🦋 Welcome to the MAIN() IRC channel of the Raku Programming Language (raku.org). Log available at irclogs.raku.org/raku/live.html . If you're a beginner, you can also check out the #raku-beginner channel!
Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
00:51 buildable6 left 00:54 buildable6 joined 01:33 _________ left 01:49 dbonnafo joined 01:53 dbonnafo left 01:54 buildable6 left 01:57 buildable6 joined 02:19 nativecallable6 left, nativecallable6 joined 02:24 nativecallable6 left, nativecallable6 joined 02:57 buildable6 left 02:59 buildable6 joined 03:47 jpn joined 03:50 dbonnafo joined 03:55 dbonnafo left 03:59 buildable6 left 04:00 buildable6 joined, jpn left 04:41 silug left, silug joined 04:50 _________ joined 04:52 jpn joined 05:00 buildable6 left 05:01 buildable6 joined 05:03 kst left 05:04 jpn left 05:30 TieUpYourCamel left 05:42 CIAvash joined 05:48 dbonnafo joined 05:53 jpn joined 06:01 derpydoo joined, buildable6 left 06:02 buildable6 joined 06:17 jpn left 06:30 jpn joined 06:52 dbonnafo left 07:02 buildable6 left 07:03 buildable6 joined 07:17 CIAvash left 07:25 dbonnafo joined 07:29 dbonnafo left 07:45 lichtkind joined 07:50 jpn left 07:53 jpn joined 07:59 kst joined 08:01 MasterDuke left 08:03 buildable6 left 08:05 buildable6 joined 08:06 dbonnafo joined 08:11 dbonnafo left 08:48 dbonnafo joined 08:52 dbonnafo left 09:01 jpn left 09:05 buildable6 left 09:07 buildable6 joined 09:44 sena_kun joined 09:50 jpn joined 09:56 jpn left 10:04 Geth__ joined 10:05 lizmat_ joined, Geth left 10:06 RakuIRCLogger left, Geth__ left, Geth joined 10:07 buildable6 left, lizmat_ left, lizmat joined 10:09 RakuIRCLogger__ left 10:10 buildable6 joined, Geth left 10:11 Geth joined 10:19 jpn joined 10:24 jpn left 11:05 Geth left, Geth joined 11:07 Sgeo left 11:10 buildable6 left 11:11 buildable6 joined 11:24 FehmiD joined 11:25 FehmiD left
grondilu Type theory is pretty cool. I like how it's used to define integers out of natural numbers. I wondered how it would be implemented in raku. Here is a draft: gist.github.com/grondilu/a9812e3a8...19bd46f5d0 11:34
lizmat :-) 11:35
11:37 stanrifkin joined 11:41 tea3po joined 11:42 jpn joined 11:44 teatwo left 11:48 jpn left 11:58 tea3po left, tea3po joined 11:59 tea3po left, tea3po joined 12:11 buildable6 left 12:12 buildable6 joined 12:21 TieUpYourCamel joined 12:24 jpn joined 12:46 jpn left 12:49 dbonnafo joined 12:54 dbonnafo left
nemokosch aren't classes our-scoped by default? 13:01
lizmat m: class A { }; say OUR::<A> # looks like 13:05
camelia (A)
lizmat m: my class A { }; say OUR::<A> # looks like 13:06
camelia (Any)
13:09 tea3po left, tea3po joined 13:12 buildable6 left 13:13 buildable6 joined
Voldenet there's practical uses of natural numbers being types - once I needed (in C#) the "unique type" as identifier for DI use and ended up using natural numbers sequence 13:25
grondilu lol now that I think about it, the way I implemented it is absurd memory-wise, I would end up making an instance for all natural numbers up to the highest I would need. 13:29
nemokosch oh right 13:30
100 as a natural would create 101 instances
13:30 dbonnafo joined
Voldenet though at some point I switched to using 10 instances of digits and using Number<Digit, Number<Digit>> instead 13:31
nemokosch I asked the our class thing because there is our class Nat and class Int but the latter is also referenced with the fully qualified name somewhere below
perhaps it could be consistent
grondilu @nemokoscch yeah. In any case using instanciation is not really in the spirit of type theory if I understand correctly. 13:32
I couldn't see how to make it work any other way, though.
13:35 dbonnafo left
nemokosch behold, Anton Antonov incoming 13:37
antononcube @grondilu "using instanciation is not really in the spirit of type theory" -- then try implementing in R not in Raku. (R designers prefer not to deal with fine granularities like scalars.)
Actually, since R is descendant of LISP, I wonder is Racket more suitable for type theory. (Than Raku.) 13:42
grondilu I'm new to this anyway. Can OOP be used to implement type theory? 13:43
13:43 derpydoo left
grondilu I mean superficially it looks so but what do I know. 13:43
antononcube Well, sure. But OOP is just a paradigm. Meaning, someone/something should come up with OOP "design patterns" for type theory. 13:45
And since "Interpreter" is well established OOP design pattern, one can argue, that of course OOP can be applied to type theory, at least via "Interpreter". 13:46
grondilu @antononcube you've worked on a Maxima parser, right? 13:50
antononcube Maxima!! 🤮🤮🤮
Ok, good guess! 🙂 Mathematica, though, not Maxima. 13:51
Granted, they are very close...
grondilu I've looked into Maxima recently, it doesn't seem so bad.
antononcube And, I worked not on the Mathematica parser, but just on certain numerical algorithms. 13:52
Yeah, Maxima is fine enough. (Again very similar to Mathematica.)
But I did implemented parsers with Mathematica: resources.wolframcloud.com/PacletR...alParsers/ . 13:53
Since I liked functional parsers so much, I also implemented them in Raku: raku.land/zef:antononcube/FunctionalParsers 13:54
grondilu What I'm interested in is a CAS that I could use from raku. Mathematica is a no-go as almost nobody will be willing to buy a license or install the Wolfram engine. 13:56
antononcube Wolfram Engine is free for developer. And recently a team of two developed a very nice notebook interface to it. 13:57
Do not get me wrong -- I would prefer Raku-native symbolics.
And having Mathematica integrated with Raku, should give at least a good way of verifying symbolic implementations in Raku. 13:58
grondilu Well a test suite using Wolfram engine for verification would not be hard to write. You can always use shell commands. 14:00
antononcube Please see this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeGkJU3wdM
I think it is less than 8 min long... 14:01
grondilu *watching 14:02
I have no idea what ZMQ is. 14:03
antononcube It is used a lot for inter-process communications. For example Jupyter (notebooks framework) is based on Zero MQ (ZMQ). 14:04
grondilu Is this like a virtual network layer? 14:05
tea3po nah
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_queuing_service 14:06
I think it's more like RPC
antononcube @grondilu zeromq.org
tea3po I meant IPC not RPC I guess 14:07
grondilu Why was it necessary? Raku's IPC wasn't working?
antononcube @grondilu I prefer "standard" solutions -- for me using ZMQ is standard solution. 🙂 14:08
For example, Mathematica uses ZMQ with all of its external language evaluators. (Julia, Node.js, Python, R, Matlab, etc.) Meaning, if I want to program Raku as an external evaluator in Mathematica then I would use ZMQ. 14:10
14:12 dbonnafo joined 14:13 buildable6 left 14:14 jpn joined 14:16 buildable6 joined 14:17 dbonnafo left 14:18 jpn left
Which reminds me -- if you prefer to use Raku via Mathematica notebooks -- or chatbooks -- you can use the paclet "RakuMode" : resources.wolframcloud.com/PacletR.../RakuMode/ . 14:20
grondilu I'll tell you what I want to do and if you want you can tell me what method would be best. 14:25
I have this geometric algebra module, github.com/grondilu/clifford, that I would like to improve. Mostly making it faster. 14:26
Every time I look it into it, I end up concluding it needs symbolic calculus. I think the computations could be one shot so I'm thinking putting them in a BEGIN block or something. 14:27
so maybe I could connect to wolframalpha, so that users do not need to install Mathematica? 14:28
Is it possible to submit arbitrary Wolfram code to wolframalpha? 14:29
antononcube @grondilu I will address the last questions first. 1. You can use Wolfram Server or Wolfram Cloud 2. www.wolfram.com/application-server/ 3. www.wolfram.com/server-deployment-options/ 14:32
Alternatively, you can do something similar to the following solution of mine: 1. Get Wolfram Engine (WE) -- again, free for developers 2. Make a Cro application that connects to WE 3. Expose the Cro serivice to end-users 14:34
grondilu That makes sense. So I guess now I have no excuse not to work on it 😉 14:36
14:37 jpn joined
antononcube I have discussed the Raku-Cro-WE solution in several movies: - "Doing it like a Cro" : www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS1lqMDdeIY - "Raku for prediction presentation at TRC-2021": youtu.be/flPz4lFyn8M?si=Ml4UGgsiduI076pX 14:37
@grondilu Good luck! It is in my TODO list to experiment with symbolics in Raku, but I have too many side projects to that in the near future. 14:39
For example, "everyone" wants to talk to me about LLMs. 14:40
(Well, except people from Raku's community...)
14:42 nativecallable6 left, nativecallable6 joined 14:46 nativecallable6 left, nativecallable6 joined
grondilu Well, I think LLM and symbolic calculus are related. I expect LLMs to be trained on proof assistant languages eventually. I would not be surprised if full automation in mathematics comes in a few years. 14:51
antononcube Interesting hopes! I am using LLMs to generate different mathematical models. (Currently) LLMs can be used to reduce the initial, kick-start work. But / otherwise, the hallucinated code / models / math needs to be verified and "not trusted". 14:53
Basically, generate, mistrust, and verify. ™️
@grondilu 1. Do you use Jupyter notebooks? 2. Do you use Jupyter with Raku kernel? 3. Do you use Raku to access LLM services? 14:56
grondilu I could never figure out this Jupyter thing. I have a Mathematica license anyway so I barely see any use for Jupyter. 14:57
though I'm kind of tired of having to upgrade my license every time a new Mathematica version is out. That's why I recently looked into maxima. 14:58
antononcube Try the "RakuMode" paclet then -- if you have Mathematica version >= 13.2, it is going to be based on the Chatbook style. 14:59
grondilu I have 13.0
antononcube Well, to some extend that is why I developed the Jupyter chatbook solutions -- more people know how to deal with those kind of setup. (And want to continuously do it.) 15:00
15:01 tea3po left, tea3po joined, codesections1 joined
grondilu I'll look into Jupyter again some day, but I tend to stick to the terminal so I'm not sure I'll stick to it. 15:02
antononcube Here is a Jupyter chatbook (Python-based) that shows mathematical text generation and rendering at the bottom: github.com/antononcube/Python-Jupy...ells.ipynb 15:03
grondilu I know Jupyter is fairly popular so I may be missing out. 15:04
antononcube BTW, that Jupyter notebook is a good example-artifact of the "less is more" triumph over "elite, superior solutions" (like Mathematica.) 15:06
15:11 dbonnafo joined 15:16 jpn left, buildable6 left, dbonnafo left 15:18 buildable6 joined 15:19 jpn joined 15:24 jpn left 15:25 grondilu left 15:37 MoC joined 15:45 codesections1 left 16:04 jpn joined 16:18 buildable6 left 16:20 buildable6 joined 16:44 notna joined 17:06 xinming left 17:08 xinming joined 17:20 buildable6 left 17:22 buildable6 joined
ab5tract_ I’m trying to recall all of the “three-letter” refactors and I know I’m missing at least one 17:25
Nom = new object model 17:26
GLR = Great List Refactor
??? = ? ? ?
AST = abstract syntax tre 17:28
*treee 17:29
lizmat AST is not really a refactor, RakuAST is :) 17:33
17:36 jpn left
nemokosch To be fair, don't know what to compare to 17:37
But "new object model" sounds like something that might have been a historical mistake
Doubling down on the work of certain individual was probably a historical mistake, I probably don't have to say the name. Those who know know 17:39
17:47 notna left
antononcube Please share the name with "last row". 17:49
Ok, you can message me in private... 🙂
nemokosch what is this "last row"? 17:50
lizmat nemokosch nom even predated my involvement, so I'm not sure who / what you mean by your last remark 17:52
I mean, the "new" on nom is basically as new as en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_College,_Oxford 17:54
17:55 jpn joined 17:59 MasterDuke joined
nemokosch I suspected that "new object model" is something about the metamodel 17:59
seems like it pretty much is
18:01 jpn left
bartolin I'm bewildered and also somewhat annoyed by these statements about historical mistakes. It feels like you speak badly about the past work of many volunteers. (I don't want to know whom you single out there.) I don't understand why you are doing that. And what do you mean by "historical mistake"? Do you think the old implementation (that was replaced by "nom") was better and should have stayed? 18:07
Maybe (hopefully) I'm reading too much into this. 18:08
nemokosch I don't know of a non-volunteer around this language. I am a volunteer and I'm pretty sure you are also a volunteer. I don't think this is a good excuse for anybody. 18:09
The difference is that some people apparently have treated this project as "free lunch", not really taking it seriously the very moment it became uncomfortable for them
it's not really about what "contemporary" state existed 18:11
the community took somebody's hobby work overly seriously
bartolin Well, maybe I'm missing some insights. I've never heard that before. 18:12
lizmat neither
also: I object against the phrase "hobby work"
the fact that hardly anybody gets paid for what they do for Raku, does not make it "hobby work" 18:14
nemokosch If somebody drops out every time any sort of inconvenience shows up, without feeling any sense of responsibility to the community, that's hobby work
I don't even think it's fair to even call this "volunteering", it's just freetime fun activity
lizmat people give what time they have, and some of us have a life 18:15
nemokosch I'm not talking about that, though 18:16
El_Che this is turning dark
tellable6 2023-10-19T18:08:47Z #raku-dev <jdv> El_Che the release happened
lizmat then I'm unclear *what* you are talking about
nemokosch When somebody feels no responsibility towards a project whose architect they pose as 18:17
bartolin Maybe we shouldn't continue this discussion? I don't think that it will lead to anything good.
nemokosch That's really an extreme
It's not exclusive to them, or even to this project, that there are people who inflate the meaning of volunteering to "I got no money for this so it's your fault to expect the least caring or quality" 18:18
but that doesn't mean one cannot learn from it
lizmat stops feeding 18:19
nemokosch starts learning? 18:20
18:22 buildable6 left
to be frank, it's not the greatest pleasure that every time any of you start thinking about these things, you come to the same conclusions, almost every single time 18:23
and yet you refuse to draw the conclusions, because it's inconvenient
instead, I get to be the bogeyman
almost like certain AlexDaniel, really 18:24
18:25 buildable6 joined 18:32 buildable6 left, buildable6 joined 18:37 jpn joined 18:43 jpn left, Sgeo joined 18:47 MoC left 19:05 vrurg left, vrurg joined 19:08 merp left 19:10 merp joined 19:12 dbonnafo joined
bartolin nemokosch: is there a way to exchange private messages? I'm still thinking about the above discussion, but don't want to follup up in this channel. 19:14
nemokosch sure, one sec... 19:15
19:17 dbonnafo left
antononcube damn! I just cooked some 🍿 19:24
19:24 Nemokosch joined
Nemokosch DMs open 19:24
stanrifkin discord-raku-bot is a bot?
bartolin Nemokosch++
19:25 buildable6 left 19:26 buildable6 joined
bartolin is a noob with irc -- /msg doesn't seem to work 19:27
Nemokosch discord-raku-bot is basically a bridge 19:28
the bot that gets to send messages collected on discord
there is an analoguous bot on discord that sends the messages collected on IRC to the appropriate channel on discord 19:29
stanrifkin So discord-raku-bot is a pool of people? Not an individual? 19:31
antononcube It is an LLM. (Not.)
Nemokosch <antononcube> for example signifies that this message was sent by the discord user called "antononcube" 19:33
stanrifkin Nemokosch: OK, thanks. Now it makes sense.
19:48 codesections1 joined 19:52 codesections1 left
antononcube 🙂 🙂 19:54
Nemokosch 🕵️‍♀️ 20:00
20:05 jpn joined 20:09 dbonnafo joined 20:10 jpn left 20:14 dbonnafo left 20:26 buildable6 left 20:28 buildable6 joined 21:02 jpn joined 21:07 jpn left 21:28 buildable6 left 21:31 buildable6 joined 22:04 Nemokosch left 22:28 jpn joined 22:31 buildable6 left 22:33 buildable6 joined 22:41 jpn left 22:50 jpn joined 22:52 sena_kun left 22:59 jpn left 23:23 vrurg_ joined, Onlyme2727 joined 23:25 vrurg left 23:31 vrurg_ left, vrurg joined 23:32 lichtkind left 23:33 buildable6 left 23:34 Onlyme2727 left 23:35 buildable6 joined 23:41 teatwo joined 23:44 tea3po left 23:45 jpn joined 23:50 jpn left

Powered by Cro and the Raku® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!