This channel is intended for people just starting with the Raku Programming Language ( Logs are available at
Set by lizmat on 8 June 2022.
_elcaro_ Oh, I should also mention .pick(**) which is like running pick in a loop (where it picks from a pool of n items without duplicates, then starts over again, so for each n items, there will be no duplicate picks. Appending a batch illustrates that [0] > ('a'..'c').pick(**).head(15).batch(3) ((a b c) (b a c) (c b a) (c b a) (b a c)) 00:25
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.ohnowendigo @elcaro, haha good to know. That ** thing is crazy, Rau is crazy 01:30
The J is annoying because it only provides a noun for ALL ascii charcters, and you have to do the ascii math yourself. I just now came up with {{ a. {~ 97 + y ?@:$ 26 }} 01:33
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_elcaro_ Yes, it's annoying. I have azuc and azlc nouns defined in my .jprofile and use them a lot! But yeah in general, Raku is nicer for dealing with anything string-related 03:12
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rcmlz I use the folder structure /bin/ /lib/ /t/ Assuming I have /lib/Foo/Bar.rakumod (and in Bar.rakumod first line unit module Bar:ver<0.0.1>;) and marking functions I want to export as "is export" like this proto levenshtein-distance(Str $s1, Str $s2) returns UInt is export {*} then starting any test or script #!/usr/bin/env raku use lib 'lib'; use Foo::Bar; CommaIDE works fine for me. 07:56
(after telling CommaIDE where "zef" is located CommaIDE also ask to install all missing dependencies listed in META6.json - very nice feature!) 07:59
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in order to make CommaIDE accepting the symbolic link for zef I edited .idea/workspace.xml manually 08:12
PS: would be cool if zef had an "-r" option like pip, such that I could manually run "zef install -r META6.json" from teh command line. 08:17
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Reading this, are there plans to rename META6.json to something reflecting Raku instead of Perl6? Or will that be a legacy that when pupils ask "why" we answer "historic reasons". 08:20
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wafflus how do i install modules? zef install Getopt::Long tried various nodules they all fail 11:31
nemokosch could you do --verbose and post the output? 11:33
wafflus 11:36
nemokosch I'm gonna compare it with my system. What OS, Rakudo version and zef version are you using? 11:38
wafflus This is Rakudo version 2019.11 built on MoarVM version 2019.11 11:40
implementing Perl 6.d. and zef is 0.8.2
nemokosch hm, both pretty old 11:41
wafflus i'm also using a windows native version but that one above is the wsl version 11:42
windows native version has a different problem installing modules
nemokosch I'm also using WSL but with more recent builds
we can return to the windows version as well but for now let's try to tackle this one
wafflus i installed thouirgh sudo apt get
nemokosch yeah I don't think (or at least wouldn't assume) those get regularly updated 11:43
wafflus any alternatives? i can install? 11:44
in wsl?
is your friend!
nemokosch if you want it to work with OS-specific package managers, then
if it's not so important for you, I'd also recommend Rakubrew 11:45
that's what I'm using anyway
librasteve i would be very surprised if the Unix-ish install of rakubrew doesn't just work out of hte box for WSL
Just copy and paste the following piece of code into a console. curl | sh 11:46
nemokosch it tends to work on Linux for sure
never got it to work on Windows though... despite that it should work in theory
librasteve works well on macOS 11:47
wafflus yeah windows version seems a little borken with unicode
i kind of works for me but unicode does not
nemokosch The Unicode part can be fixed with an environmental variable or maybe a registry setting
that one I did manage to fix
librasteve borken == <broken | borked>.any ? 11:48
nemokosch this "common wisdom" should be collected somewhere tbh
I only know that Unicode fix because somebody wrote it on this chat at some point
and I don't know it by heart, only that it exists and it worked 😅
wafflus what do i do? 11:49
to fix the unicode
nemokosch I'd say for now just try to get a more recent version with Rakubrew and in the meantime I'll try to look that one up...
wafflus ok i will try those debian instructions with curl?
nemokosch right 11:50
by the way, this was actually easier than I thought, this was the helpful post:
wafflus oh sorry seen that before it din't fix the unicode issues 11:51
:(  ty anways
nemokosch "works on my machine" 😅
wafflus unlucky me :( 11:52
nemokosch tbh if that's your only issue running Rakudo on Windows, perhaps you are the lucky one
wafflus i did curl -1sLf \ 11:55
  '' \
  | sudo -E bash
what do i do next?
Welcome to Rakudo(tm) v2023.08. 11:57
Implementing the Raku(R) Programming Language v6.d.
Built on MoarVM version 2023.08.
is that newer? 11:58
it;s still v6.2 but he moarvm seems newer
it;s still v6.d
nemokosch that's okay 11:59
wafflus og sorry
that was the windows one facepalm 12:00
nemokosch I don't want to get into too many details but the premise is that you can continuously upgrade Rakudo and have it behave "the same way"
rcmlz Is there a Raku-ish way of making an alias for a function? proto edit-distance(Str $s1, Str $s2) returns UInt is export {*} multi edit-distance($s1, $s2) { levenshtein-distance($s1, $s2) } 12:01
wafflus i got rakubrew
librasteve 👍 12:02
nemokosch then you could run rakubrew download I think
librasteve # list available versions rakubrew available # download and install the latest Rakudo on MoarVM version rakubrew download # switch to use that version (substitute the version you just installed) rakubrew switch moar-2019.11 raku -e 'say "Now running {$*RAKU.compiler.version}!"'
nemokosch it pretty much tells you what to do besides that
wafflus Now running 2023.08! 12:03
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nemokosch what about zef --version? 12:04
wafflus one sec
librasteve bt wyou can also go raku -v
wafflus 0.18.3
nemokosch pretty good, I'd still run zef upgrade zef to get to 0.19 12:05
it was released yesterday apparently
wafflus k cool doing so now
do you reccomend rakubrew over rakudo? 12:06
nemokosch rakubrew is a tool over rakudo
librasteve rakubrew is just an installer for rakudo
nemokosch it really just installs bundles and lets you compile custom Rakudo instances
wafflus ohh i thought they where diffrent things for getting raku
nemokosch Rakubrew "competes" with Rakudo Star, rather 12:07
librasteve its like pyenv
(for rakudo)
wafflus ah maybe that is what i meant
nemokosch @rcmlz hey, spit it out already 😄
wafflus would you reccomend rarkubrew pver  rakudo star?
rcmlz Is there a way of making an alias for a function such that .WHY.leading is preserved? Example: edit-distance and levenshtein-distance are the same, I implemented levenshtein-distance (using various multis) and now want to point edit-distance() to this - and also preserve the documentation such that edit-distance.WHY.leading shows the same as levenshtein-distance.WHY.leading - but whitout repeating myself
before the proto. #|[ Here some awesome documenation ... ] proto levenshtein-distance(Str $s1, Str $s2) returns UInt is export {} proto edit-distance(Str $s1, Str $s2) returns UInt is export {} multi edit-distance($s1, $s2) { levenshtein-distance($s1, $s2) } multi levenshtein-distance("", $s2) { $s2.chars } multi levenshtein-distance($s1, "") { $s1.chars } more multis ...
nemokosch on Linux surely
it's simple and yet flexible 12:08
librasteve me too
and on macos
rcmlz on Mac: works for me
nemokosch on Windows I haven't had much luck with it unfortunately, hopefully it will be fixed at some point
homebrew is not really a competitor of rakubrew, it's rather a competitor of apt and yum on Linux distros 12:09
rcmlz On Windows, why don't you just spin up a Linux VM with CommaIDE + Raku in it?
nemokosch I use WSL 12:10
but in any case, there are always people who use Windows for some reason
we don't live in a world where you can just give up on proper Windows support for a scripting language
librasteve even on mac I much prefer ubuntu ona vm for (raku) dev't 12:11
wafflus i upgrade to the lastest zef
nemokosch then could you please re-run zef install --verbose Getopt::Long?
librasteve otherwise you constantly get hassle with things like ssl libraries and so on
rcmlz I saw yesterday a friend fighting with Python and a long requirement.txt on Windows ... gave up and did in inside a VM, all fine.
wafflus tried zef install Linenoise and it failed
nemokosch and see if there is a good change
Linenoise requires native C stuff for sure
librasteve yeah that always fails for me - just do Readline instead 12:12
wafflus running a vm to run a simple script seems a bit of a hassle tbh
nemokosch so apparently Readline works for you? xD
wafflus sec i will try Readline
rcmlz Tell that the Amazon-Lambda-Folks ... 12:13
librasteve well yeah, I have raku outside the vms too ;-)
nemokosch wafflus: I think if you only want a development environment for yourself, you have all the reasons to always go for Linux
unless you are doing something platform-specific
wafflus readline seems to work but confusing it spits out loads of errors
when installing
nemokosch this is a good example of too many choices 12:14
- Readline is mostly abandoned
- Linenoise requires some awareness of C libraries
rcmlz @nemokosch did you see my question about function aliases? I fear it got drowned in the recent flood of posts ...
librasteve well it's only to get the repl playing nice
wafflus i get about 10 of these lol  Methods .^name, .raku, .gist, or .say can be used to stringify it to something meaningful.
  in method try-load at /home/waffle/.rakubrew/versions/moar-2023.08/share/perl6/site/sources/02E9D2B1B91A7A6CD0C45BF3F77F7A935B48B373 (Zef) line 155
nemokosch - Terminal::LineEditor is what I mostly use but lately there was a problem after a change to the Termios package 12:15
hopefully it got fixed during this week
and also it's possible that termios also needs some native tweaking
wafflus: I'd say leave that for later, check a pure Raku package for now 12:16
I wonder about Getopt::Long anyway, a pretty useful dist
that's also a thing but could you place your code inside triple backticks? 12:17
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rcmlz did not know that - done. 12:18
nemokosch oh right, I can confirm zef prints a lot of bogus lines
that can very well be a regression but maybe it doesn't ruin the bigger picture 12:19
@rcmlz what if you simply bind the function to another symbol? is that not sufficient? 12:20
rcmlz is that exported from the .rakumod? 12:23
nemokosch I suppose if you mark it for export, it should get exported 12:24
rcmlz our &edit-distance is export := &levenshtein-distance;
nemokosch you probably have some code, don't you
so I'd say just go ahead and try it
rcmlz thank you
did not know about "our" 12:25
nemokosch it makes the symbols installed into the package associated with the file... I think
rcmlz all test run, works, nice! 12:26
nemokosch something like that. I'm not so fond of namespacing in most languages, let alone in Raku
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wafflus: aside from the spamming, Getopt::Long did install OK for me 12:31
wafflus it seems modules are installing correctly now
jsut trying to figure out how to get the short options 12:32
nemokosch seems like I left all the code relying on Getopt::Long at the previous company... 12:33
you know about sub MAIN, right? 12:34
wafflus yeah that was i'm using i tried both version in the synopsis 12:35
i jsut get unknown option
nemokosch could you show the code and the call?
I can't recall any problems with Getopt::Long combined with MAIN 12:36
wafflus k sec 12:37 12:40
nemokosch okay okay, and how do you call it? 12:44
wafflus raku main-test.raku --one 4 --two 5 for long options (works) i then tried with -o 4 -t bear Unknown option -o 12:49
nemokosch by default it doesn't abbreviate. One obvious way would be to define the abbreviation by hand: Int :o(:$one) 12:52
from what I understand, there is a way to get this automatically as well, didn't manage so far 12:53
wafflus oh ok ty let me try btw do you reccomend rakudo-moar 2023.06-01 main or
rakudo-star 2023.06-01 main on windows?
that works btw ty 12:54
nemokosch there is no difference
"rakudo-star" refers to a bundle
"rakudo-moar" refers to Rakudo utilizing the MoarVM runtime 12:55
in practice, you will probably always see Rakudo on top of MoarVM
wafflus should i install rakubrew on top of it as well?
nemokosch in practice, the only compiler is Rakudo, and the only properly functional runtime of it is MoarVM
wafflus k cool 12:56
nemokosch the rest is only a matter of how you get this tool
Rakubrew is one way to get them: it's a CLI tool maintained by Patrick Böker, he creates the built "images" for it
Rakubrew also lets you install different versions of Rakudo, build them from source, or use a runtime different from MoarVM (which is not super useful at the moment) 12:57
wafflus k atm i'm installing using scoopt
nemokosch Rakudo Star is a project for creating Rakudo releases in a "less involved" way 12:58
they basically create installables from Rakudo on MoarVM, plus some common dists ("modules") preinstalled 12:59
rakudo-pkg is Claudio Ramirez' effort to provide up-to-date packages for system's package managers like apt or yum 13:00
wafflus i'll gues i will stick with the star one i'm guessing the packages might be usefull 13:01
nemokosch the end goal is the same: to get a recent Rakudo (usually atop MoarVM, as things stand) installed to the system, preferably with zef working for ease of dist installation 13:02
wafflus this is what happans when i zef install on windows 13:08
nemokosch oh by the way, the "auto-abbreviate" feature apparently works as --o, not -o
I don't know how you feel about that 13:09
wafflus oh ok but -o seems to work? 13:10
nemokosch if you do the "trick" I showed then yes
but not automatically
wafflus i couldnt get any short options without using the trick anways 13:11
nemokosch okay, I'm saying that you can shorten --options automatically, if you set it up
but if that's not what you want then of course it's irrelevant 13:12
wafflus well ideally it would be -long and -l but that probally does not work on linux?
nemokosch will take a look into it 13:13
okay, that's doable 13:16
wafflus wow cool
i always thought why didnt they just use - for both long and short options
nemokosch add my %*SUB-MAIN-OPTS = :!bundling; 13:17
somewhere before MAIN I guess
wafflus cool ty trying now
it didnt work sorry 13:22
nemokosch what did you do, then? 13:23
I tried it and it worked
wafflus can you show me yoirs
nemokosch 13:24
wafflus k ty isnt that the same one as before that relies on the trick? 13:27
nemokosch it works with -long and -l as well
I think that might work without Getopt::Long as well btw
wafflus %*SUB-MAIN-OPTS = :!bundling; does not seem to do anything 13:28
nemokosch it does seem to do something, namely that you can write -long without being interpreted as -l -o -n -g 13:29
wafflus oh ok
k cool this is great 13:31
think it all working i don't have to do the speical trick 13:34
sorry i lied lol 13:35
nemokosch I think you need to do that either way, unless there is a built-in option
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wafflus wont work unless i do :o(:$one) 13:35
no biggie i'm sure i can remeber that
btw what do you use to write rakue i'lm using code atm the lsp doesn't seem so great 13:36
nemokosch the RakuNavigator LSP is by far the best editor plugin what we have I think 13:37
there are people who use Comma, I wouldn't know much about it but it's supposed to be good...
I frankly just use near-default Vim or Cudatext usually, if not VSC
wafflus i already got that extension installed I dont seem to get many auto complete  options 13:38
i also have vim though i have nothing installed for that 13:39
nemokosch auto-complete no
never seen any auto-complete, either Comma has it or nothing
but hey, people say this is a "write-only language", who needs autocomplete for writing it 13:40
wafflus lol
nemokosch the only instruction is to start typing, you will definitely get somewhere
wafflus it kind of cool to do things like "apple". and get all the methods etc 13:41
instead i have to do "ddd".^methods
in a shell 13:42
i think the tools let down raku
nemokosch it would be cool but 1. Raku didn't seem to attract the kind of people who care about this
2. the design kind of goes against that, too. The interfaces are very fat and nested
you could easily get several dozens of methods 13:43
wafflus yeah:(  i mean look at things like the ruby shell and powersehll help system
very noob freindly
i mean if they actually fixed it to work on windows and auto installed linenoise or readline that would also help 13:44
nemokosch It's not easy to even recruit people who care 13:47
wafflus i wish i has the skills to maybe help
nemokosch couldn't say I care enough about Windows to try and tackle something with it, especially with this level of OS-specific knowledge
wafflus k but even linux didnt just work out of the box 13:48
nemokosch it makes some sense that native (as in, C ABI) libs aren't installed, that's very platform-specific
even Linux distros handle it one by one, in an arbitrary way
idk if Terminal::LineEditor would install out of the box, that has the highest chance 13:49
but even that depends on termios
wafflus just raku seems to have more hoops to get things up and running even on linux
nemokosch I don't have much to compare 13:50
wafflus for instance the shell ^A character when i tried to scroll up untill i installed readlione or linenoise 13:51
antononcube Comma does have both autocomplete and automatic documentation. (The latter does not work for all symbols all the time; YMMV.) 13:52
nemokosch I guess that's excusable for somebody coming from Perl which has no REPL whatsoever
wafflus k ty will try the comma out 13:53
nemokosch I would also miss the REPL though, but it also doesn't seem to be... interesting enough? to get some help
wafflus a repl that can scroll up out the box or delete things would be nice :) 13:54
antononcube @wafflus There is also an Emacs major mode for Raku. It is not that good, in my opinion, so I do not use it. (And I want to use Emacs.)
wafflus i;ve got emacs i found setting up emacs too much of a pain for lsp etc?
i've got a nice vim and code that works for most things 13:55
also emacs seems slighty broken on windows as well
antononcube Comma's REPL is great -- it would be nice its functionalities to be replicated outside of IntelliJ.
vim 🤮 13:56
also, vi 🤮
nemokosch Vim is the editor of engineers
antononcube also, python 🤮🤮🤮
nemokosch it's surprising that there aren't more Emacs users in the Raku community 13:57
wafflus vim was also a pain till i found someones config as a starting point
nemokosch Emacs is this typical idealist, "let's take up on everything" tool
Emacs could probably be emulated in Emacs lol
wafflus maybe emacs could emulate you as a special helper AI 13:59
antononcube Welll, Emacs can emulate vi / vim.
wafflus i think i have doom emacs mode or something like that 14:00
antononcube @waffus This can be done easily as an LLM persona.
wafflus I dunno would surly require too much computing power to emulate nemokosch's brain power? 14:01
nemokosch I've been blowing this trumpet for a long time that it's logical and all that everybody is a volunteer and therefore free to do whatever they want - but maybe some sacrifices should be made on the behalf of potential users...
wafflus :D  are there logs of this channel somewhere? 14:03
antononcube Again, LLMs can be the answer -- Nemokosch has left a lot or "written tracks" on his thought process. So, in should not be that hard to hijack LLMs computers to emulate generation of Nemokosch texts.
Do you mean money or small virgin mammals ? 14:04
nemokosch to summarize the topic: if you keep complaining about lack of resources, "resources" being the very few involved developers, including you... 14:05
wafflus i do like to use ai to ask programming related questions thought it does quite often give the wrong answer
nemokosch then maybe you should put more effort into getting and educating others to share this burden
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and if there were more people, each with their own unique challenges they want to address, maybe there could be an organic blending between UX concerns and developer effort 14:06
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wafflus restarting ty for all your help guys 14:08
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antononcube This might mean that you need to utilize proper prompt engineering. For popular programming languages the results are often good with OpenAI/ChatGPT. (No so much with PaLM/Bard, I think.) 14:08
And those unique challenges do not seem to intersect much (in Raku land.) 🙂 14:09
(Or Rakustan if you prefere... 🙂 ) 14:10
nemokosch but they mostly don't seem to intersect with core developers' interest to share knowledge
antononcube Hmm... I honestly do not know about that. My own interests are much more in the "applications area", not so much in Raku's intramural world. 14:13
nemokosch that's why you are fortunate
you require little to no assistance because you don't need to know Raku more than a user
antononcube Ha! That is insightful. (Also, maybe, an insult attempt... ) 🙂 14:19
(Meaning, you are implying I do not know Raku that much. 🙂 ) 14:20
I have to say, I still do not think that much in Raku. My programming thinking in Raku is either within OOP as in the "old" C++, or within Functional programming as in LISP. 14:23
scullucs @antononcube What editor do you use to prepare your blog posts?
nemokosch you don't have to know Raku "that much"
antononcube So, all your complains about Raku not shedding the Perl legacy resonate with me. 14:24
I use a Markdown editor (VS Code / Emacs / Comma / IntelliJ / One Markdown) to write a Markdown file corresponding to the post. I execute the Markdown file using "Text::CodeProcessing". Then I copy the content of the obtained "women" Markdown file into WordPress post editor. 14:27
If that I do not like the results of the WordPress interpretation of the Markdown, I generate the HTML version of the "woven" file, and paste that HTML code into the the "code editor" of WordPress. 14:28
scullucs Nice setup. You get very good results with it. 14:31
antononcube To be honest, I am inclined to think that doing posts via WordPress is not that good both as a workflow and as posts' outlook. I really have to figure out how to use (or whatever) for blog posts, or something like Hugo ( 14:32
For some posts, I start with a Jupyter notebook, and after finish writing and experimenting, I convert the notebook to Markdown. 14:33
I do not like Jupyter that much -- editing with it feels like using vi ...
BTW, instead of Markdown, the posts can be written in Org-mode or Pod6, and then "woven" with "Text::CodeProcessing". I think I have demoed that processin in some video last year. 14:35
rcmlz If you are into Markdown, you might want to try Obsidian, which has various possibilities to publish more or less automatically (paid version build in or use some free tools to do it)
antononcube Well, actually, I made the "Literate programming" demon in March this year: 14:41
Actually, people have mentioned to Obsidian in relation to the package "Markdown::Grammar". 14:42
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rcmlz I use Obsidian daily - drawback: nor explicit code highlighting for Raku as it uses CodeMirror6 for that which is missing a Language Pack for that. So I usually fall back to Perl to have some highlighting. 14:45
antononcube Again, I have heard about CodeMirror6 before in Raku's forums, and followed the links. I think that convinced me that the editor Geany needs Raku mode/style. 🙂 14:50
rcmlz The people on seem to be fluent in making packages ... maybe at some point they will create also one for Raku.
antononcube I will investigate... 14:52
@rcmlz Do you use replit IDE on a regular basis? If yes, with which programming languages? 15:11
librasteve I agree with the comments about the tooling for raku and the bias to unix vs. windows - but, I would also urge some fairness on the team. For comparison, here is what GitHub Insights shows for the last month of commit activity on (i) nodejs/node = 67 authors, (ii) python/cpython = 113 authors, (iii) rakudo/rakudo = 7 authors. 15:12
Specifically on the Comma IDE, I think that it is great to see the massive effort and commitment to get a full IDE based on the very popular IntelliJ platform to the level that it is ... even thought there is not yet a real commercial opportunitiy to sell Comma Pro. (Of course this team will be in poll position to lead in the market if raku continues to grow and increase in popularity) 15:14
Also the comments reflect that there is an explosion in cloud coding tools -, replit, etc etc and only when raku is in the top "20"? will it be something that those teams will want to spend effort to include 15:16
same with apt-get and homebrew
rcmlz No, I am not using it regularely. I was just testing it - if this is something I can use in teaching. Decided for Jupyter. But repl has Raku as one of the possible languages. 15:20
Aggree. I had the feeling that all these Web-Based tools use just 2 or 3 "code editor frameworks" as foundation - so key would be to get Raku in these "code editors framworks" as supported language. I would donate for that: 50 Euro. 15:25
librasteve I also use Brian Duggans Jupyter raku kernel ... I have it working in a Dockerfile but would prefer docker-compose .... has anyone got that working? PS. on AWS you need a t3.small (payable) as the minium viable CPU speed
nemokosch what is the difference? 😬 15:27
librasteve I don't know - the last time I could get my docker-compose.yaml up ... it was only a simple wrapper on the docker image ... sooo I am hoping to steal from someone who already has it working!! 15:30
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Manifest0 How can i save a function code or Code block given by the user, so i can execute it later on another run? I have a function that receives a function that i would like to save it for later. Example: sub save-function(&f) {spurt 'code.raku' &f } 16:21
is it possible to do something like this? 16:22
nemokosch maybe RakuAST will allow this 16:23
until that I suppose you need to carry strings around and EVAL them 16:24
Manifest0 how can i see the code of a function? 16:27
nemokosch not sure if you can 16:29
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lizmat Manifest0: you can not at the moment, other than by introspecting the file / line location and then read from that file starting at that line 16:56
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Manifest0 lizmat: thanks for the info! 18:14
librasteve crag-of -the-day crag 'say :<13.8 bn years> .rebase.norm' #435.49Ps 18:34
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