pugscode.org/ | nopaste: sial.org/pbot/perl6 | pugs: [~] <m oo se> (or rakudo:, kp6:, elf: etc.) (or perl6: for all) | irclog: irc.pugscode.org/
Set by Tene on 29 July 2008.
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speckbot r14588 | larry++ | Added ~ twiddle macro to make it easier to write bracketing constructs. 01:16
pmichaud AIIIIIIIIIE!!!!! 01:27
that said, ~ (twiddle) is wicked cool, too.
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mncharity notes the specbot links at the top of irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2008-10-06 , to www.perlcabal.org/svn/p6spec/revision?rev=14586 and www.perlcabal.org/svn/p6spec/revision?rev=14587 , yield blank pages. 02:06
lambdabot Title: IRC log for #perl6, 2008-10-06 02:07
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mncharity A curiousity: feather.perl6.nl/syn/S06.html#Flatt...ment_lists says "The | operator flattens lazily -- the array is flattened only if flattening is actually required within the subroutine.". However, it's not just the routine which needs the arguments, the multimethod dispatcher needs them too. So the sentence seems incorrect? And the necessary behavior/spec, more complex. 02:18
lambdabot Title: S06
mncharity Hmm. Though... I guess the mmd dispatcher could count as "within the subroutine". ok, nm. 02:19
@tell wayland76 apropos testrole, elf likely currently supports multi infix:<==>. fyi. 02:30
lambdabot Consider it noted.
mncharity @tell masak re "elf--, rakudo-- # that's just stupid :)", re "my $x; say $x.defined", I've added class Any { method defined { defined(self) } } to misc/elf/elf_h_src/Prelude.pm. Extending the elf prelude is easy. Contributions welcome. 02:49
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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pugs_svn r22521 | putter++ | [elf_h] Startup (main) refactored to make Elf derivatives easier. Fixed elf code bugs: missing required arguments; object fields accessed as hash. Added list argument recognition (for on_sbcl). 03:15
r22522 | putter++ | [elfish/on_sbcl] elfcl runs fib. 03:28
mncharity departing footsteps echo in the empty chamber 03:31
night shift out. cheers. &
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dduncan I have a grammar question 05:45
concerning repetition by separator, eg: 'foo' ** ',' ... 05:46
I know from S05 that that pattern will match one or more occurrances of 'foo' that are separated by commas ... 05:47
my first question is, will that pattern also match zero occurrances?
also, what is the best way to say, repeat by the separator but that there must be at least or at most N matches? 05:49
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moritz_ dduncan: I don't think you can add counts to **, so you have to fall back to 'foo' [',' 'foo']**2..10 07:30
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dduncan moritz_ okay, but my main question, can 'foo' ** ',' match zero occurrances of 'foo', or only 1+? 07:50
that's what I want to know the most
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pugs_svn r22523 | pmurias++ | [smop] converted s1p_lexicalscope to RI, and extended the RI language to make it work 07:52
moritz_ dduncan: I think it has to match the atom on the left at least once 07:56
dduncan: not 100% sure though
dduncan I'll look at S05 again, and if I can't find a definitive answer, I'll ask on p6l
pmurias dduncan: what's the state of Muldis? 07:57
moritz_ "If you supply any other atom (which may be quantified), it is interpreted as a separator (such as an infix operator), and the initial item is quantified by the number of times the separator is seen between items:" 07:58
dduncan the language spec is 95% done, the reference implementation about 10% done
moritz_ and then <ident> ** ',' matches 'foo'
where it's quantified by zero commas
and it matches 'foo,bar' where it's quantified by one comma 07:59
so I guess to match the empty string you'd need -1 commas ;-)
dduncan moritz_ I was under the impression that the commas were just a means of saying that you want to match a bunch of 'foo'
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dduncan say we want to match a list of items, but the list might be empty, and the whole list is delimited by brackets 08:00
moritz_ right, but that's not how I read the specs 08:01
dduncan now, if the ** syntax in question always matches at least 1 foo, then I would qualify a zero or more list by grouping the whole thing with a []?
which is fine 08:02
but if the syntax can match zero or more, I would wonder how to say I want at least 1
eg, the distinction between * and +
moritz_ call that *+ ;-) 08:03
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dduncan pmurias, so as I said, 95% and 10% ... this next day or 2 I've been focusing on improving the actual grammar (the 'Tiny' dialects), including adding specific syntax for routine and type declarations, so people can write those in a manner like a normal programming language, rather than having to write those indirectly by way of data literals (which the compiler turns the former into) 08:08
the new version, of PTMD_Tiny at least, would also lend itself much better to support by text editors for syntax coloring and function extraction 08:09
I've also been working on a textless language module for BBEdit that would take advantage of taht 08:10
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meppl good morning 08:49
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barney chromatic++ for www.reddit.com/r/programming/commen...q_eqv_and/ 09:01
lambdabot Title: Perl 6 offers no less than eq, ==, eqv, ===, =:=, and ~~ : programming, tinyurl.com/3zvpby
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moritz_ thinks about a macro prefix:<> is parsed { S+ } { "$_" } 12:32
then you could write (escaped) bareword URLs ;)
presumably even with check for well-formedness at compile time ;) 12:33
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masak moritz_: neat, but why? :) 12:43
lambdabot masak: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
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moritz_ masak: because we can? 12:45
masak @tell mncharity tell mncharity re method defined: cool, re contributions to elf: I'll keep that in mind
lambdabot Consider it noted.
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masak moritz_: yes, I saw that reason. I was wondering if you had any deeper use for it. also, I thought Perl 6 was sort of moving away from barewords... :) 12:52
moritz_ masak: then don't call it "bareword". It's an elaborate quoting construct, of which Perl 6 has more than perl 5 ;) 12:53
masak aah.
masak sees it now
great! carry on. 12:54
moritz_ I think the actual use is very little, but it's a nice proof-of-concept of what macros can do 12:55
masak aye. 12:56
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rakudo_svn r31750 | pmichaud++ | [rakudo]: spectest-progress.csv update: 205 files, 4363 passing, 74 failing 13:11
moritz_ wow, google has indexed S11 from perlcabal.org 13:23
a slightly more permissive robots.txt is very helpful ;) 13:24
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TimToady that would be term:<> 14:00
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moritz_ token term:<> { <sym> \S+ }; # like this? 14:04
or can you declare macro term:... ? 14:05
TimToady macro term:<> is parsed / <sym> \S+ / 14:07
but if token it must be term:sym<> instead
the name of the rule is distinguished from the name of the operator 14:08
inside the grammar, term:<> would be the operator that the grammar is using, not the one it's parsing 14:09
we must make this distinction or we can't parse P6 using P6
masak 's head spins 14:10
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TimToady @tell dduncan yes, you must use []? currrently to get 0 instances of <foo> ** ',' 14:10
lambdabot Consider it noted.
moritz_
.oO( maybe we need #perl6-for-dummies )
masak moritz_: oh yes, pretty please! I would be there all the time. 14:11
TimToady just cargo cult the rules in STD.pm and you should be fine :)
I'm about to check in the version of STD that uses the new '(' ~ ')' <expr> notation, but still have a few bugs 14:12
where it currently has all those ugly <in:...> calls
moritz_ hasn't quite understood that either
masak neither 14:13
TimToady which I want to get rid of because it fills the AST with "in" nodes that are relatively useless
moritz_ does ~ only counts nesting constructs that are matched by other rules that use ~ ? 14:14
TimToady the ~ is actually a kind of parser combinator I stole from Haskell, where it's called 'between" iirc
on first inspection it merele rewrites <a> ~ <b> <c> to <a> <c> <b> 14:15
masak why would one want that? 14:16
TimToady but the reason to pull <b> out front in the notation is because you're really setting up the final goal
and it's very important to know the goal in order to know when to quit
and in the absence of finding the goal, what the correct error message is 14:17
masak hm. so this helps in generating better error messages?
TimToady yes
masak that's good.
TimToady as well as passing the terminator down to the intermediate rule 14:18
masak ooh
TimToady in the error messages in the new bit of S05 text, you'll see that it was complaining that it couldn't find ']'
that's the goal that was specified by the ~ 14:19
moritz_ so <c> somhow knows that it expects a <b> as the terminator?
and if so, how?
TimToady yes, in fact STD currently sets $+GOAL as a context var
masak starts to see the uses of this
TimToady you can also read ~ as "before b find a c" 14:20
but there's also the readability issue of putting the two brackets right next to each other
and in a visually parallel construct, which <in:> isn't 14:21
nor was the old form with '(' <EXPR> [ ')' || fail ]
moritz_ aye, that was a real cludge
TimToady '(' ~ ')' <EXPR> is much clearer 14:22
masak yes, and it packages a common idiom, too
TimToady++
TimToady well, stole it from Haskell
specifically, parsec
masak Parsec++, too
TimToady the one thing that bugs me is that it still isn't really a combinator in the haskellian sense 14:23
it's really only a macro
but we don't have an easy notation for first class chunks of pattern
masak maybe that's next :) 14:24
TimToady when we do, perhaps ~ will be defined in terms of it
moritz_ and I thought S05 was pretty stable
TimToady it's just something I wanted while trying to clean up STD
masak TimToady: speaking of grammars, if I thought long and hard on how to connect {*} in a particular grammar to a particular class, and then wrote to p6l about it, would there be a chance such a feature could be added to Perl 6? 14:25
TimToady um, I'm already doing it
look at viv
masak viv?
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moritz_ gimme5 that uses STD 14:25
TimToady the vi-to-v translator that will replace gimme5 14:26
masak that's good news
moritz_ (if I remeber the commit message correctly)
TimToady: any thoughts on www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6....29636.html ?
masak is that written in Perl 6?
lambdabot Title: [PATCH] How to match against a grammar - nntp.perl.org, tinyurl.com/4rcksm
TimToady not yet
masak TimToady: then does it really count?
moritz_ ah well, it's not pressing
TimToady not yet
ruoso hi!
TimToady not yet!
moritz_ ;) 14:27
masak I mean, is there a strategy for how to syntactically connect a grammar and a class in Perl 6?
not yet... :/
that's what I was planning to propoe
propose*
TimToady all I do currently is set a context var to the class or object I want to call reduction actions in. 14:28
with a name constructed from the {*} tag
that seems quite general
masak TimToady: a context var in the grammar?
TimToady a context var set in the code calling the grammar 14:29
again, see viv
masak oki
TimToady a context var in Perl 5 looks like $::ACTIONS because it's just emulated with local
masak ah.
pugs_svn r22524 | moritz++ | vim modeline for viv
TimToady ruoso: btw I am seriously considering merging $+foo with $*foo now 14:30
masak actually, the end goal would be not to have to write tree traversal code in a class that uses a grammar
ruoso TimToady, with or without falling back?
TimToady with considering GLOBAL to automatically be contextual unless declared otherwise 14:31
ruoso ok, so the global variables declared by the prelude are visible as contextual 14:32
TimToady yes, by and large, haven't thought about whether I want any exceptions
ruoso as opposed to having the contextual lookup falling back to global lookup 14:33
TimToady well, depends on whether you just count GLOBAL as outermost lexical
(well, unless there's PROCESS, which is outside GLOBAL)
but the context lookup might not even know it's getting into a symbol table that is also considered a top-level package 14:34
so not "fallback" in the cognitive sense, at least 14:35
ruoso I wasn't planning GLOBAL to be the outermost lexical
I was planning "prelude" to be the outermost lexical
and "prelude" "use" the builtin
TimToady maybe prelude can set up more than one level of outer lexical...hmm... 14:36
down 18 levels of brackets, we find a little call to the insert_user_code_here() macro... 14:37
and maybe prelude is really wrapper
so it's also postlude
ruoso oh... wait... 14:38
there are two senses of prelude here..
TimToady much like p5 used to wrap programs in a loop when you use -p or -n
ruoso one which is the code that invoke the actual program
and other which is the outermost scope
TimToady good question whether they need to be or even should be distinct 14:39
ruoso the good thing about they being distinct is that every new file shares this same object as the outermost scope
TimToady but I would argue that part of the definition of a language is specifying how the parse tree is handled at the end
"every new file"? no, every file in a given language 14:40
different languages have different preludes
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TimToady preludes/postludes 14:40
ruoso actually... every "STD Perl 6 comp_unit"
TimToady well, if we don't give them the opportunity to tweak the calling code, then it's immutable at least by convention 14:41
but we want to change it ourselves with new versions of Perl 6
but I think prelude as wrapper would be an easy thing for people to grok 14:42
ruoso ok, maybe the prelude scope is itself a contextual var (at the time of "use")
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TimToady maybe use treats the calling code as prelude wrapper for the called module 14:44
no, that won't work 14:45
violates audreyt's separate compilation concerns
ruoso TimToady, one thing is "ultimate outer scope" and the other is "ultimate caller scope"
"outer" and "caller" are different axes in variable lookup
TimToady yes, but perhaps they both end up at the same place, and that might buy us something or other 14:46
ruoso i'm not sure how that can happen...
TimToady you can go out dynamic contexts, but you keep ending up in someone's lexical context
so they're already interwoven 14:47
ruoso yes... of course...
that's the exact point
contextual lookup goes "back" in the "caller" axis, making regular lookups where the variable has the "is context" trait
TimToady the question is whether outer and caller from the main scope end up at the same place
ruoso you do realize that will make all your globals visible as local variables, don't you? 14:48
i.e. $OUT
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TimToady hmm, well, maybe $*OUT merely tells the compiler to bypass lexical lookup and go straight to looking up $OUT dynamically 14:50
ruoso yeah... that's the "contextual lookup" I've been referring to
and there's the "ultimate caller"
which declares "my $OUT is context = $GLOBAL::OUT" 14:51
TimToady but there could be great value in confusing lexical and dynamic notation if we want to implement temp using context on lexicals
ruoso we could assume that temp $OUT would create a local copy to $*OUT 14:52
TimToady question is how 'my $x; temp $x = foo()" gets the temporized $x into its dynamic scope. 14:53
ruoso we had been there before...
TimToady it's not in the dynamic scope, since $x isn't visible there
ruoso temp needs contextual vars
TimToady but if you access $x lexically, it doesn't know to look it up dynamically
ruoso that's why "my $x; temp $x" is supposed to be a failure... 14:54
"my $x is context; temp $x" otoh, should do the trickl
TimToady eh, not specced as failure in p6
ruoso TimToady, yeah... I know... we discussed that before :)
TimToady, and we agreed at the time that temp can only be applied to contextual vars...
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TimToady I don't recall agreeing to that, but maybe I'm getting senile, or maybe I just didn't understand what you were saying 14:55
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ruoso heh... 14:56
TimToady I can always blame jet lag too
ruoso oh wait... I'm the one getting senile..
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ruoso it's "temp $x" that means "my $x is context" 14:56
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ruoso so it's a "my $x; temp $x" causes a 'redefining variable in the same scope' warning... 14:57
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TimToady defining temp as "is context" doesn't help 14:57
ruoso why
?
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ruoso inside the current scope, you can use the local name... 14:57
TimToady because you'll have some code that sees $x lexically and will go straight to the lexical without looking in the dynamic context
and the dynamic context is not guaranteed to be in the lexical context 14:58
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TimToady when you have routines calling back and forth 14:58
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ruoso oh... I think I see what you mean... 14:58
TimToady I think I see what needs to happen though
if you temporize $x somewhere, it's because it's already visible and mutable in the lexical scope
so it retroactively "mutes" it to a context var, so that anyone who looks it up lexically knows to look it up dynamically instead 14:59
ruoso but that doesn't solve the following:
package foo { my $var = 1; sub bar { say $var } }; my $var is context = 2; foo::bar() 15:00
TimToady It globally records the *fact* of temporization like p5, but doesn't track the *data* of it like p5
so the data is still contextual
ruoso TimToady, should foo::bar() say "1" or "2" on the above example? 15:01
I don't think there's a way to actually avoid the twigil to mean 'this lookup should be subject to contextual lookup' 15:02
TimToady it should say 1
if you want to force dynamic lookup, you need the *
ruoso right.. so it seems we agree after all 15:03
TimToady but then it throws away the * and looks for $foo and any dynamically surrounding lexical scope
(where declared contextual)
(or temporized contextual) 15:04
againg the "fact" of temporization, but not the value
pugs_svn r22525 | ruoso++ | [smop] SMOP__S1P__AdhocSignature lets you define a signature with custom molds for ACCEPTS and BIND
ruoso TimToady, should that mean that $*foo looks in the current scope for a contextual var first?
TimToady well, the fact comes from lexical lookup, then the value presumably comes from somewhere inner to the lexical that was temporized 15:05
ruoso lunch &
TimToady will think about current scope
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TimToady first answer, probably 15:06
and maybe $+foo forces one CALLER in there 15:08
'course, that means $?foo should mean here or in my direct caller :)
but if $*foo looks in this scope first 15:10
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TimToady and if we make temp mark the current lexical as temporarily contextual 15:11
then the redirection of $foo to $*foo on temporized variable would be wrongish, I think 15:12
since it would find the lexical again first
so maybe it redirects to $+foo instead
but then, what if the temp was done in the current scope?
which I think argues that temp must also set up a contextual mirror in the current scope, and then we redirect to $*foo 15:13
so in the case of "my $x; temp $x" in the same scope, we can probably just mark the my as contextual to begin with instead of complaining 15:14
TimToady is getting mushbrain, need more coffee
I do like that this seems to be getting closer to the p5 local model while extracting out the damaging component of global state 15:16
makes me feel happier about emulating p6 context with locals in p5 15:17
and maybe p5 could move to this model someday
and then get localized my vars :)
TimToady suspects that coffee will only help a little with TimToady's kind of mushbrain... 15:24
[particle] a long walk and lots of wires might help 15:25
TimToady coffee already gets me wired, and makes me walk down the hall occasionally 15:31
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pmurias ruoso: hi 16:43
rakudo_svn r31757 | particle++ | [rakudo] [perl #59570] $*OS and $*EXECUTABLE_NAME globals initial implementation
r31757 | particle++ | ~ add support for $*OS, $*OSVER, $*EXECUTABLE_NAME
r31757 | particle++ | modified and expanded from azawawi++'s original code
mncharity rakudo: say [$*OS, $*OSVER, $*EXECUTABLE_NAME] 16:47
lambdabot mncharity: You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it.
p6eval rakudo 31667: OUTPUT[Null PMC access in get_string()ā¤current instr.: 'parrot;P6metaclass;add_parent' pc 95 (runtime/parrot/library/P6object.pir:126)ā¤]
mncharity masak: :)
mncharity notes 31667 seems << than 31757 16:48
moritz_ should take a look at evalbot 16:49
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moritz_ rakudo needed a 'make clean', it seems 16:51
rebuilding now
rakudo: say [$*OS, $*OSVER, $*EXECUTABLE_NAME].perl 16:53
p6eval rakudo 31667: OUTPUT[["./parrot", "./parrot", "./parrot"]ā¤]
moritz_ [particle]: do you want a ticket? ;-) 16:54
[particle] hrmm, what happened there... oh, i think i know
no ticket
moritz++ 16:58
rakudo_svn r31758 | particle++ | [rakudo] silly me (particle--), i forgot to create a new string every time
r31759 | particle++ | [rakudo] refactor package definition exit code based on feedback from pmichaud++ 16:59
moritz_ actually it's mncharity++ for detecting ;) 17:00
[particle] rakudo: say [$*OS, $*OSVER, $*EXECUTABLE_NAME].perl
p6eval rakudo 31757: OUTPUT[["./parrot", "./parrot", "./parrot"]ā¤]
[particle] kicks p6eval :P 17:01
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moritz_ [particle]: no need for kicking, parrot is rebuilt every full hour on p6eval's server 17:02
[particle] hourly... good to know. on the hour? 17:03
moritz_ yes
[particle] rakudo: say [$*OS, $*OSVER, $*EXECUTABLE_NAME].perl
p6eval rakudo 31757: OUTPUT[["linux", "", "./parrot"]ā¤]
[particle] good, except the version is wrong
moritz_ [particle]++
[particle] s/version/revision/ 17:04
moritz_ where should parrot get the os version from?
[particle] it gets it during config, i think
from what, i'm not sure
moritz_ uname -a?
or more like /etc/debian_version?
[particle] maybe on linux
not on windows :)
anyway that $* stuff is compiler-specific 17:05
so, it's definitely not a rakudo bug, it's a parrot bug
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[particle] did spectest_regression get slow again, or is it just so many more tests? 17:07
moritz_ I think mostly more tests 17:09
rakudo.de/progress.png
just look at the total
[particle] yeah
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moritz_ [particle]: spectest_regression is up to ~9m CPU time again, which is roughly where it was before precompiled modules 17:15
17:16 PZt left
[particle] ok, that's how it felt to me (i never remember to look at the time at the end) 17:16
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moritz_ due to parallel testing I'm now at 5m20 real time 17:17
[particle] how do i enable that?
moritz_ (2 CPUs; I need to get more of them)
[particle] i have 4, hoping for 8 by next year
moritz_ TEST_JOBS=2 make spectest_regression
(on linux)
ok, maybe TEST_JOBS=5 for you ;)
you might need a fairly recent version of TAP::Harness on windows 17:18
mncharity perl6: "a".length 17:19
p6eval rakudo 31760: OUTPUT[Method 'length' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'ā¤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_10:13)ā¤] 17:20
..pugs: OUTPUT[*** No such method in class Str: "&length"ā¤ at /tmp/b6hbFJ9DW3 line 1, column 1 - line 2, column 1ā¤]
..elf 22525: RESULT[1ā¤]
pugs_svn r22526 | pmurias++ | [mildew] say "Hello World" compiles correctly
moritz_ length is a banned word ;)
mncharity :) now gone from elf. The current 1 minute CL elf compile is a pain. 17:23
moritz_ wonders if mncharity has ever built gcc ;) 17:24
mncharity lol 17:25
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moritz_ perl6: print "ab".chars 17:25
p6eval elf 22526, pugs, rakudo 31760: OUTPUT[2]
moritz_ perl6: print "ab".codes
p6eval elf 22526, pugs: OUTPUT[2]
..rakudo 31760: OUTPUT[Method 'codes' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'ā¤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_12:13)ā¤]
mncharity many, many times. but I'd not consider the gcc build process a model of sanity.
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mncharity (at least as of some years aog() 17:26
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mncharity *ago 17:26
perl6: print "切".codes 17:29
p6eval rakudo 31760: OUTPUT[Method 'codes' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'ā¤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_12:13)ā¤]
..elf 22526, pugs: OUTPUT[1]
mncharity perl6: print "切".bytes
p6eval elf 22526, pugs: OUTPUT[3]
..rakudo 31760: OUTPUT[Method 'bytes' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'ā¤current instr.: '_block11' pc 21 (EVAL_12:13)ā¤]
moritz_ perl6: my $s = "A\c[COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT]"; say $s.codes; say $s.chars; say $s.graphs; 17:30
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p6eval elf 22526: OUTPUT[Can't locate String/Multibyte.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.10.0 /usr/local/share/perl/5.10.0 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.10 /usr/share/perl/5.10 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at ./elf_f line 89.ā¤ at ./elf_f line 3861ā¤27ā¤27ā¤] 17:31
..rakudo 31760: OUTPUT[Method 'codes' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'ā¤current instr.: '_block11' pc 42 (EVAL_11:20)ā¤]
..pugs: OUTPUT[2ā¤1ā¤1ā¤]
TimToady wow, I didn't expect pugs to get that right
moritz_ neither 17:32
TimToady I wonder if it \c canonicalized to NFC
pugs: my $s = "-\c[COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT]"; say $s.codes; say $s.chars; say $s.graphs; 17:33
p6eval pugs: OUTPUT[2ā¤1ā¤1ā¤]
rhr pugs has a .graphs in prelude that has an incomplete list of combining chars
moritz_ perl6: my $s = "A\c[COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT]"; say $s.codes; say $s.chars; say $s.graphs;
p6eval rakudo 31760: OUTPUT[Method 'codes' not found for invocant of class 'Perl6Str'ā¤current instr.: '_block11' pc 42 (EVAL_11:20)ā¤]
..elf 22526: OUTPUT[27ā¤27ā¤27ā¤]
..pugs: OUTPUT[2ā¤1ā¤1ā¤]
moritz_ ah, elf doesn't interpolate \c
ruoso TimToady, hmm... I was thinking earlier that you were meaning to merge $*foo and $+foo as being the same thing... which would mean dropping one of the syntaxes 17:41
TimToady, I was thinking on 'temp $x' declaring a local name '$x' that points to the contextual variable... which would be kinda the same of 'my $x is context<rw>' 17:43
then in that scope, you could either use '$x' or '$*x' but to access a temp variable not declared "here", you would always need the '$*x' syntax 17:45
mncharity re elf \c , more generally, the old STD didn't really support strings, so strings are kludged in elf. no interpolation in general. with new STD_blue, can do better.
ruoso .oO(is there going to be a STD_green?) ;) ;) ;)
TimToady green is my favorite color, though I like purple better 17:46
mncharity STD_blue is a hopefully minimal wrapper around gimme5. written in p5. STD_something is a version written in p6. then the parser disappears into elf.
TimToady have you looked at viv? it spits out something ASTish now 17:47
and at least once I successfully spat out the VAST for STD.pm 17:48
for some definition
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ruoso TimToady, btw... I think I have my mind clearer now... and I think a good model could be dropping either '$*foo' or '$+foo', as both would mean the same thing, that variable would start looking for contextual vars *in the current scope*, and falling to the callers... 'temp $x' would just be a synonim for 'my $x is context<rw>'... and I think that's all 17:52
I think that addresses all the issues you raised... 17:53
TimToady not if the intent of temp $foo is to override someone's use of $foo without them having to say $*foo 17:54
I'm looking for something a little closer to the spirit of local 17:55
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ruoso TimToady, "someone" where? 17:57
in an inner scope? or in an inner caller?
TimToady in the lexical scope of the original my $foo but not in the lexical scope of the temp $foo
ruoso hmmm... 17:58
TimToady the purpose of temp is different than the purpose of "is context"
temp overrides the meaning of the root variable without changing its scope
we need at least a bit in that variable that says, "oops, look in the dynamic scope instead" 17:59
ruoso it's weird the idea of a code being able to mess with the closure's variables
mncharity TimToady: viv? no, I haven't - awesome.
ruoso I mean... if that variable is marked as contextual, ok...
but it looks like a huge mess to support that for non-contextual variables 18:00
rakudo_svn r31762 | particle++ | [rakudo] make branch explicit in 'variable' action method 18:01
ruoso because that would be automagically turning a 'my $foo' into 'my $foo is context'
TimToady, is there some use case for this specific feature? 18:02
TimToady well, the overhead is not on that end, but on the rvalue end that has to check the bit and redirect
not sure, but you're not implementing temp correctly if it doesn't change the root variable's meaning everywhere that can see it 18:03
ruoso *that can see it* 18:04
you said well..
TimToady lexically
ruoso 'my $x' is *not* visible from some scope that is not an inner scope
'my $x' is *not* visible by an inner "caller"... just by an inner "scope"
you can't say 'temp $x' in that case, because 'my $x' is not visible to you... 18:05
TimToady but I can call into a routine that is in the tree of $x, and it can temporize during that call, even though I'm not called by the code that declared $x in the first place 18:06
ruoso that looks like p5 local, meaning that it's treating the variable as if it were global 18:07
TimToady anyway, ETOOMANYCONVERSATIONS for the moment, gotta concentrate on #parrot
ruoso btw... if both codes can see the variable, why can't the code just set a value for that variable, and reset it to the original value when exitting that scope? 18:10
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Gothmog_ Hm. What about refs to that variable? And what about big objects? 18:19
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Gothmog_ So if you have a capture of your outer $x, I suppose it should still point to the outer $x after you temp $x. 18:23
Just thinking loud.
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ruoso Gothmog_, in theory yes... 'temp' would just mess with future lookups of the variable... 18:34
Gothmog_ So if it's that way, and you just overwrite the variable, captures wouldn't work. 18:38
ruoso what do you mean? 18:40
mncharity TimToady: re viv, yay! :) 18:42
so STD_blue becomes a thin wrapper around viv. 18:43
Gothmog_ If you overwrite the value at the original location of my $x when you write temp $x, and your capture is in fact a pointer to that original location, it would suddenly contain the inner $x, and it would be virtually impossible to work around that. 18:44
Of course, everything under the assumption that a capture of the outer $x is supposed still to contain the outer one when you do temp $x. 18:45
gtg 18:46
bye!
18:49 azawawi joined
azawawi hi 18:49
moritz_ hi azawawi ;)
azawawi moritz_: how r u? 18:50
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moritz_ distracted 18:50
azawawi rakudo: 1.unpolar(0) 18:51
p6eval rakudo 31762: RESULT[1+0i]
azawawi rakudo: cis(0) 18:52
p6eval rakudo 31762: RESULT[1+0i]
azawawi rakudo: cis(0) == 1.unpolar(0)
p6eval rakudo 31762: RESULT[Bool::True]
18:54 alanhaggai left 19:20 pmurias joined
pugs_svn r22527 | putter++ | [viv] Simplify using viv as a library - if($0 eq __FILE__). 19:25
r22528 | putter++ | [elfish/on_sbcl] Still struggling towards self compilation. 19:29
r22528 | putter++ | [elf_h] Tweaks.
19:29 pmurias left 19:31 mncharity left 19:33 rdice joined
azawawi moritz_: is there a new parrot release on the way? 19:39
moritz_ azawawi: there's a parrot release every month 19:40
azawawi moritz_: cool 19:41
19:45 rdice left
pugs_svn r22529 | ruoso++ | [smop] removing old_src dir, since its been a while since anyone touches it 19:58
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pmurias ruoso: have you seen the version of lexical scope converted to the RI DSL 20:02
pmurias finally has internet in his room ;)
ruoso :) 20:03
pmurias, yeah... I just saw it...
it looks great...
and yeah... I know I'm not using it yet ;), but that was because the ri I created was copy'n'pasted from other one 20:04
pmurias the RI DSL has only became usable in that commit
20:05 justatheory left
ruoso yeah... it indeed looks much better 20:05
have you seen test/36? 20:06
pmurias, I think 'sub dispatch' will be needed sooner than I expected... 20:07
but that's a good thing...
because it means that the code will be closer to actual Perl 6
that came with the realization that the prelude should be populated by the things in src-s1p
pmurias 'sub dispatch' = ?
ruoso pmurias, yeah... how &map, &infix:<+> work 20:08
and in fact, 'multi sub dispatch' is what I mean 20:09
since &infix:<+> will have an important variant for (int,int)
that's why I started AdhocSignature... 20:10
to allow the signatures in src-s1p to be compiled to blocks of m0ld code 20:11
that will both reply to ACCEPTS and to BIND
remember the idea of having the signature translated to the start of the routine?
that's an improved version of that ;)
pmurias is signature introspection required for something? 20:13
ruoso some introspection is... 20:14
.arity should probably be added to AdhocSignature
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ruoso but I don't think full introspection is really needed... 20:15
at least not for start
moritz_ .count is needed for map, isn't it?
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ruoso moritz_, wasn't 'arity' used for that? 20:16
moritz_ ruoso: if you want @list.map( -> $x? { 2 * $x } ); to pass an argument to the block, you need .count
ruoso hmm... 20:17
alright then... .arity and .count 20:18
moritz_ but that example is nonsense
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ruoso was trying to figure out what that meant 20:18
moritz_ perhaps if we had a rand() that could be both unary and nullary 20:19
like perl 5's
ruoso sub rand ( $i? = 1 )
moritz_ then @list.map(&rand) would behave differently, depending on wheter you use .count or .arity
ruoso: exactly 20:20
ruoso anyway... adding both shouldn't be a trouble
TimToady for things that work left to right, it makes some sense to use .arity and bind the extra params only if they're there 20:21
for right-to-left things like the new ..., it really needs .count
since *@_ is arity 0
but count *
(yes, the spec on ... is inaccurate there) 20:22
ruoso pmurias, anyway... I think we should consider translating as much as we can to the RI DSL, since that will allow us a nicer transition to supporting non-native captures and identifiers
TimToady hmm, I wonder if we can play games with an invocant declaration... 20:23
for map -> $prevcap: $_ { $$prevcap + $_ }
pmurias ruoso: ;) 20:24
TimToady but what would you do the first time? O_o
moritz_ TimToady: pass a capture to the entire array as invocant? ;)
not that it's useful in any way ;) 20:25
ruoso TimToady, is it possible to have invocant declaration in a sub? what does it point to?
TimToady would presumably depend on what kind of capture you try to bind to it 20:26
if you're binding a capture with an invocant, it's obvious
if one without, maybe first arg
ruoso hmm.... that brings us back to an old discussion...
moritz_ isn't that old, deprecated method fallback?
ruoso the signature of .postcircumfix:<( )> 20:27
TimToady yes, but I have to commute to work before we can rehash that. :)
moritz_: we're talking about how you write a method dispatcher in p6 without assuming methods
ruoso stands for '.postcircumfix:<( )> ($capture)' instead of '.postcircumfix:<( )> (|$capture)'
TimToady I think &method should be callable as a subroutine
anyway, gotta rn 20:28
*run
ruoso planning on how to implement multi sub 20:29
pmurias ruoso: re multi sub dispatch its not difficult to write a simple version of it, but having it fast is complicated 20:30
ruoso pmurias, I'd be happy with "good enough"
for some reason, I think SMOP won't be that slow 20:31
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ruoso (even without optimizations, I mean) 20:32
20:32 kjs_ left, rdice left
ruoso pmurias, most importantly, I'm ok with having a first implementation that will be replaced somewhere in the future 20:32
pmurias the runloop as done is propably a huge performance hit
ruoso: do we really need multis now? having mildew compile more stuff could be a better idea 20:34
ruoso pmurias, the thing is that for mildew to compile correctly, we need multis
otherwise we will need to rework it in a very near future
I mean... 'say "Hello"' is a multi dispatch 20:36
we can have mildew working before multi, but it will be simply wrong...
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ruoso and we will need multis for the code in src-s1p 20:36
moritz_ diakopte1: ping 20:38
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pmichaud class Foo { ... }; say Foo.WHAT; # "Foo\n" 20:41
module Bar { ... }; say Bar.WHAT; # ???
ruoso pmichaud, 'cannot find class Bar in the current scope'
pmurias ruoso: you can look at how jonathan implemented multis in parrot 20:42
ruoso pmurias, good point... 20:43
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ruoso pmichaud, I was trying to find in the specs, but I couldn't... TimToady said someday in the irc that Bar.something always look for a class... if you want to use it as a package you need to use :: 20:46
pmichaud ruoso: thanks, that's a big help. 20:47
ruoso++ 20:48
ruoso :) 20:49
azawawi moritz_: regarding RT #56226 - (roots.pl), did u mean to use unpolar instead of polar in @results? 20:54
pmurias ruoso: is there anything else missing before mildew can start compiling stuff which runs correctly?
20:54 pyrimidine joined
moritz_ azawawi: sorry, don't have concentration at the moement... care to reply to the ticket? 20:55
ruoso pmurias, we need P6Meta.pm to be completed 20:56
unless you consider using only pureprototypehow
pmurias, compiling P6Meta.pm seems to be the target for mildew, I think 20:57
(the first target, of course... many others to come later ;)
azawawi moritz_: done... 20:58
ruoso pmurias, that means also implementing the Capture Expansion
pmurias, to support foo(|@bar)
then gather/take 20:59
feed operators
pretty much what's in the ROADMAP
pmurias P6Meta could be simpilified
ruoso pmurias, seems fine to me.. 21:00
but our next major milestone is to have both P6Meta.pm and Object.pm compiled
if we can simplify them a little bit, I think there's nothing wrong with it (as long as they do what they are supposed to do) 21:01
but one thing that's missing on P6Meta is "method dispatch" 21:02
I was hoping someone could write it..
ruoso have to run...
pmurias, I'll try to get back online asap...
ruoso will backlog later... 21:03
21:03 ruoso left
pmurias sleep& 21:06
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pugs_svn r22530 | moritz++ | [irclog] point r\d+ in #perl6 to SVN::Web instead of trac, because trac's CSS 21:27
r22530 | moritz++ | is a 404, and I don't know how to fix that.
moritz_ that worked. 21:28
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ruoso cool... parrot implementation of multis is pretty close to what I had thought also... 22:19
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azawawi moritz_: roots() and polar() are now implemented in any-num.pir (RT #56226) 22:50
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meppl good night 23:14
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Kitchy If the Perl 5 to Perl 6 translator that 23:45
...I mean...
If the Perl 5 to Perl 6 translator that's been discussed actually happens, would we be able to put an end to Perl 5? 23:46
23:46 justatheory joined
Kitchy Because all I've heard was that Perl 5 will still be around. Maybe it doesn't need to be. 23:47
pmichaud why shouldn't it be? Perl 5 is excellent.
Kitchy If you could do it with just Perl 6 installed, you'd be able to use it. 23:48
It would be like a perl 5/6 combo that's billed as Perl 6 but works with Perl 5 too.
ab5tract sounds like a waste of time
Kitchy It kind of sounded like Perl 6 will have such a translator anyway. 23:49
pmichaud Kitchy: sure, it probably will. But we're not ones to believe in "only one way of doing things" :-)
Kitchy If the translator is easily enough invoked from within Perl 6, it's not really limiting and dedicated Perl 5 could be discontinued. 23:51
pmichaud Perl 5 will be "discontinued" when people decide they no longer need it. Personally, I think that may be a while.
ab5tract wasn't there going to be a perl 5 for parrot? 23:54
anyway, lots of perl 5'ers seem to also love hating perl 6. so threatening (or even implying) to 'discontinue' their choice platform probably wouldn't go over too well. 23:57
not to mention: what's the necessity of it anyway?
Kitchy I mean requiring them to install Perl 6 and do something to invoke Perl 5 if they want to use it. 23:58
23:58 justatheory left
TimToady this will all work itself out over the long run. we need a story for those who want to migrate, and a story for those who don't. 23:58
those need not be the same story 23:59
23:59 Exodist left
pmichaud I like the notion of "story" here -- very good. 23:59

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