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Set by lizmat on 1 May 2021.
raydiak s:s/ a / / 00:00
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b2gills lizmat: I just noticed an issue with ValueType. It won't work properly with `.clone(:x(4))`. Something like `submethod CLONE { $!WHICH = Nil }` would be great if it worked. 00:26
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andinus is there a faster way to iterate over multiples of a number? 07:10
i'm doing `for $num, $num * 2 ... * {}`
`my $x = $num; loop { $x += $num };` ;; this is faster than above, better way to write this? 07:12
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japhb andinus: Make $x and $num ints? 08:06
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Geth doc: f20a83e0b9 | raydiak++ (committed by Juan Julián Merelo Guervós) | 13 files
Move from freenode to libera.chat

Also cleans up old links to #perl6/#perl6-dev Libera doesn't (yet?) have webchat on their site, so point to kiwi directly		 09:57
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Altreus Are we living here now? 11:55
leont I think we're still in transition 11:57
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frost Will we move here in the future? 12:09
never on the freenode? 12:10
ggoebel I'm no authority, but seems likely once the issues in making the transition get identified and worked out. 12:11
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tyil frost: moving requires some work, we're getting project registration done first, so we can be sure nobody else can lay a claim on the #raku channels and disrupt normal operations 12:14
after that we have bots and documentation to update
and possibly other things I haven't thought of yet
frost tyil oh, make sense. It seems that a lot of people don't know here. Anyway, thank you tyil. 12:17
tyil the matrix bridge on Libera isn't up yet is one of the other things I should keep in mind 12:20
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tbrowder if we move to libra chat i hope someone can help a barely-able-to-use-irc-now person (yosh) get there! 13:31
libera.chat (see what i mean) 13:33
sienet_ja_LSD[m] how do I join there from matrix/element? 13:34
#raku:irc.libera.chat is not accessible at this time.
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lizmat sienet_ja_LSD[m]: it's on the todo list of tyil 13:46
tyil I do hope the bridge itself will be set up by the Libera staff :'D 13:47
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tyil but yes, there's currently no bridge yet, Libera staff and Matrix staff will look into it once Libera itself is up and running proper 13:48
lizmat tyil++
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tonyo tbrowder: what irc client do you use? 14:05
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sienet_ja_LSD[m] nice, looking forward to it 14:17
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[Coke] bah, only ascii in nicks? 14:47
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[Coke] isn't the move to libera in jj's doc commit a little early? 14:48
Or is this coming from RSC or...?
also, it leaves some history which was true for freenode, but not libera. 14:49
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leont Yeah. I'm all for that change, but it should happen before we update the docs, really 14:51
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leont Then again, it already happened now 14:51
[Coke] "they discussed, on freenode." 14:53
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tbrowder irccloud 15:15
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andinus m: my @x = 1,2,3; for @x.kv -> $i, $id { next if $i == 0}; 15:16
camelia ( no output )
andinus is there a better way to do this ^?
i want it to skip first index but also return correct index numbers for the rest because i'll be using it
so @x[1..*] doesn't work 15:17
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[Coke] if I have a module that installs a bin file, if I do "foo -?" and get the usage, because I'm using rakubrew, I get the full path to the bin including rakubrew, even if I invoked as just 'foo' - any way to get this to automatically say 'foo' or do I need a custom usage? 15:25
tonyo m: my @a = qw<a b c d>; for @a.kv[2..*] -> $idx, $c { dd {:$idx,:$c}; }; 15:27
camelia Hash % = {:c("b"), :idx(1)}
Hash % = {:c("c"), :idx(2)}
Hash % = {:c("d"), :idx(3)}
andinus m: my @a = qw<a b c d>; for @a.kv[1..*] -> $idx, $c { say $idx, $c } 15:30
camelia a1
Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1

b2
c3
andinus m: my @a = qw<a b c d>; for @a.kv[2..*] -> $idx, $c { dd {:$idx,:$c}; }; 15:31
camelia Hash % = {:c("b"), :idx(1)}
Hash % = {:c("c"), :idx(2)}
Hash % = {:c("d"), :idx(3)}
andinus m: my @a = qw<a b c d>; for @a.kv[1..*] -> $idx, $c { dd {:$idx,:$c}; };
camelia Hash % = {:c(1), :idx("a")}
Hash % = {:c(2), :idx("b")}
Hash % = {:c(3), :idx("c")}
Too few positionals passed; expected 2 arguments but got 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
andinus oh
so instead of using the range on @a, we use it in on .kv ; makes sense, thanks 15:32
tonyo yea, 1..* gives you `a, 1, b, 2, c...` you need 2..* because after the .kv you have `0, a, 1, b ...` 15:45
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tyil that's what the irc spec says iirc 16:37
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Xliff Is there a more compact way of doing this? 17:43
tio.run/##ZY3BDoIwEETvfMWG9AAJEERF...C2j@Z0mMPw
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ugexe dunno, although makes me think Blob could use a method Buf (to enable coercions) 17:49
lizmat I was looking at that earlier today
it's not simple, as Buf and Blob are roles 17:50
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ugexe ah 17:51
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hankache hello #raku 17:53
lizmat hankache o/ !
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hankache hey lizmat 17:54
lizmat hope things are working out for you!
hankache all is good 17:55
how about you?
lizmat good to hear!
hankache I am living under a rock currently and not really following up on what's going on due to $dayjob 17:56
I was reading a bit about freenode vs. libera 17:57
are we moving there or staying here? 17:58
lizmat once things have been set up properly at libera.chat, we will probably move... 17:59
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leont Partypoopers 18:02
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lizmat dinner& 18:02
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Xliff Wait....the channel is moving? 19:31
Where can I read up on this?
lizmat Xliff: there's a good chance
Xliff: www.theregister.com/2021/05/19/fre...f_resigns/ 19:32
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Xliff lizmat: That's sad news. Thanks for the pointer. 20:03
lizmat yes, it is sad... 20:15
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jdv79 why wouldn't the chan move? i think perl moved y'day. 21:03
lizmat that could well be: we want to make sure *we'll* be in charge of the Raku channels before moving 21:04
jdv79 not sure why that would not be the case 21:08
but ok
raydiak I imagine they're buried in registration requests and we're waiting on a response to our e-mail to make sure it's formalized before we officially move...???... 21:10
jdv79 i guess the pottery people could try to lay a claim:) 21:11
raydiak :D
Grinnz essentially, the project list is copied from freenode, so the raku project exists there, staff will just have to assign appropriate project managers
in other words, it can't be squatted 21:12
as long as you trust staff :)
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jdv79 the people currently squatting are us but ok 21:13
Grinnz i mean the raku namespace as a whole
lizmat "assign appropriate project managers" 21:14
I think we need a clean break in that respect from the old freenode situation 21:15
which is buried in history
jdv79 yeah, i get it. odd that perl is less conservative than raku on the move.
Grinnz i would suggest the appropriate management would be those who currently manage the channels, and they can decide what to do wrt history
lizmat ops is ok, ownership is another matter 21:16
jdv79 its irc. does anyone really own anything?... though andrew lee seems to think so. 21:18
Grinnz to be perfectly clear: i think liz would be the appropriate management :P
lizmat I think you forgot a <sarcasm> there
Grinnz no, sincere 21:19
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raydiak wrt #perl they have very close ties to former freenode/now libera staff, so their needs may have been expedited, or they may have decided to just get it done and let formalities like namespace control be handled whenever staff catches up 21:24
lizmat fwiw, I just want to be sure that who-shall-not-be-named will not have *any* influence / say on any of the Raku channels 21:25
Grinnz I get that, and I don't think it will be a problem - he isn't on libera staff 21:26
and yeah there were a couple staffers in the perl community which expedited it somewhat in that case 21:27
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raydiak I'm more of the "just get it done" mindset, but it sounds like there are more political concerns at play than I'm aware of 21:28
and anyway I don't assume it's a community voting matter, I figure RSC is handling this in the way they see fit 21:29
lizmat the RSC is aware of it :-)
tyil++ is handling the registration
JJ already has updated references ready to be deployed 21:30
lizmat is ready to launch logging with the Raku based bot on the new channels: (for now they're just logged locally by yours truly, to be incorporated in the final logs later) 21:31
jnthn is also aware of it
raydiak speaking of RSC, next meeting was supposed to be over a month ago, but no minutes or other public information has been commited on github since April 6 covering the meeting on the 3rd 21:33
erm, that wording got a bit twisted up, but you get my meaning I'm sure 21:34
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lizmat raydiak: thanks for the nudge :-) 21:35
raydiak yw :)
lizmat last weekend's meeting got cancelled because two members couldn't make it
the minutes from the meeting before that should be published shortly 21:36
raydiak thanks ++lizmat :)
lizmat we're still learning to be a proper council :-)
raydiak I kinda wish there was more transparency there, the minutes are quite brief and (afaik) the public has no access to logs of actual conversations to understand the content and context. I can understand the need for discresion in certain specific cases, but in general it kinda gives things a "you aren't in the in-crowd" feeling, which I assume is very much the opposite of what we intend 21:43
we used to talk about nearly everything out in the open on public IRC, but now the rooms are very quiet more often than I remember them being in years past. I get the impression that discussions and decisions both social and technical seem to happen...somehwere else 21:44
lizmat well, the whole move from freenode to libera has only been discussed here on channel
there's not been an official meeting / decision on that from the RSC 21:45
so you could argue the actions taken so far have been actions of individuals who happen to be on the RSC
raydiak: does that make sense ?
once we are sure that we have control over the channels on libera.chat 21:46
it makes sense to create a problem-solving issue and PR for people to comment / vote on 21:47
raydiak yes I understand. but I'm not so focused on that one specific point now, as a general feeling that things around here may have changed and closed up a little bit in the years I was gone. it is completely possible that I'm mistaken and imagining things that aren't there, though 21:48
lizmat it's a bit similar to: perhaps it's a good idea to use the "raku.foundation" domain to put a website of a Raku foundation
but you better make sure you already have that domain, otherwise you won't :-)
well... the rename has left deep scars 21:49
since then, an individual made life for some core developers so stressfull, that they left the community for the most part for several months 21:50
fortunately for us, they returned
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raydiak the one who was ejected from the RSC? 21:52
lizmat indeed
so, yes, things have changed a bit... 21:53
raydiak that's useful context for me to at least start to understand, thank you. I keep romanticising about "glory days" when TimToady was around and everybody talked about everything in the same public channel because that's where he was 21:55
lizmat well, that's the other thing
TimToady, for all practical purposes, is no longer around 21:56
jnthn is very hard trying to play the architect role
pmichaud occasionally writes an answer on the mailing list 21:57
very occasionally
raydiak I keep wanting to ask why he's gone, but when he comes up a lot of people seem to get quiet, so I haven't asked
lizmat and TheDamian has not been involved really for a *looong* time either
in the end, you would need to ask him 21:58
in my opinion: the naming issue and the community's reaction to the suggested alias, stressed TimToady completely into a burn-out 21:59
sienet_ja_LSD[m] :o
raydiak that's actually a bit of a relief. I imagined serious medical issues or something 22:00
lizmat raydiak: apart from his final consent to the name *change* after my problem-solving issue, I don't think he has looked at anything related to Perl / Raku or anything like that
I've been told he doesn't look at his email
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lizmat I hope that TimToady will be able to come back at some point, but I'm working on the assumption that he's enjoying his well-earned retirement 22:02
permanently
jdv79 i'm with raydiak in that it seems less stuff is public. some of it might just be less peeps involved these days.
lizmat perhaps "indefinitely" would be a better wording :-)
raydiak lizmat: fair enough 22:03
lizmat there are definitely fewer peeps involved
raydiak yes, I have been trying to figure out how much of what I'm perceiving is a lack of activity, and how much of it is that some activity has moved to less open forums
lizmat and some more of the old guard have basically left: masak moritz
well, there's more production work going on:
one of the reasons I've not been committing as much to the Rakudo core, is that I have been busy with setting up a website for Raku IRC logs 22:04
https:://logs.liz.nl shows the work so far
logs.liz.nl rather :) 22:05
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lizmat I hope to work that into a. a good utility for people interested in Raku, and b. a nice example of what you can do in Raku and Cro 22:05
jdv79 really? masak and moritz are gone? i've seen moritz around i think. 22:06
lizmat and c. maybe have other communities use it as a solution for their IRC logging needs
moritz is still around for sure, but not really involved in any day-to-day maint or development
so yes, he's still around, but lurking 22:07
same for masak to an extent, although he has to deal with the Great Wall of China to get onto IRC nowadays
so that doesn't make things easier 22:08
jdv79 ouch 22:09
raydiak I noticed masak's absence. looked him up on github, seemed like he was doing haskell and lisp and stuff. he always had some interesting takes on abstractions and metaprogramming and such. noticed moritz around here and there, but definitely not as much, was one of the various reasons I thought maybe activities had moved to less public places
lizmat and the pandemic isn't helping: there basically hasn't been an in-person gathering since the conference in Riga in 2019 22:11
that's now 21 months ago 22:12
well, correction: some of us met at the GPW 2019, just before the lockddown 22:13
so that's more like 14 months, but still
brrt and samcv have been absorbed by $work, and/or other obligations 22:14
jdv79 people seem to disappear into booking
like apple
lizmat well, yes, been there, done that :-) 22:15
jdv79 hah
lizmat otoh, without booking, I wouldn't have been able to do what I have been doing for the past 9 years
( I left on April 1, 2012)
jdv79 have a good night! being told its dinner time&
raydiak you'd think the pandemic would have had everybody at home contributing more, but I can see the lack of in-person "buzz" being a thing 22:16
g'night jdv79 o/
only ever made it to one conference in my life, but raku wasn't there. happened to be working events for a while in between real jobs in Austin when OSCON was there
lizmat raydiak: good chance we met then ?
raydiak I don't think so. always would have liked to meet y'all rakoons in person. as event crew, my participation was mostly limited to going out and saying hi at the tiny perl table for a few minutes on the first day 22:20
lizmat well... the tiny Perl table was "manned" by Wendy and me most of the time :-) 22:21
raydiak sadly I can't recall names or faces, but I'm pretty sure you weren't there, I was specifically looking for people I'd chatted with or I knew were involved in perl 6. I just remember there being a couple names I recognized from my perl 5 years but nobody I'd known personally, and talking to some very exuberant talkative guy :) 22:24
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raydiak it was really really early on, like we'd just laid the carpets and hung the drapes and moved in the furniture earlier that day 22:25
lizmat ok, well, if there were people there, Wendy (woolfy) was probably one of them
Altreus is rakoons an official name? :P 22:26
lizmat it's what some people use. and what is used on /r/rakulang 22:29
I like it :-)
"A group of raccoon is formally known as a gaze or a nursery. Raccoons have somewhat complex social dynamics." 22:30
raydiak lizmat: possibly. it would have been 4ish years ago, my memory of the brief encounter is quite vague. I don't think I'm familiar with her. I've heard people mention her, but I don't see her here. truth be told, this here is all I know of the people. I recognize you more by IRC handle than anything else :)
lizmat woolfy burned out because of the continuous flak coming from the Perl community, and decided to call it a day after the rename 22:31
having spent several years trying to promote Perl in general, and Perl 6 in particular, having to start over with a new name was too much for her 22:32
raydiak I can see arguments either way with the name, and reasons to care, but it surprises me that people took it to such destructive extremes 22:33
Altreus Wendy was always nice to me 22:34
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Altreus She gave me free Perl6 wine because FOSDEM was ending and there was loads left 22:34
lizmat yeah.. that's just one exampleL what to do with "Perl 6" wine when the language is called "Raku" 22:35
Altreus oh well it was perl6 back then
lizmat we also still have piles of Perl 6 books in the basement, which are more and more becoming worth the price of paper 22:36
not to mention the Perl books we still have :-(
Altreus :(
that must be frustrating
lizmat or the fact that we still have the largest library of Perl books in the world
and I walk past it every time I walk from the office to the kitchen and back 22:37
yeah, frustrating and a constant reminder
Altreus it may be advisable to relegate them to the forever bin
raydiak why did we rename if there was so much adversity to it? just too much pressure from p5 people? 22:38
lizmat choosing the least of two evils, really 22:39
and I chose
Altreus the pressure from both sides seeme fairly even to me, as a vague observer
lizmat and in the end, people agreed with me
well, most of them 22:40
looking at recent events in the Perl community, I think it was the right choice
leont Choosing the least of two evils does sound like an accurate description 22:42
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lizmat I recently described it as such: "Raku *is* what the future of Perl *was*, Perl 7 is still Perl" 22:44
and I feel, that also applies to the communities 22:46
especially wrt Larry's view on re-making the community as well
leont He has a skill for bringing people together 22:51
lizmat anyways, I've just did a massive refactor of App::IRC::Log to prepare it for a real release, 22:52
and it's getting to 1am, so I'm going to sleep on it, and do the release tomorrow :-)
sleep&
raydiak thanks for the historical context lizmat. sleep well 22:53
Altreus nn 22:56
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