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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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Xliff \o 08:24
Is there a way to determine if an IO::Handle has any buffered data on it?
lizmat I guess you could try introspecting the decoder 08:25
but that could still mean buffered data at the OS level?
Xliff Hmmm... how would that work?
lizmat or isn't that what you meant?
Xliff Well, I'm having an issue with a react/whenever block. Data is sent to an IO::Handle, but it isn't that responsive. 08:26
I know there is data on it, but it is not getting through to the proper whenever block unless I kick it with a piece of stimuli 08:27
lizmat IO::Handle has a has Encoding::Decoder $!decoder;
Xliff So how can I check it to know if it needs a .flush?
lizmat well, if it's strings, it could be intentional
Xliff It's now.
s/now/not/
lizmat I mean, a stream ending in "a" would not produce the "a" until it was sure that there are no trailing code points altering the "a" to e..g. "ä" 08:28
Xliff I'd rather not indescriminantly .flush on a duration.
Wouldn't such indescriminant flushing accomplish the same issue? 08:29
Which is what I am trying to avoid...
lizmat well, is your stream in :bin mode or not?
if not, calling .flush won't help afaik
Xliff Yes, it's in :bin
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lizmat hmmm..... then the decoder does not come into play and I'm not sure if I can add anything anymore :-( 08:34
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Xliff lizmat: No worries. Thanks. 08:55
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tbrowder__ hi, just tried zef install of PDF::Content and got a MoarVM panic. i'll try again, but it's happened twice and i'll get exact msg and file a bug report. 12:08
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lizmat and yet another Rakudo Weekly News hits the Net: rakudoweekly.blog/2023/08/14/2023-...mlin-time/ 12:18
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Voldenet I really like that gremlin post 13:33
*happy gremlin noises* 13:34
leont Yeah, me too
leont really needs to get of of their writers block, they have way too many half-written blog posts 13:35
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librasteve count me in ... maybe we need a gremlin flair on reddit 13:39
tbrowder: I just did zef install PDF::Content on my machine to see if this sia general issue - it works fine for me (rakubrew on macOS) 13:40
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tbrowder__ thnx. i got good results also on 2 more hosts, then another failure on a 3rd. the original 2 failures included a threading msg, the last one was just "Killed." i think that was a limited memory problem. 13:49
still checking...
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tonyo tbrowder__: are you on osx? 15:38
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tbrowder__ no, debian 10 and 11 16:12
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El_Che tbrowder__: maybe you can see an OOM in the messages/syslog log file? 16:49
tonyo tbrowder__: do you have zlib-dev installed? 17:01
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tonyo err, just zlib it looks like 17:25
apt search zlib (or whatever it is in deb) 17:26
tbrowder__ sorry, i gotta go for awhile… 17:28
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tbrowder__ but all are working for now 17:28
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Xliff DIHWIDT? 18:00
Expansion, pls?
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tbrowder__ tonyo: yes, i have zlib1g and zlib1g-dev installed 18:11
El_Che: i'm looking... 18:21
don't see anything pertinent (but don't take that to the bank!) 18:22
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nemokosch Xliff: did you come across it somewhere? it was a bit out of context 18:51
Xliff Yeah. lismat left it in a comment somewhere.
Doctor, It Hurts When I Do This 18:52
lizmat Doctor It Hurts When I Do This
so don't do that then :-)
Xliff *jinx* -- :)
lizmat: Where's the fun in that? 18:53
I think my spirit animal is a cat...
lizmat it takes a certain disposition :-)
gfldex I'm reading the comments to the Gremlin-blogpost and came across: „Raku is Perl to the power of Perl.“. I want that on a T-shirt‼ 19:08
lizmat :) 19:10
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gfldex Most of the other comments make me rather sad tho. 19:12
It's depressing how many smart folk don't understand that all natural langues make a clear distinction between plural and singular and that most languages have a fairly clear difference between nouns and verbs. 19:14
And they then use programming languages that do quite the opposite.
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lizmat I wonder how much of that is Stockholm Syndrome 19:17
nemokosch the practical meaning of DIHWIDT is "you aren't supposed to be doing that" 19:34
lizmat I think it's more: it's unwise to do it 19:35
nemokosch isn't that more or less the same thing? 19:36
re "programming languages that do the opposite" - Ada. The language that is supposedly so safe and all, yet it literally masks type conversions, function calls and array accesses as the same thing. 19:37
This paradigm strikes me as the most nonsensical about the language. If they really wanted it to be readable, why did they overload even words like is, all and so much syntax 19:39
Anyway, beating Ada is a bit convenient, does anyone really enjoy that language anyway. On a more relevant note: I think you don't get how these people (a lot of people, possibly even a majority) see Raku, or at least seem to show no understanding towards that sentiment... 19:44
Yes, sure thing, many of them are just plain misinformed
But the main, ever-returning theme is not the sigils or say, the coercions, I don't think so 19:45
Remember when Linus Torvalds roasted C++? 19:46
for a long time I didn't understand the gist of it, like what, C++ easy to write? this man is nuts 19:50
compared to C, it is easy to write, mostly the way Raku is easy to write, except like... Raku is magnitudes easier to write, in a large variety of ways 19:52
you can have any crazy idea and Raku is a language that will back you up with it. This is fine as long as you are on your own.
And yes, this is where the "write-only" sentiment kicks in, which I also misunderstood for an embarrassingly long time. 19:53
gfldex Refering to Stockholm Syndrome put the blaim on them or some unspecified 3rd party. How good are we at explaining the core ideas of Raku? 19:54
nemokosch Raku is not uglier than any other programming language; I'd personally say that mostly it is nicer - MY code is nicer, anyway 😝
gfldex The first 2 paragraphs of docs.raku.org/type/Junction are really nice if you want to play bullshit-bingo or are really into marketing blurps. 19:55
nemokosch and this is the problem: "my" code is always nicer and you have to be "me" to understand and appreciate it's beauty
gfldex We know a lot about Raku and then go about writing the docs for it. Is our target audience ourselves or folk who don't know the language well? 19:56
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nemokosch it is "write-only" because when you write Raku, you only have to know your dialect of it, but when you have to read someone else's Raku code, you potentially need to know all Raku - which is a lot 19:56
as for gfldex's question, there is no clear concept on who the audience is 19:57
gfldex I'm especially guilty of that. Most of my blogposts require a lot of context to make sense. 19:58
nemokosch it's like the opposite of "golden mean". If you really want to know what is going on, you will end up browsing the implementation. If you just want to get an idea of the language, it will be too dreamy 19:59
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tonyo gfldex: link? 20:02
to the blog post*
gfldex The original blogpost: buttondown.email/hillelwayne/archi...-gremlins/ 20:03
and the comments on HN news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37040681
nemokosch I have been thinking about actually doing a "Raku for anybody" kind of tutorial series, that would be my last resort anyway 20:05
Having said that, I don't think turning the tide was a simple matter of education. I would be the most surprised if you could win over the people commenting those things. 20:07
The point of education is simply to reach out to more people overall, that's still a good enough goal 20:08
librasteve fwiw i think the post initially feels like an attack on raku ... but actually the tone of the blog in general is quite questioning and i feel that the conclusion is somewhat positive .... 20:09
nemokosch There are things that felt kind of painful (khm, documentation, lol) but I think all in all this is a balanced article 20:12
and really, apart from "the documentation is really poor" and "I can't wrap my head around sigils", it is a reasonable representation of the language 20:13
vendethiel gfldex: clearly, raku needs a paucal form :-) 20:14
librasteve yeah, i agree - and i think that raku is actually a great beginner language (make the easy things easy) which is why i like the Think Raku book
nemokosch I also think Raku could be a good first language
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vendethiel I do think there’s complexity to raku’s singular vs plural: arrays vs lists, etc 20:15
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I’ve been using Raku for almost 10years now and I still get bitten sometimes 20:15
nemokosch but anyway, if my fate is to be some rude-sounding Cassandra, so be it: the criticism of Raku in the article and on HN also needs to be at least considered
gfldex It's also a really good languages for experts but really sucks for the folk inbetween. All those hidden defaults that make it nice to use for beginners that do simple things make it really hard to understand if you do fancy stuff.
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librasteve that would be great for physicists - then you would have zero, one, paucal and infinite 20:15
nemokosch there is a very apparent conflict of interest; I'm not sure if "Stockholm syndrome" is a good way to describe it, that's kind of condescending 20:18
librasteve i reckon that most beginners are careful to be character perfect and do not test the guardrails - in that case baby raku can look and be very clean
nemokosch if you want to achieve more individually or in a small indie team, you want a language that "let's you grow" and have fun 20:19
however, if you want to create/maintain code that is shared across a lot of people over a lot of time, you actually want to have something that builds up very solid core knowledge 20:20
so preferably something small, strict and simple
librasteve gfldex: (i know we have some unfinished business that i hope to better understand and re-integrate your comments in a follow up to my post you commented on) 20:21
nemokosch Perl, Ruby and Raku are mostly created from the same mindset. Python is a reactionary language from that point of view. 20:22
C++ and D (to some extent even Rust) are created from the same mindset. Go is very loud about being a reactionary language (Zig as well but that's still in its infancy) 20:23
librasteve i am an inbetweener and learn something every day (multi dimensional hash anyone?) ...
nemokosch huh 20:24
gfldex @lilibrasteve don't forget slurpy Semilists!
nemokosch the ||@idx syntax? 20:25
librasteve m: my %h; %h{"a";"b"} = 42; dd %h; 20:27
Raku eval Hash %h = {:a(${:b(42)})}
librasteve ha! 20:28
gfldex @librasteve see: gfldex.wordpress.com/2020/10/26/pl...olescence/ 20:29
librasteve .oO 20:31
nemokosch > The ability of Raku to fix past mistakes was planned right from the beginning. This is also a "bullshit bingo" candidate, though 20:32
It sounds very nice but should somebody ask how it manifests, and everybody would be in trouble 20:33
tonyo gfldex: a lot of those comments seem to come from people unable to critique their own favorite languages
"i often wonder what a language full of syntactic sugar looks like, now i know" /goes back to python 20:34
librasteve i get the general feeling that the wider tone has gone from "perl6 is shit" to "raku - that's for gremlins"
nemokosch I mean, Python does have quite a considerable amount of syntax sugar, not sure how that appeared 20:35
librasteve its a reflection that the commenter doesn't know what syntax sugar is - since python is mostly syntax suger 20:36
nemokosch you know often I feel this is why I end up being in a vacuum. The original commenter didn't say anything about Python, that was tonyo's projection 20:38
but it's pretty thankless to chase after whatever seems right 20:40
librasteve en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_F...nce_People
tonyo yea i mean it's just a common shift, the poster of that comment didn't mention python but it's apparent with python programmers when reading through issues. it's common in go too where the idea is that you need code generators but somehow macros are evil and a badword
nemokosch that book seems like a must-read lol 20:41
tonyo it looks like the commentor in that is mostly a C programmer, where macros are yet another form of syntactic sugar
nemokosch Anyway, I'm trying to make this point that it's not only cult mentality. There might be some cult mentality in there but there is pragma behind it 20:42
librasteve ^^ you using a spell checker? 20:43
nemokosch Daniel Sockwell made a presentation a couple of years ago, perhaps at FOSDEM 20:44
That presentation was about how the structure of FOSS development is different from corporatist development. I think that was the right approach. 20:45
librasteve i agree ... 20:46
nemokosch it's much less that there is a Perlish cult and its arch-nemesis, the Pythonish cult - and much more that the corporatist world tends to reward certain social patterns within the technology 20:47
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it's kind of a commonplace to say that Java is "the managers' favorite programming language" 20:47
librasteve ... but there exist python | go | php | ruby coders who feel that they are in a golden cage 20:48
what do you think about the rust book?
doc.rust-lang.org/book/ 20:49
nemokosch I for one don't know enough Rust to be able to decide whether it's more like C++ or more like Go 20:50
at first sight it seems obvious that it's somewhere inbetween
librasteve no, my question is what do you'all think about the style / length / approach of that famous intro to rust? 20:51
like maybe we are missing a good, solid "raku book" 20:52
nemokosch yeah sure, I couldn't comment much on that
iirc the ownership part felt too marketing-ish xD
if you achieve "safety" by merely prohibiting whatever might be unsafe, you should at least make an attempt to explain that you don't miss out on something useful 20:54
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tbh this would be a question for AlexDaniel 20:55
librasteve well, yeah I've spent the last 3 days knee deep in fsking rust ... it's just so unforgiving
why AlexDaniel? 20:56
gfldex The problem with a good solid Raku book is that you would need a forklift to lift it.
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nemokosch well he's a great fan of Rust and always had a strong opinion about what may or may not be the goal of Raku 20:57
librasteve no - what I mean is something pretty much the same length and conciseness (and that we need to rise to the challenge to compress) 20:58
nemokosch yeah again it seems that you guys don't have the same thing in mind. That's a very Raku thing to happen. 20:59
librasteve did you read the Dale Carnegie then? 21:00
nemokosch back and forth
librasteve tenor.com/view/single-ladies-dance...f-12303721 21:01
nemokosch I do influence people. Make friends, not so sure about that. 🤪 Perhaps i should just try saying the opposite of what i think 21:03
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anyway, what is the takeaway of that article? 21:05
better and more accessible docs. Sure. (btw thoughts still welcome at github.com/Raku/doc/discussions/4337) 21:06
one probably can't win someone over whose favorite language is Python or Go. Fair assessment, not much can be done about that I suppose 21:09
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tbrowder__ i say raku is easier for a new programmer than python. just for CLI handling of arguments if nothing more (not to mention python's weird ws thing). 22:07
nemokosch I'm really curious tbh, need to test it out 😄 22:11
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tbrowder__ i agree, sounds like a good research project for a masters candidate 22:38
maybe phd if done in depth with language comparison? 22:39
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