pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by diakopter on 11 July 2007.
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bloonix morning 06:12
dduncan soon 06:24
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meppl good morning 07:10
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masak moritz_: I'm on another channel, #bioclipse, on freenode. they are looking for an IRC logging solution. what would you recommend? 09:34
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pugs_svnbot r17184 | masak++ | [t/syntax/interpolation/strings.t] 10:04
r17184 | masak++ | * some tests in eval() where not run, adding // ok( "" )
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17184
lambdabot Title: Changeset 17184 - Pugs - Trac
masak I still think it would be very possible to develop a little Emacs/vi tool that auto-calculated the number after 'plan' 10:05
I'd like to write such a tool, but I would need some real-world data to test on
then I realized that the Pugs test suite is perfect for this
& # lunch 10:07
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wolverian masak, the one we use seems ok 10:48
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wolverian hm, now that I look at it, it aligns the nicks higher than the text lines 10:48
that looks weird
omg it uses Net::IRC 10:49
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masak wolverian: do you mean this one? colabti.de/irclogger//irclogger_logs 11:19
lambdabot Title: Logs of IRC channels
masak appears that it's the #irclogger people that handle that one 11:20
wolverian masak, I meant irc.pugscode.org, as in topic
masak wolverian: ah, yes. that's why I asked moritz_++ 11:21
wolverian but that looks good too, and maybe it doesn't use Net::IRC ;)
masak it uses something called irclogger2
don't know if that uses Net::IRC
wolverian it's python, so no..
masak ah 11:22
ilogger2: so it's you who keeps our logs at colabti... 11:23
ilogger2 masak: I am a logger bot. Lines starting with [off] won't be logged. Extra help available at colabti.de/irclogger/irclogger_logs.
lambdabot Title: Logs of IRC channels
masak right. I knew that
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masak but thx :) 11:23
is it "it's you who keeps" in modern english? 11:24
"it's you who keep" sounds wrong to me
but in archaic english you say "Father, [you] who art in Heaven" 11:25
yuck, verb endings that change depending on grammatic person are stupid 11:26
diakopter masak: but English might regain such endings, if the trend towards dropping nominative pronouns continues. 11:29
masak there's such a trend? 11:30
didn't know
diakopter at least on IRC/IM/txt :P 11:31
masak now that I think about it, I do it in Swedish quite a bit when writing emails to friends
wolverian interesting, search.cpan.org/~philcrow/Java-Java...java2perl6 11:32
lambdabot Title: java2perl6 - a Java to Perl 6 API translator - search.cpan.org
diakopter yeah... much of the time, the context or even (*gasp*) `lilt' can indicate person. 11:33
masak "lilt" ? 11:36
diakopter intonation, I meant. 11:38
masak ah
it's a bit of an art to convey intonation correctly over the webbernet, though 11:39
I sometimes cringe at people who use exclamation marks liberally
diakopter I guess for someone like me (who's not learned Japanese or similar) considers all intonation as sounding like a "lilt". :)
er, how'd that "for" creep into that sentence? 11:40
masak diakopter: not sure I follow. how does a "lilt" sound?
what's the best way today to generate an AST from p6 source? 11:41
diakopter I'm using it to mean several of these definitions: dictionary.reference.com/browse/lilt 11:42
lambdabot Title: lilt - Definitions from Dictionary.com
masak I just realised that this would be far superior to parsing test files directly in a script
diakopter: wow, there really is such a word. I thought you made it up, or borrowed it from some other language
diakopter heh... as if there are words that don't arise in those ways... ;) 11:43
masak diakopter: 'course, but in this particular case...
diakopter masak: the implication being that if I use such a word, there is such a word. 11:44
(I or anyone else)
masak diakopter: I'd agree, except there's still the extra authority of finding a word in a dictionary 11:45
that means at least two people have used it :)
hm, maybe I mean something like "authoricity" instead of "authority"
diakopter: you don't happen to know how to generate an AST from perl6 source, do you? 11:46
diakopter masak: Hey! Authoricity isn't a word! Someone already coined a term for your usage! ;) 11:47
masak diakopter: :)
diakopter (joking...)
masak yes
diakopter hmm, well, actually I was just studying pugs' src/ to find exactly that. 11:48
funny you ask
masak heh
diakopter: as long as you have a certain familiarity with src/, maybe you can answer some other questions ;)
where is string interpolation being done? I've looked, but turned up zilch 11:49
also, what's the difference between a an anon black and the common space outside all blocks? 11:51
(muddy question, maybe I need to clarify that)
it's pugs t/magicals/subname.t, the last test 11:52
it wants &?ROUTINE.name to be undef, and I can do that
diakopter looks for a long while
masak but right now it's '<anon>', and I need to test for something that distinguishes it from test #3, otherwise that will fail
masak loves discussing wanted features based on failing tests 11:53
diakopter masak: pronoun nominatives can disappear today because the imperative mood (implied 2nd person) has all but disappeared!
masak diakopter: yes, are right about that
er 11:54
I mean "nod"
(which could be imperative, but isn't)
diakopter LOL 11:55
"diakopter, yes, are right about that"
(I assume that was a typo)
masak diakopter: no, just testing writing w/o nominative pronouns 11:56
diakopter k; gotcha :D
polettix lol
masak it would have been a bit too coincidental to have been a typo, wouldn't it?
diakopter no.... I drop (random) all the time
masak ("gotcha" is fun too... it's the only time "you" is spelled "cha") 11:57
diakopter "whatcha" doing
masak ah, true
diakopter "captcha" this! ;)
masak no ;)
for one thing, "capt" is not a verb 11:58
diakopter lol; sorry, just taking the opportunity to exercise my visual word index. 11:59
masak diakopter++ # for exercising
diakopter k, so, gimme a while to research some of your questions. 12:00
masak you forgot "cha-cha" in that case
diakopter: sure
diakopter ... "k, so, " being a plea for tolerance of the forthcoming imperative verb (because otherwise someone might take it as a demand or command, as if I think I have authority or influence). Pray suffer me a time to research. 12:04
masak that's how I read it
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allbery_b the archaic meaning of "pray" is supplication; the modern equivalent is "please" 12:20
in modern English "pray" has all but lost its secular usage
masak likes the new linguistic touch to #perl6 12:21
diakopter but first, 'authoricity'. From the (extremely few) usages indexed by Google, it can denote "[intended or effective] authoritative-ness or definitive-ness"... is that your usage?
allbery_b (where's TreyHarris, he can probably give you a complete rundown on it... :)
masak diakopter: that's my usage
diakopter: "authority" felt like something else when I tried it 12:22
even if it can probably also be used to denote what "authoricity" denotes
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diakopter allbery_b: I was trying to be archaic, hence "suffer" for "allow" or "let me have". 12:25
albery_b: it sounded like you were correcting me, but now I'll assume you weren't. :) 12:29
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allbery_b no, I dropped in late and didn't spot any context in a quick scan of backscroll 12:36
what I did see implied someone trying to figure out unusual English usage so I tossed that in 12:37
diakopter ah. :) 12:40
msft is BSDish-licensing IronRuby's source...
oh, I'm behind the times. 12:41
masak diakopter: they are? cool. kudos to msft 12:43
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diakopter TextMate doesn't like audrey's nested .hs block comments 12:48
masak well, it's open source, isn't it? should be able to change 12:49
diakopter the syntax highlighting grammar is, yeah 12:51
masak yes. maybe not the editor itself
would be difficult to sell for money then
diakopter thoughtpolice: ping 12:52
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pugs_svnbot r17185 | diakopter++ | minor corrections; still haven't determined whether the draft Concurrency.POD should be linked from here... any suggestions, anyone? 13:23
diff: dev.pugscode.org/changeset/17185
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masak speaking of which, I'd like to remind anyone who has the required bits to change it, 13:32
that perlcabal.org/syn/ has a broken link
namely A07, dev.perl.org/perl6/doc/design/apo/A07.html
now I know the background of A07, and that it doesn't contain any essential text 13:33
but still, I think it's a shame that it gives a 404
the official docs of a product contribute to much of the initial impression about the product 13:34
and perlcabal.org/syn are as much official docs for perl6 as you can get
people will get the 404 and go "oh well, guess there's not enough people reading those docs to have noticed yet" 13:35
"guess there's not that much interest for perl6, then" 13:36
...which I think would be sad, when it's very easy to patch
masak winds down
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diakopter masak: is there an A07 anywhere? 14:32
masak I should think so
but it's very small
basically says that it didn't need to be written 14:33
because formats are not core anymore
I don't know where or if it can be found on the net
but I remember reading it at some point 14:34
and there's a (broken) link to it, but not to many of the other Axx
diakopter: how's it going with my questions? :) 14:36
don't want to rush you in any way, but I'm very curious 14:37
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diakopter masak: :P slowly... was afk for a while. building my new 1GB vps for slightly-more-private-than-feather development... www.vpsfarm.com/ 14:40
lambdabot Title: vpsFarm
masak diakopter: ok, don't let me slow you down further :P
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diakopter (a darn good deal if you ask me... and I've tried several vps companies - unixshell.com(1 too many lost-all-data crashes) prgmr.com(yikes! 3 too many lost-all-data crashes) and spry.com/vpslink.com (1 too many lost-all-data crashes). Haven't lost any from vpsfarm.com yet. 14:42
avar likes slicehost.com 14:43
masak agrees with the 'yikes', in general
diakopter haven't tried that one yet - it's always been somewhat more expensive than those others I mentioned. If vpsfarm fails me... I'll try slicehost next.
masak I haven't needed such solutions yet. diakopter, what do you use them for? 14:44
diakopter masak: clients/employers need commodity offsite backup locations (that are more customizable than the ASP offerings), email filtering/holding/hosting, vpn/proxy endpoints... and I like to toy around on them. it's like having vmware or parallels, except much easier (less laptop hdd intensive, I mean) to reload OS images while "learning" tricky system admin skills. :) 14:48
vpsfarm.com is the best I've seen, so far... and of course, by far, the cheapest. $40/month for 1GB ram and 5Mb/s throttled/unmetered. Oh, and I also use them for file distribution/hosting for clients/employers. 14:50
you don't get a VPS for the CPU... you get one for the memory and bandwidth. 14:51
masak ok
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diakopter btw, all those companies advertised RAID1/5 storage for their vps' filesystems. But in each case of failure, it was the RAID controller that failed, and the arrays couldn't be rebuilt on a replacement controller, either because "couldn't get an exact-model replacement in time" or "the dying controller ruined the array". 14:54
(so they said) 14:55
Juerd That's why I always use software raid.
BTW, my company has VPS'es too
See www.rootaccess.nl </spam>
diakopter so... for clients I get them in pairs, and make the vps host insist they're on distinct machines.
Juerd (We still haven't built a real site, because we're doing well enough without even) 14:56
diakopter Juerd: can you beat vpsfarm.com's prices?
Juerd I have no idea
I'm not interested in beating prices, to be honest.
No, I can't
diakopter Juerd: I will definitely let you know as soon as vpsfarm has a crash or goes out of business or something :) 14:57
RAID-10 in software?
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Juerd Yes. 14:59
moritz masak: do you still need an irc log solution?
masak moritz: yes. I've asked on #irclogger, but they have not responded yet
Juerd diakopter: I've stress tested that extensively and it works very well
We have great I/O on our servers 15:00
diakopter oh, interesting, it can even do RAID1+0ish on odd numbers of disks.
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moritz masak: my server is rebooting atm (new kernel or something), after that I can start logging 15:00
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Juerd diakopter: We use it on 4 disks, the old fashioned way 15:00
masak moritz: cool
moritz masak: if you have old logs (irssi or something), so can mail me and I'll try to parse and import them
masak moritz: I don't 15:01
not sure if Emacs' erc saves my logs, but it's nothing I've enabled
anyway, even if it does, it's not much and it doesn't really matter
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moritz allright, don't worry 15:02
masak ok
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diakopter @tell TimToady in case you missed the hilite.... perlDreamer?> TimToady: In S29, there are only 3 argument forms of substr defined. Does that mean that the 2 and 4 argument forms from perl5 do not exist in perl6, or that since they are unchanged they remain? 15:03
lambdabot Consider it noted.
moritz waits for his server to come up again 15:04
diakopter open question for all: remember we discussed funding Perl 6 work previously? Please help me get an idea of how much anyone here would "pledge" (commit to fund on a monthly-for-12-months or prepaid annual basis) if 200% matching funds to your pledges were promised. Would anyone here pledge, and how much. 15:07
in other words, some (possibly anonymous) benefactors promise to pledge $40/month for every $20/month that anyone pledges/commits. 15:08
masak senses an infinite loop there somewhere 15:09
diakopter (assuming full transparency and consensus for the identity, goals, and activities of the supported person, but not assuming US tax-deductible donations).
integral And what's the money used for? www.perlfoundation.org/parrot_grant_from_nlnet shows lots of unclaimed money for parrot 15:10
diakopter that anyone *else* pledges/commits.
moritz integral++ # that's my question as well
masak diakopter: that's better :)
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moritz diakopter: I think the microgrants took a long time to be consumed... 15:10
[particle] integral: that money is free for the taking. feel free to attack one of the milestones listed there
integral There's also TPF's microgrants, of which, only 4 have been allocated 15:11
[particle] moritz: there are still 5 microgrants that hasn't been consumed
moritz diakopter: and audreyt++ might want to get paid for pugs hacking, but not at the moment...
[particle]: good to know ;)
[particle] it'd be a shame to come out of conference season without any new microgrant proposals 15:12
diakopter [particle]: do you get to see the ones that are rejected? Have there been (m)any that were rejected? 15:14
[particle] diakopter: i don't get to see them, that's for jesse and leon. but i talked to jesse, and there haven't been many proposed 15:15
i'm not aware of any that have been rejected -- but there may have been a few
moritz the java2perl6 module that was mentioned earlier - is that the (intermediate) result of one of the micro grants? 15:17
diakopter seems to me that anyone who knows alot about the status of the project wouldn't propose something that would get rejected... so it makes sense that there haven't been (m)any rejected. I suppose an "outsider" could submit a non-serious proposal, though.
moritz aye 15:18
masak allright, gotta go 15:20
diakopter moritz: yeah, see perlfoundation.org/microgrants - Phil Crow...
masak see you all
diakopter masak: I'll be online in your morning
masak diakopter: good. see you then
moritz masak: see you ;) 15:21
masak moritz: yes. I'll be back sometime tonight
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moritz hopefully my server is back then ;) 15:22
diakopter moritz: regarding where the funding/matching funds would go - I hadn't thought about that, specifically. I was assuming consensus among the benefactors could be reached about that. I was more interested in finding out who would be willing to pledge the small amounts, if they knew that their small amounts would be multiplied by 3.
moritz diakopter: I'd be willing to donate a bit if I knew _in advance_ where it went... 15:23
diakopter: and given the fact that there _are_ unused funds (though not too much, I guess) that's the question that has to be answered first
diakopter oh, that's what I meant; sorry. The pledges would all be tentative, pending assignment/consensus. 15:24
moritz diakopter: but I do appreciate your effort
diakopter I'm not looking for "pledges" here on the channel, I'm just asking how much anyone would "consider" contributing.
moritz I think I'd donate up to 300$ once
you can divide that by 12 for your self ;) 15:25
diakopter heh
moritz ?eval ~ 300/12 15:26
diakopter um, evalbot is currently dead. 15:27
I, uh, was fixing it.... :( but...
gimme a second; thanks for the reminder.
moritz reminds evalbot to raise from the dead 15:29
diakopter I created a fresh .svk (2.0.2) mirror/local of pugs in the process, btw... someone should .bz2/post that somewhere.
I mean, b/c audreyt's .svk is ... in an unknown state of usability. 15:31
moritz and I should publish my git mirror
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moritz I first did it on my server, but the differnt versions of git-svn caused that not to update correctly :( 15:31
so I guess I'll just install a cron job on feather 15:32
diakopter oh... yeah... git-svn on feather is like, bleeding edge. 15:33
moritz 1.5.3~rc1-1 15:34
as opposed to on debian etch
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diakopter whoa; it actually worked. 15:41
?eval 300*3/12 # 25, duh 15:42
hm, well 15:43
(at least the revision number is correctly appearing now)
moritz ?eval 1 15:44
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diakopter tries again 15:44
boy..... it's slow to svk update -s ; svk info ; make clean ; make soon 15:52
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Juerd wonders when TPF will wire the money 15:56
I hope it'll happen before thursday, but probably not
I'll be gone for a week from friday afternoon
[particle] Juerd: i suggest you follow up with email. i've found that pestering helps speed things up 15:57
diakopter ?eval 1
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diakopter argh. 15:57
Juerd [particle]: Did that, obra helped too.
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obra [particle]: we're already fully pestering 16:13
[particle] great :) there are others waiting on tpf money, too 16:16
Juerd I wonder what is slowing this small organization down 16:20
Perhaps lack of tuits, perhaps fundamental problems. It's so opaque so we can only guess :|
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diakopter Juerd: it appears there is someone named as Treasurer, but who is Ex officio 16:25
Juerd Aha 16:27
Maybe phones would work
It's a relatively new invention that helps people communicate over arbitrary distance ;)
diakopter in realtime!!! :) 16:29
rgs in _constant_ time
diakopter rgs: thanks, yes.
SamB eh.
you guys didn't get very far in physics, did you?
Juerd rgs++ 16:31
SamB: Sufficiently arbitrary distance, then :)
amnesiac same SamB as ##C?
SamB yeah 16:32
Juerd It's not like the Treasurer is likely to be on another planet :)
amnesiac I see
same Juerd as ##perl? :P
Juerd There's a ##perl? Where?
diakopter SamB: that's kind of a snide remark. :/ Some people stop a course of education for reasons other than not being able to "get" further.
amnesiac at undernet
and dalnet!
Juerd I'm on undernet? Dalnet?
Could be :)
As far as I know, I'm the only Juerd who writes Perl.
There are a few other Juerds, but I've never seen anyone with this name do anything with Perl 16:33
amnesiac I'm the only Marco that writes Perl!
SamB diakopter: I meant, if they'd taken it they ought to remember that we don't know how to make things go faster than the speed of light
Juerd amnesiac: No :)
amnesiac Juerd, dang!
Juerd, well, the only mexican Marco
better? :P
Juerd Can't verify that :)
amnesiac :/
Juerd I think it's funny that approx 99% of all Google hits on "Juerd" are related to me. 16:34
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Juerd Yay for CPAN and its gazillion mirrors. 16:34
SamB diakopter: I wasn't trying to insult their intelligence
amnesiac with my name, Google shows my CPAN account too.
and all the stuff I've been into
(including drugs and pr0n movies) 16:35
Juerd diakopter: He didn't mention any reasons for stopping...
diakopter Juerd: not explicitly, no.
Juerd did not get very far in physics 16:38
I got far enough in Perl though
moritz is much further in physics than in perl
I which I knew my perl nearly as well as my physics ;)
Juerd I guess what I'm trying to say is that if that remark offended you, you might be a bit over sensitive 16:39
In my humble opinion, of course.
SamB or maybe I'm insensitive! 16:41
meppl gugu
SamB meppl: what you do that for?
diakopter Juerd: I got the message; I appreciate the sentiment. I was [and remain] unoffended, but I did find it annoying that SamB didn't read my mind and see that I said "realtime" when I meant "synchronous". 16:42
meppl good evening samb
SamB, just for greeting
diakopter :D
SamB heh
good, um, lunchtime ;-)
meppl bon appetit samb 16:43
moritz Juerd: the changeset r17181 changed index.html on www.pugscode.org 21 hours ago, and still isn't showing on the front page...
Juerd: could you please check if the synchronisation works? 16:44
or am I missing something stupid here?
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Juerd moritz: ENOTUIT 16:52
diakopter moritz: I'll look at it after the evalbot is fixed 16:53
I'm not sure what's wrong. it's setup nearly exactly the same way as it is in audreyt's tree.
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moritz ok 16:54
diakopter: does the no-autobuild evalbot work for you? 16:55
diakopter haven't tried running it without the wrapper. 16:56
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diakopter ?eval "I'm a bot" 17:00
moritz \"I'm a bot", Bool::True 17:01
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moritz ?eval 1 17:14
diakopter ahah 17:15
it's b/c multiple dispatch is broken.
(eye roll).
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diakopter ?eval 1 17:34
pugsbot_r17185 1
diakopter oh look, I can work around pugs' brokenness. ran across an interesting question, though... one minute... 17:35
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fglock hi 18:00
lambdabot fglock: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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diakopter fglock: hi 18:01
fglock diakopter: hey 18:02
obra hey fglock
how's life?
fglock I'm doing the tourist thing :) 18:03
obra nice
moritz_ where?
fglock and a bit of $work - I'm implementing a language-to-java translation - with several parts reusable for kp6 18:04
moritz_: Lisbon
obra what language? ;)
moritz_ fglock: cool ;) 18:05
fglock it's called "tea", but there seems to be several languages named like that
I'm finishing the type analysis
the grammar is written in Perl 6 18:06
moritz_ cool ;)
fglock ruoso is implementing the Java emitter 18:10
avar fglock: what $work allows you to hack p6?:) 18:11
ruoso actually I'm doing tree transformations in tea itself now...
refactoring the syntax tree
so that if { func(); func() } { then() } { else () } can be written more sanely in java 18:12
18:12 rindolf joined, dduncan joined
ruoso it would be nice if there was a way to manipulate the tree in a more readable way 18:13
fglock avar: it's a code base migration - we are the R&D crew :)
ruoso I think that applies to kp6, don't it fglock?
currently the tree transformation is weird Perl 5 code
rindolf ruoso: what is kp6, BTW?
ruoso kinda-perl-6 18:14
a subset of Perl 6 and a supper set of mini-perl-6
fglock hmm - we could have a tree transformation library, or a tree transformation language