26 Sep 2023
nemokosch but then how can they be not equal, lol 17:21
m: say 10e8.Int == 1000000000
Raku eval True
nemokosch maybe I miscounted
oh right, 10e8 is 10**9 actually 17:22
but anyway, the type is not the same, that much is for sure.
grondilu: if this is causing problems for you, I honestly encourage you to make an issue for it. I do think that it's a very significant problem that the multi dispatch resolution order is basically un(der)defined behavior and I'm sure there are other people who think the same 17:24
it's like, we are stronger together, bluntly put 17:26
if there are problems, it's the worst to let passivity and comfort to take over
tonyo you wouldn't be alone in that ^. currently following 386 or i'd take a look at it 17:28
nemokosch github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/5377 here's this PR from recently. A relatively easy fix for a corner case 17:31
Originally, I just wanted to create a separate multi candidate for the happy path... I think? I should have noted what happened exactly. 17:32
But in vague terms, I created candidate C which made something that originally dispatched to candidate A, dispatch to candidate B. I haven't touch either of those candidates 17:33
actually, I did document what happened reasonably well in the issue (#5340) itself 17:38
grondilu posting an issue is not always the best imho. In this case, I think I failed to realize that Rat(Cool) is less specific than Real. Because of the (Cool), I suppose. 17:50
anyway I think I finally manage to write that class for Quadratic Irrationals I wanted: gist.github.com/grondilu/b70fb0d8a...3f3a7317c6 18:23
It does Real, but man I had to define so many of the operators.
Using Bridge was so not possible that I ended up stubbing it so that the code halts whenever it tries to use it. 18:25
nemokosch maybe it is less specific, maybe it isn't. I mean, it's useful that you are able to convince yourself but really, I think it's telling that there is no proper material about multiple dispatch 18:29
grondilu If you look at lines 78 to 98, really all these lines should be inherited from Real IMHO. I shouldn't have to write them down myself.
nemokosch and smartmatch to a coercive type is broken for a long time, perhaps since the COERCE protocol landed
so there definitely are issues, it's not all just our poor understanding 18:30
grondilu maybe
nemokosch 'almafa' ~~ Real() was False until late 2020 iirc
grondilu still I'm not keen on posting issues unless it's really bothering me. 18:31
nemokosch it's True since, go figure, I think False was right
the funny thing is, I think you might be the person who caused me to open the most issues 18:32
actually, not just about the issues opened, the person who brought the largest amount of problematic code to ponder about 18:33
grondilu lol I've heard that before. I've been told I have a knack to find weird issues or something. 18:35
The thing is, usually when I start a toy project in raku, I stumble upon a bug. That being said, it's becoming rarer these times as raku matures. 18:36
nemokosch but as much as I can recall, most of the things you tried to do made sense for me, it's not like you clearly did "something that hurts"
from my personal perspective, the problem is really that I'm a golem when it comes to stuff like this and I engage in this rather shitty role of bringing problems and criticism 18:40
eventually, if I bring up stuff like this, it will be just received with some personal remarks and swept away, to be honest 18:42
stanrifkin Is there a v6.e feature list? 19:34
tonyo nemokosch: i don't think any of us find it shitty that you bring up issues, it generally hardens the language to not have gaps everywhere 19:52
rather, most of us appreciate it.
nemokosch well, there are direct and indirect ways in which it can appear to me that certain issues inflate by the mere fact that I bring them up 20:11
antononcube Some actively encourage it. (Willingly or not...)
nemokosch sometimes it's the lack of feedback for a problem-solving issue that is either very important or very actionable (as in, I gave loads of details and proposed a solution, like the one with the Raku books) 20:13
sometimes it's the ad nauseam "whatever, that's just your opinion" 20:14
the latter in itself makes me cling onto whenever I see others have the same issue 20:15
tonyo sometimes it's difficult to see past your own opinion, particularly when someone else shares it and silence on the topic is the norm because it's mostly a non-issue for them. most of have been called on that in some capacity, including myself, ugexe, lizmat, nine, etc 20:35
but it doesn't mean the enthusiasm and role are for naught, everyone benefits from it when it's constructive conversation 20:36
nemokosch I think there are several "sleeping issues" thanks survivor bias, that is, when it's not surprising that it's not an issue to most of you, because if it were an issue for you, you would have just walked away 20:37
this is part of the reason I don't believe in "democratic methods" much for certain topics 20:40
I much rather believe in traditional arguments compiled from evidence, fundamental value judgements and deduction 20:42
and it happened just today that I compiled a large argument and it got shut down by "you've already got to say your opinion" 20:43
are "this is very useful" and an analysis of cost-benefit, or giving alternative solutions to a problem, all just "opinions" on equal terms? 20:46
tonyo giving solutions to things people don't think are problems is always a dead end. from what i've seen, the value judgements need to align with the overall goals of the project. having one way to do something is very far from the goals of raku or it's mother language in general and, especially in raku, it's important to balance one's personal preference/opinion/experience with the language 20:57
having only one way* 20:58
nemokosch well, this particular case was about the for-else proposal of Damian Conway back in an article, so the "problem" was defined by Damian 21:13
I think it really was (would have been, rather) a good opportunity to at least try to address why we have such a different view of the usefulness of it 21:14