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sena_kun Failed to spawn process /opt/rakudo-pkg/bin/perl6: not enough memory (error code -12) 11:35
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sena_kun I am not really sure about doing any "cool" announcements, but considering I am begging here I guess it is not really necessary, so speaking briefly. 14:01
Visit (it's an IP of a throw-away VPS, so don't mind it) to peek at the "almost ready" demo of the docs re-design you all wanted. There are some missing bits and present bugs around, but still here is the first 80%. I know it is deadly slow and I honestly have no idea why now, for some reason docker on my server gives some insane network latency maybe? Fixing this is probably step 0 to continue with this. Really, it works 14:09
really fast locally and here even serving static files is painfully slow. I guess I messed up the deployment bit. Alas, I spent so much energy, money and time on this I don't have a lot of it anymore, so any help you can afford will be super welcome and is in fact necessary to complete this work together. It is written with Cro and solves lots of problems with the docs we have. Ping me if you think the sources repo should be made public or you want
to volunteer.
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vrurg sena_kun: it's certainly not "dead slow". And it's fantastic! 14:52
tellable6 hey vrurg, you have a message: gist.github.com/cabebe51505d7970c5...8803508b58
sena_kun vrurg, thank you! Dunno, it serves static files 5-10 seconds for me here, instead of 5-10 milliseconds it should, which is clearly not going to work. 14:55
vrurg sena_kun: If you say it takes less on your side... I'm probably got used to sites where pages can update 10-15 seconds. Feel no real discomfort. :) 14:59
sena_kun vrurg, no, really, that's a legitimate bug of my server setup somewhere. I guess one out of a dozen I need help with. I wonder if it should be posted on #raku, things seem to be more lively there. 15:01
vrurg sena_kun: I'm gonna post the link on FB and r/rakulang to attract more testers. If you don't mind, of course. 15:03
sena_kun vrurg, I wonder about that. The thing is, I (as everyone else, heh) don't need so many testers as I need volunteers. I know precisely what's broken and where and even have clues on how to fix it (sometimes). I imagine what may happen at best is 1)people saying "Ewww, it is deadly slow, drop it" and/or 2)my weak server will go OOM, it has only 2 gb or RAM and 1.3 is already taken by the raku process. 15:06
s/or RAM/of RAM/
vrurg sena_kun: Ok, we can ask for volunteers and stress it out that testing is not needed. Either way, it would increase chances of finding someone. 15:08
sena_kun vrurg, fair enough. Thank you! 15:09
vrurg Sadly, it's not gonna be me. Can't even find enough time to find invoice on a failed HDD to replace it if warranty is not voided... 15:10
sena_kun: can you remind me how do you spell your name? 15:11
sena_kun vrurg, ouch, but no problem. I hope you'll find it soonish.
vrurg, is it really necessary? 15:12
vrurg sena_kun: Ok, will send people to your IRC nick. 15:14
sena_kun vrurg++
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Froogal sena_kun hi!  I just saw your Reddit post.  I would love to help. 15:39
sena_kun Froogal, hey. Anything particular you can help with: JS bits, infra bits, Raku bits, none of the above? 15:40
vrurg sena_kun: Magic in action! It works! :D 15:41
Froogal I work a day job sadly but would love to help, what is needed?
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Froogal Sorry, Javascript is my thing 15:43
sena_kun Froogal, we do not hurry as much as to put aside the $dayjob.
sena_kun just made the repo public
Froogal That's good :) 15:44
I'm good with Javascript as well as PHP and HTML etc 15:45
sena_kun Froogal, feel welcome to check out github.com/Altai-man/docs.raku.org/issues/24 15:46
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Froogal My connectionis poor, ill be on later.  I got the GH url thank you! 15:51
sena_kun Froogal++
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Geth rakudo/rakuast: f47c564ef7 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | 5 files
RakuAST support for --> in signatures
rakudo/rakuast: f405749ed0 | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | 2 files
Basic rx// handling in RakuAST frontend

Only for the case when we don't have adverbs so far. At the AST level, it's the same as a plain //.
leont has no idea how far we are from merging rakuast, but he likes the feeling he has that it is progressing. 17:53
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lizmat leont: it's still quite a way away, but some tipping points are in sight 18:00
lizmat is working on operator introspection right now (on the RakuAST branch) 18:01
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Geth rakudo/rakuast: 57978ad7fb | (Jonathan Worthington)++ | 8 files
Assorted RakuAST quoted regex improvements

  * Capture `$_` and `$/` for 6.d and above when closure cloning
  * Make `/foo/` and `rx/foo/` in sink context do a match
  * Implement `m/foo/` (without adverbs for now)
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cj so someone said something about a documentation server ? 18:43
sena_kun cj, are you interested? :)
cj probably. give me details. I set up perl.c9h.org a while ago for perl and raku hosting. 18:44
rba cj: please let me know the idea about the hosting 18:45
sena_kun rba, I'm glad you're here as well. 18:46
Ok, so the details are as follows:
1)I have a Dockerfile that does all what's needed, you tweak some secret env vars, expose a port and it's done. By the way, I will also appreciate hosting for executing examples, it also has a dockerfile and can be configured in a couple of commands. 18:47
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sena_kun 2)For some unkonown, a totally mysterious reason, when I setup docker locally, it serves the files pretty fast, but on my digitalocean droplet it is deadly slow (as you can see) and I have no idea what particular bit is slow, so I'd like some help in investigating this case. 18:49
Still interested?
rba Yes. Sure.
sena_kun See github.com/Altai-man/docs.raku.org/#docker for details. 18:50
By the way, this is a surface level.
Ultimately I would like to set it up in a kubernetes swarm, maybe at least 2-3 instances in case of one going down. I know almost zero of kubernetes, so someone writing a config and PRing it... Just awesome. 18:51
rba Do we have a sponsor for the docker/kubernetes infrastructure? 18:52
sena_kun The thing is, it takes a lot of time (minutes or even dozens of minutes) to go from "docker run" to "it can serve pages with the cache heated", so we cannot have just one container with "Just restart it" policy, we need a better resillence than just that.
rba, I can pay for it given someone will write the thing and it's not super expensive. I already pay for most of the raku org websites, I think, and this 2 gb droplet for new docs costs me 10$ as well. 18:53
1GB is not enough, rakudo is too memory hungry.
rba Do you run the rakudo.org hosting? 18:54
sena_kun rba, not sure about rakudo.org, but I pay for hosting raku.org, docs.raku.org etc. 18:55
rba Most of the raku.org sites run on a traditional linux vm from nine.
sena_kun is confused
cj rba: Vadim Belman shared a link on facebook 18:56
help is needed with setting up a test site. Possibly not only, but more answers to be asked on freenode IRC #raku-dev, ping sena_kun
sena_kun rba, can I PM you with more info?
cj So maybe you want to move over to my host for a bit more of a permanent feel?
so my system is only a single instance here in Seattle. I have a second host in Eastern Washington that I could also run kubernetes on as well. But it sounds like google cloud might be a better hosting provided considering your constraints. 18:59
I see the system responds directly on as well 19:00
rba Ah. The links shows a new docs site?
sena_kun rba, which links?
rba s/links/http-URL/
sena_kun is still confused 19:01
rba What is the plan with ?
cj sena_kun: are you aware of cloud.google.com/kubernetes-engine ? 19:02
I happen to be one of the support engineers for cloud.google.com
rba cj: Sound interessting! 19:03
sena_kun cj, too costly for me.
rba Most of the currently run infrastructrue parts are driven by cost/sponsors. So I took what I got and try to keep it alive.
Thats why I initially asked about the costs. 19:04
sena_kun rba, can I PM you?
cj okay. I can do it for less, but you won't get the redundancy or distributed features from my environment that you get from my employer's.
rba sena_kun: sure :-) 19:05
cj with my hosting, I would host for free unless we need to charge a one-time fee for adding new memory or storage to the system or something
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rba Let's have a look an try. 19:06
cj what kind of resources do you need? The system has about 12G of memory and 1.4T of disk free. 19:07
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sena_kun cj, that should be more than plenty. Can you write a kubernetes config? 19:10
rba The currenty hosting server has 16 GB memory with 1211368 used, ~ 20 GB used for the websites.
[Tux] Rakudo v2021.02.1-51-g722c2c979 (v6.d) on MoarVM 2021.02-17-g9f0579d2a
csv-ip5xs0.783 - 0.804
csv-ip5xs-207.802 - 8.414
csv-parser25.042 - 25.751
csv-test-xs-200.379 - 0.393
test7.804 - 8.216
test-t1.885 - 2.010
test-t --race0.943 - 0.949
test-t-2031.976 - 32.192
test-t-20 --race9.844 - 9.884
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cj sena_kun: I could probably write a kubernetes config given a couple days lead time and a deadline :-) 20:03
I could also provide ssh access to a limited number of users
sena_kun cj, we discussed with rba what can be done briefly and your help is certainly an option. I hope you can cooperate with him to get some nice results. 20:05
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sena_kun [Coke], ping. WRT the website I presented today: I believe it wants to eventually replace the current docs website, but it is not ready to do it just yet and it won't without help of the community. 20:28
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patrickb sena_kun: Are you aware of finanalysts efforts wrt the docs website? 20:39
sena_kun patrickb, url?
I saw some proposals, but IMO they are not very applicable. 20:40
patrickb raku.finanalyst.org/
sena_kun patrickb, it piggybacks the organization of old website and thus has all the drawbacks it has, I believe. I have a great bunch of tickets assigned to me in the doc repo related to the website and nobody paid an attention. I did some simple efforts in improving the underlying system (I guess you are aware of the e.g. github.com/Raku/problem-solving/pull/271). So I don't think it is really applicable. 20:45
*I did some efforts like patching Pod::To::HTML, Documentable, but it was left not noticed, I believe. 20:46
So our approach to tacking the issues is very different.
Ugggh, I meant our approaches are different. 20:47
Too tired and my English starts to rot.
patrickb It's just that really bad feeling in my stomach that there might be duplicate work happening. And I'd really like for this to be known by everybody involved so there is no nightmarish moment of noticing...
sena_kun patrickb, dunno, I was paying for the infra hosting nobody used anymore for months and nobody told me. 20:48
Which is not related, but duplicating happens. 20:49
patrickb sena_kun: We obviously need to get better at this.
sena_kun I think finanalyst did not announce anywhere they claim to be a _replacement_ or if they are working on a solution? 20:50
patrickb pings finanalyst again...
sena_kun There is this ticket: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/2910 <- migrate the website to Cro. I have it assigned for months now, nobody claimed otherwise. I did assign it to myself and I am do the solving.
github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3470 - convert static site to dynamic site, a ticket from 2017 (!), assigned to me. 20:51
I did it, nobody claimed otherwise.
github.com/Raku/doc/issues/1246#is...-719978640 <-
github.com/Raku/doc/issues/1090 - a ticket from 2016 (!), "docs.perl6.org design is LTA", I am assigned, nobody has claimed "Ok, I will fix it" or "Ok, can I help?". 20:52
patrickb Just to make sure: I don't - at all - want to put blame on anyone.
sena_kun Ah, no problem. 20:53
I am not mad or something right now, even if it seems like a ran.
I am just typing out my stance that there are means to communicate and I feel bad if it went the wrong way somewhere.
*like a rant 20:54
patrickb hugs sena_kun 20:58
sena_kun I was not wandering around saying I plan to re-take the website.... Except I was at colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...-06-08#l87
Maybe finanalyst can clarify, but I fail to see their project as a replacement rather than an alternative. It seems to have some cool features and hosted independently without any claims to replace the main website. 21:02
[Coke] sena_kun: (replace) ok, but it's using the existing docs repo as a base? (like, it's new infrastructure and styling, but mostly same raw content?) 21:05
sena_kun [Coke], except I re-imagined indexing, see github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/250, fixed a lot of hardcoding in underlying structures, it is truly dynamic (no generating static html files), yes, it used pod files from the doc repo as raw content. 21:07
I would also love to see versioning implemented, so that we had docs.raku.org/v1.1.3/foo#bar <- and this foo#bar will be frozen and never become 404 caused by someone's patching how paragraphs are named, because there is v1.1.3 bit. 21:08
patrickb sena_kun: He wasn't very verbal about his work, but I think he kept jmerelo informed. But I don't want to speak for others too much.
sena_kun But I am clearly not capable of heavy-lifting this bit.
patrickb I'm very thrilled about the versioning bit. I think we already had a conversation about this in some ticket... 21:10
sena_kun patrickb, yesh. There is a failing piece at github.com/Raku/doc/pull/3693 plus we have a more generic github.com/Altai-man/docs.raku.org/issues/6 21:11
patrickb, we also mentioned that in your classtut re-organiztaion, I think. The way it is done now, when you reword a paragraph and get a 404 is very LTA and should be one of our priorities, IMO. 21:12
Hmm, now the website takes 1.66G already, so it is clearly leaking. 21:13
patrickb leaking cro is a phenomenon I'm also observing.
sena_kun STATUS Up 8 hours is not bad for a 150 mb leak. 21:14
I guess I will restart the container a bit later.
patrickb in my case a ~50kb leak on each request, and ~2*gb* for a single request, should the connection be prematurely closed. 21:15
sena_kun one more reason to fix it then. :) 21:22
patrickb github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/4236 21:23
I basically worked around it for now by simply caching the page results... 21:26
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finanalyst @patrickb 21:32
tellable6 2021-02-10T12:07:18Z #raku <patrickb> finanalyst I just noticed all the work you have done in the area of pod rendering. Do you think it makes sense / is possible to integrate into one of our module webpages? 21:33
finanalyst @sena_kun: hello
patrickb o/
finanalyst patrickn: got your email
was on a zoom call 21:34
glad to continue the conversation about Raku-Docs
sena_kun finanalyst, o/
finanalyst sena_kun: i read a bit of the convo you had about the Raku docs. I agree with you 21:35
I got involved in Pod::To::HTML because of issues raised 21:36
the more I looked at Pod::To::HTML and Documentable, the more I hated them.
So, I started a redesign, but it was too extensive. I only started working on the Collection modules when I realised it could be more 21:38
patrickb I'm quite tired and off to bed now. Will backlog tomorrow. Good generic goodbye time everyone. o/
finanalyst patrickb: thanks for paying attention
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finanalyst sena_kun: I would love more than anything to cooperate and make things better. 21:39
sena_kun finanalyst, that would be awesome!
I think together it will be easier.
So there is now github.com/Altai-man/docs.raku.org/ and github.com/Altai-man/docs.raku.org/issues <- feel free to report things or pick up what you feel interested in. Maybe you can provide some expertise on github.com/Altai-man/docs.raku.org/issues/21 21:40
I hope we will be able to fix the most urgent things with the new website and do the replacement soon-ish (maybe in a couple of months if things go well, so every bit of help is awesome to get). Then we can close a great deal of doc issues, possibly attract more people with the new looks, address rest of the documentation tickets. 21:42
finanalyst sena_kun: I did not know there was a new website. No one has said anything. I regularly email JJ, but he said nothing 21:43
sena_kun finanalyst, well, the new website was announced today. But other than that there were tickets in the doc repo that demanded a new website and they were assigned to me. 21:44
finanalyst have you looked at raku.finanalyst.org ?
sena_kun finanalyst, yes, but as I wrote already it re-uses the inflexible old docs layout. 21:45
finanalyst I wrote Collection so that it would make new websites written on the top of POD6 content files easier
sena_kun finanalyst, did you intend it to be a replacement for the current doc website?
finanalyst It does not use Documentable at all.
sena_kun finanalyst, if it is a generic tool for people to generate static web pages out of pod, I think it can co-exist peacefully.
finanalyst Everything is done in templates and plugins.
Well it would be a shame to have spent several months full time on modules that could be used for the community and are then not used 21:47
I didn't develop Collection to take over Raku Docs, but if a new website is being contemplated, then
I would like my software to be considered
sena_kun finanalyst, I think it can be used to generate docs for various projects, which is clearly a bigger project than just the language doc. 21:48
finanalyst True, that was the aim. But if the language it is written in does not even consider it, .... 21:49
Why did no one ask me or tell me before?
sena_kun finanalyst, this goes the double way: if you wanted to replace the current website, why nothing noted at the existing tickets? 21:50
finanalyst But I have been keeping the people, viz. JJ and Liz updated about what I was trying 21:51
I looked at the issues in the current website. BUt they are related to Documentable and Pod::To::HTML
Also, everyone should know about my Pod::To::HTML plugin. I was told to change its name because it was causing name conflicts 21:52
sena_kun finanalyst, did you saw github.com/Raku/Pod-To-HTML/pull/80, github.com/Raku/Pod-To-HTML/pull/83? 21:53
finanalyst In addition, the Collection modules leverage the possibilitiess of POD6 far beyond what is currently used
sena_kun: no I did not see those issues
sena_kun finanalyst, mabye github.com/Raku/doc/issues/2910 or github.com/Raku/doc/issues/1246 or github.com/Raku/doc/issues/2508 or github.com/Raku/doc/issues/2429 or github.com/Raku/doc/issues/1090 ? 21:55
finanalyst sena_kun: those issues are a case in point. They relate to legacy Pod::To::HTML.
It needs completely rewriting, and based on a different design. I;ve done that
Collection will now render the entire Raku Docs website in less the a minute. 21:56
sena_kun finanalyst, if the issues are not considered valid by someone, this should be discussed and they can be closed or changed, not left open assigned to someone. 21:57
finanalyst In addition, my Pod::To::HTML replacement ran all the tests of the legacy Pod::To::HTML. And I have written above thirty more tests
sena_kun: there are several questions here. One is the issues with the OLD Pod::To::HTML, there are issues relating to Documentable. 21:58
Then there is the new topic of a new website
I did not know about a NEW website 21:59
If there is to be a new website, then I really would request that my work be considered.
Geth rakudo: gfldex++ created pull request #4248:
Introduce CX::Returning and use it to expose the payload of most control exceptions.
sena_kun finanalyst, I think your project is very relevant as a Doxygen-like Raku alternative. Which is pretty nice to have for every large Raku project from here and onwards. There is no obliganion the docs should be done this way, many langauges do it otherwise.
finanalyst I have written the software so that all the parts of the website are open and can be worked on by the comunity
The css for different pages can be different, the JS/JQuery can be linked to individual blocks. 22:01
Content can be pre-processed before rendering.
sena_kun finanalyst, is it dynamic or does it create static pages to serve? 22:02
finanalyst Either
sena_kun Erm, it can't be either or I am misunderstanding something.
finanalyst Currently, raku.finanalyst.org is based on static pages
The fundamental thing is that the content is in POD6 files. 22:03
Those files can be rendered into various types of end format. The distribution Collection-Raku-Documentation currently has plugins for a static HTML webiste 22:04
sena_kun finanalyst, there is a three years old request github.com/Raku/doc/issues/1246 asking to get rid of the static pages. Why not comment there that it is not relevant in your opinion?
finanalyst The other thing that the current website does not have is a way of specifying the pages that link all the pther pages
I think static websites are a good thing, but my point is the Collection software allows for multiple ways of rendering 22:05
For exaple, rendering into MarkDown, or into an epub book. 22:06
sena_kun finanalyst, doesn't it make it orthogonal (and superior, because it is much more generic) to the new website? 22:07
finanalyst The Collection-Raku-Documentation also includes a Cro server
sena_kun: if it is superior, then why can it not be CONSIDERED, at the least, as the basis of a NEW website? 22:08
After all, I have mimicked the old site. A new site would be much easier to buiid with more flexible software
sena_kun finanalyst, because there is a repository where people work on the documentation (both sources and the website). There are tickets with bug reports. People discuss things there and notify each other who works where. Before doing work people usually look up bug reports and notify what's being worked on. 22:10
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sena_kun If there is a separate project of making highly configurable pod into * processing, this is a separate project. 22:12
finanalyst sena_kun: it's late for me. I thought I had kept people in touch. No one, except Partickb thought to tell me
sena_kun: Pod6 is already configurable. No need for a separate project. 22:13
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finanalyst Just look at raku.finanalyst.org. Look at the Collection button. 22:13
I have written the WHOLE site in Pod6. The current site has an index page that is written in HMTL 22:14
I just hadn't realised how far the whole website project had gone. I am really quite disappointed. 22:16
I'll say goodnight before I say something really stupid.
sena_kun finanalyst, I deeply apologize.
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sena_kun The amount of efforts spent on getting Pod::To::HTML and Documentable in shape has clearly got me. What I was afraid of - bikesheeding over the implementation, in fact caught me up, which I deeply regret. 22:18
You work on something, then consider it deprecated and start to work on something better, but not stating anywhere that this "something" is deprecated and should be abandoned, so others keep struggle. And when they struggle up to make something, here is the break. Private conversations are private conversations, why not just drop a note at some ticket. Why not create a PR for Pod::To::HTML saying it is deprecated. 22:22
All of this considering these are two very differnet workflows which are independant of each other. They can be fused into one, but they can be not and this will be fine as well, because a generic tooling has more usages than a single website (which will be completely replaced in next say 5 years into something different). 22:25
sena_kun stopped the container 22:31
Geth rakudo: 08345f1d85 | (Christian Bartolomäus)++ | 10 files
Tweak some tests to work on JVM backend
rakudo: 8efbdab972 | (Vadim Belman)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | 10 files
Merge pull request #4230 from usev6/gh4191_make_test_jvm

Tweak some tests to work on JVM backend
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lucs (v.2.7.17) 23:57
Oops, ww