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timotimo oh, moon-child, you'll want to know that there's usually a point in the .bin file where there's a return instruction and afterwards is just values, not valid assembly 00:46
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timotimo wow, this is a whole load of mov 01:07
55 movs in a row 01:08
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timotimo from one particular point the code just goes getspeshslot, sp_bind_o, const_i64_16, sp_p6obind_i, set, set, getspeshslot, set, set, set, set, getspeshslot, set, getspeshslot, set, set, set, set, getspeshslot, set, getspeshslot, set, set, return_o 01:10
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RaycatWhoDat Hey, all. I'm trying to test out grammars by making a script to reformat some code and I'm running into a strange situation where grammars are hanging when I use the <ws> term. 01:27
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guifa (one thing that used to get me with <ws>: it matches the empty string, so it’s easy to catch yourself in an infinite loop) 01:27
RaycatWhoDat wait what 01:28
I thought it was just whitespace characters. It also catches the empty string?
uh-oh
So, tried adding a quantifier and that didn't stop it from hanging 01:33
Is there a better way to say "ignore any whitespace in front of this" than <.ws>+ ? 01:34
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timotimo The default ws matches zero or more whitespace characters, as long as that point is not within a word (in code form, that's regex ws { <!ww> \s* }): 01:56
^- stolen from the docs
RaycatWhoDat Right, but then it hangs 01:57
timotimo are you using "rule" or "token" perchance?
RaycatWhoDat yeah, I'm using "token"
timotimo that prevents backtracking
RaycatWhoDat ohhh
Because space is only significant in rules 01:58
timotimo when there's a ws followed by like \s+ that won't work in a token
RaycatWhoDat Ah
Lemme try that
timotimo since the ws will have taken the entirety of the whitespace, and there's no whitespace for the \s+ to match
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RaycatWhoDat Figured it out. Was way simpler than I originally thought 03:26
Smart-matching got me there and once I had the Match object, .replace-with was a godsend
This language is sweet
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Geth ¦ problem-solving: JJ assigned to jnthn Issue To what extent are resources part of the API of a distribution? github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/234 10:40
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gfldex lolibloggedalittle: gfldex.wordpress.com/2020/09/25/li...the-chain/ 12:15
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Geth ¦ problem-solving: jnthn self-unassigned To what extent are resources part of the API of a distribution? github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/234 12:18
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Altreus Is there a sensible way of having a non-existent hash entry be considered an empty list? map { ... } %hash<value><> 15:02
timotimo you could make it depend on whether it exists by using "with" 15:06
m: my %hash; .map({ .say }) with %hash<value><>
camelia ( no output )
timotimo m: my %hash = value => [1, 2, 3]; .map({ .say }) with %hash<value><> 15:07
camelia 1
2
3
timotimo oh but that'll not Do It for 0 or False or such
Altreus isn't with for definedness?
That's why I wanted wif
timotimo ummm yes lol
Altreus nice
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timotimo it may be 1700 on the clock, but i'm not awake yet 15:07
lizmat m: my %h is default(()); dd %h<a> 15:09
camelia List %h{'a'} = $( )
lizmat m: my %h is default(Empty); dd %h<a>
camelia Slip %h{'a'} = Empty
Altreus hash is being provided to me :)
oh but the signature
*%rest is default(()) ? 15:10
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xinming How do we do circular module loading please? Let's say, in file A.rakumod class A { has B $.attr }; in file B.rakumod class B { has A @.a } 15:11
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xinming If they are in the same file, I can use class A { ... } to solve this, But what if these things must be in different .rakumod file pleae? 15:12
lizmat Altreus: no, that won't work 15:13
xinming hmm, Ignore me.
lizmat I guess the "with" option is you're best bet then
xinming docs.raku.org/language/faq#Can_I_h...n_modules? <--- >_<
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Altreus cool 15:23
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lizmat *your 15:31
Altreus I already forgave you 15:35
lizmat :-) 15:37
xinming m: subset A of Str where <a b c>; sub t(A $x) { $x.say; }; t(A("a"))
camelia Cannot invoke this object (REPR: Uninstantiable; A)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
xinming m: subset A of Str where <a b c>; sub t(A $x) { $x.say; }; t(my A $ = 'a') 15:38
camelia Type check failed in assignment; expected A but got Str ("a")
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
xinming How do we coerce the "a" to subset A type in this case please?
timotimo you cannot coerce to a subset type 15:42
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timotimo what you want is probably where any(<a b c>) instead 15:42
m: subset A of Str where any(<a b c>); sub t(A $x) { $x.say; }; t('a')
camelia a
xinming Ok, got it, yea, I do mean any(<a b c>) 15:43
timotimo when you assign to my A $ = "a", you will only get a check 15:44
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guifa xinming: you can also use ::(“foo”) if I remember correctly, because that’s evaluated at runtime 15:58
Altreus I was just thinking about the magic of junctions
earlier today
I wish every language had them
guifa Altreus: right? they become so natural and the reality is the work arounds for them aren’t always very pretty 16:00
Altreus One of my first mistakes in P5 back in 2008 was doing if x == (a or b) 16:03
I was clearly a visionary but too green to achieve it 16:04
guifa xinming: actually, small correction. Instead of just ::(“Foo”), use CHECK ::(“Foo”), so that it it’s guaranteed to happen at runtime and not compile time
I knew I had used it before and even left it in the comments: github.com/alabamenhu/LanguageTag/...g.pm6#L301 16:05
codesections m: say 'ab' ~~ /[a|(b) {say $0}] ** { print 'outer: '; say $0; 2}/ 16:08
camelia outer: Nil
[｢b｣]
｢ab｣
0 => ｢b｣
codesections why is the outer expression ^^^ evaluated first (while $0 is still Nil)? 16:09
And, to avoid an XY problem, what would be a good way to do this with in a grammar: given a string of spaces and tabs, count each tab as four spaces and match 8 spaces? 16:13
guifa The quantifier gets evaluated first 16:14
codesections My first thought was to do something like /[\s|(\t)] ** {8 - (+$0 × 4)}/, but that doesn't work because the $0 match isn't available 16:15
guifa: :) yeah, but isn't that just restating my question? _Why_ does the quantifier get evaluated first? Is that just a rule of precedence that I need to remember? 16:16
guifa My guess is the way that the other quantifiers were done they work on an assumption that the quantities are known in advance. So the same logic was applied. It’s been a while sinc eI was hunting around in that code though 16:17
I’m actually surprised that it evalutes multiple times. I would have figured it evaluates once and is done
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guifa err actually I guess it does 16:17
codesections yeah 16:18
guifa I think you might be overthinking it though. :$i = 0; [\s {$i++) | \t {$i += 4}] { $i = formula } 16:19
err, <?{ $i == 8 }> or whatever
codesections That's clever, but I don't think it _quite_ gets there: 16:27
m: my $i = 0; say " \t foo" ~~ /[' ' { $i++} | \t { $i += 4}]* <?{ $i == 8}> <(.*/;
camelia Nil
timotimo i would really capture tabs and spaces in two named captures and count their matches and do the math at the end
codesections that has 10 spaces worth of whitespace, and thus doesn't match at all; it should have matched on the first 8 and then left ' foo' for the `.*`. 16:28
Oh, interesting idea, timotimo
that has the downside of complicating the logic for extracting the item after the 8-space worth (e.g., in the above, I want to get ' foo' out, not just 'foo' or " \t foo" 16:31
)
I don't suppose there's any easy way to just replace the tabs with spaces in place, before matching against the string, is there? There've been a few times where I've wondered if there's a way to modify the string-I'm-trying-to-match before checking for the next match, but I haven't seen one 16:32
guifa codesections: you can use either of our methods (timotimo’s is more legible, mine should be mildly more performance for not creating extra match objects) but change things slightly like 16:36
[ [ <space> | <tab> ] <?{ count logic }> ]* 16:37
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codesections m: my $i = 0; say " \t foo" ~~ /[[' ' { $i++} | \t { $i += 4}] <?{ $i == 8}>] <(.*/; 16:41
camelia ｢ foo｣
guifa is off to $day-job, have fun everyone! 16:42
codesections guifa++ thanks. This might be a very basic question, but how do I set $i inside a grammar's token/regex? Is that what the `:$i =0` syntax you used aboeve was about?
guifa yeah, :$foo let’s you set a variable at in the regex’s scope 16:43
codesections guifa++
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AlexDani` guifa: there isn't anything natural in passing junctions as objects, a lot of things break apart once you do, and I'm definitely not surprised that other languages don't do it. But being able to construct expressions without repeating yourself is indeed nice, so Raku just went a little bit overboard :) 17:48
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AlexDaniel as a user, you probably don't consider Junctions as something you'd get as an input, obviously nobody wants this mental load 17:55
and we all get away with it because most of the time people don't use junctions :) 17:56
m: say (5, any(1, 42), 6).min
camelia 6
AlexDaniel m: say (5, any(1, 42), 6).max
camelia 6
AlexDaniel hmm :)
timotimo i mean, unless you type your parameters to take Mu, you won't actually get a junction in your user code
AlexDaniel timotimo: … seriously? 17:57
timotimo: what about arrays?
timotimo ah, i guess
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codesections AlexDaniel: Out of curiosity, how should a user rewrite `say (5, any(1, 42), 6).max` to get 42? 17:59
(I'm assuming that's what they want/expect)
AlexDaniel codesections: it's just a snippet to reproduce interesting behavior, the user is unlikely to type something exactly like that, obviously 18:00
moritz you should not use a junction unless you get a booleean answer
unless you *want
AlexDaniel moritz: what does that mean? 18:01
moritz AlexDaniel: if you try to use junctions for set arithmetic, instead of lists or so, you're working against the system 18:02
[Coke] codesections: I think in general you don't get to intropsect the values of a junction, so I wouldn't expect to be able to get 42 there.
tellable6 2020-09-25T06:36:58Z #raku-dev <jmerelo> [coke] it's a license for the repo itself. It's a markdown file, doesn't make a lot of sense to make it GPL.
[Coke] if you want a set, use a Set.
moritz junctions only help to make your code easier if in the end you want a True or a False as the result
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AlexDaniel [Coke]: so why is it printing 6 instead of 5 xD 18:03
[Coke]: point is, it could've returned a junction itself
moritz: that only works in simple cases. If I have a junction in an array and pass the array to a third-party sub, then I just couldn't know what it's going to do with it 18:04
[Coke] m: say (any(1,42), 5, 6).min # the ordering here matters.
camelia 5
moritz AlexDaniel: well, that's a general problem with violating expectations. If a sub expects a list of numbers, you better pass it a list of numbers 18:05
junctions aren't magical
[Coke] m: say (5,6,any(1,42)).min # the ordering here matters.
camelia any(1, 42)
moritz they work well in just a few, simple cases
sjn junctions aren't magical, they're "quantum" :-)
AlexDaniel how about not violating an expectation that it shouldn't be possible to have multiple values in a spot for one
and yes, that's correct, they work in a few simple cases 18:06
moritz that would be preferable indeed
AlexDaniel which is why I say that it should've been a compile-time feature that simply expands expressions
moritz but typing arrays is sadly also fraught with peril
AlexDaniel that is, no junctions as objects
moritz that wouldn't work in a case like @array.first: Int|Str 18:07
[Coke] m: use nqp; say nqp::isconcrete( any(1,42) ); 18:08
camelia 1
moritz (not saying that's a deal killer, but something to be considered)
codesections [Coke]: it's not _great_ to have order matter in functions named after mathematical operations that are well-known to be associative
[Coke] m: say any(1,42) cmp 5
camelia any(Less, More)
codesections s/associative/commutative
[Coke] m: say +(any(Less,More)) 18:09
camelia any(-1, 1)
AlexDaniel moritz: it'd work with { $_ == 1 | 42 }, not sure about * == 1 | 42 but maybe a lone 1 | 42 could be made a shortcut for that
[Coke] m: say so (any(Less,More))
camelia True
[Coke] m: say so (any(Less,More)) < 0 18:10
camelia True
AlexDaniel moritz: yeah actually I'm fairly certain that it'd work 18:11
but yes, there will be cases that won't, and that's ok
[Coke] codesections: Seems like the solution is to complain when you find a junction in a list you're trying to the the min of.
or, label it DIHWIDT. 18:12
AlexDaniel [Coke]: IIRC .sort already received special handling for Junctions. The ultimate solution, of course, is to rethink junctions instead…
lizmat m: say (5, 7 | 42, 6).max 18:17
camelia any(7, 42)
AlexDaniel that looks about right
lizmat well, if you think that that is correct, then:
m: say (5, 1 | 42, 6).max
camelia 6
lizmat is *also* correct
AlexDaniel why
lizmat the "1" in the junction is smaller than "6"
so it compares larger than 5, so the junction becomes the targetr 18:18
AlexDaniel hmm, what about .min ?
lizmat and then when it compares to 6, the 1 is smaller, so 6 becomes the max
m: say (5, 1 | 2, 6).min 18:19
camelia any(1, 2)
lizmat same thing
AlexDaniel m: say (5, 1 | 2, 8).min
camelia any(1, 2)
AlexDaniel m: say (5, 1 | 10, 8).min
camelia 8
AlexDaniel no, here
that's definitely not the smallest number?
lizmat first compare is 5 cmp 1 | 10, the 1 is smaller, so the junction becomes the next target 18:20
the second compare is 1 | 10 cmp 8
AlexDaniel it doesn't matter in what sequence it breaks apart, it's not the right answer
codesections lizmat: if I'm following that correctly, there's no difference between `any` and `all` in these functions and (semantically) it works to think of them both as `all` junctions?
lizmat codesections: it's the any that is causing the apparent confusion 18:21
but yeah, doesn't matter in this case whether it is any or all
m: dd 1 | 5 > 4 18:22
camelia any(Bool::False, Bool::True)
codesections yeah – and the fact that it doesn't matter is what makes it confusing (at least in my head).
lizmat I agree it *is* confusing 18:23
but it is procedurally correct afacs
afaics
m: dd 1 & 5 > 4
camelia all(Bool::False, Bool::True)
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codesections yep, agreed. I'm really glad the channel talks through things like this; it helps all the confusing bits click into place :) 18:24
lizmat and there is no way to fix this, really, as you can Bool-ify a Junction, but there is no way to Order-ify a Junction 18:25
AlexDaniel well, there is a way to fix it
lizmat please, do tell
AlexDaniel across the whole language in fact, not limited to min/max :) 18:26
lizmat throw out the baby with the bath-water ?
AlexDaniel I've told you several times, it's a design mistake, junctions should not exist as objects
lizmat please note that *everything* in Raku is an object
so effectively you're saying that junctions should be removed from the language 18:27
AlexDaniel no, I'm saying it should be a compile-time syntactic feature
that is, `if $foo == 42 | 43` should work, `@a = 42 | 43` shouldn't 18:28
then all the edge cases go away
lizmat so: if $foo == $a | $b would not work anymore 18:29
AlexDaniel it will
lizmat ah? magically?
codesections It _is_ interesting to think about hypothetical counterfactuals about how the language might have developed if we'd made different decisions in the past. But it's also helpful to move on and think about how to best explain the language we have now
lizmat bar( $a | $b ) ?
codesections++ 18:30
AlexDaniel no magic, it'll expand it to `$foo == $a || $foo == $b`, very well defined
codesections (for a definition of "we" that doesn't, you know, include me given when these decsions were made …)
AlexDaniel lizmat: calling functions is debatable, it can still do what it does now, maybe it shouldn't, I'm not 100% sure 18:31
I don't understand what is so hard and bad about outlining the mistakes, accepting them and perhaps thinking on how fix them
lizmat you will first have to convince enough people that they are mistakes 18:32
AlexDaniel yeah, that's a big problem currently
lizmat no, it isn't
perigrin that's also step 2 in your "what's so hard" list
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AlexDaniel perigrin: ah yeah, good point :) 18:33
lizmat most people love Junctions they way they are now, and never run into any issues or gotchas
so, instead of just keeping on how Junctions should basically be removed from the language, choose another battle to fight, please 18:34
codesections AlexDaniel: In my view, there are two different questions for anything like this: 1) was it a mistake, at the time the decision was made, and 2) If it was a mistake, would the benefit of changing it now outweigh the costs of making the change (including breaking code, re-inventing the wheel, etc)
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codesections in my experience, there are a _lot_ of times the answer to 1) is "yeah, looking back, that was the wrong call" and the answer to 2) is "No, it's not worth changing at this point". 18:35
tldr; life is path-dependant
AlexDaniel codesections: 1) is irrelevant, 2) I completely agree with and I'd love if people were discussing things like that
sena_kun 2 seems the most interesting one here. It is rare people do really care about details like that. Each and every language has mistakes "included" and everyone complains about them but everyone uses them nonetheless. Fallout of the removal would be great and the result won't be tons of people like "Oh, finally they removed Junctions, now I'll write software in Raku". 18:37
lizmat sena_kun++
codesections Well, 1 _can't_ be irrelevant because 2) starts with "*if* it was a mistake at the time". Here, it's not clear at all that it was a mistake (I mean, not clear to me because I don't understand enough of the tradeoffs; I recognize it's clear to others in opposite directions)
lizmat steps away from the discussion 18:38
AlexDaniel codesections: I don't understand what you're saying. Why does it matter if it was a mistake at the time? Maybe it was fully justified back then, but it isn't today. 18:39
and yeah, last time people got very emotional when I mentioned that even at the time it wasn't justified :P :P 18:40
codesections Ok, sure. I guess I should have said «1) if we were making the decision for the first time today, would we chose a different implementation or would we do it the same way we really did»
sena_kun If our human resources are scarce (to be frank, they are), it is optimal to aim actions towards the goals that appear to be like the most result-returning. If anyone would ask me, I don't think "Junctions are bad and scary" is in top 20 reasons Raku is not so popular.
AlexDaniel so maybe let's skip that part x)
codesections sena_kun: Agreed. In fact, I'd go further: junctions are a net positive in drawing people to the language 18:41
AlexDaniel codesections: oh, if you mean that, then I completely agree with! If the feature didn't exist, would we have added it today? It's a good way of thinking about design decisions
perigrin codesections: the problem with atemporal question is we don't live atemporal lives ... 1) is this causing a problem that needs solving *today* 2) what's the cost/benefit analysis of *this* change
if you can answer those two questions in step one of AlexDaniel's three part list ... then steps 2 and 3 become vastly easier 18:42
codesections yeah. But then part 2) is accepting that, sometimes, we need to live with things that aren't the way we would do them if we were writing on a blank canvas
sena_kun In the same way we can talk about e.g. bugs / issues in DBIish, how Raku needs a top notch, solid DB solution and how can we address them. This will be actionable without tearing the language apart suffering code breakages everywhere (everyone hates broken code).
AlexDaniel sena_kun: I don't know. Yes and no. One of the things that attracted me to Raku is that it seemed like a well-designed language that had less design issues than other ones. Don't know if this was marketed, but I felt like that was implied. 18:43
needless to say I ended up with a bad taste in my mouth x)
perigrin it was slightly marketed.
AlexDaniel so if we're not aiming to get a perfect language, then we're again back at the recent-ish question for the council. What's Raku now and what should it be? 18:44
codesections AlexDaniel: yeah, of course. I think we all agree that Raku is better-designed than _most_ languages (which is a pretty low bar!). That doesn't mean we are/can be/should try to be perfect
AlexDaniel codesections: I don't agree 18:45
perigrin perfect is impossible
AlexDaniel the bar is actually pretty high
sena_kun AlexDaniel, depending on the target audience, no? I mean, damn, people write java because their projects are written in java. Because there are tons of libraries, manuals, it is relatively fast and does the job. This, apparently, matters, contrary to folks who think about consistency.
codesections sena_kun: exactly. And you could s/java/javascript/ or /Python/ or /Ruby/ 18:46
AlexDaniel sena_kun: that's totally fine, yes. But if having a well-designed consistent language is not the goal, then what are the values of Raku? That's basically the question.
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sena_kun C++ has so many things (ok, just.. HORRIBLE DESIGN SOLUTIONS OH GOD I CRY WITH BLOOD) that make Raku a nice English garden, yet it is widely used and is taken. 18:47
AlexDaniel because it has other things to offer. Again, what does raku offer? 18:48
sena_kun AlexDaniel, github.com/Raku/Raku-Steering-Council/issues/3 <- no?
codesections I'd say «having a well-designed, consistent language» is *a* goal, because it helps enable other goals.
Personally, my main goal for Raku is for it to be a language that optimises for individual developer productivity (sort of the inverse of Golang/Java – they sacrifice individual productivity for team productivity via consistent style and protective practices that keep weaker devs from shooting others in the foot) 18:50
that's just my personal take, though 18:51
perigrin has found Golang a lot more optimized for the individual than he expected
AlexDaniel sena_kun: yeah, it's related. I'm more interested in the practical side of things, but it's a start
codesections perigrin: I agree that Golang actually does surprisingly well there. But if you listen to statments the dev team has made, it's clear that they were/are optimizing for solving the problems of large teams (e.g., the type of teams Google has) 18:52
perigrin Yes and no 18:53
I think what they were optimizing for was orthogonal to the team size
they were optimizing for large *projects* where developers come and go
codesections Yeah, that's 100% fair 18:54
perigrin and that's the feeling I get from working in go a lot for the last 8 months or so
codesections But that's a large team in my book. Maybe spread out over 4 dimensions instead of just 3, but still :D
AlexDaniel for me, today, Raku only offers syntax that I find pleasing. If you gave me Julia, JS or even Python that simply had the same (or very similar) syntax, I'd be a happy dev. 18:55
perigrin codesections: yes|no ... the project may only have a handful or fewer developers over the course of a decade, but touch thousands of machines and have hundreds of deployments 18:57
AlexDaniel and this understanding is actually rather promising in some ways
perigrin What about the syntax pleases you? That will lead you to why certain features are consistent/inconsitent with that view 18:59
codesections perigrin: (shouldn't that be an `all` junction, not an `any` one? :D )
perigrin possibly :)
depends on what you consider a large team ...
team size is a fuzzy set 19:00
AlexDaniel perigrin: I love statement modifiers, no need for parens in sub calls, $_ default variable, `my` (somehow I always get the scoping wrong in Julia)
perigrin So far you're in the Perl family of languages ... 19:02
AlexDaniel oh, functional programming that reads from left to right :) 19:03
perigrin I don't know of another language with a topicalizer ... lexical scoping is around in other languages and method/function dispatching can do your head in elsewhere
So far you're in a "tastefully constrained programmer wrote this" Perl family of languages :)
AlexDaniel perigrin: Julia is the closest thing I think, JS is also not horribly bad. None of them have all the features I mentioned, of course, so syntax-wise Raku is still better for me 19:04
codesections perigrin: the main tradeoff I view golang as making is that it very explicitly aims to be easy to learn: «The need to get programmers productive quickly in a new language means that the language cannot be too radical» talks.golang.org/2012/splash.article
AlexDaniel but the feature sets are close enough, which is why I say that it's just the syntax that I value 19:05
codesections Raku, on the other hand, isn't as easy to learn (at least at more than a superficial/baby-talk level) but that allows us to reward deep mastery a lot more
perigrin yes Go (and Java) are both explicitly tiny languages in semantics becasue they want to be easy to pick up and they don't want a lot of idioms because jargon is always difficult to maintain 19:06
and yes Raku (and originally Perl) were intentionally idiomatic languages where Jargon was encouraged to improve expressivity 19:07
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codesections Well, no, jargon isn't *always* difficult to maintain; it's always dificult to maintain for other people who don't know the jargon :) but creating your own jargon can be extremely powerful too, especially with a small team that is on the same page about what things mean 19:07
perigrin my verb tenses there and my parens are causing my english diploma to singe at the edges
codesections :) 19:08
I'd make a similar point about gofmt. It's a _great_ tool in a lot of usecases. But there are also a lot of times that I'm _really_ glad there's no Rakufmt – many times, I can write clearer code with more stylistic freedom. And, yeah, that would slow someone else down for a few minutes when first reading my code. But I'm ok with that tradoff 19:10
perigrin I disagree, jargon by definiton is held by a small group ... it *needs* to be maintained to keep up with the standards of that group more than more generic language because changes neccessarily happen faster within that group
El_Che about go and java, both small languages: go projects are fairly easy to pick up and understand, java projects are not. One lang tried to limit the abstraction, while the other went crazy (injections, factories, impl classes, etc)
perigrin hasn't used Java in a *long* time ... was treading carefully anyway.
El_Che so in practice, both languages are very far from each other conceptually 19:11
perigrin that was also my feeling. I was pretty sure my Java 1.4 experience didn't translate to Java 6+
codesections Well, sure. But – well, here's an example: before I was a software dev, I was a practicing attorney. There's a _lot_ of legal jargon, and it's known by only a small (ish) group. But talking about the law would be *way* harder if you avoided all legal jargon
perigrin since it predated generics and lexical subroutines if nothing else
codesections: I'm not saying jargon is a bad thing! Far from it, for exactly that point 19:12
but you have to admit that legal jargon from the 1930s is vastly different than that from today
El_Che perigrin: the java lang is fine and got better --easier-- over the years 19:13
perigrin I'd hate to think it got worse
El_Che perigrin: it's the ecosystem that it's built around overengineered design patterns and every you do is painful
perigrin I felt like a contortionist even *after* I stopped trying to write Perl in Java.
El_Che perigrin: I learnt java to get OO. Perl's OO was too painful pre-Moose 19:15
codesections ... well, actually not really. The legal profession moves _slowly_! Vivid memories of doing both law and coding at the same time: I'd find a "recent" case (e.g., from 1980) and "old" code docs (e.g., from 2010)
El_Che bbl
perigrin El_Che: I learn't Perl to get OO ... Java was like working with gloves on
codesections: fair, I have only looked at the legal profession from a "oh my god, that has to be better than dealing with docker" point of view 19:17
(so roughly the opposite direction)
codesections :D
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perigrin well and I watched 6 of the 7 seasons of Suits 19:17
that counts right? 19:18
codesections haha, I've actually not seen it. The Wire is depressingly accurate, though
perigrin (actually I have a number of books on "how to start and run a law practice" in my kindle library becasue the parallels between that and running a code-consultancy seem enormous) 19:20
Grinnz suits :D
the only tv show with a duchess of britain
codesections interesting, I can kind of see the parallels. But, really, I won't pretend to be much of an authority on that – the legal jobs I had were clerking for a federal judge and then working for a 700+ lawyer firm, so I was about as far from "starting and running a small firm" as you can get! 19:22
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perigrin Grinnz: to be fair she wasn't a dutches when she was on it 19:24
she in fact left becasue she was about to become a Dutchess 19:25
and then they had two more seasons to see if it would work without the main character / premise ... and it didn't.
perigrin still liked it ... but it wasn't the same without Mike.
Grinnz havent gotten to those yet 19:26
sad
but also like... i dont know if its a concept you can milk for that many seasons anyway :P
perigrin There is apparently also a spinoff about Jessica 19:27
Grinnz ah yes
perigrin but I don't think they got any further than the backdoor pilot
kiti_nomad[m] I want to ask some questions about the open source license agreement. For example, I have a program to be open sourced, but when people who use it create a new program, the code based on it must also be open sourced. So, what protocol should I choose 19:28
lizmat kiti_nomad[m]: I think nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_...ic_License may be what you're looking for 19:29
actually: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_...ic_License if you're not Dutch :-)
or another copyleft license, I guess :-) 19:30
codesections yeah, agreed that GPL is basically what you want (not legal advice :) )
kiti_nomad[m] So why can gms on Android not be open source? Why can the apk running on it not be open source?
lizmat kiti_nomad[m]: no idea, feels like a question you should ask on a different IRC channel, not sure which one :-( 19:31
kiti_nomad[m] The linux kernel is gpl protocol
lizmat this channel is devoted to the Raku Programming Language aka #rakulang
codesections agreed. But here's the short answer: Google services don't use the Linux *code* even though they ship on a platform that runs that code (which is also true for many apps released on Linux – just because you run on a GPL platform doesn't mean the same as using the *code*) 19:32
AlexDaniel` kiti_nomad: what kind of a program? For some cases GPLv3 does not imply sharing code, see AGPLv3 instead and the difference between them 19:33
codesections Here's a Raku question: a few hours ago, guifa mentioned that I can use syntax like `:$foo` inside a regex to access a variable scoped to the regex. I'm turning to that now, and can't get the syntax to work. 19:34
can anyone show a quick example of how that works? 19:35
AlexDaniel lizmat: it's an OK channel, devs deal with licenses all the time so we know what they do and can explain some things. At least, it's not a bad place to place, that is if we're welcoming and all :) 19:37
timotimo perhaps more like ":my $foo" rather than ":$foo"?
AlexDaniel of course there are other places for legal advise, but it's OK to ask here too
lizmat I was referring to the question: "So why can gms on Android not be open source? Why can the apk running on it not be open source?"
those aren't requests for advice ?
codesections timotimo: I don't understand, sorry 19:39
kiti_nomad[m] Forget it, I don't understand the problem I want to describe. 19:40
perigrin kiti_nomad[m]: if you'd like I can give you the email address of a FOSS licensing consultant I know, she *may* charge for her services because this is what she does professionally
lizmat in src/Perl6/Grammar.nqp you wil find examples, e.g. token babble($l, @base_tweaks?) {
:my @extra_tweaks;
timotimo there's syntax in regexes to have things like variable declarations
lizmat codesections ^^ 19:41
perigrin (she also does way more than FOSS licensing consulting)
codesections lizmat++ Thanks, I should have thought to check there :)
lizmat codesections: perhaps even more useful, using dynamic vars: :my $*FOO
kiti_nomad[m] Thx 19:42
codesections lizmat: ohh, that made me realize that docs.raku.org/language/grammars#Dy...n_grammars is relevant
perigrin kiti_nomad[m]: is that a "thanks, yes please" or a "thanks but I'm good for now" or a "Oh that wasn't even about you perigrin"? 19:45
AlexDaniel` kiti_nomad: if you have more details like what is the type of a project and when exactly you want/don't want others to share code, we can give you some more specific suggestions. Generally, you are right, GPL offers the strongest protection (use AGPLv3 if you want it even stronger), but the intent of GPL does not always result in people sharing code, it can be complicated. 19:48
kiti_nomad[m] Thank you, I'm not interested in this anymore, I think as long as open source, it doesn't make any sense. In China, open source license agreements have no legal effect 19:54
AlexDaniel` kiti_nomad: well, yeah. However, some people won't use a project unless it has a license that they like, so specifying one is a good idea to attract users 19:55
kiti_nomad[m] Open source may be just for sharing happiness
The agreement has no practical meaning. To attract users, I think why I don’t specify all the license agreements. 20:01
AlexDaniel` kiti_nomad: in most of the world, if a license is not specified, then other people *can not* use it 20:02
kiti_nomad[m] Yes, some people are gentlemen and they have their own principles 20:04
AlexDaniel` it might not have a practical meaning in some cases, but a lot of the times following the rules is preferred, especially if you are working for a company
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[Coke] if I want to use an OSS product for work, it must be licensed or we can't touch it. 20:26
(and everything that does have a license, I have to get approvals, make sure we follow rules of the license, etc.)
El_Che if a project has no license, it's a propriatary product that you can not legally use in a country with copyright laws 20:33
no license == defaults to "all rigths reserved and you have none"
tbrowder hi, need some more help with undef objects. can i alway test $obj ~~ Any to detect an undefined object? 20:38
sena_kun tbrowder, "undef" objects being what, type objects or?
lizmat m: my $foo; dd $foo ~~ Any:U
camelia Bool::True
lizmat m: my $foo; dd $foo ~~ Any 20:39
camelia Bool::True
lizmat m: my $foo; dd $foo ~~ Any:D
camelia Bool::False
Grinnz choosealicense.com/no-permission/
MasterDuke there's also .DEFINITE 20:40
tbrowder i'm using Inline::Perl5 to unpack some Perl data that is 'undef' in Perl terms and need a good Raku test for it. i think lizmat just reminded me to use the Any:D which i forgot about. 20:41
m: my $foo; say $foo.DEFINITE 20:42
camelia False
tbrowder okay! several options. thnx gang! 20:43
m: my @a; say @a.DEFINITE 20:44
camelia True
tbrowder m: my Array $a; say $a.DEFINITE 20:45
camelia False
tbrowder m: my Array $a; say $a.^name 20:46
camelia Array
tbrowder m: my Array $a; say so $a ~~ Any 20:47
camelia True
tbrowder m: my Array $a; say so $a ~~ Any:D 20:48
camelia False
tbrowder thanks a mil. bye 20:49
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tbrowder btw, when using unpacking the perl data the smart match won't work as expected in all cases. comparing on Any:U seems to work as needed in all cases. to detect the actual type i had to interrogate $obj.^name because it seems Inline::Perl5 has its own hash and array wrappers. although they unpack as expected for the type. 21:55
i assume .DEFINITE would work but didn't use it so far 21:56
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