pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | ?eval [~] <m oo se> | We do Haskell, too | > reverse . show $ foldl1 (*) [1..4] | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by diakopter on 11 July 2007.
cj rafb.net/p/6Dtmx222.html 00:05
lambdabot Title: Nopaste - No description
cj woe
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cj where is U16_FWD_N_UNSAFE defined? 00:06
looks like it's defined by parrot... 00:07
cj rings the "someone broke the parrot build" bell and turns on the spinny light 00:11
dlocaus: was it you?
dlocaus cj: sorry, don't work on parrot, just kp6 00:12
cj so kay. I want to pin an "I broke the build" pin on someone :) 00:15
dlocaus :)
allbery_b svn blame? :) 00:20
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cj I was just going to 'svn up -r PREV' a few times 00:22
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cj 23489 seems to work 00:45
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Tene no svn-bisect? 00:56
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Tene So, Perl 6-ish way to get a "deep copy" of an arbitrary data structure? 01:06
TimToady how "deep" is "deep"? 01:08
do you care if it becomes immutable? 01:09
do you care if any parts of it no longer refer to what they referred to before?
Tene Do you have a variety of convenient options for the different answers?
TimToady some bits of it are more convenient than others... :) 01:10
Tene If it has to be done manually, I can work something out myself to do it however I like.
I'm curious about builtins and such. 01:11
Having trouble finding relevant hits on 'copy' and 'clone' in the specs.
TimToady well, underlying all the "cmp" semantics is the assumption that there is some way to canonicalize, with various freeze/thaw associations
so doubtless there's some way to get at that someday
without perhaps going to the trouble of .freeze.thaw
but I don't think we've named it 01:12
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TimToady clone is likely to be "one level down", as in "clone this object but not what it refers to" 01:12
Tene *nod*
TimToady immutable objects, of course, there's no differece, just copy the reference3
and let the GC sort it out later :) 01:13
but basically, deep cloning is breaking all identity that isn't actual data... 01:14
which is the essential difference in meaning between eqv and === 01:15
=== is about identity, while eqv is about anti-identity
meppl good night
cj no, I'm wong that revision didn't work 01:17
TimToady I oversimplify, of course, since cloning should maintain internal identity relationships
cj TimToady: you familiar w/miniparrot? 01:18
TimToady nope
just as, if you freeze a tree of objects and then thaw it, you should get back the tree (only a different tree). 01:19
cj d'oh. I thought you were omniscient!
TimToady still remembering my kiboizing days, are you?
cj my dictionary doesn't even know what that means! 01:20
TimToady I'll bet google can find "kiboize" 01:21
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cj cute 01:22
kiboze v. [Usenet] To {grep} the Usenet news for a string
I've been known to do that from time to time, too... 01:23
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cj but not so much these days, what with carrying the xrl.us/bcfkv around 01:27
lambdabot Title: PA111421.JPG on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
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TimToady wow, burned out all my cute circuits in an instant! 01:32
cj yay!
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clkao win 02:00
TimToady I plan to... 02:03
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neuromu_ has anyone here read the new edition of APUE? 02:55
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TimToady Arctic Penguins Über Europe? 03:01
s/A/Anta/
American People Understand English? 03:03
Apple Pie Undergoes Eugenics? 03:04
neuromu_ :D trying to save power by not using too many letters
TimToady Advanced Perl-User Engineering? 03:05
neuromu_ closer 03:06
TimToady Anthropic Principle Used Egregiously
neuromu_ Anarchic Program Utterance Engine 03:09
TimToady darn it, my wife just googled it... 03:10
neuromu_ no I was referring to the late W Richard Stevens book, updated by Steven Rago
s/v/ph/
TimToady bbl & 03:13
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pmurias @tell dlocaus file in KindaPerl6::Runtime::Perl6 are compiled by kp6 (script/kp6) not mp6 09:54
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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fglock obra: pong 10:33
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nwc10 where are the !!! ??? and ... operators documented? 10:51
moritz_ in Operator.pod 10:53
aka S03
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lichtkind moritz_: nicht in der subroutine pod? 10:56
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nwc10 ah yes. 10:57
but not in apocalypse 3 10:58
it's new, so I looked in the apocalypses :-)
moritz_ lichtkind: !!! occurs in S03, S06 and once in S02
nwc10: they are superseeded in large parts, so you should always consult the synopsis 10:59
nwc10 thanks 11:00
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lichtkind seen: audreyt 11:15
:seen audreyt
!seen audreyt
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moritz_ @seen audreyt 11:17
lambdabot audreyt is in #haskell and #ghc. I don't know when audreyt last spoke.
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fglock hmm - removing code blocks from the grammar makes the perl5rx work 12:30
s/perl5rx/perl5rx backend/ 12:31
moritz_ fglock: did you read my p5p post and the answers? 12:32
fglock looking
moritz_ If it's doing something complex within an RE eval (especially if it 12:33
involves cloning anon subs), then I'm not suprised that something broke.
(?{...}) is still totally borked as far as pads and closures go. Still on
my list of things...
from Dave Mitchell
www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5....31339.html # only Nicholas' answer so far, Dave's isn't HTMLed yet, it seems 12:35
lambdabot Title: Re: Segmentation faults in blead perl (r32579) - nntp.perl.org, tinyurl.com/2brwrz
fglock I'm now looking for an alternative implementation 12:36
removing the closures did fix the problem, but this also removes BEGIN 12:37
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ting_ tinyurl.com/2brwrz 12:50
lambdabot Title: Re: Segmentation faults in blead perl (r32579) - nntp.perl.org
fglock it's possible to remove lots of anon subs, but the Pad structure still depends heavily on closures
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nothingmuch @seen pmurias 14:21
lambdabot I saw pmurias leaving #perl6 3h 34m 21s ago, and .
nothingmuch @tell pmurias message back re email 14:22
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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pugs_svn r19065 | fglock++ | [MiniPerl6] implemented make() 15:07
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pmurias nothingmuch: pong 15:42
lambdabot pmurias: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
pmurias fglock: the Pads could be replaced by scopes 15:47
* Scopes
fglock pmurias: yes, but we need to implement Closure first 15:48
which is a bit hard
pmurias fglock: why is it hard? 15:50
pugs_svn r19066 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5] started make() implementation 15:51
fglock you need to detect which variables are used in the block, and then do the Closure object with it's Scope 15:52
we need it for kp6-in-C, anyway 15:53
pmurias i thought it $scope_level_3 = Scope.new(outer=>$scope_level_2); at the start of each block 15:54
* it is
fglock you need to create the Scope when you instantiate the Code object, well before .APPLY is called 15:56
so that you can have Code parameters 15:57
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fglock what is the purpose of ExtractRuleBlock? it seems to be messing up the scope of make() 16:01
pmurias it splits code blocks as seperate methods 16:02
so they don't have to be serialised and reparsed by Token 16:04
pugs_svn r19067 | pmurias++ | [kp6] a proposal how code could be translated to use Scope 16:05
pmurias fglock: is there anything wrong with the approach i suggest in the commit? 16:06
besides performance
fglock looking
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fglock the "a" in the inner scope must be a clone of the outer "a", 16:12
try this: print foo()->(),"\n";
it will print "1" every time
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pmurias fglock: the perl5 version print 2,3,4 16:14
* prints
pugs_svn r19068 | fglock++ | [kp6] executable scope example 16:16
fglock it works here, please see last commit
one sec, I'll change it a bit 16:17
pmurias fglock: i get it
(the script dosn't work though) 16:18
pugs_svn r19069 | fglock++ | [kp6] fixed last commit
fglock pmurias: I think you are right
I fixed the script 16:19
pmurias should script/kp6 misc/scope_proposal.p6 work? 16:20
fglock sorry, I thought it was perl5 code
pmurias fglock: no problem 16:21
fglock perl misc/...
pmurias fglock: it returns 42 if my is moved into the sub
fglock that's because it is using the newly created "my $a" 16:22
pmurias fglock: yes 16:23
fglock: the scope can be created at APPLY time 16:25
fglock pmurias: you need to allow for INIT blocks 16:26
which happen before APPLY
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pmurias fglock: can INIT blocks set lexical variables? 16:29
fglock yes
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pmurias fglock: maybe runtime Scopes and compile Scopes are seperate? 16:30
fglock they are the same - BEGIN can also set lexicals 16:31
$ perl -e 'my $x; INIT{ $x=42 }; print "$x\n"; '
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pmurias fglock: i view the setting of lexicals at BEGIN time as setting defaults 16:35
pugs_svn r19070 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5] workaround ExtractRuleBlock for make() 16:36
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fglock $ perl -e 'use strict; sub s1 { my $x; INIT{ $x=42 }; print "> $x\n"; } s1(); s1(); print "done\n"; ' 16:38
pmurias eval: use strict; sub s1 { my $x; INIT{ $x=42 }; print "> $x\n"; } s1(); s1(); print "done\n" 16:40
moritz_ no buubot, it seems
pmurias $ perl -e 'use strict; sub s1 { my $x=7; INIT{ $x=42 }; print "> $x\n"; } s1(); s1(); print "done\n"; 16:41
fglock $x=7 happens at apply time (later than INIT) 16:46
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pugs_svn r19071 | fglock++ | [kp6] s/return/make/ in regex tests 16:57
Lorn fglock: i try to mount a Makefile.PL that install all modules for KindaPerl6 17:06
fglock: like "install v6-alpha" from cpan :P
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Lorn fglock: i have some problems to install it :P 17:06
fglock Lorn: kp6 does have a cpan distro, did you try that? 17:07
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pmurias Lorn: you mean you tired perl Makefile.pl;make;make install? 17:08
pugs_svn r19072 | fglock++ | [kp6] s/return/make/ in the Grammar 17:09
Lorn fglock: yes, i checkout in a new linux install
pmurias: yes, i want to do this for the KindaPerl6 module 17:11
the pugs/trunk/ have a Makefile.PL but that need ghc
fglock you might need to fix Makefile.PL, it has mostly been used for building kp6, but nobody is using it for installing yet
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fglock pugs/trunk/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/Makefile.PL 17:12
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fglock Lorn: "make install" is untested 17:13
Lorn fglock: i done the checkout here, and does not exists this file
fglock Lorn: if defined( $GLOBAL::_REGEX_RETURN_ ) {
oops
svn.pugscode.org/pugs/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/ 17:14
lambdabot Title: Revision 19072: /v6/v6-KindaPerl6
Lorn fglock: ops
fglock: i did from svn.perl.org/perl6/ :P
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Lorn the mirror of pugscode in perl.org seems not sync ... 17:17
fglock: the kp6 compile , after make, is on blib/script ? 17:20
fglock not sure, but you can touch some files and see how it recompiles 17:22
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Lorn fglock: well, the hello.pl compiles with blib/script/kp6 17:23
moritz_ Lorn: if you want to compile and execute a script, use ./script/kp6 17:24
it has some POD documentation as well 17:25
Lorn moritz_: works for me when i execute from pugs/v6/v6-KindaPerl6/
moritz_ that's how you're supposed to use it, yes ;) 17:28
pugs_svn r19073 | fglock++ | [kp6-perl5rx] implemented make() 17:31
Lorn how i compile .p6 files? 17:34
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pugs_svn r19074 | fglock++ | [kp5-perl5rx] code blocks inside regexes no longer create anon subs 17:37
fglock $ perl script/kp6 -e ' say "hi, Lorn!" ' 17:38
Lorn fglock: i was talking about examples/*.p6
fglock better start with t/kp6/* 17:39
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fglock perl script/kp6 t/kp6/... 17:39
Lorn fglock: ok, thanks
fglock recompiling KP6-BOOT with the new perl5rx... 17:41
Lorn: there are several command line switches, see the POD in script/kp6 17:42
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pugs_svn r19075 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] recompiled with new perl5rx backend; test now #7 hangs 17:47
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fglock i mean - "test #7 now hangs" 17:47
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pugs_svn r19076 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] fixed make() 17:55
fglock "ok 11" - no segfault here :)
moritz_ make is the return in regex, right?
fglock yes
moritz_: would you test it again? 17:56
moritz_ fglock: I'm at it right now ;)
fglock test #12 fails, that's ok
moritz_ works both with 5.8.8 and 5.10.0!
fglock++
perl++
world++
fglock yay!
DarkWolf84 perl 5.10 ? 17:59
is it ready yet
rgs RC3 soon, likely to be the last one
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fglock the workaround was to avoid creating anon subs inside regexes 18:00
nothingmuch /w 18 18:02
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fglock moritz_: thanks for asking p5p support - that helped a lot 18:04
moritz_ fglock: you're welcome 18:05
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moritz_ I'll probably migrate the irclog database in the next 30minutes, so irc logging and the websites might be unavailable for a while 18:13
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obra fglock: are you going to fosdem? 18:15
fglock obra: have a link? 18:16
obra fosdem.org
pmichaud is going.
fglock cool - looking
obra he could potentially meet up for a hackathon with you elsewhere around that time too
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obra but it seems like now that p6/parrot is largely being written in nqp (with only a tiny bit of calling out to P*), there will be more opportunity than ever to collaborate. 18:17
and, well, having two competing implementations of perl6 in perl 6 is kind of crazy ;)
[particle] is currently converting punie to nqp-based
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obra [particle]: EXCELLENT 18:18
[particle]: is there a branch I can svn up to wathc progress?
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[particle] sure, svn.perl.org/parrot/branches/punie-devel 18:18
lambdabot Title: Revision 23543: /branches/punie-devel
fglock the non-perl6 part of kp6 is getting smaller each day :) 18:19
[particle] or you can subscribe to the svn commit rss feed
fglock++
obra fglock: very cool
fglock obra: it's probably too late to get sponsoring, but I'll take a look
moritz_ logging is back, a few lines went to /dev/null, though
obra fglock: pmichaud said he can change flights if nessecary 18:20
fglock obra: kp6-bootstrapped is now working on perl5 regexes, which should be quite faster
obra very nice
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fglock a hackathon in Lisbon would be great :) 18:20
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obra I'll be sure to mention it 18:21
[particle]: you branch all of parrot for work on one language dir?
[particle] no, i branched parrot, then svn switch inside languages/punie
it's possible, however unlikely, that i'll need to modify the compiler toolkit, so i'd rather be safe and branch the whole repo 18:22
so, to watch, you can cd languages/punie && svn switch svn.perl.org/parrot/branches/punie-...ages/punie 18:23
lambdabot Title: Revision 23543: /branches/punie-devel/languages/punie
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dlocaus hello! 18:25
lambdabot dlocaus: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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moritz_ hi dlocaus 18:28
dlocaus my hard drive is still out, it got "imaged" 99% yesterday, and I'll find out sometime between 3-4 today if there are any results... 18:31
is there anything you guys want documented & reformated? 18:32
moritz_ good luck!
dlocaus moritz_: :), yes... I hope so.
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dlocaus I'm thinking about getting an rsync.net account. But, G-Storable (google drives) may be coming out soon. 18:33
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fglock obra: i sent a note to $boss - let's see 18:35
dlocaus fglock: is there anything that would be worht documenting?
obra fglock: excellent.
dlocaus: maybe a new tutorial? 18:36
dlocaus fglock: my (linux) harddrive is still out for repairs
obra: a tutorial containing what?
obra or improving the current "intro to kp6" docs?
"how to get it running and start improving it" is my usual hobby horse ;)
dlocaus obra: humm, well, some of kp6 will be going by the way side once onion gets going. 18:37
obra: and I've been a bit heistant about getting it to run and everything, because I don't have a linux box (something to run make against) to test what I write against what works :)
[particle] see feather. 18:38
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dlocaus obra: I've begun a beginners guide containning some of the stuff I've run into... 18:39
dev.pugscode.org/browser/v6/v6-Kind...guide.html
lambdabot Title: /v6/v6-KindaPerl6/docs/beginners-guide.html - Pugs - Trac, tinyurl.com/392x43
fglock dlocaus: re compilation language,
the files in Runtime/Perl6/ are compiled by kp6 itself,
all other Perl 6 files are currently compiled by mp6
"bootstrapping" means we will be able to compile those files with kp6 too
dlocaus fglock: pmuaris said the same thing too, but I remember that "make forcerecompile" compiled some files around that area. 18:40
and make used mp6.pl to do it.
I've added it to my local todo list to check it out once I get my linux box up and going
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dlocaus stupid harddrive. - cries. 18:41
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Lorn fglock: kp6 works fine, and i dont need to install any cpan module :) 18:41
t/kp6/ its cool too
fglock script/kp6 is used for Runtime/Perl6/*, and mp6 is used elsewhere 18:43
the KP6-BOOT target uses script/kp6 for everything
pugs_svn r19077 | dlo++ | [kp6] updated documentation. Mostly clarification and minor corrections. 18:47
fglock Lorn: :) 18:54
pugs_svn r19078 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] added debugging info for failing test 19:03
r19079 | dlo++ | [kp6] Cleaned up formatting. 19:06
r19080 | dlo++ | [kp6] always just one more little change... 19:07
dlocaus @seen dlo 19:08
lambdabot I haven't seen dlo.
fglock dlo is away, he had a hardware problem 19:14
[particle] :)
dlocaus :) 19:15
I've still got my trusty windows box :)
obra: is there an existing guide for "kp6" that I should update?
[particle] yes, compared to the software, that hardware is *stable*
moritz_ cursed his hardware again and again in the last few weeks 19:16
is there nothing better to run software on?
something that's cheep and works?
dlocaus your brain... it runs on carrots!
moritz_ dlocaus: but that's no Von Neumann architecture 19:17
dlocaus has an active life cycle of 75 years, 85 if you treat it right.
obra dlocaus: I'm sadly not the right person to answer that :/
dlocaus obra: humm ok.
obra I know that fglock has blogged an intro before to the pugs blog
it may make sense to grab that, commit and update it
dlocaus obra: do you know where it is? 19:18
fglock scratches head
moritz_ if there is one, you can find it here: pugs.blogs.com/pugs/ 19:19
lambdabot Title: Pugs
dlocaus moritz_: the human brain is most certainly Von Neumann... a von Neumann probe! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_Probe
lambdabot Title: Self-replicating spacecraft - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
pugs_svn r19081 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] yet more tracing 19:22
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dlocaus moritz_: I think fglock's intro has passed into the /dev/null. 19:23
moritz_ if there ever was one
fglock I think the most early doc is docs/ANNOUNCE 19:24
and the less readable docs/kindaperl6-spec.pod 19:26
pugs_svn r19082 | dlo++ | [kp6] minor update, perl 5.10rc2 works with kp6. 19:27
dlocaus reading these docs. 19:31
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dlocaus brb & 19:32
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pugs_svn r19083 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] recompiled Signature.pm; a bug was moved away 19:36
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dlocaus fglock: should I move the biggers guide into FAQ.pod? 19:39
doesn't quite seam to be the right place for it 19:40
[particle] why not something like docs/beginners_guide.pod ?? 19:41
dlocaus [particle]: html gives me a lot more formating control
fglock i'm ok
dlocaus fglock: ?
[particle] ah, well .html, then :)
fglock please do 19:42
dlocaus fglock: ok
fglock: do you want me to change FAQ.pod into FAQ.html?
fglock sure
moritz_ dlocaus: I think there's no need
you can use pod2html or something if you want html
fglock and you can use a css for formatting 19:43
dlocaus pod2html supports css?
ah, not in the manner I want. 19:44
/I want/I was thinking of/
moritz_: why do you perfer pod over html? 19:45
moritz_ dlocaus: it's better suited for documentation, I guess 19:47
dlocaus: it's less overhead, and has everything you need
dlocaus humm, well, I'll convert FAQ.pod into pod format, and then see how it lokos 19:48
looks
pugs_svn r19084 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] compilation update 19:51
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pugs_svn r19085 | fglock++ | [kp6-kp6] added some tracing for current bug 20:23
fglock Lisbon-pm meeting &
moritz_ fglock: have fun ;)
pugs_svn r19086 | dlo++ | [kp6] First pass. Converted the text documentation (a brain dump) into Perl POD format. I have also cleaned up the wording. 20:25
lichtkind fglock: hello is there something you want to tell me about kp6 or v6 if not i have some questions 20:28
Lorn lichtkind: test the tests :P
pugs_svn r19087 | dlo++ | [kp6] bookmarks.html was moved into FAQ.pod
lichtkind Lorn: i dont understand
Lorn lichtkind: if you are new, like me, run the tests from the t/ directory 20:29
ops
t/kp6/
moritz_ lichtkind: I can try ;)
lichtkind fglock: you can even edit my texts und www.perlfoundation.org/perl6/index....al_history where im building an english mirror
lambdabot Title: Tutorial History / Perl 6 20:30
pugs_svn r19088 | dlo++ | [kp6] Removed link to bookmarks.html
lichtkind Lorn: do it was about some things slavio told me last time
Lorn lichtkind: ah, sorry 20:31
lichtkind Lorn: no problem 20:32
dlocaus what is redsix?
never mind, I found it 20:36
is also known as abrevated as: AKA? a.k.a. or A.K.A.? 20:40
Do non-english speakers know what that abreviation stands for?
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moritz_ I'd write aka 20:41
(but I'm not a native speaker)
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dlocaus cool, that's the answer I was looking for 20:41
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dlocaus moritz_: KindaPerl6 is hosted on pugscode.org, where is pugs hosted at? 20:42
The Haskell interpitation
moritz_ dlocaus: on pugscode.org ;-) 20:43
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dlocaus dev.pugscode.org/browser where? 20:43
lambdabot Title: / - Pugs - Trac
dlocaus or is the root?
moritz_ it's the root 20:44
if you type "perl Makefile.PL; make", then pugs will be build
dlocaus ah ok
moritz_
.oO( if you have a whole lot of dependencies installed ,)
pugs_svn r19089 | dlo++ | [kp6] Another pass over the documentation. 20:47
dlocaus urk! my brain just overheated. I'm going for a dog walk, back in 20m & 20:49
ewww its raining 20:50
back to documetation clean up
moritz_ lol
dlocaus moritz_: do you have any thoughts on the FAQ.pod?
moritz_ dlocaus: haven't read it yet, I was reading the new state of the onion ;)
dlocaus moritz_: if you can, look at the FGLOCK questions...
the new state of the onion? 20:51
moritz_ dlocaus: www.perl.com/pub/a/2007/12/06/soto-11.html
lambdabot Title: perl.com: Programming is Hard, Let's Go Scripting...
moritz_ dlocaus: looks good, so far 20:53
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dlocaus "We've also seen the rise of PHP, which takes the worse-is-better approach to dazzling new depths" 20:55
ha ha
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pugs_svn r19090 | moritz++ | [kp6] a few clarifications in FAQ.pod 21:13
r19091 | dlo++ | [kp6] Another pass. 21:15
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dlocaus lunch & 21:15
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dlocaus it stopped raining, dog walk & 21:36
stupid weather. 21:45
pugs_svn r19092 | pmurias++ | [kp6] small changes to FAQ 21:52
r19093 | dlo++ | [kp6] merged beginners-guide.html into FAQ.pod 21:59
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pugs_svn r19094 | dlo++ | [kp6] Minor documentation changes. 22:55
dlocaus moritz_: can you think of anything else that should be documented? -remember my linux box HD is being repaired.
moritz_ moritz_: not right now 22:56
dlocaus humm, ok 22:59
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