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Set by lizmat on 8 June 2022.
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tonyo . 02:34
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jjatria lizmat: that issue that melezhik reported on HTTP::Tiny seems to actually be down to an error message that became less clear with github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6a...905949d1e6 when you do eg. `Blob.new(Nil)` 09:03
tellable6 2022-06-14T22:43:00Z #raku <melezhik> jjatria I am having problem with running HTTP::Tiny put method 09:04
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patrickb Is SetHash meant to be iterable? 10:39
Nemokosch Why wouldn't it? 10:40
lizmat m: dd SetHash ~~ Iterable
camelia Bool::False
lizmat it's not, making it Iterable introduces all sorts of issues...
I forget which ones exactly atm, but I recall it was a mess
none of the QuantHashes are Iterable 10:41
Nemokosch wait wait wait
patrickb OK. Then I'm happy.
lizmat I suggest adding "does Iterable" to role QuantHash and watch the fallout
patrickb for $sh.keys isn't that much to type. Just need to remember adding the `.keys`. 10:42
lizmat if you want the keys, and not Pairs, you'd have to do that anyway
Nemokosch Set is Setty 10:43
Setty does QuantHash
10:44 Nemokosch joined
Nemokosch m: my $test = SetHash.new: 1, 2, 5, 7; .say for $test; 10:45
camelia SetHash(1 2 5 7)
Nemokosch m: my $test = SetHash.new: 1, 2, 5, 7; .say for $test.Set;
camelia 1 => True
7 => True
5 => True
2 => True
Nemokosch ++WAT
lizmat QuantHashes *do* have an iterator method 10:46
m: say 42 ~~ Iterable
camelia False
lizmat m: .say for 42
camelia 42
Nemokosch Why wouldn't a SetHash iterate as a Set? 10:47
But tbh none of this is as weird as Arrays inheriting from Lists
that's a dirty hack
and if Arrays inherit from their immutable counterparts, the expectation would be that this stands for the Hash suffixed types as well, to be at least consistent 10:48
lizmat Nemokosch: don't get me started on that
thing is that you could consider Arrays also as lists, because they have a container *bound* to their elements 10:49
Nemokosch although I think it would be overall better if Arrays just didn't inherit from Lists
lizmat which gives it the suggestion of mutability 10:50
Nemokosch There are just so many gotchas related to the concept of containers and list containers in particular 10:51
since the fundamentals are not subject to change anymore, at least the side effects should be reduced... 10:52
If Arrays should descend from Lists for whatever reason, at least so do the other mutable compound data structures descend from their immutable counterparts... 10:53
lizmat FWIW, I *do* think some fundamentals *are* subject to change
but not in the coming year(s)
Nemokosch also, I suppose you know much more about this than I do... is it possible to make scalar-style assignments to @variables ? 10:54
or all you have is binding and the .STORE based assignment
lizmat binding and .STORE based assignments 10:55
if you ask "is it possible to make scalar-style assignments to @variables?" you still don't grok that that is impossible :-) 10:56
Nemokosch well, ouch
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lizmat just as an array is an Array object 10:56
which you can bind to an @-sigilled lexpad entry because it is Positional 10:57
a scalar variable is a Scalar object, which you can **not** bind to a @-sigilled lexpad entry because it is *not* Positional 10:58
Nemokosch I think this will bite many more people in the long run
lizmat what exactly?
Nemokosch this abstraction that relabels "normal variables" as "scalars" 10:59
taking away the certainty that you can assign to a variable
this is why for example swapping two @variables turns into hell
lizmat well, if you go native, you have the assurance you can assign
Nemokosch this is why having a @variable in $_ also breaks the expectations if you try to assign to it 11:00
what does "go native" mean? Not the first time I hear this "native" stuff :) 11:01
sienet_ja_LSD[m] write in nqp ?
lizmat m: my int $a = 42 11:02
camelia ( no output )
lizmat then you don't have scalar containers... just memory pretending to be Scalar :-) 11:03
Nemokosch Okay but isn't this a bit like saying "everything can be done in Fortran; if it cannot be done in Fortran, it can be done in assembly (...)" 11:05
lizmat m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; my @c := @a; @a := @b; @b := @c; say @a; say @b # swapping arrays
camelia [a b c]
[1 2 3]
lizmat Nemokosch: ^^ what is the problem with swapping arrays? 11:06
Nemokosch That it's unreasonably wordy. Had you had scalars, you could do ($a, $b) = ($b, $a)
you need to take a different route because of an abstraction that threw some of your variables to a swamp 11:07
meanwhile in Python, you can always just have a, b = b, a 11:08
and in C, you always know the temp variable solution would be the best - in return, you can mess with the memory adresses directly and reduce the costs
lizmat m: my ($a,@b) = 1,2,3; dd $a, @b # do you want this to work ? 11:09
camelia Int $a = 1
Array @b = [2, 3]
Nemokosch I would rather this not work, if the cost is to break (@a, @b) = (@b, @a) 11:10
lizmat well... I guess that decision was made *long* ago :-)
Nemokosch anyway, it flattens implicity that is not nice
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Nemokosch something like ($a, *@b) = 1, 2, 3 makes more logical sense 11:11
lizmat agree
Nemokosch also, long ago? before the list rework or after? :P
before it could make sense, after... much less so
SmokeMachine m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; :(@a, @b) := @b, @a; say @a; say @b 11:12
camelia [a b c]
[1 2 3]
lizmat but I'm afraid the ($a,@b) = 1,2,3 behaviour was decided on before there even were slurpies
but yeah, you could argue that this behaviour was missed in the Great List Refactor
anything like that would need to be fixed at a language level 11:13
Nemokosch I'm not 100% sure but
I had the impression that (@a, @b) = (@b, @a) could still have a better behavior, with a different implementation around the STORE call 11:14
but for that I should know where exactly do the objects on the left handside turn into one thing
lizmat well, they're a List 11:15
basically, you'd be changing the List = List semantics
sienet_ja_LSD[m] that ($a,@b) = 1,2,3 is very LISPish 11:16
Nemokosch I think vrurg said something about the calls, if not it had to be Jonathan himself
iirc it was something like, once you reach a @var on the left handside, it will STORE everything remaining on the right handside 11:17
so yes you are right I guess 11:18
long story short, 95% of cases, I'd always like to see the "scalar behavior" 11:19
because that's what I've always known and meant by "variable"
if a @var is reached, it would act a bit like a "voluntary single argument rule" 11:20
if the RHS starts with a Positional, STORE that, otherwise eat them up, or idk
lizmat m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; ($@a, $@b) = ($@b, $@a); # maybe this should be made to work
camelia Cannot assign to a readonly variable or a value
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Nemokosch just a random thought
lizmat m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; (@a, @b) := (@b, @a); # or maybe better: this 11:21
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Cannot use bind operator with this left-hand side
at <tmp>:1
------> 33; my @b = <a b c>; (@a, @b) := (@b, @a)⏏; # or maybe better: this
sienet_ja_LSD[m] m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; (@a, @b) = $@b, $@a; 11:22
camelia ( no output )
SmokeMachine m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; :(@a, @b) := (@b, @a) # Why not use this?
camelia ( no output )
lizmat SmokeMachine++ # duh! 11:23
SmokeMachine m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; :(@a, @b) := @b, @a; say @a; say @b
camelia [a b c]
[1 2 3]
sienet_ja_LSD[m] hehe
lizmat I keep forgetting you can use destructuring like that :-) 11:24
Nemokosch can you bind as many times as you wish? 11:28
SmokeMachine Nemokosch: what do you mean? 11:29
@a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; my ($c, %d) :(@a, $c, @b, %d) := @b, 42, @a, { :13a }; say @a; say @b; say $c; say %d 11:31
m: @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; my ($c, %d) :(@a, $c, @b, %d) := @b, 42, @a, { :13a }; say @a; say @b; say $c; say %d
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '@a' is not declared. Perhaps you forgot a 'sub' if this was
intended to be part of a signature?
at <tmp>:1
------> <BOL>⏏@a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; my ($c, %d)
SmokeMachine m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; my ($c, %d) :(@a, $c, @b, %d) := @b, 42, @a, { :13a }; say @a; say @b; say $c; say %d
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
You can't adverb my ($c, %d)
at <tmp>:1
------> = <a b c>; my ($c, %d) :(@a, $c, @b, %d)⏏ := @b, 42, @a, { :13a }; say @a; say @b
SmokeMachine m: my @a = 1,2,3; my @b = <a b c>; my ($c, %d); :(@a, $c, @b, %d) := @b, 42, @a, { :13a }; say @a; say @b; say $c; say %d
camelia [a b c]
[1 2 3]
{a => 13}
Nemokosch the more I read back, the more I get the impression that this :() just went straight unnoticed or forgotten, whenever this came up 11:37
lizmat Nemokosch: and you'd be right :-)
Nemokosch Not just here, also at the issue I opened for this half a year ago :v 11:38
I can't get it working, though... 11:39
SmokeMachine Nemokosch: what are you trying to do?
Nemokosch the exact same thing 11:40
> Lexical with name '@a' does not exist in this frame
SmokeMachine Nemokosch: with that same code? 11:42
Nemokosch moment
I think it was the REPL being a potato
m: my @a= 1, 2, 3; my @b= 7, 8, 9; :(@a, @b) := (@b, @a); print '@a is: '; dd @a; print '@b is: '; dd @b; 11:44
camelia @a is: Array @b = [7, 8, 9]
@b is: Array @a = [1, 2, 3]
Nemokosch a bit funny though
lizmat yeah.. Array object knows it's own name 11:46
and *that* wasn't changed when you swapped themm 11:47
Nemokosch I think this is a quite good workaround, although still a workaround to me 11:48
lizmat fwiw, I have a "did you know" item for next week's Rakudo Weekly News 11:53
Nemokosch nice :D
lizmat also clickbaits rakudoweekly.blog/2022/06/14/2022-...ence-2022/
Nemokosch ACTION tries to wrap his head around this irc stuff 11:55
rip xD
jast close, but as I recall it needs to be wrapped in \001 bytes
Nemokosch  ACTION gives up 11:56
Nemokosch gives u
jast i.e. PRIVMSG #raku :
i.e. PRIVMSG #raku :\001ACTION says hi\001
not literal "\001" of course 11:57
Nemokosch how would I get \001 anyway
doesn't sem to be worth the fuss
SmokeMachine sorry, what are you trying to do? 11:58
jast that's why most IRC clients have a command for it :)
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Nemokosch back to diss cord 11:58
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SmokeMachine thinks it's something like this? 11:58
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jast correct 11:58
/me is implemented internally as a CTCP ACTION message
Nemokosch got the ticket for the conference... 12:00
if it will be as good as it was last year, already worth it 12:02
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johnjaye has anybody compiled raku for freebsd? the top google i hit is outdated 13:05
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Nemokosch I wonder, does rakubrew not work for freebsd? 13:17
johnjaye i don't know what that is. is that like brew for mac?
also it may not even be supported. the website refers to building for "linux" or for windows 13:18
Voldenet I have not, but makefile.in suggests that moarvm can be compiled under freebsd
Nemokosch it refers to "unix-ish" 13:19
I'd give it a go
johnjaye what is moarvm? i observed that Configure.pl existed for different subsystems. moarvm, rakudo, and nqp 13:20
i also see 3 temporary directories have been created. i assume one for each of those to build
Voldenet to compile raku from scratch you need 3 things: moarvm, nqp and rakudo
Nemokosch moarvm is the underlying virtual machine 13:21
Voldenet github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM github.com/Raku/nqp github.com/rakudo/rakudo/
Nemokosch anyway, for what particular reason would one want to compile from scratch?
johnjaye because it doesn't exist if i don't do that? 13:22
Nemokosch as I said: just install rakubrew, run `rakubrew download` and profit 13:23
or at least try it
literally 5 minutes to lose
johnjaye hmm the linux package is not as large as i thought. only 60MB? 13:24
tried on my raspi and it has a 'rakudo' package. but this machine is freebsd which is why i asked 13:25
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Nemokosch I think packaged versions are often outdated 13:27
maybe guifa knows more about what exists and what doesn't? 😄
but from what I learned, rakubrew is the way, if you do not require a premade package
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johnjaye ok. after the build finishes or fails i'll try that 13:28
it's using perl to build raku modules? it's on 3rdparty/mimalloc right now
Nemokosch probably 13:29
Voldenet rakubrew is just using perl to fetch git repos, run makefiles and so on 13:30
oh, and Configure.pl is in perl 13:31
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Nemokosch so yeah, it pretty much does the build for you, haha 13:31
and it indeed wouldn't hurt if it worked properly on FreeBSD
Voldenet otoh if it doesn't work on FreeBSD then it's likely not rakubrew's fault 13:32
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Nemokosch if the creator paid attention to which shell to invoke and mundane stuff like this 13:33
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johnjaye well. is rakubrew not part of raku? 13:35
the rakustar tarball i downloaded explicitly checks for bash. which is good as freebsd does not use bash as the default shell
Nemokosch khm, having to write shell that runs under Debian 9 and Solaris 8...
johnjaye it uses something like tsch for root and a sh-clone for sh 13:36
johnjaye wonders how to check for shell if $SHELL is not defined
Nemokosch I don't know how much Rakudo Star is still maintained 13:37
rakubrew is a little tool that the community likes, I don't think it's "official" in any sense
it reminds me of fpcupdeluxe in the Free Pascal world 13:39
except it's much simpler
johnjaye is raku star not the official build method? 13:40
it says so in the readme.
haha. funny you mention free pascal. i was playing with it last week and couldn't get lazarus to build.
(this was on linux)
El_Che that's wrong then 13:41
johnjaye another funny thing is that by default the 'fp' ide can't compile anything. because it can't read pascal unit files correctly or something. you have to invoke fpc directly
El_Che the official way is just configure, make test and make install
johnjaye El_Che: i went to the website, clicked through a few windows, then on a tarball
well not exactly. i scroll down to where it said raku star since i read that was the complete bundle 13:42
was i supposed to click on the main tgz file?
El_Che johnjaye: a bourne script of how I build the linux packages: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg/blob/m...s/build.sh 13:43
johnjaye that's a big script. lots of paths 13:44
i can kind of see why people use docker even if i disagree with it 13:45
El_Che yeah, it's for "all" the linux distros :)
johnjaye what does --relocatable do
El_Che relocatable means you can copy the rakudo lib to somewhere else and it will keep working 13:46
Nemokosch Oh right sorry, El_Che is the builder 😄
El_Che "Yes we can!" 13:48
Nemokosch I don't even know the "fp ide"
johnjaye it's a recreation of the turbo vision ide from the 80s that shipped with the original ibm pc 13:51
ok i found rakubrew. running as root in tcsh it said i needed a shell line in my .profile. not sure what that means. i ran ~/.rakubrew/bin/rakubrew mode shim and then ~/.rakubrew/bin/rakubrew available 13:52
it said no binary for freebsd is available so run 'rakubrew build' which i did. 13:53
Nemokosch so where are we now? 13:54
johnjaye receiving objects, 30000/96000. 13:55
by the way the compilation from raku star succeeded. i could run raku from the build directory. i think i wasn't root there so it failed to install fully
but i'm running root now. freebsd has this oddity where root and ordinary users have different default shells (tcsh and sh resp)
Voldenet iirc rakubrew uses perl's system for everything 13:57
johnjaye this is freebsd 13 by the way. i like the rakubrew procedure mostly. didn't get what it meant by 'mode shim' exactly
Voldenet: so did raku star i believe
or at least to do something.
i thought raku and perl5 were totally separate in terms of dependencies
Voldenet though the whole procedure is just fetching 3 repos, doing `perl Configure.pl ; make ; make install` on them 13:58
johnjaye is that Configure.pl step from rakubrew or rakudo itself?
Nemokosch depends on what you call a "dependency"
Voldenet perl5 is only necessary to build raku, it's convenient since perl5 is everywhere 13:59
johnjaye yeah i've noticed that. i use mac and windows also and i think they both have perl by default? not sure but mac does 14:00
kind of surprised how much out there still depends on just plain perl5
Nemokosch one can say that building itself is not exactly bootstrapped
The software we are deploying also uses quite a lot of perl for building in particular 14:01
johnjaye well that's probably most systems though right. if a compiler compiles itself that's not bootstrapping if i understand the term right?
bootstrapping would be like you make some x86 which compiles the c compiler which compiles the build compiler which compiles the compiler
Nemokosch well I'd think one indirection is enough 🤷‍♂️ 14:02
anyway, raku is generally not used to build raku 14:03
from what I've seen
johnjaye i was talking to someone from nix or guix or something and they were explaining how bootstrapping "really" works
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Voldenet fundamentally it's possible to build raku with gcc only though 14:07
Nemokosch and then build gcc with raku? 😂 14:08
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SmokeMachine Nemokosch: I think it's possible: github.com/FCO/GccJit 14:17
tellable6 SmokeMachine, I'll pass your message to Nemokosch
Voldenet what ಠ_ಠ
but wait a moment, you need gcc to build libgccjit 14:18
SmokeMachine bootstrapping... :P
Nemokosch 😂 14:19
SmokeMachine (sorry, that was a joke...) 14:20
Voldenet Btw, I wonder if moarvm would compile with zig cc 14:25
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johnjaye SmokeMachine: i'm not exactly sure what that is. it seems it's defining gcc jit data types in a raku file? 14:31
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johnjaye hrm. it installed it to /root/.rakubrew/versions/moar-2022.6/install/bin/rakudo 14:37
admittedly that's fine for someone like me who knows how to use the find command. but is that really the intended final installation?
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El_Che what you put in your profile adds the path to your PATH probably 14:42
(I don't use rakubrew, but tools work like that most of the time: paths or symlinks) 14:43
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Anton Antonov <@886919719066697749> Please, be careful what you are joking about... 14:46
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[Coke] rakubrew allows you to have multiple versions installed, and it manages which one you get. the shell setup puts it's wrappers in your path first. 14:46
Anton Antonov (That was a joke.)
[Coke] You shouldn't be running that version directly.
(e.g. you can use 'rakubrew switch <other version>' and then run 'raku' directly without having to know where that specific version is) 14:48
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johnjaye yeah but was i supposed to put something in my profile? 15:21
the terminal scrolled up too far i think for me to see what it said
[Coke] rakubrew.org has instructions 15:22
johnjaye i know. i'm reading them. 15:26
ah ok. so it was tcsh biting me again 15:30
once i switch to bash on the root console then I can run /root/.rakubrew/bin/rakubrew init Sh and my $PATH is updated correctly 15:31
so actually i didn't need to be root at all if it's installing to a local directory anyway. and then that command would have worked better
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melezhik . 15:58
tellable6 2022-06-14T23:14:15Z #raku <jjatria> melezhik interesting! I'll take a look. Thanks for the report!
melezhik .tell jjatria see my last comment - gitlab.com/jjatria/http-tiny/-/iss..._992887644 15:59
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to jjatria
melezhik I am not sure if this is Rakudo issue ...
jjatria melezhik: So when you do `Blob.new($d)` you get a Blob back? 16:00
melezhik what do you mean? sorry 16:01
yes, look like Blob.new("/path/to/file/".IO.slurp) fails 16:02
jjatria From what I can tell, the error is being raised when you build the Blob, not when you call `put`
melezhik I am not sure how can I convert content of binary file into blob
yes, I see
jjatria I think you're fine doing `$file.IO.slurp: :bin`
melezhik ahh, ok 16:03
let me try
jjatria I could be wrong, but I think that's all you need
melezhik that works! thanks
you can close the issue
jjatria Woo~ :tada:
melezhik it'l be good by the way to add this to your examples/ 16:04
when someone wants to PUT a binary file
jjatria I can add it as a note on gitlab.com/jjatria/http-tiny/-/blo...inary-data 16:06
melezhik yes, exactly! thanks 16:07
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Voldenet : my \_ = False; loop (;_;) { } 16:39
m: my \_ = False; loop (;_;) { }
camelia ( no output )
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Nemokosch hey, what are you doing again 17:10
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melezhik . 17:39
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thowe Is anyone working on a project in Raku that is targeted at users who don't necessarily care about the language it is written in? And I mean, is meant to be run/hosted by those users... not just presented as a service or web site. 23:07
Maybe I should say "Other than sparrowdo" which is the one thing I know of that may qualify 23:08
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