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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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Homer_Simpson can I treat '+' (i.e a string) as an operator 00:34
I have my $operand = '+';
I coudl like to use $operand to add two numbers
in my function addnums 00:35
[Coke] the cheat-iest way to do this is with EVAL.
lizmat m: my $a = "+"; my &op = ::("&infix:<$a>"); say op(42,666) 00:38
camelia 708
Homer_Simpson @lizmat can I use that to make user defined literals 00:52
so if I do say 2 it prints 2, but if I make a user define literal called L which is "*= 20" and do say (2L) it would print 40 00:53
i tried but I got a weird error saying 'confused; 00:54
Nemokosch can you show the code? 00:58
ngl I'm a bit worried that you basically want to add C macros into Raku
rf Can I return from a catch? For example 01:09
m: say { return 'abc'.IO.slurp; CATCH { return 'abc'; } }; 01:10
camelia -> ;; $_? is raw = OUTER::<$_> { #`(Block|6187875189600) ... }
rf m: say { return 'abc'.IO.slurp; CATCH { return 'abc'; } }();
camelia Attempt to return outside of any Routine
in block at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
rf You get what I mean oops lol
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melezhik . 01:10
tellable6 2023-01-27T23:27:10Z #raku <rf> melezhik It only seems to support G++, so that is fine. I am using latest Rakudo.
rf I want to catch then return in that catch
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melezhik rf the same issue with g++ - ci.sparrowhub.io/report/2792 01:11
rf Can you install locally with zef? 01:12
I'm hoping this package doesn't only work on my machine
melezhik I will try to install later on VM, not on docker and let you know 01:15
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Homer_Simpson my $l = "*= 20"; 01:17
my &L = ::("&postfix:<$l>");
say 2L;
@Nemokosch 01:18
Nemokosch rf: pretty sure you can - however, you cannot return from a block 01:19
Homer_Simpson: yeah, that's not an operator... 01:20
with RakuAST, one might be able to write such macros, though
rf You could always use QAST and write a slang I think 01:22
Nemokosch yes but hopefully that won't be needed quite soon 🙂 01:23
Homer_Simpson does rakuAST make raku into assembler 01:52
since QAST makes raku into bytecode
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ugexe no 02:27
:(**@args, *%kwargs) what does it mean by Cannot dump this object; no dump method 02:28
im trying to conpile to mbc
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ugexe compile what to mbc? 02:32
github.com/Raku/nqp/blob/bbe28e24d...r.nqp#L316
its coming from one of the 4 instances of 'dumper' in there, whatever that means 02:33
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gatito ugexe: i mean like 'raku --target=mbc hello.raku' 02:33
ugexe does it do that for any code?
gatito it gives `Cannot dump this object; no dump method`
ugexe yes it seems it does 02:34
gatito what is the solution 02:35
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ugexe dunno. someone with a bunch of raku version should probably try to figure out what release it stopped working in 02:36
i tried on 2022.07 and it didnt work
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gatito this is 2022.12 02:37
i mean mine
ugexe well figure out when in rakudo it broke, look at the changelog to try and figure out what exactly broke it, then fix it in rakudo, wait for the next release, and use that 02:39
it doesn't have to be you, but thats the only way to get it to work for anyone
gatito hmm... 02:45
ugexe ah nevermind 02:48
you need to pass --output=somefile.mbc 02:49
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gatito thx 02:51
why are mbc and qast dumps so bloated? i can't find the actual code logic, its buried in loads of boilerplate 02:54
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Xliff \o 03:57
m: role A { method b { }; }; class B does A { has $.c; method d { self.^lookup("b"). ).package.^attributes.gist.say }; }; A.d 03:58
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unsupported use of . to concatenate strings. In Raku please use: ~.
at <tmp>:1
------> has $.c; method d { self.^lookup("b"). ⏏).package.^attributes.gist.say }; }; A.d
Xliff m: role A { method b { }; }; class B does A { has $.c; method d { self.^lookup("b").package.^attributes.gist.say }; }; A.d
camelia No such method 'd' for invocant of type 'A'. Did you mean 'b'?
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: role A { method b { }; }; class B does A { has $.c; method d { self.^lookup("b").package.^attributes.gist.say }; }; B.d 03:59
camelia ()
Xliff Is there a way to get method d() to pull out the attributes in B?
Correction. 04:00
I need to pull the attributes from B via a lookup on method b()
But instead of getting the composed class, I get the role.
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Nemokosch Re why are QAST and mbc so bloated 09:29
Because they are much like the assembly of the runtime
Xliff: why do you need that? What does the "lookup on method b" contribute to the solution? 09:40
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NemokoschKiwi .seen patrickb 10:52
tellable6 NemokoschKiwi, I saw patrickb 2023-01-21T15:59:45Z in #raku-dev: <patrickb> I'm off for today. Have a nice weekend everyone! o/
NemokoschKiwi patrickb: can I get a little help with rakubrew development if you're available 🥺 10:53
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Nemokosch aaargh how do I even run this for myself 11:29
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Geth App-Rakubrew: 2colours++ created pull request #70:
Implementing version toggling with `rakubrew switch`		 12:05
Nemokosch seems like I survived after all
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:(**@rest, *%rest) still python bytecode is much more compact than this prbly because mbc is much lower level or raku just has a lot more work to do than python 13:34
Nemokosch could be both at the same time 13:35
I've never seen Python bytecode so I wouldn't know 13:36
but I do know that QAST already contains scoping considerations
I'd guess mbc is completely dealing with that kind of stuff, symbol lookup and all 13:37
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:(**@rest, *%rest) glot.io/snippets/ghpgg5fha2 13:38
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literally just 4 instructions 13:39
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Nemokosch woah this seems MUCH higher level xD 13:42
but then this seems to act on statements, not a complete program 13:43
:(**@rest, *%rest) it work that way with a complete module too glot.io/snippets/ghpgojmxdk 13:47
Nemokosch this is still more like just a sequence of statements though... but ultimately, the big thing is that it just announces things like "look up this name" xD 13:50
like... by what rules?
patrickb NemokoschKiki: Is there still help needed?
Nemokosch what will that name even contain?
patrickb: the help changed a bit... github.com/Raku/App-Rakubrew/pull/70 please check out this pull request 🙂 13:51
patrickb :-P I'll have a look. 13:52
:(**@rest, *%rest) - LOAD_NAME and LOAD_GLOBAL lookup the name from the global (module-level) namespace. the global namespace is a dictionary, so LOAD_NAME is just dict lookup - LOAD_FAST is fast because its an array lookup 13:55
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Nemokosch dict lookup - but where do you get a dict from? 14:00
is Python written in Python?
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:(**@rest, *%rest) PyDictObject from the C backend ig 14:01
which basically means python dict 14:02
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Nemokosch seems kinda magic 14:29
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rf_ Morning folks 14:33
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:(**@rest, *%rest) the PyDictObject is already available in cpython backend prior to runtime it can just instantiate it and use as the namespace or it can be statically allocated (most likely the case) 14:35
rf_: good morning
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Nemokosch so does CPython have no precompilation 14:36
:(**@rest, *%rest) it is precompiled in .pyc files 14:38
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Nemokosch and what do those contain 14:43
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raschip . 14:49
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rf_ I believe Cython is just python with access to .so 14:54
:(**@rest, *%rest) marshalled code object 15:00
patrickb Nemokosch: I pondered the PR a bit and left a comment. Feedback welcome!
tellable6 patrickb, I'll pass your message to Nemokosch
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rf_ github.com/rawleyfowler/Humming-Bird/pull/31 15:06
Working on adding error handlers and route advice to Humming-Bird, if anyone wants to look at that PR would be appreciated :) 15:07
Leave comments on PR I am a little slow on IRC
Nemokosch patrickb: to be honest, I don't feel I'd have much constructive thoughts 15:08
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:(**@rest, *%rest) and code objects are probably underlyingly just c structs 15:09
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rf How prepared is Raku for y2k38? 17:41
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raschip I don't think there's even 32 bit builds for Rakudo... 17:43
rf I know a lot of perl packages are marked as having issues
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Voldenet m: DateTime.new("2040-01-01T01:01:01Z").posix.say 17:46
camelia 2208992461
Voldenet I do wonder if there's something not prepared for y2k38 17:49
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raschip m: DateTime.new(2208992461).say 17:51
camelia 2040-01-01T01:01:01Z
rf nice 17:52
Raku wins again :D 17:53
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Voldenet m: DateTime.new(DateTime.new("9007199254740992-01-01T01:01:01Z").posix).say 17:56
camelia -194090211667-09-06T21:31:57Z
raschip Well, it does wins unless one needs 32 bit support. I found a 32 bit system still running in the basement the other day. 17:58
rf You can have 64 bit values on a 32 bit machine
Whether raku does what it needs to do this not sure 17:59
raschip Sure, but one can't have Raku on a 32 bit machine as far as I can tell...
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Voldenet m: DateTime.new(DateTime.new(2 ** 38 ~ "-01-01T01:01:01Z").posix).say 18:02
camelia +274877906944-01-01T01:01:01Z
Voldenet m: DateTime.new(DateTime.new(2 ** 39 ~ "-01-01T01:01:01Z").posix).say 18:03
camelia -34798235366-02-22T18:00:45Z
Voldenet you'd need to refactor your software in 274877904922 years
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Homer_Simpson is this legal: my $format = ("%d" , "%1.1f" , "%d" , "%s"); my $data = ( 9 , 8.2 , 7 , "hi"); loop (my $i = 0 ; $i <= 3 ; $i++) { printf("$format[$i]\n", $data[$i]); } 18:30
raschip m: my $format = ("%d" , "%1.1f" , "%d" , "%s"); my $data   = ( 9   ,  8.2    ,  7   , "hi"); loop (my $i = 0 ; $i <= 3 ; $i++) { printf("$format[$i]\n", $data[$i]); }
camelia 9
8.2
7
hi
Homer_Simpson it works yes but I was just wondering if its a "thing" that people do 18:31
raschip Yes, it is an 'idiom' 18:32
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Nahita why are you using a C-style loop though 18:41
you can zip instead
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m: my @formats = ("%d", "%1.1f", "%d", "%s"); my @data = ( 9, 8.2, 7, "hi"); for @formats Z @data -> ($f, $d) { printf "$f\n", $d } 18:41
p6steve using @ and Arrays for multiple things helps to avoid some surprises 18:43
Nahita so i don't think that loop-based way of doing is an idiom 18:44
p6steve ++ Z in the 18:45
Homer_Simpson I like fairly self explanatory code
p6steve example 18:46
Homer_Simpson is Z a constant?
raschip That's the opposite of self-explanatory, it's almost all about the HOW, not the WHAT
Homer_Simpson or an operator?
raschip Z is a meta-operator
Homer_Simpson the how is just as important 18:47
computers are not magic
raschip Right, but communicating to other programmers is even more important. Of course the computer needs to figure out the code at the end of the day, but only write explicit instructions if you need to. 18:48
Well, that's the Raku way, anyway. 18:49
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Nemokosch Yes, I mean... not to chase anybody away but you do seem to have misconceptions about what Raku is for. 18:50
If you essentially want C, write C code, or chose from the gazillion of "C killer" languages.
p6steve welll - loop is in raku for a reason 18:51
Nemokosch more like - loop is called loop rather than for, for a reason
Homer_Simpson im happy using raku like C
but also not like C
Nemokosch this itself was an expression of "only use this if you need to but most of the time you shouldn't need to"
this itself was an expression of "only use this if you need to but most of the time you shouldn't need to" 18:52
p6steve if there were (say) 17 arrays that all needed indexing in step (or i,j,k type multi dimensions) then why not
raku does have c heritage
I think that using loop to index a single array would certainly be unidioamtic
Nemokosch I don't really get the supposed task but I'm pretty sure there will be a better and simpler way
p6steve but HS example with 2 arrays, I think that gentlefolk can differ 18:53
Homer_Simpson I use raku like a "C but with a string type, smarter printf/scanf functions and some more nice features 18:54
dynamic typing
though you can also do static typing
it makes what I find hard in c easier
Nemokosch "C with a string type" and then you complained that strings work like strings, not array of bytes 😆 18:55
p6steve personally I like that Pairs and Zip (Z) can be used to make handling two arrays or a hash as concise as a single array with a for loop
Homer_Simpson yes sometimes
sometimes I want a string type, sometimes I want an array of chars
I hate using malloc in C 18:56
so I just use a string type
is it possible to have a fixed size anonymous list?
Nemokosch if by array of chars, you actually mean array of bytes, there is something like that as well: blob8 (and the writeable buf8)
Homer_Simpson (0,2,3,60)[4]; 18:57
raschip Homer_Simpson You're of course free to use Raku in the way that suits you, but the language has a style behind it, and you just asked how people used it, so it was interesting to tell you your code isn't idiomatic overall.
p6steve m: (0,2,3,60)[4].say;
Nemokosch there is also utf8 which is a kind of blob8 with special considerations for UTF8 usage
Homer_Simpson I tried buf but ..
p6steve m: 0,2,3,60.say; 18:58
Nemokosch I think a "fixed size anonymous list" would need to use the right constructor 18:59
Homer_Simpson m: my $lst = (0,2,4,7)[4]; say($lst[0]); say($lst[4]); 19:01
camelia (Any)
(Any)
Nemokosch > Array.new(:shape(10,), [Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any, Any])
this is what my @asd[10]; creates for you under the hood
p6steve nemokosch++
(another good reason to reach for @sigil and Arrays, not lists. 19:02
)
Nemokosch tbh I'm really not sure whether plain Lists support shapes - the way they don't support typing 19:03
p6steve m: dd my@[3];
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raschip m: dd my@[3]; 19:04
camelia Array.new(:shape(3,), [Any, Any, Any])
Nemokosch I think Array.new(:shape(3,)) is enough, it's just .raku is not smart enough to know the literal is redundant in the constructor
p6steve m: say List.new(:shape(3,)) 19:05
raschip p6steve, Camelia in IRC isn't executing code you post with m:, it's not recognizing messages comming from the discord gate since it includes your nick and Homer_Simpson isn't seeing the output.
p6steve raschip: thanks (I see my own output fine - thus the confusion) 19:06
raschip Yeah, I think discord has it's own Camelia
m: say List.new(:shape(3,))
camelia ()
p6steve docs.raku.org/type/Array says that shape is a method provided by Array 19:07
imo, the type graph is quite interesting docs.raku.org/type/Array#Type_Graph 19:08
since everything in raku is an object
this is why I recommend to use Array (and @) because that is the most evolved form of Positional type 19:09
Nemokosch yes, tbh it's less that "Array is a mutable List", although that's also true 19:17
but the situation is better described as: "List is a degenerate Array that doesn't provide ... [typing, mutation, dimension, etc.]"
p6steve ^^that 19:18
Nemokosch that's why it would be nice to have an immutable data structure that is analogous to Array 19:19
not just lacks features, one of which happens to be mutation
p6steve you could say that raku makes the easy stuff easy and the hard stuff possible 19:21
although I now think of it as several gears ... anyone coming to raku can get a hell of a lot from 1st gear - that means the four sigils ($,@,%,&), and leveraging all the features that the designers bothered to put in to the main built ins like Scalar, Array, Hash 19:24
I do get that immutables are helpful in (i) performance with large data structures and (ii) pure functions ... but this is around 3rd gear for me 19:25
Nemokosch also, immutables aren't implemented effectively, as things stand 19:27
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that's something codesections has been working on, supposedly 19:28
p6steve what do you want to use them for?
Nemokosch tbh it's a bit like Columbo's wife at this point
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well, what do you mean 19:29
p6steve what is your use case for immutables?
Nemokosch better performance would never hurt, now would it 19:31
and I do kinda write functional style quite a lot
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p6steve my guess is that the performance benefit comes at GB scale ... a deep immutable is some kind of tree that keeps a scrollable history of changes ... so lets say you go @b = @a >>+>> 1; then you end up with a new immutable @b where each element is a closure of { $_ + 1 } and a binding to the relevant element of @a ... so many/most operations are more expensive ... the speed benefits come with very large data (ie GB 19:41
scale) sets that get marginally extended (eg.a few more elements pushed from time to time) - and there are some benefits if your immutable implementation maps closely onto how hard drives work
since raku performance is poor anyway, you probably are putting lipstick on the pig this way 19:42
sorry must go for dinner 19:43
;-(
Nemokosch I'd rather think of the number of allocations, not the memory size. And that can make a difference 19:50
If you keep having operations for allocating memory that you are going to discard within the very same expression
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raschip Homer_Simpson You know about allomorphs? 20:15
Homer_Simpson not really 20:27
lizmat m: dd <44>
camelia IntStr.new(44, "44")
lizmat ^^ an allomorph
m: my $a = IntStr.new(42, "the Answer"); say +$a; say ~$a
camelia 42
the Answer		 20:28
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lizmat ^^ an artificial allomorph 20:28
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Homer_Simpson looks like a hash to me 20:37
lizmat ? why? 20:39
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[Coke] it's not a key-value pair, it's a thing with two kinds of values. 20:45
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rf It's both Int and Str iirc 20:54
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lizmat indeed 20:54
Nemokosch one traumatic design choice that I might have mentioned - prompt attempts to return allomorphs, hence biting you at a boolean check 20:55
raschip I like that design decision very much, one can input "a number" and it will just work. 21:02
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Nemokosch we have very different ideas of what "just works" means apparently 😄 21:05
for me, it would have "just worked" if it didn't attempt to do any magic, just give a string from a textual input
rf I would say Raku overall is fairly "just works", doesn't get in my way much :D
Nemokosch and hence it exactly "just didn't work" when I wanted to bool check for empty input. It bit me in a way that is hard to anticipate. 21:06
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moreover I question the overall value of Str+Numeric allomorphs overall when there are very suited coercion methods across these types 21:07
so if I wanted to perform math on '0', that would just work 21:08
to be honest I feel quite confident in my arguments against the current behavior of prompt 21:09
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raschip With the current behavior one can do: MAIN (Real $size) {...}, for example 21:10
lizmat my response = prompt($msg).Str;
problem solved 21:11
raschip solving the empty string problem is easy, like lizmat said. Getting the typechecks on input is harder to do if that design isn't the way it is. 21:12
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Nemokosch I think MAIN is very much a can of worms in its current form; not sure what this has to do with prompt, though 21:13
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lizmat - yes, that's exactly what I did. The point is, it seems to have a net negative value. 21:13
it's a fragile (very fragile, even) approach 21:14
lizmat how is it fragile?
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Nemokosch parsing string input from different types can be arbitrarily complex 21:15
lizmat agree, but how does that make it fragile? Especially if you just want a Str ?
Nemokosch the same way we acknowledge turning any type into a string (with .gist and .raku), it would make sense to acknowledge parsing as a distinct step, too
lizmat m: dd val "44" 21:16
camelia IntStr.new(44, "44")
Nemokosch and just not feed some part of it with some implementation, into prompt, that could do one thing well
lizmat that's what's happening: it's just "val" processing
on whatever input from the user
raschip Well, you're just after something other than Perl-like, then? 21:17
Nemokosch well, then I suppose it would be really easy to turn it off, too 🙊
lizmat put .Str after it, and you're done
Nemokosch raschip: Raku was meant to fix Perl's issues, both technical and non-technical
raschip Yep, but still be a Perl
Nemokosch not to foster dark magic
lizmat: we are back to, why do more for less 21:18
when it could have "just worked", right?
lizmat parsing user input could hardly be considered hot code, so the extra cycles used for trying to create an allomorph are really not that important
raschip It has much darker magic than Perl since the beginning, sub val on user input is nothing
Nemokosch it's not about the hot code, it's that it doesn't seem justified to badly solve a problem inside reading input 21:19
even plain old C scanf, which is arguably more transparent, is long considered an antipattern from what I know 21:20
raschip Yes, some people think going away from Assembler has been a mistake
Nemokosch I don't know how that follows, lol 21:21
raschip Do What I Mean has been a Raku motto since the beggining 21:22
Nemokosch anyways, we don't have to discuss that. If we do, however, then please let's avoid these extra fallacies.
the Do What I Mean ship has sunk the moment we didn't mean the same thing by the same code 21:23
raschip my Int $response = prompt($msg) or MAIN (Real $size) {...} ought to work
Yes, every DWIM is followed by a WAT, this is part of Raku design
Nemokosch MAIN doesn't have to be based on prompt though, I don't get this assumption. And again, I have to say, MAIN requires help because it's not solid enough currently. 21:25
let me recite a couple of issues I have come across; maybe you are the one who can solve them
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rf Main can have custom usage messages, it's very good. 21:27
Nemokosch github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5091
its twin github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5090
github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/4889 21:28
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raschip I don't see how having bugs or NYI has anything to do with the design... 21:28
Nemokosch and two others I haven't checked but are fairly recent: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5159 github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5100
I'm not saying it's not good, I said that it needs help to be stable enough 21:29
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rf Stable enough is subjective lol 21:30
I can pick any piece of functionality from any language and find bugs.
Nemokosch it's not that subjective, though
and for what it's worth, I also can't see what the design of MAIN has to do with the function dedicated for getting data on stdin 21:31
raschip Both accept numeric types as restrictions on input 21:32
Nemokosch yes but the same arguments don't fit for both. One does this for what I would call right reasons, the other does this for what I would call superficial design
CLI input is not quite like arbitrary stdin input of a process 21:33
rf Fork the compiler? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
raschip This is about making easy things easy, but hard things are still possible. If MAIN or prompt don't do what you want (returning an allomorph)  you can always do it manually.
Type restrictions in arguments or user input would be much less useful if the only possible type was "Str". 21:34
Nemokosch exactly! prompt does the easy thing harder and the fairly useless thing easier
rf: one does that for pull requests 😉 21:35
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raschip Which easy thing is harder? 21:36
Nemokosch "pull a string from stdin until EOL"
this is the common, fundamental operation, yet this requires going back and forth 21:37
raschip I'm sorry, how is prompt related to that? That's a slurp...
Nemokosch that would be EOF though
raschip I see, that's what get is for 21:38
Sorry by my confusion
Nemokosch now you have a point - maybe a print and a get is actually superior to prompt 21:39
raschip >  (get).WHAT␤3␤(Str) 21:40
Nemokosch anyway, not gonna lie, I still don't get the resistance. I'm not saying this is some top priority issue (actually, the problems of MAIN are way more important), however it just seems so obvious that building this allomorph feature into taking user input (when most allomorphs are highly unnecessary anyway) comes with more drawbacks than advantages 21:41
it solves "half of a problem", and sadly the half that didn't even need a solution 21:42
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raschip And your design suggestion is just returning pure Str? 21:43
Nemokosch that would be the obvious solution, yes 21:44
the elaborate, "make a point" solution would be to make it take some customizable parser
raschip That goes against the language design goals 21:45
Nemokosch wholeheartedly disagree
lizmat I guess we agree to disagree.... can we now look at other stuff that needs to be done ?
Nemokosch well, nobody is stopping anybody from that 21:47
I gotta take this resistance into account when one day I reach to the proposal to take this out, by default at least 🙊 21:48
raschip This has been discussed 1000 times already, and the answer is always the same, lizmat is tired of this discussion 21:49
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raschip We could continue it, but it must be elsewhere, would that be good enough, lizmat? 21:50
Nemokosch well if this really is discussed repeatedly, maybe the time will indeed come when those people who argued against it will be taken more seriously
there are cases like that I think, and they are often related to Perl legacy
there are cases like that I think, and they are often related to Perl legacy 21:51
lizmat \_(ツ)_/
or in Raku speak:
*
Nemokosch one such thing would be this "named arguments slurpy" behavior 21:52
I believe it will go one day but it doesn't seem realistic by 6.e times to me
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rf Lol lizmat, good one * 22:06
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raschip g'night everybody 22:33
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Nemokosch nighty 22:35
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FLI: github.com/lizmat/Git-Files/pull/1 😛 23:14
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