when I need to when I write stuff on diveintoperl6. 22:53
moritz thoughtpolice: yes, read p6l ;-)
thoughtpolice: www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....27767.html
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 & Parrot Essentials as project documentation - nntp.perl.org, tinyurl.com/ynvlty 22:54
thoughtpolice nice stuff. :)
the book is a good reference.
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pasteling "MaxDeMon" at 210.2.158.63 pasted "Haii" (1 line, 21B) at sial.org/pbot/25668 22:59
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svnbot6 r16692 | moritz++ | [ch05] ':' instead of '?' for named parameters, (PARAMS --> RETURN_TYPE) 23:01
moritz doesn't like the examples in ch06 - "Arthur" is soemthing that I'd use as an object, not as a class 23:03
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moritz is there a shorter word than 'exclamation mark' for '!'? 23:09
riffraff "bang" 23:10
moritz is that suitable for a book? *g*
TimToady nothing else sufficiently formal
riffraff I think I read some where the explained #! as shebang so, maybe yes :)
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bsb there's a band called "!!!", pronounced "chk chk chk"... 23:12
"shchk line", hmm, maybe not
japhb [particle]: congratulations! # parrot/perl6 passing all of 01-sanity
moritz I'll stick to "exclamation mark" for now ;)
svnbot6 r16693 | moritz++ | [ch06] private methods and attributes now use '!' instead of ':' 23:13
japhb And thanks to ORM for releasing the book. Good on them ....
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thoughtpolice i wonder what this says about the rails guys: dev.rubyonrails.org/ticket/8681 23:16
lambdabot Title: #8681 (Removed &#34;cocksucker&#34; from unit tests) - Rails Trac - Trac
Aankhen`` O_O 23:17
riffraff lol
thoughtpolice well, lambdabot summed it up pretty nicely I guess
japhb Don't like Deadwood?
thoughtpolice deadwood's a good show.
moritz ch07 will need some good portions of rewriting I guess
japhb Agreed! One of my favorites. I meant, that's what it says about the Ruby guy who made the change. :-) 23:18
thoughtpolice :)
japhb You'd be hard pressed to enjoy Deadwood and have sensitive ears. :-)
thoughtpolice i dunno. either that or for some -- crazy -- reason 'cocksucker' was not a critical part of the unit tests. 23:19
japhb That show is the only time I've ever heard "San Francisco cocksucker!" and *knew* it had absolutely nothing to do with sex. 23:21
moritz time for some serious sleeping for me ;-) 23:22
japhb Have a good rest
moritz have fun discussing cocksuckers in the mean time ;)
japhb heh
moritz japhb: thanks ;)
thoughtpolice moritz: peace out. :)
japhb chuckles
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ibrown i'm pretty mad impressed. but i guess, there's one question the webpages haven't really answered as of yet. what are contribs being asked to do to contrib? 23:36
TimToady just find a spot to grab onto the breadcrumb and push it toward the nest. 23:44
Aankhen`` gaal: That presentation was great. ^_^
ibrown I guess the reason I ask is, i use perl every day for system administration tasks. i'll gladly switch to perl6 and start making comments via: irc: mailing lists instead of using perl5.8 heh. or if that's unadvisable, i guess i just don't really get a good concept of where you're at from the documentation on the websites.
been reading up on it for about 3-5hrs now
i use perl5.8 on both win32 and unix platforms 23:45
i <3 perl on win32 systems for tasks.
TimToady a lot of the documentation is about where we want to be at, and we don't go out of our way to mark which things are implemented yet, alas. 23:46
so it's mostly still trial-and-terror at this point
[particle] we do mark things that have been tested
TimToady well, yes, that helps
[particle] spec.pugscode.org 23:47
TimToady but only if they've been smartlinked
[particle] i expect that much more of the test suite will be smartlinked after conference season
TimToady hope so
23:48 diakopter_afk is now known as diakopter
TimToady it's definitely a place people can help out 23:48
[particle] indeed
ibrown smartlinked? 23:49
you mean within the pod? <a> kinda
japhb ibrown: Tests can mark what part of the spec they apply to 23:50
So you can look at the spec and know what it tested
er s/it/is/ 23:51
[particle] rakudo.org/perl6/index.cgi?smart_linking
lambdabot Title: Smart Linking / Perl 6
ibrown 2secs reading
japhb ibrown: see for example feather.perl6.nl/syn/S03.html#Autoi...precedence 23:55
lambdabot Title: S03
japhb (picked at random, but you'll see what we mean) 23:56
ibrown: Cool and new since the last time I looked at it is that the tests actually have pass/fail info for pugs included! 23:58
(check or x mark)
I guess the x'es qualify as NIY marks ... it would be nice to have two columns, one for pugs smoke and one for parrot/perl6 smoke. Though I don't know if the parrot/perl6 people are quite ready for that yet. 23:59

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