svn switch --relocate svn.openfoundry.org/pugs svn.pugscode.org/pugs/ | run.pugscode.org | spec.pugscode.org | paste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs.blogs.com
Set by avar on 16 November 2006.
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svnbot6 r15221 | putter++ | misc/pX/Common/yet_another_regex_engine - some non-demonstrable progress. 00:05
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svnbot6 r15222 | lwall++ | pugs parseability tweaks 00:39
r15223 | lwall++ | better workaround 00:48
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allbery_b amusingly that last typo fix missed a typo in the next line: "triger" 01:21
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svnbot6 r15224 | putter++ | misc/pX/Common/yet_another_regex_engine - minor progress. --repl is currently speaking a P5WithSubrules dialect. 01:57
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Debolaz en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=...=106069367 heh, I wish they'd be more creative at least. 02:27
lambdabot tinyurl.com/298n2s
svnbot6 r15225 | putter++ | misc/pX/Common/yet_another_regex_engine/ - Now, to play with a code fork, just copy a single file. You can use the same tests. Thus it is easy to check in and share your explorations. See README. 02:36
r15226 | putter++ | cleanup after r15225 - svn didn't like this directory removal being part of the revision. 02:39
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svnbot6 r15227 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Types.Array: @array.delete(1) should remove the 03:03
r15227 | audreyt++ | binding (i.e. same as @array[1] := ::Scalar()), not
r15227 | audreyt++ | the same as assigning undef into @array[1].
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putter Anyone know what the story is regards ':' in S05? Is : as a sequence commit operator gone? Having it as a quantifier commit is nice, but doesn't seem to subsume its former role. 03:51
TimToady what do you mean by a sequence commit operator? 03:52
it has always applied only to the previous token. 03:53
previous atom, I should say 03:55
putter (?>...)... => ... : ... 03:56
no?
TimToady => [...]:
putter np
what was the motivating reason for attaching it to the atom, vs being standalone like :: and ::: ? 03:58
svnbot6 r15228 | audreyt++ | * log.t: unTODO 04:00
TimToady well, that's a smaller scope than [...], and often handy 04:01
and the same scope as quantifiers
putter pity it makes incremental commit brackety. 04:03
[[[ ... ]: ... ]: ... ]: ... vs ... : ... : ... : ... 04:04
TimToady :: works for that
'sides, we have :ratchet 04:05
audreyt TimToady: the nofat rule.
TimToady ?
I noticed pugs flunked "use =>"
svnbot6 r15229 | audreyt++ | * arrays.t: Fix bogus test.
audreyt it has \h
er, it no longer 04:06
putter re ::, ? [...]: ... || ... != ... :: ... || ...
audreyt as of r15230
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putter (assuming I'm correctly remembering || is the p5 | ) 04:06
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svnbot6 r15230 | audreyt++ | * Pugs.Lexer: Implement the <nofat> regex so: 04:06
r15230 | audreyt++ | use => 1
r15230 | audreyt++ | etc can work.
TimToady good, though I worked around it 04:07
?eval "if => 1"
evalbot_r15228 "if => 1"
TimToady ?eval if => 1
audreyt pugs> if => 1
("if", 1)
evalbot_r15228 Error: ā¤Unexpected ">"
TimToady 228 04:08
putter re :ratchet, ... : ... != . : . : . : . : . : . ;)
audreyt anyway, so I'm wondering, isn't that essentially reparse?
as the \h* is different as used in the normal \s* after the "if"
<ws>, even
which means the spaces in "if =>1" needs to be parsed twice
TimToady yes, I'm assuming that branch will usually fail completely 04:09
audreyt ok...
TimToady putter, if everything that can be backtracked is :, then its the same as backing all the way out anyway
audreyt in Pugs.Lexer I merged with <ws> handling to avoid reparse
and so "if\n=>1" would be allowed 04:10
I wonder what's the downside of that?
(aside from not being faithful to perl5)
putter no doubt I'm missing something obvious, but...
TimToady eh, p5 doesn't care
it's just a comma 04:11
audreyt $ perl
if
=> 1
syntax error at - line 2, near "=>"
$ perl
if => 1
$
TimToady interesting
audreyt ditto "use" 04:12
so p5 does care
putter Given <a> <b> : <c> || <d> it seems the only correct transform is the first mentioned [ <a> <b> ]: <c> || <d>
all the other arguments seem to be "yes, incremental commit is brackety, but given this other
stuff, it won't come up that often".
what am I missing? 04:13
TimToady :: already does what you want
: is aimed more as possessive quantification
putter :: commits the surrounding alternation, no? In the example, a failing <c> should not preclude <d> being tried. 04:14
TimToady hmm, yeah, but it still seems to me that :ratchet takes away most of your use case 04:17
putter could be. I haven't pondered. always just assumed : was like :: and :::. 04:18
TimToady and there's certainly no guarantee that just because you didn't want to backtrack <b> that you don't want to backtrack <a>
audreyt was like that initially
TimToady .*? \d+: for instance 04:19
well, maybe that's a bad example
.*? foo \d+:
putter re no guarantee... oo, good point. that could be worth trading bracketyness for
TimToady and I got my fill of brackets with (?>...) :) 04:20
'course, now that we actually put in possessive +, we could write 04:21
.*? foo \d++
but that doesn't work for brackets 04:22
[...]+ means something else 04:23
putter re "got fill", err, we still have [[[ ... ]: ... ]: ... ]: ... ugliness. we're just saying it comes up less frequently in p6, and it's worth the pain in order to do ... [...]: ... which otherwise would be painfully like ... [...] : ...
TimToady you'd have to write things like [...:]
which just looks wrong
and is terribly ambiguous if there's | inside too 04:24
putter yeah :(
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TimToady In the whole P6 grammar I've not wanted : once, as far as I recall. 04:25
but then I'm relying on :ratchet and longest-token-ish-ness
putter the whole p6 grammar is designed to be non-backtracking...
TimToady well, there is that.. :D
putter lol 04:26
TimToady though I still haven't tackled a non-backtracking [email@hidden.address] matcher
since you can't decide whether it's interpolating till you see the () 04:27
one could hold things in two states "@obj" is array or string...
the heredoc whitespace trimmer has to do things after the fact as well. 04:28
and as audreyt was pointing out <ident> \h* => is also a bit of a problem. 04:29
audreyt I wonder if hash composer can be moved from circum {} to circum :{} 04:30
and leave circum {} to code.
(that is also a postprocess point, and disambig diagnostics surrounding it) 04:31
eg the one STD.pm used to trigger: "Closing hash curly may not terminate a line;\nplease add a comma or a semicolon to disambiguate" 04:32
TimToady well, %[...] might work as well
we talked about this some the other day, but I haven't come to any conclusion yet. 04:33
audreyt sure, but was looking at notational space of null-keyed pairs in p6 terms
since they have proved so useful as rx terms :)
TimToady heh
except we've got :{...} adverbial blocks, I think
putter likes a policy of "given two equally pretty alternatives, only one non-backtracking, choose that. but don't make the language uglier just to make the grammar non-backtracking. nothing much is gained, as the parser will have to deal with user modifications inducing backtracking anyway." no?
TimToady yeah, on the ident => thing, it actually only backtracks if it sees the =>, because it has to uncommit the keyword in that case. 04:34
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audreyt ah right. because \h* is subset of <ws> not the other way around 04:36
ok, fine then
audreyt goes back to Fast MO Dispatch 04:37
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audreyt but maybe I should get trac set up first. 04:38
TimToady and maybe mappings should just autopromote to hashes with sufficient provocation. 04:39
audreyt like assigning into a scalar?
(analogous to List/Array) 04:40
TimToady dunno, but definitely assigning to anything that doesn't care about the order
audreyt so Mapping composer becomes %() and Hash composer becomes %[]
TimToady lemme stew on it for a while more 04:41
audreyt sure, same for the .:delete 04:42
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svnbot6 r15231 | putter++ | project_planning/TASKS - Added a new task: Snarf new parrot regex tests into pugs t/regex/p6regex/. 05:55
r15231 | putter++ | project_planning/TASKS_DONE - created.
r15231 | putter++ | Moved a done task from TASKS to TASKS_DONE file. moritz++
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audreyt help wanted! 08:04
does dev.pugscode.org resolve/display currently (DNS just setup)? 08:05
tene resolves for me 08:06
allbery_b works for me
tene "Pugs - Trac"
gaal works here too. 08:07
audreyt try login with commitbit 08:08
click "Login"
and see if admin pages like dev.pugscode.org/admin/ticket/components display correctly
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audreyt @tell putter is it okay if we port project_planning/ into dev.pugscode.org? it's a bit more structured there, and it'd be great if we populate sufficient tickets/milestone/version/component metadata (use the "Admin" link on the left) so people can see a coherent "Roadmap" in dev.pugscode.org/roadmap 08:10
lambdabot Consider it noted.
allbery_b dislikes my password 08:11
gaal i can't login either.
iirc commitbit username ~~ email, unlike openfoundry 08:12
but that neither works.
audreyt hm.
fixing 08:15
aha, bad PAM interaction 08:18
try again? 08:19
(should work this time)
gaal yes
userid, not email
audreyt userid is correct
gaal *nod* 08:20
audreyt maybe edit homepage to say so? :)
allbery_b yep
gaal btw is there a web svn diff?
will edit
"logging in with your Pugs committer id" <- already says so :) 08:21
the confusion's only possible because commitbit uses the email.
audreyt yes, web svn diff 08:22
gaal oh found it, it's nice
audreyt going to allow snapshot tgz download. sec
allbery_b when I went to your admin url I get a page saying "internal error / no admin pages available 08:23
gaal oh, it's *excellent* even, with its sleek multifile diff and option for unidiff
i don't even see an admin link. :) 08:25
allbery_b <audreyt> and see if admin pages like dev.pugscode.org/admin/ticket/components display correctly
I saw no admin link either
of course that may just mean I'm not an admin (which would make sense...) 08:26
audreyt huh.
oh well, instead of separating admin vs committer
I might as well ignore commitbit settings and make all authors admins
anarchy++
done 08:27
try again
clkao audreyt!
audreyt a dev.pugscode.org/admin should magickally appear
gaal i like how some components have "somebody" as their owner and some don't got nobody.
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audreyt clkao: heya! I've got this GoodEnough(tm) Trac 0.10 set up! 08:27
as compared to, e.g., a customized hiveminder
clkao audreyt: what do you mean? also would you like to visit me this sunday 08:28
audreyt clkao: dev.pugscode.org/ (login with your pugs id)
lambdabot Title: Pugs - Trac
audreyt clkao: no, got family gathering sorry
@tell putter the Admin link should work now - when I get timeslice I'll be happy to chat about org, but for now I think porting tickets over would make (some) sense? also add new components / milestones / etc as needed 08:29
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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audreyt hm, automagic RSS feeds. could be useful 08:34
(the one at bottom of dev.pugscode.org/timeline)
lambdabot Title: Timeline - Pugs - Trac
gaal putting up putter++'s christmas graph there could be nice 08:37
lumi It works, I can login, and the admin pages show 08:39
audreyt cool. it might be useful to shop around trac-hacks.org/ and install useful things in dev.pugscode.org/admin/general/plugin 08:40
lambdabot Title: Trac Hacks - Plugins Macros etc. - Trac
audreyt but mostly it's about content now
I really need to find food (and maybe work on Monday's slides) -- but hopefully this can get us a bit more transparency 08:41
GHC was impossible to hack, but ever since cvs.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary is up
lambdabot Title: Commentary - GHC - Trac
gaal whee cool: trac-hacks.org/wiki/GraphvizPlugin 08:42
lambdabot Title: GraphvizPlugin - Trac Hacks - Plugins Macros etc. - Trac
audreyt hacking suddenly became much much easier
lifting the GHC commentary's outline, or something like it, to dev.pugscode may be fun too
gaal: you can install plugins remotely by uploading the PAR file 08:43
er, I mean EGG file.
gaal cool. uh, i forget where putter's dag is
audreyt conveniently it's linked to from the wiki home
dev.pugscode.org/browser/project_pl..._graph.png
lambdabot Title: /project_planning/a_dependency_graph.png - Pugs - Trac, tinyurl.com/yu9fvz
audreyt dev.pugscode.org/browser/project_pl..._graph.dot
lambdabot Title: /project_planning/a_dependency_graph.dot - Pugs - Trac, tinyurl.com/24btwq 08:44
gaal excellent!
conveniently it's in .dot :)
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gaal ok I know zero python. to build the gv plugin, I need "setuptools" installed. how do I do that on debian? 08:49
audreyt it's already.
but shouldn't you just download the .egg to your laptop
and then upload it again in the plugins page?
moritz aptitude install python-setuptools
gaal ImportError: No module named setuptools
moritz I'd guess ;)
gaal is there a binary egg somewhere? 08:50
don't see it
audreyt oh I see, you need to make an egg first 08:51
gaal yeah okay found alink w/ explanations.
audreyt platform-neutral bytecode really is goodthing 08:53
gaal yay, that was really easy.
for reference:
wget peak.telecommunity.com/dist/ez_setup.py
sudo python ez_setup.py
python setup.py bdist_egg
audreyt and find the egg under dist/ 08:55
gaal yeah. thoguh now the upload fails, with no meaningful error message.
but yeah, i'll moose it from here.
audreyt the PAR equivalent is simply "parl -p" 08:56
but PAR::Repository is not really so well-adopted or supported
let me check errorlog 08:57
gaal was looking for it. where's trac instlaled? 08:58
on feather that is
brb
audreyt heh, bad typo on part of trac
it's in /usr/share/trac
dduncan with this talk about GHC 6.8, any guesses around when it'll be out? 09:00
or should I say, does the current 6.7 do that stuff? 09:01
about GPUs
or never mind 09:02
audreyt gaal: works now. 09:03
gaal thanks. 09:04
audreyt dduncan: haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/Data_Pa...el_Haskell
lambdabot Title: GHC/Data Parallel Haskell - HaskellWiki
dduncan ok
audreyt in short: not really GPUs, but true SMP linear-scale parallelism; also SSE instructions is in
the ndp library is not yet core, but if you install it as third-party then you can already use those data structures 09:05
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audreyt the plan is to make it core and then map the native syntax support for GHC parallel-arrays, so our usercode don't need to change 09:05
it just automagically gets parallelism 09:06
gaal audreyt: where does it put the plugin/conf file? it's not in /usr/share/trac/plugins etc.
dduncan ok
audreyt I'd say another month or two before that's generally stable
gaal: /data/svn/trac
gaal thanks
audreyt np
bbiab
gaal: the bug was, very sillily: trac.edgewall.org/attachment/ticket...load.patch 09:07
lambdabot Title: #3168: plugin_upload.patch - The Trac Project - Trac, tinyurl.com/2735tq
audreyt but trac++ to make it instantly findable
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dduncan fyi, I would expect that this low-level support for parallelism should give my work a large speed boost, which deals heavily with unordered parallel collections 09:14
gaal heh. 09:15
three mo ago? hmm
audreyt dduncan: as long as you use hyperops and junctions the win should be automatic
dduncan yes
gaal how do i restart trac's apache? 09:16
audreyt gaal: you tell me to
gaal (I needed to edit trac.ini)
audreyt: pls restart trac apache k thx
audreyt # sudo /etc/init.d/apache restart
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audreyt already did 09:16
gaal thanks :)
audreyt :)
oh hey I see a graphviz plugin 09:17
that's very moose
gaal uh how do i create a new page on the wiki?
dduncan I don't know if junctions specifically are very applicable to what I'm doing, but working with sets is very relevant
audreyt gaal: you link to it? 09:18
dduncan I also plan to be writing in functional notation as much as possible
audreyt eg dev.pugscode.org/wiki/ThisPageIsNotHere
allbery_b typically you just try to go to it
dduncan or maybe I will be using junctions a lot, or at least junction syntax
audreyt also part of GHC 6.8 is the integration of an event model
instead of like everybody else where event-queue and thread-scheduler are two subsystems, they are now unified 09:19
so we can have a "view" of arbitrarily low-level async events, and a "view" of convenient thread-STM abstractions, both describing the same things 09:20
it's like Coro::Event but reentrant and nonblocking and SMP :)
dduncan in any event, if things go to plan, I should have a Perl 5 prototype of what I want to do within a few weeks, and then we can figure out the best Perl 6 syntax to represent the same work
audreyt dduncan: excellent. 09:21
Caelum so there'll be awesome POE thingie for perl6?
dduncan the latter should be a lot more concise
audreyt Caelum: that seems to follow naturally, yes
need to figure out the event interface's userland ergonomics
Caelum cool :)
audreyt but that's @Larry's forte
tene audreyt: you have a convenient link describing the event model stuff? 09:22
audreyt (the STM vocabluary we ended up (contend/maybe/defer) is lovely)
tene: sure, www.seas.upenn.edu/~lipeng/homepage/unify.html
lambdabot Title: Unifying events and threads
tene audreyt: thanks
audreyt++
dduncan good night 09:23
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gaal dev.pugscode.org/wiki/ProjectDependencyGraph 09:25
lambdabot Title: ProjectDependencyGraph - Pugs - Trac 09:26
gaal but we have to find a way to this automatically
also, if there's a nicer way to display dot files in browsers than huge pngs, that'd rock too. 09:27
audreyt ZGRViewer surely? 09:32
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gaal cute! 09:37
smash good morning 09:39
buu Explosive! 09:40
gaal this looks promising: zvtm.sourceforge.net/zgrviewer/applet/ 09:41
lambdabot Title: claribole.net - ZGRViewer Applet
gaal but the svg must be on the same server as the applet
I <3 how they avoid requiring graphviz clientside by parsing svg :) 09:42
bbiab& 09:43
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Aankhen`` That "Unifying events and threads" paper made my head explode. 10:26
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svnbot6 r15232 | moritz++ | Added testcases for print with explicit filehandle $*DEFOUT 16:10
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moritz ?eval (1, 2, 3).isa("Array") 16:53
16:53 evalbot_r15228 is now known as evalbot_r15232
evalbot_r15232 Bool::True 16:53
moritz hey, isn't that a list but not an array?
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rindolf Hi all! 16:54
moritz hi rindolf ;)
rindolf How do I evaluate perl6 code here?
Hi moritz
moritz: what's up?
moritz ?eval say "Hello, reindolf"
evalbot_r15232 OUTPUT[Hello, reindolfā¤] Bool::True
rindolf moritz: thanks!
moritz rindolf: np ;)
[particle] if you want to do a lot of playing around, use run.pugscode.org
moritz [particle]: is (1, 2) a list, an array or both? 16:55
[particle] that way you don't flood the channel with evals
moritz: i think the answer is yes due to autopromotion
moritz damned, I shouldn't ask "or"-questions ;) 16:56
ok
rindolf [particle]: hmmm... I get weird formatting errors there on Konqi 3.5.6. Let me try in Firefox. 16:58
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rindolf print $s.uc(); 17:01
pugs> Sorry, that took too long! Aborted.
svnbot6 r15233 | moritz++ | lc/uc test cases with German Umlauts 17:07
TimToady yes, a list promotes to array in scalar context, and HERE.foo is a scalar context 17:10
moritz TimToady: so .isa("List") and .isa("Array") are always the same? 17:11
rindolf Hmmm... print $s; reports that it takes too long in feather.perl6.nl:8080/runpugs/? 17:12
lambdabot Title: Run Perl 6 Now -- in your browser!
TimToady well, at the moment they seem to be the same, but it's certainly something that can be tweaked as we go along. 17:13
?eval (1,2,3).WHAT
17:13 evalbot_r15232 is now known as evalbot_r15233
evalbot_r15233 ::Array 17:13
TimToady ?eval WHAT(1,2,3)
evalbot_r15233 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&WHAT"
TimToady heh
rindolf ?eval WHAT((1,2,3)) 17:14
evalbot_r15233 ::Array
TimToady ?eval WHAT (1,2,3)
evalbot_r15233 ::Array
TimToady ?eval WHAT \(1,2,3)
evalbot_r15233 ::Val
TimToady hmm, should be Capture 17:15
WHAT :($a,$b,$c)
?eval WHAT :($a,$b,$c) 17:16
dur
evalbot_r15233 ::Sig
[particle] you are in a twisty maze of disgarded sigils, all alike
17:16 Ricardo joined
TimToady how significant 17:17
Ricardo Hi everyone i have a question about unpack. I have read the documentation, i know how it works within PERL. But i got to get unpack working in a C# environment. 17:18
Does anyone know where i might be able to find more information on the internal workings of unpack
moritz Ricardo: the source is publicly available ;) 17:19
17:19 TimToady joined
Ricardo :) im not a low level programmer 17:19
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svnbot6 r15234 | moritz++ | Mentioned wantarray() in Perl6::Perl5::Differences 17:22
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[particle] Ricardo: perhaps this link and others like it can get you on your way: www.thescripts.com/forum/thread127484.html 17:37
lambdabot Title: C++ IO (or equivalency of perl's pack/unpack?) - C++
17:40 Dr_Pi joined
rindolf How do I get an account on feather? 17:43
[particle] feather.perl6.nl/ -- "see the original announcement for details" 17:45
lambdabot Title: Perl6 Community Development Server
17:49 fglock joined
svnbot6 r15235 | fglock++ | kp6 - added t/01-sanity, edited to fit the kp6 grammar 17:56
r15235 | fglock++ | - added the sanity errors to TODO list
r15235 | fglock++ | - fixed control block pads, logical ops
r15235 | fglock++ | - added 'coro', 'hypotheticals' prototypes to docs/
r15235 | fglock++ | - roles
r15235 | fglock++ | - added 'does' and 'is' class traits
r15235 | fglock++ | - no longer uses Class::MOP
17:57 xinming joined 18:05 nipra joined 18:15 wilx` joined 18:25 GabrielVieira joined 18:31 wilx` is now known as wilx 18:38 trym_ joined 18:55 jisom joined 18:57 jisom joined
NewCoke_ (hiveminder) yet another site blocked by work. :| 19:01
while looking at event models for perl6, be sure to peek at tcl's.
(two reasons: if perl6 has something similar, I can be sure partcl eventually gets it, and I've always been happy with tcl's event handling. it JFW.) 19:03
19:04 justatheory joined 19:21 iblechbot joined
NewCoke_ hurm. the synopses don't really introduce "say", do they. just jump right in there. 19:21
19:27 renormalist joined 19:32 buetow joined
renormalist Hi all! Can someone re-assign me my commit bit. I had one before the svn change. I'm "renormalist" on svn. 19:38
please, of course :-)
TimToady looking 19:40
19:43 rindolf joined
TimToady sent, assuming email address is the same... 19:43
at webit
renormalist k, looking
nice, it works again, thank you 19:46
svnbot6 r15236 | renormalist++ | - just commit bit test, sorry for svn log spamming
rindolf OK, finished checking out r15235 - now to compile pugs. 19:47
TimToady you should check out r15236 now. :) 19:48
rindolf TimToady: OK.
:-) 19:49
r15236 | renormalist++ | - just commit bit test, sorry for svn log spamming
19:50 bonesss joined
renormalist Anyone using svk here on pugs? 19:51
svnbot6 r15237 | renormalist++ | - cleanup comments that mark perl6 related changes
moritz not 19:53
rindolf In this presentation - www.szabgab.com/perl6.html - all the Perl 6 code samples don't have "use v6;" at the top. Is it a good idea to omit it? 19:56
lambdabot Title: Perl6
Juerd rindolf: Check thy mail
Juerd thinks it's a good idea to omit "use v6;"
But not a bad idea to include it. 19:57
TimToady for a presentation it's fine to omit it just to save room
rindolf Juerd: OK, thanks.
Juerd: ok, I logged in and changed my password. 20:02
Juerd Note to feather users: feather will be subjected to password cracking attempts, next week. 20:05
(This info is also in the motd)
moritz during `make smoke-js` I get messages like this: 20:20
# runjs.pl t/builtins/math/rounders.t
open2: exec of js failed at /mnt/ex/moritz/pugs/perl5/PIL2JS/lib/PIL2JS.pm line 167
shay hello folks
hey Juerd :) 20:21
rindolf, shlomi
moritz what's wrong? any ideas?
hey shay ;)
rindolf Hi shay
shay moritz, hey there, what's up :)
20:21 offby1 joined
offby1 is there an easy way to dump both the name of a variable, and its value? I find myself doing say "Foo:"; say Foo.yaml; a lot. 20:22
moritz shay: not much ;)
rindolf offby1: using eval?
Many of the pugs' tests fail on my system after I ran make. 20:23
moritz rindolf: how many?
rindolf moritz: I don't know, I haven't finished running all of them. 20:24
moritz I just smoked and had 97.9% success
rindolf moritz: I'm on Mandriva cooker. 20:25
20:25 nwc10 joined
TimToady ?eval my $foo = 123; say (:$foo.yaml) 20:25
moritz is on Debian etch 20:26
20:26 evalbot_r15233 is now known as evalbot_r15237
evalbot_r15237 OUTPUT[--- !hs/Pair ā¤- ā¤ - !hs/VStr ā¤ - fooā¤ - !hs/VRef ā¤ - !hs/IScalar ā¤ - !hs/VInt ā¤ - 123ā¤ā¤] Bool::True 20:26
TimToady ?eval my $foo = 123; say (:$foo.perl) 20:27
evalbot_r15237 OUTPUT[("foo" => \123)ā¤] Bool::True
moritz should sqrt() work on negative and complex numbers?
TimToady ?eval my $foo = 123; say (:$foo) 20:28
evalbot_r15237 OUTPUT[foo123ā¤] Bool::True
moritz and if so, which of the complex roots should come out? 0 <= arg(sqrt($x)) <= pi?
TimToady ?eval sqrt(-1) 20:29
evalbot_r15237 NaN
moritz TimToady: that's why I'm asking ;)
TimToady ?eval sqrt(-1+0i)
evalbot_r15237 0.0 + 1.0i
moritz ;) 20:30
TimToady sqrt keeps its type the same, I think
moritz ?eval my $i is Int = 3; sqrt($i)
nwc10 ?eval exp(2i * atan2(1,0))
evalbot_r15237 1.7320508075688772 20:31
Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&atan2"
nwc10 oh. where are all the maths functions? :-(
20:31 Squern joined
moritz nwc10: atan2 wants two arguemnts 20:31
no, i'm wrong, sorry
nwc10 I thought that I had given it two
?eval exp(2i * atan2(1.0,0.0)) 20:32
evalbot_r15237 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&atan2"
TimToady sqrt(Int) autopromotes to sqrt(Num) by the usual Int->Num rules 20:34
we haven't got autopromotion to Complex
and I believe luqui argued against it for sqrt() 20:35
moritz most users would be surprised if sqrt(-1) worked, yea
?eval sqrt(-1i) 20:42
evalbot_r15237 0.7071067811865476 + -0.7071067811865475i
TimToady ?eval my $x = -1; sqrt($x.i) 20:44
evalbot_r15237 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&i"
TimToady hah
moritz TimToady: should that work?
TimToady yes
?eval my $x = -1; sqrt(($x)i)
that shouldn't
evalbot_r15237 0.7071067811865476 + -0.7071067811865475i
TimToady er, should 20:45
moritz I'm writing a few testcases for sqrt, so I can include that one
TimToady ?eval my $x = 1; $x.++; say $x
evalbot_r15237 OUTPUT[2ā¤] Bool::True
TimToady ?eval my $x = 1; $x.i; say $x 20:46
evalbot_r15237 Error: No compatible subroutine found: "&i"
TimToady strange
?eval my $x = 1; $x.'i'; say $x 20:47
evalbot_r15237 Error: ā¤Unexpected "'"ā¤expecting ".", "\187", ">>", "=", operator name, qualified identifier, variable name, "...", "--", "++", "i", array subscript, hash subscript or code subscript
TimToady ?eval my $x = 1; $x>>i; 20:48
evalbot_r15237 Error: Hyper OP only works on lists
20:50 offby1 left
moritz TimToady: should sqrt(-1i) return (1-1i)/sqrt(2) or (-1+i)/sqrt(2)? 20:50
TimToady: both are valid solutions 20:51
TimToady: or should it just return any valid solution? 20:52
TimToady I have no opinion on the subject, but maybe it returns both in list context, and then you can write any(sqrt(-1i)) 20:53
moritz hm 20:54
TimToady or maybe that should be sqrts 20:55
just to avoid surprising people in accidental list context
moritz sounds like a good idea 20:56
TimToady generalizes to any root/roots kind of call too.
rindolf My test results are:
Failed 41/670 test scripts, 93.88% okay. 195/16168 subtests failed, 98.79% okay.
TimToady the plural form returns the list, and the user coerces to any, all, Set, whatever 20:57
moritz TimToady: mathematicians will love you/us for that one ;)
TimToady I've long since learned that my intuitions don't map well onto the intuitions of standard mathematicians... :/ 20:59
svnbot6 r15238 | moritz++ | Added complex text cases to sqrt()
TimToady feel free to update Functions with the plural version
21:01 putter joined
putter 21:01
lambdabot putter: You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
moritz roots(x) gives the two roots of x, and roots(x, n) all n-th roots x?
TimToady roots(n) always gives all of them
moritz right 21:02
TimToady er, roots(n,x) rather
I wonder if the 2.5th root of 2 returns 2.5 values... 21:03
moritz and n mandatory?
TimToady yes
maybe the other way around
$x.roots(3) is cube roots 21:04
21:04 coke joined
coke . 21:04
TimToady 3.roots($x) is weird
so put x first
coke is finding that irssi with multiple server connections doesn't deal well with network loss. :|
putter @tell audreyt re "is it okay if we port project_planning/ into dev.pugscode.org?", certainly.
lambdabot Consider it noted.
21:04 coke is now known as NewCoke
NewCoke any comment on my earlier "say" sends that I missed? 21:05
TimToady someone should change the channel headline to point to project planning
say is mentioned in IO
and even refers to a slightly more correct print entry now. :)
putter audreyt: Could you outline your vision for the trac? 21:06
moritz should say accept a filehandle just like print?
TimToady yes
21:06 mrossetti joined
NewCoke TimToady: be nice if it was at least given a forward reference earlier... or is that something more for merlyn to worry about? 21:06
TimToady it was forward referenced in one of the early apocalypses. :) 21:07
NewCoke (IO) er... which synopsis is that?
you need a horde of documentation daemons. =-)
21:08 mrossetti left
TimToady or make that one of the late apocalypses... 21:08
dunno, it's called IO.pod in pugs 21:09
S16, looks like
moritz TimToady: so what should I write as roots()'s signature? is there something like List<Num> ?
21:10 ludan joined
NewCoke S16? dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/synopsis.html shows no such beast. =-) 21:10
lambdabot Title: Synopses - perl6
NewCoke checks to see if he has write access to that website...
TimToady (in Num) method roots (Num $x: Int $n --> List of Num) {...} 21:11
or some such
oh, with an "is export" in there to get the roots($x,$n) form as well. 21:12
NewCoke TimToady: Hurm. seems like the website has the .pod in there. Any idea if those are links to another repository? to me, they look like snapshots...
TimToady otherwise people would always have to write roots($x: $n)
putter audreyt: Having a wiki again would be nice. I wonder if trac is quite the right one. Vs say wikimedia. Trac has gotchas, like irreversible "delete page", can't rename pages, ah well. Has some nice things too. I'm just not sure how usable the wiki side is.
TimToady or how 'bout leave out sqrts and just have roots default $n to 2? 21:13
maybe not.
moritz TimToady: that's not "least surprise" ;)
TimToady yeah 21:14
NewCoke wiki: there's the wiki that parrot's using. I'm sure andy'd let you use that one.
TimToady someone should write a wiki in Perl 6 named "viki" 21:15
svnbot6 r15239 | moritz++ | Added spec for roots($x, $n)
NewCoke that's werry funny. 21:16
diotalevi Because it'd have less 'v'?
vviki -> wiki - v.
TimToady and then write a sane vi syntax and call in 'vik'
diotalevi er.
TimToady then we could all be vikings
NewCoke ah. the update script in the doc directory you mentioned doesn't take care of IO. =-) 21:17
TimToady perl vi
nwc10 it's discrimination against emacs users, I tell you.
there will be a perl emacs fork if we're not careful :-)
putter audreyt: re encoding the graph in tickets, the graph really ended up merely an illustrative sketch. Even with more powerful graphing tools than graphviz, I couldn't show real dependencies and tasks. Just don't have the tool set for the dynamic richness of anarchistic flooding development. ;)
TimToady perl evacs
or eviks
moritz nwc10: emacs users have lisp ;)
TimToady Perl 6 is just another dialect of Lisp 21:18
diotalevi evacs - e is a heating and ventilation system?
TimToady someone needs to write an elisp-to-plisp translator. :)
moritz TimToady: that's worth a `fortune'-Line ;)
diotalevi plisp?
TimToady yeah, with a file extension of .pl 21:19
NewCoke so, anyone want to make sure all the SYN end up on the dev.perl.org site? Or should I open a ticket and force Robrt to do it? =-) 21:20
diotalevi complains that elisp doesn't have closures or lexical variables (unless you also load the cl common lisp package).
21:20 Aankhen`` joined
moritz NewCoke: where are they now? 21:20
NewCoke: and where in the repository is dev.perl.org?
NewCoke I don't know where they all live now. 21:21
TimToady a more up-to-date location is perlcabal.org/syn/?
lambdabot Title: Official Perl 6 Documentation
NewCoke I was thinking dev.perl.org was canonical, which it ain't. =-)
TimToady maybe dev.perl.org should just point to something that easier to update
NewCoke TimToady: do you see an issue with redirecting dev.perl.org/ users there? 21:22
Khisanth I thought Perl was good for automating stuff :P
NewCoke ... ok. that I think I have rights to do.
TimToady only potential turf issues, which are always so easy to solve... :) 21:23
bbl & 21:25
putter TimToady: What is the state of the STD regex section?
TimToady um, untested
putter extend of coverage? 21:26
(work in progress, thought to be fairly complete, etc)
TimToady mostly complete syntactically, I think, but depends on things that aren't implemented in pugs
putter np
TimToady like multi rules
putter thanks
21:26 dduncan joined
putter oh, hmm, multi rules 21:26
ok, thanks 21:27
TimToady &
putter ohhh, those multi rules, np
bye
& 21:28
renormalist I haven't seen an entry on pugs.blogs.com from audrey for a long time. Is she ok? I could only loosely follow pugs so I'm not best informed about the progress and read pugs.blogs.com for first time in weeks. 21:32
Khisanth she was chatting about stuff this morning :) 21:35
NewCoke she's only got half her free time allocated to pugs atm, as I recall.
... but that was up from 0. 21:36
shay|p6 folks, is someone working on testing Perl6 on NetBSD and/or sparc64? 21:41
I got a Sun Ultra10 and I'd like to test and report bugs from it, but I want to make sure that I don't reinvent the wheel :)
[particle] check smoke.pugscode.org 21:42
shay|p6 I will 21:43
21:48 cjeris joined
tene Hmm... the BSD::Resource stuff in evalbot doesn't seem to protect against "fork while fork' 21:58
TimToady that part is enforced by Dutch Goons. 22:00
Khisanth in wooden shoes? 22:01
TimToady the concrete shoes are for you. 22:02
shay|p6 can you guys give me pointers to stuff I should try other than running the Pugs tests/smoke? other testing resources? maybe BSD/sparc specific? 22:05
I'm sorry that I'm bugging with questions, but I'm not experienced with programming languages internals and I'm seeking for a start, I think that a rare architecure/system mix can be a good one 22:06
[particle] shay: you want to be a platform porter for pugs on your shiny new box, and don't know where to start? is that right? 22:08
shay|p6 [particle]: that might be a way for saying part of the idea, yes :) 22:09
[particle] you'll need to get ghc to compile before you can compile pugs
22:09 Psyche^ joined
shay|p6 I guess that it's the Haskell compiler, right? 22:10
[particle] yes
shay|p6 I'll check documentation for building it
[particle] i'd love it if you could try building parrot, too
shay|p6 writes down on his todo list 22:11
I hope that I'll be able to give you results before Sunday
[particle] there's a wider audience on the mailing lists than on irc. 22:12
shay|p6 I'm registred to..
sec
perl6-announce, perl6-language, perl6-users and perl6-compiler
any other important list that I should be registered on? 22:13
[particle] perl6-internals is the parrot list
shay|p6 subscribin
g 22:14
[particle] perl6-compiler has both parrot and pugs related info
shay|p6++ for enthusiasm and initiative
TimToady indeed 22:16
22:16 mr_ank_ joined
TimToady have you got a pugs commit bit yet? 22:16
shay|p6 me? 22:17
TimToady well, I know [particle] has one... 22:18
shay|p6 no, I don't
didn't had nothing to commit yet
TimToady if you send an email address to me, I can send you a commit bit
portability fixes are certainly welcome
and you'll probably want to make your first commit when everyone here is off in a hotsprings or some such... 22:19
shay|p6 sent you an e-mail address in /msg
TimToady what do you want for your nickname?
shay|p6 shay would be ok :)
[particle] remembers the pohoiki warm springs fondly 22:20
TimToady sent
it's customary to add your name to AUTHORS as your first commit to see if it works.
so you *do* have something to commit. :) 22:21
shay|p6 awesome, thanks a lot :)
TimToady np 22:22
22:22 Psyche^ is now known as Patterner 22:38 reZo_ joined 22:39 Aankh|Clone joined
audreyt @tell putter clicking on "Admin" displays a "wikirename" page; I've blocked irreversible deletes 22:40
lambdabot Consider it noted.
nothingmuch @tell audreyt moose! 22:45
svnbot6 r15240 | moritz++ | Added test file for roots() (complex roots)
lambdabot Consider it noted.
nothingmuch is in a silly oh-dear-god-i-really-should-be-packing mood 22:46
audreyt moose!
lambdabot audreyt: You have 11 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
22:49 cjeris left
gaal nothingmuch: moose! 22:50
nothingmuch yo yo yo homie yo
gaal what hour's your flight? 22:51
nothingmuch 11:30
gaal am?
nothingmuch si
pm would be23
the situation is not so grim though
gaal thou needs must pack 22:52
nothingmuch i'm almost done finding the stuff i should be packing ;-)
that usually takes me the longesy
*longest
22:53 pdcawley joined
gaal don't forget reservation #s, passport, and credit card. the rest is recommended. :) 22:53
have fun and don't die! moose. 22:54
z&
nothingmuch: try { all that stuff }
nothingmuch will try extra hard
i already have the most important thing
(1kg of turkish coffee) 22:55
gaal haha. ++
re-z&
nothingmuch ciao ciao
btw
shay|p6 layla tov gaal
nothingmuch if you have friends looking to offload furniture please drop amir a line
furniture and/or appliances
gaal will do. shay|p6: layla tov 22:56
re-re-z&
nothingmuch oh and one last thing, gaal
(/me wants to get a re-re-re-z, to see if it becomes re^3-z
shay|p6 yeah, why should we let him sleep
nothingmuch he's being serious about sleep =( 22:57
TimToady 'sides, it's already tomorrow for the important people like audreyt
nothingmuch feels important, since it's 00:57
shay|p6 well, here is Feb 02 already if that counts 22:58
nm, are you from Israel too?
nothingmuch si si
currently residing near beer sheva
shay|p6 y hablas espaōæ½xF1ol tambiōæ½xE9n? ;)
nothingmuch but me and my BFFL just signed a contract on a shiny old flat in T.A.
no i don't parle vouz spanish at all ;-)
22:58 Limbic_Region joined
shay|p6 mazal tov 22:59
nothingmuch i can say esteban
(my boss's name)
shay|p6 I'm from jerusalem
nothingmuch and I can type things like seƱora
jerusalem is awesome
shay|p6 jerusalem is teh placer
-r
nothingmuch is sort of settling for T.A., but as long as it isn't beer sheva i'm happy ;-
)
friends are more important than cities though
shay|p6 yeah, I don't like BS too much neither
see, most of my service was in the south 23:00
so, no matter what, you must go over BS without any good memories behind it :)
nothingmuch anymoose, i have to sleep 23:02
err, pack
flight tomorrow morning =)
shay|p6 g'nite, where are you traveling to? 23:03
nothingmuch step 1 is to work at my boss's house
step 2 is to die (err, not die, sorry gaal) in the snow
gaal if yer so smart why don't you reverse the order huh? that way you don't have to work 23:04
re-etc. & 23:05
shay|p6 I knew he was spying.
gaal no privacy these days.
shay|p6 you bet
gaal Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "moose" at will to old ladies. 23:08
shay|p6 do you have insomnia or something? 23:09
gaal no, but this chair's so warm and cozy.
23:09 Aankh|Clone is now known as Aankhen``
gaal however! we shall overcome. zzZZZ(!) & 23:10
shay|p6 lets start the bets on how many time will it take for gaal to type again
lumi 10 credits on 6 hours 23:15
shay|p6 no way, he's still spying 23:16
Limbic_Region @tell audreyt see use.perl.org/~jjore/journal/32362 regarding STM and some *apparent* negative press
lambdabot Consider it noted.
lumi 10 credits on 6 minutes, then
Limbic_Region oh, gaal - you might be interested in that too
shay|p6 5 credits on less than 30 minutes
23:21 Aankhen`` joined, larsen_ joined
svnbot6 r15241 | shay++ | Added myself to try the SVN :-) 23:27
audreyt Limbic_Region: heya :) 23:28
lambdabot audreyt: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
audreyt lambdabot: @moosages
lambdabot Limbic_Region said 11m 47s ago: see use.perl.org/~jjore/journal/32362 regarding STM and some *apparent* negative press
allbery_b rolls his eyes 23:29
audreyt Limbic_Region: well, the point is valid, that share-everything has drawbacks
STM fixes the drawbacks to a degree but still if you can design the code to share nothing, the better 23:30
Limbic_Region audreyt - didn't read it, just saw that diotalevi was asking TimToady about it at PerlMonks and then saw his use.perl entry
though I would pass it on
allbery_b he's right, share-nothing is ideal. so's world peace. both are about equally likely...
audreyt not really sensational :)
Limbic_Region out of curiosity, anyone have Solaris 9 or 10 handy?
allbery_b both 23:31
(9/sparc 10/x86)
...but pugs on neither, nor likely
Limbic_Region allbery_b - can you try: use Fcntl ':flock'; open(my $fh, '<', $0) or die $!; flock($fh, LOCK_EX | LOCK_NB) or die $!; print 'made it';
this is perl 5 question
Limbic_Region isn't sure if it is a platform or a perl issue (I had the default perl which is 5.6.1 I believe) 23:32
audreyt - are you up early or haven't been to sleep yet?
allbery_b sol9 prints "made it" 23:34
Limbic_Region interesting - I got bad file descriptor
allbery_b sol10 x86 "Bad fle descriptor" 23:35
er, Bad file number
Limbic_Region right
ok - so what is the perl -v of each?
allbery_b 5.8.3 on sol9, 5.8..4 on sol10
23:36 stephang joined
Limbic_Region ok, so perhaps it is a platform thing cause I think I had 10 when it failed 23:38
allbery_b at a guess, flock may be emulated with fcntl on sol10 --- although the error seems a little odd in that case, but maybe it's correct too
(fcntl you can
t lock exclusive if you open for read) 23:39
diotalevi allbery_b: I don't have a dog in this horse race. I'm pondering how to use STM badly and how to use it well and what new kinds of problems having it around means. I'm pretty ignorant on the subject right now.
audreyt diotalevi: replied
Limbic_Region allbery_b - it is a MJD trick to make sure you only have one copy of a program running at a time (exclusive lock on the program itself)
allbery_b - it works fine if you flock something other than $0 23:40
allbery - in any case, I worked around it
allbery_b ah
Limbic_Region 3333......
allbery_b hm
allbery_b wonders what $0 is
Limbic_Region my daughter says hello
allbery_b /dev/fds/mumble?
diotalevi saw that, audreyt. I'm looking to get a copy of CTM now since that has PR saying it covers lots of this stuff. 23:41
audreyt diotalevi: "just because your RDBMS has row-level locking, it doesn't mean you want to put all data into one single table"
that's essentialy patricklogan's argument
which is valid.
allbery_b nope
interesting
audreyt but rowlevellocking is useful.
bbiab
("row-level locking encapsulated in SQL transactions" is analagous to STM.) 23:42
23:43 stephang is now known as sgt, sgt is now known as stephang
diotalevi So, fair enough. It seems fairly uncontroversial as far as databases as big external global variables go. I'd recently learned some Mozart/Oz to get at their constraint solving libraries and found it had builtin data flow concurrency which I'm told is similar to whatver it is that Erlang does. 23:44
TimToady stephang: if you use #cbstream you can keep an eye on the chatterbox at the same time. :) 23:48
stephang ok thanks 23:49
23:49 polettix joined 23:50 ashelyb_ joined
Limbic_Region ++ 23:51
+
diotalevi Also, Mozart/Oz was *really* only of interest because it has constraints as a feature that's very close to the standard syntax so the intention is that it's trivial to say "ok, now this next bit I want the constraint solver to deal with" instead of having to actually go code all the foreach/prune code that'd be normal in perl or whatever.
Limbic_Region Jasmine wanted to karma someone apparently
;-)

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