🦋 Welcome to the IRC channel of the core developers of the Raku Programming Language (raku.org #rakulang). This channel is logged for the purpose of history keeping about its development | evalbot usage: 'm: say 3;' or /msg camelia m: ... | Logs available at irclogs.raku.org/raku-dev/live.html | For MoarVM see #moarvm
Set by lizmat on 8 June 2022.
00:09 epony left 00:52 epony joined 02:37 epony left 03:56 vrurg_ joined 03:59 vrurg left 04:31 epony joined 05:09 patrickb left 05:37 epony left 07:08 epony joined 07:14 epony left 09:15 sena_kun joined
Geth rakudo/main: 61a87f0758 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/core.c/IO/Pipe.rakumod
Revert "Install workaround for R#5444"

This reverts commit b7def4aae0ad1d63013f1f1637bcb552dc266669.
It did not help.
linkable6 R#5444 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5444 [edge cases] REA Harvester occasional crash
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Geth rakudo/main: 9b179a5540 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/dispatchers.md
Initial stab at internally documenting dispatch handlers
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Geth nqp/main: 564cb03d05 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/bootstrapping.pod
Update IRC link for bootstrapping process
ab5tract Regarding Rust, it wouldn't be my preference for retrofitting MoarVM. 17:05
It's a seriously deep, complex language (not a bad thing, so is Rakue). That raises the barrier to entry for Raku devs who want to dip their toes into statically typed languages, maybe even for their first time. 17:10
I'd rather use Zig because it is a much simpler, more batteries-included systems programming language that allows for very fine granularity over memory management. 17:13
Not to mention incredible C integration. I'll have to check into how well `MVM_ROOT` and the rest of the MoarVM macros are handled but unless they are properly obscure, they might just translate to Zig without issue, as it can handle some level of C macro-fu. 17:16
jdv this whole conversation feels parrotish:(
ab5tract jdv: sorry to hear that
jdv lotsa real stuff is built in c. idk if that is a real problem. 17:17
ab5tract I'd say the contributor count to moarvm suggests otherwise 17:18
jdv hypthetically if the vm was written in $en_vogue_tech would it mean raku would be in a better place? 17:19
ab5tract my hypothesis is that if we were to see real forward momentum happening in moarvm, it would put Raku in a better place 17:20
funny enough, this conversation didn't feel parrot-ish to me until you brought your water pail to pour on it :) 17:21
Geth nqp/main: 082fb2d549 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 2 files
Add nqp::syscall, nqp::register, nqp::delegate ops

These are short-cuts for:
   syscall nqp::dispatch('boot-syscall', …)
   register nqp::dispatch('boot-syscall', 'dispatcher-register', …)
   delegate nqp::dispatch('boot-syscall', 'dispatcher-delegate', …)
This should hopefully make the dispatcher setup code in core, as well as in Rakudo, a lot better readable.
Also adjust most of the tests to use these new ops
nqp/main: 04dc665920 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 3 files
Use new syscall/register/delegate ops in dispatcher setup

This improves the readability of these internals significantly.
nqp/main: 2cc7e329f5 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 11 files
Rebootstrap to get new syscall/register/delegate ops
jdv pugs, Niecza, parrot. do we need another vm? 17:26
ab5tract I'm not talking about another vm 17:29
jdv make it so then!:) 17:34
Geth rakudo/main: a3645497bd | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | tools/templates/NQP_REVISION
Bump NQP to get new nqp::syscall/register/delegate ops
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Geth rakudo/main: 690c6c01ba | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/dispatchers.md
Add set-cur-hll-config-key dispatch key
rakudo/main: becb682e14 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 11 files
Use new nqp::syscall/register/delegate ops

Instead of their long nqp::dispatch(....) versions
nqp/main: f7451a8f0d | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | 2 files
Use new syscall/register/delegate ops in more tests
rakudo/main: bef0a9bfbf | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | src/Raku/ast/signature.rakumod
RakuAST: use new nqp::syscall op
nqp/main: df955144fd | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ops.markdown
Add preliminary docs for nqp::dispatch and friends
vrurg_ ab5tract: what real advantages Zig could bring in? 20:20
lizmat memory safety is one of them, i understand 20:21
Geth nqp/main: d06cf15ec0 | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | docs/ops.markdown
Fix two anchors in ops docs
vrurg_ lizmat: I don't see much of it. Introduction of optional type is helpful with this respect. But does it take care of double allocations? And, as I see it, concurrent access is yet to be fully manually managed. 20:25
lizmat ab5tract ^^ has looked into it way more than I did ^^ 20:26
vrurg_ I know. :) Just expressing what I found so far.
lizmat afk& done my hacking for today
vrurg_ lizmat: rest well today!
20:26 vrurg_ is now known as vrurg
vrurg My preliminary view on zig attempt would be: worth trying if it doesn't take too much resources. Otherwise Rust would provide more robust grounds both from safety perspective and from the perspective of potential user base. 20:28
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nine I somehow doubt that C is the real barrier here. There are tons of successful free software projects written in C out there. A different language might help in a few places, but really it wouldn't make developing MoarVM much easier. 21:14
Thing is, the problems MoarVM tries to solve are really, really hard. That's independent of the language the solution is written in.
vrurg nine: yes, and no. Ultimately, if moar to be started like today then the choice would be clear to me. But rewriting the existing codebase? Hell, no! Waste of time. 21:32
Voldenet `zig cc` could probably compile moarvm right now and zig fundamentally allows compile time execution 21:49
it's not bad of a choice, but it's difficult to say why it's better 21:53
there's some design decisions like Allocator or async that could simplify a lot of things 21:54
ab5tract Voldenet: it does indeed compile moarvm, I’ve got a branch with it working. 23:22
Voldenet it probably isn't significantly faster or anything like that 23:23
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Voldenet but lets you use zig painlessly 23:24
ab5tract Not at the moment, no.
It would also likely make Windows compilation an easier story, though I haven’t tested that hypothesis yet
Voldenet and probably other architectures too (if it works as advertised) 23:32