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vrurg patrickb: the reversal got the problem fixed together with Inline::Perl5. Sorry for the false alarm... :( 00:03
patrickz vrurg: No problem!
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patrickz I'm off to bed. o/ 00:29
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Xliff o/ 01:02
vrurg Xliff: o/ 01:03
Xliff vrurg: \o 01:06
01:14 Xliff left
Geth rakudo: vrurg++ created pull request #3348:
New problem solving 103		 01:20
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vrurg .ask pmurias Is there a known bug in JVM backend with nqp::hash()? I'm getting java.lang.NullPointerException and can't find a workaround. 02:11
tellable6 vrurg, I'll pass your message to pmurias
02:23 lucasb left
Geth rakudo/master: 67 commits pushed by (Vadim Belman)++
review: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/compare/2...15282630e6		 02:23
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lizmat Files=1292, Tests=109640, 210 wallclock secs (28.82 usr 8.12 sys + 2957.07 cusr 266.19 csys = 3260.20 CPU) 08:23
patrickb .tell AlexDaniel: I'm thinking about improving our rakudo release texts. Several people have wished for a short "only the highlights" text or list. Maybe adding a respective placeholder to github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/ChangeLog-Draft and github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...ncement.p6 might motivate people 08:24
to write a few words when they implemented something noteworthy. What's your thoughts on this?
tellable6 patrickb, I'll pass your message to AlexDaniel 08:25
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pmurias vrurg: when are you encountering that bug? 09:42
tellable6 2019-12-12T02:11:19Z #raku-dev <vrurg> pmurias Is there a known bug in JVM backend with nqp::hash()? I'm getting java.lang.NullPointerException and can't find a workaround.
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|Tux| nine++; Inline::Perl5 is working again 11:14
tyil :o 11:17
nice!
|Tux| Rakudo version 2019.11-258-g6c1528263 - MoarVM version 2019.07.1-403-g9442b1a7c
csv-ip5xs0.720 - 0.735
csv-ip5xs-206.376 - 6.684
csv-parser22.736 - 24.453
csv-test-xs-200.432 - 0.439
test7.402 - 7.577
test-t1.756 - 1.771
test-t --race0.819 - 0.826
test-t-2029.736 - 30.631
test-t-20 --race9.558 - 9.746
 11:20
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patrickb |Tux|: Actually it was vrurg that fixed Inline:Perl5 again... 12:26
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|Tux| vrurg++; # for good measure 12:44
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lizmat so what's the verdict wrt camelia? seems to be awol for a week now ? 13:49
m: dd "foo".Numeric
evalable6 Failure.new(exception => X::Str::Numeric.new(source => "foo", pos => 0, reason => "base-10 number must begin with valid digits or '.'"), backtrace => Backtrace.new)
lizmat m: dd "42foo".Numeric 13:50
evalable6 Failure.new(exception => X::Str::Numeric.new(source => "42foo", pos => 2, reason => "trailing characters after number"), backtrace => Backtrace.new)
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lizmat m: dd "".Numeric 14:07
evalable6 0
lizmat sorry for the noise, but you can't privmsg evalable6 :-( 14:10
you *could* camelia
tyil who used to host camelia?
AlexDaniel lizmat: you can also privmsg perlbot
tellable6 hey AlexDaniel, you have a message: gist.github.com/e4419243cbe40809de...0420bc45a1
AlexDaniel where is it though… 14:11
lizmat: you can also join #whateverable and use all the bots there 14:12
lizmat yeah, but that still would create linenoise for other people
that's why I like privmsg camelia so much
AlexDaniel #whateverable is mostly bots 14:13
lizmat I don't have to stash my code, and re-compile to see current behaviour
AlexDaniel patrickb: try it 14:15
patrickb: we'll see how it goes
vrurg pmurias: still around? 14:17
pmurias vrurg: yep 14:25
vrurg pmurias: I didn't managed to golf it down, but the location is src/Perl6/Metamodel/C3MRO.nqp, line 86 14:27
pmurias: It breaks build, as it turns out. Feels like a regression because a build as of a month-month and a half ago was passing. 14:28
Or something new is triggering it. 14:29
pmurias vrurg: that line itself is causing problems? 14:32
vrurg Any combination of storing two-level hashes into it. As a single statement, as it is now. Was replacing %!mro with $!mro. Was storing in a few consequent statements. Nothing helps. 14:34
pmurias: I even tried making it a single-level hash. 14:35
pmurias vrurg: where is the bug trigged? 14:41
vrurg pmurias: It happens when I build jvm backend on macos, fails on CORE.c building.
What I didn't test yet is linux build. 14:42
pmurias vrurg: the bug is caused when executing that line? 14:44
vrurg java.lang.NullPointerException in compute_mro (gen/jvm/Metamodel.nqp:1240) 14:45
There is a strange thing though: it always happens before returning from the method.
Because even when it was a multi-statement assignment, the error was pointing at the last statement. If I was commenting that out then the error pointed at the last uncommented one. 14:46
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vrurg pmurias: Linux build dies with the same error. So, it's not platform dependent. 14:55
pmurias vrurg: do you have a full stack trace? 15:08
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vrurg pmurias: gist.github.com/vrurg/8357c16c419c...0b31ad20f1 15:14
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vrurg Not for the Java side, of course. 15:15
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pmurias vrurg: if I checkout rakudo and run Configure.PL --backends=jvm --gen-nqp I should replicate the problem? 15:16
vrurg pmurias: No doubt. 15:17
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nine m: say "I'm back!" 15:19
japhb Well that's not too promising ... 15:20
camelia I'm back!
nine Just took a while to warm up :)
m: say "much faster now"
camelia much faster now
nine lizmat: ^^^ 15:21
lizmat whee!
:-)
nine Bad news is that I still do not have a clue what the issue was. This was at least the second time that the VM lost its network connection and only a reboot of the host solved it
lizmat nine++ # I presume ?
nine++ # indeed :-) 15:26
tyil nine: weird things happen all the time, it's not a biggie tbh 15:50
pmurias vrurg: I can reproduce it, I'll try to see what could be causing that 15:51
vrurg: the error is misreported 15:58
vrurg: I have to run and I'll look into it later but buy inserting say statements it seems that it's not that hash thing causing errors but something else 15:59
lizmat grrr.... so I have the situation that *every* spectest file fails during a make t/spec/foo/bar.t 16:01
but runs without problem with raku t/spec/foo/bar.t 16:02
only response:
Dubious, test returned 1 (wstat 256, 0x100)
No subtests run
suggestions on getting more info ?
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lizmat nine jnthn ^^^ ?? 16:21
jnthn lizmat: But `make spectest` itself works out fine? 16:22
lizmat nope, *all* tests-file fail with "No plan found in TAP output" 16:23
jnthn With local changes, or? 16:24
lizmat yeah, a rewrite of val() logic :-)
so there is no way to show the actual test output when doing "make" ? 16:26
vrurg lizmat: actually, it runs harness with `--verbosity=1`. 16:27
lizmat: and no redirections of any kind are used.
nine Needs TEST_JOBS=1
lizmat also for a single file make ??
nine oh, probably not in that case 16:28
lizmat but that *does* actually give me output :-)
and something I can use :-) 16:32
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patrickb I'd like to bring the topic of renaming rakudobrew -> rakubrew up again. 18:45
I'm on the last steps of a huge refactor of rakudobrew. The installation procedure will change, the update procedure will change. It will have a website. 18:46
So anyone migrating from previous rakudobrew to the new one will have to re-setup his installation.
Also all repositories will change because rakudobrew will move to its own github project. 18:47
I believe having it named rakubrew can help in reducing confusion, especially of newcomers. 18:51
Also (even though I think that's totally irrelevant) it's less typing. :-) 18:52
nine, tadzik, AlexDaniel, whoever wants to join the bikeshedding: ^ 18:53
vrurg patrickb: either you're ready to support more compilers if they ever come or it remains rakudobrew. I think it is as simple as this. :) 18:54
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AlexDaniel I don't think you need to be ready to support anything 18:54
at least that's what I understood from the last conversations regarding raku/rakudo 18:55
see github.com/perl6/problem-solving/issues/124
patrickb AlexDaniel: I agree it doesn't have much relevance at the moment. My biggest concern is that we are currently throwing around raku and rakudo at the same time. That causes confusion. 18:57
There is Ruby + rubyenv, perl + perlbrew + plenv, python + pyenv.
That's a concept people expect.
vrurg Calling it rakubrew will bring in even more confusion if it won't play well with other potential compilers. 18:58
patrickb People talk about Java. Rarely about Hotspot or J9.
vrurg patrickb: you miss the point that every project mentioned has one single implementation which is the language.
patrickb Ruby has a JVM implementation. Python has JVM and Pypy. 18:59
vrurg patrickb: ok, other way around: their executables are named after the language, after all.
patrickb Java has jenv 19:00
vrurg I'm find with rakubrew if it won't mind adding any new compiler would it ever pop up on the horizon. :)
*I'm fine
patrickb Same with raku. We do have a rakudo executable to help us stay clean once multiple implementations show up. But we do provide a `raku`. I'm very convinced that's what people will use. 19:01
vrurg patrickb: I already do. :D 19:02
patrickb vrurg: May I ask why? 19:03
vrurg Drifting away from perl6. Though I better be using rakudo because I often depend on internal implementation.
My new project specifically tests for 2019.11 compiler release. 19:04
patrickb I think renaming to raku will help a big deal in confusing people less, because they immediately understand that rakudo is related to raku.
^that statement was about the perl6 -> raku rename 19:05
vrurg Maybe. Anyway, `rakubrew -c 3rdparty-implementation` at some point if needed?
patrickb vrurg: I intend to have it support any relevant implementation that pops up. 19:06
I have actually added aliases build -> build-rakudo, download -> download-rakudo in my branch.
vrurg I can tell you another good reason why rakubrew is a good move in your case. It's easier to grasp that it has to be reconfigured. Everything new, you know...
Rename it. Period. Go for it! :D :D :D 19:07
I hope some tool like this would eventually replace rakudostar and will become the method by default for newbies. 19:08
patrickb I at least want this discussion to be noticed by tadzik and nine. They were part of the last iteration. I really don't want to just force the rename over tadzik.
vrurg: Did you see the staging rakudo.org website? 19:09
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patrickb vrurg: stage-rakudo.rakulang.site/ 19:09
It changes some aspects wrt rakudo star
sena_kun patrickb: I think if the old project will be archived with BIG RED SENTENCES about where to search for the new location, then no problems, no? 19:12
vrurg patrickb: sorry, my English betrays me here. I don't understand what you mean. :( 19:13
patrickb sena_kun: I'd think so too. We'll have to do that anyways as the repository changes in every case.
I think he's talking about the move of the repository / website. We'll have to add a note to the old repository / website to point to the new one. 19:14
sena_kun patrickb: if you are about renaming the repository, then pls no. creating a new one and pointing old->new is a nice way to do things without confusing everything. 19:15
patrickb sena_kun: I don't intend to rename.
Plan is to add a "rakubrew" project and a "App-Rakubrew" repository. 19:16
AlexDaniel patrickb: in a separate github org? 19:18
patrickb AlexDaniel: Yes
AlexDaniel why everyone wants to create a separate github org for every single project? What am I missing?
patrickb AlexDaniel: Where would you put it?
vrurg AlexDaniel: propose to use Raku org? I'd be in support of that. 19:19
AlexDaniel patrickb: github.com/Raku
vrurg patrickb: ^^^ :D
sena_kun increments using raku org for new projects
AlexDaniel yeah and also we should start moving stuff, I know I promised it before but I'm currently low on time
patrickb AlexDaniel: That would give it "official" character. That would a tiny bit stomp on alternative projects.
AlexDaniel patrickb: alternative projects can also be moved to Raku, I see no problem 19:20
patrickb There once was a pl6env project. I can't find any reference to it anymore. Seems the author has removed it completely including the repo.
sena_kun github.com/skaji/p6env <- this? 19:21
patrickb sena_kun: Thanks! Then I was wrong! I'm kind of relieved.
sena_kun yw
AlexDaniel I don't think that having everything in a single org stops anyone from doing anything 19:22
having stuff in different orgs is an everyday nuisance
sena_kun patrickb: about "official" character - from my point of view, making it under `raku` org itself makes it pretty official. and a separate org means it is something like a separate kind of tool.
AlexDaniel if you consider something to be your own project that you want to have full control of, then sure, fine 19:23
patrickb I don't have a very strong opionion on whether this gets it's own org or not.
AlexDaniel but otherwise /Raku should be the default location
tobs especially if you call it rakubrew, IMHO 19:27
patrickb Seems people favor having it in /raku. I'm ok with that. 19:29
Another bikeshedding topic: Any reason I should use a version number other than a single integer for rakubrew? (It's a Perl 5 project) 20:16
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vrurg patrickb: you mean `rakubrew --version` --> '10`? 20:29
patrickb I think that doesn't exist yet, not sure if `--version` is even needed. I'll mainly use it to guide the self-update process. Might also display it on the website. 20:31
I don't want to place a big emphasis on the version from the user perspective. They are meant to always just use the latest version. 20:32
vrurg patrickb: I'd stick to what Version understands. 20:33
patrickb vrurg: the raku Version class seems to be fine with integers. 20:37
m: my $v = Version.new: '1'; $v.Str
camelia ( no output )
patrickb m: my $v = Version.new: '1'; say $v.Str 20:38
camelia 1
vrurg patrickb: I meant Perl's Version. But it should be fine with it too.
patrickb vrurg: This? metacpan.org/pod/CPAN::Version 20:41
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vrurg patrickb: oh, sorry, it's just 'version', without the first capitalization. 20:43
patrickb I'm having a hard time finding documentation for it. metacpan.org/pod/version < this states 'version' was added in Perl 5.10. perldoc is silent about it... 20:45
vrurg patrickb: perl -wE 'use version; my $v = version->declare("1") works fine.
perldoc version – works for me.
patrickb vrurg: For me this returns the same documentation i just linked. Anyways, thanks for checking! 20:47
vrurg np 20:48
patrickb: what do you think about something like `rakubrew default` which would install what rakudostar currently installs? I.e. latest release, zef and a bunch of most useful modules. 20:49
patrickb I have implemented a 'download' that installs a precompiled rakudo which already includes zef. 20:50
I do oppose preinstalling modules slightly (and the entire rakudo star concept for that matter). It encourages not learning how to use a module installer and the ecosystem in general. 20:51
vrurg patrickb: Don't push on a user. Get him involved first. Give him an easy start. Most of them will proceed from the moment on. 20:53
patrickb Sidenote: That rakubrew download option takes about 3-5 seconds to get a raku installed and ready to use. (I'm using a local rakudo.org, so download times are minimal, but still). 20:54
vrurg Be like a drug dealer: give him the first dose free! ;)
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vrurg Best thing to do, from my point of view, is to install some bare bones set of modules. When installation is done print a message like "want more? Do 'zef install Module'" 20:55
patrickb vrurg: Thinking about it. Could call it 'install-star-bundle'. 20:56
vrurg Long and unclear. Must be short and easy to remember. `install-default`, `install-base`. But definitely not 'star' because my view is that rakudostar would be gone at some point. 20:57
patrickb I think we should keep the number of different module bundles as low as possible. Currently we only have the star bundle as a defined set of modules. 21:00
We might work towards a model similar to how perl handles it - having a very official base set of modules. 21:01
Then 'install-base' would be a fitting name.
But I don't like the idea of just throwing out another - different - module compilation. 21:02
vrurg patrickb: Try to step aside of own experience. Put yourself into shoes of a beginner. He needs a quick start, a playground. Give it to him! 21:05
Wether he'd stick with Raku after that or not – it's out of our hands. But if we push on him from the start to learn one thing after another – that'd might scary them away. 21:06
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Geth nqp: vrurg++ created pull request #591:
An attempt to fix nqp-runtime.jar dependency		 21:11
vrurg .ask pmurias Could you pls try and see if github.com/perl6/nqp/pull/591 fixes nqp-runtime.jar problem? 21:12
tellable6 vrurg, I'll pass your message to pmurias
lizmat m: BEGIN @*ARGS = "2*10**3"; sub MAIN(Int:D $a) { dd $a } # TIL I learned that this actually works 21:13
camelia IntStr.new(2000, "2*10**3") 21:14
AlexDaniel oh wow 21:18
moritz surprised
AlexDaniel then I guess the other crazy stuff works too
m: BEGIN @*ARGS = "-1/-2*-10**+10"; sub MAIN(Rat:D $a) { dd $a } 21:23
camelia RatStr.new(0.00000000005, "-1/-2*-10**+10")
lizmat yes... the wonders of val() 21:24
which I'm refactoring atm, should become at least 2x as fast
AlexDaniel
.oO( also 2x as incompatible (hopefully?) )
 21:25
just kidding :)
lizmat well, I think the Failures will become less informative in the sense that they only show where it went wrong 21:26
not what was expected
but that could still change :-)
m: dd <-1/-2*-10**+10> 21:29
camelia RatStr.new(0.00000000005, "-1/-2*-10**+10")
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AlexDaniel IIRC there are even weirder cases with complex numbers :) 21:31
lizmat m: dd <2*10**3+2*10**3i> # indeed 21:32
camelia ComplexStr.new(<2000+2000i>, "2*10**3+2*10**3i")
AlexDaniel m: dd <-2*-10**+3-2*-10**+3i> 21:35
camelia ComplexStr.new(<2000+2000i>, "-2*-10**+3-2*-10**+3i")
AlexDaniel there was also a bug somewhere letting you have the minus sign twice
maybe it's already fixed, I'm not sure
lizmat probably not... but who knows :-)
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lizmat is off to watch the BBC and get depressed :-( 22:01
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vrurg I wonder why rakudo still builds against moar 2019.07.1? 23:47

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