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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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razetime from the nicklist, seems like no. 09:19
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whoami53 kek, irc working 10:18
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Nemokosch re: smartmatch and S/// 10:22
m: say 'asd' ~~ Match.new 10:23
camelia 「」
Nemokosch I tried to be dramatic and this behavior seems "dramatic enough" 10:24
I can't pass anything to it that wouldn't just return the RHS match object 10:25
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Nemokosch even if it's another match object 10:25
m: 'lol' ~~ /o/; say $/; say $/ ~~ Match.new; 10:26
camelia 「o」
Nemokosch now this goes beyond if I like 'foo' ~~ S/a/b/ ~~ S/c/d/ or not
I'm thinking if I should open a separate issue for this. 10:35
El_Che tbrowder: it sounds nice, but maybe a little to close to the deadline? 10:36
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tbrowder not worried about this yr, just tired of wordpress and want a better solution for next year 11:03
El_Che good thinking
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razetime quassel doesn't handle unicode too well. that output looks strange 11:26
Voldenet you've probably used bad charset, use utf8 11:31
(technically every person on irc can use different charset and it's legal) 11:32
razetime it is displaying the utf 8 chars right, but it's the wrong line height. 11:33
so half of it is chopped
Voldenet ah, could be font issue 11:35
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tbrowder El_Che: i just looked at the wordpress site again and it says they support markdown--i must be losing my mind for sure. 12:13
but our own site would still be better imho 12:18
so the offer still stands
Nemokosch what is "the wordpress site" in this context? 12:20
tbrowder we host the Raku Advent (raku-advent.blog) on Wordpress, so we have to use their interface to get our articles on there to be published. 12:22
for myself, every visit to their user interface is a challenge 12:25
lizmat Didn't zoffix write a module to convert markdown to HTML for the advent posts / 12:26
Nemokosch Well, as long as "we" manage the Wordpress site, I don't see this as an issue
I cannot fully feel the relevance of this. Do we have technical issues with the calendar? 12:27
tbrowder yes, but after html gets on the site, and i need an edit, i usually strip all out and have to reinsert.
have you ever used it? 12:28
lizmat I use it every week for the Weekly :-) 12:30
but for dev.to I'm quite happy to just write markdown :-)
tbrowder if so, tell me you love it. their WYSWIG editor does not give consistent views on my Windows and Linux boxes.
lizmat, i know. the weekly looks good, and you have fine-tuned your stles and themes over the years. 12:31
lizmat actually, I haven't much
Nemokosch I know, "volunteer work is non-fungible" 12:32
razetime dev.to has so much seo spam, i never thought there'd be raku posts on there
Anton Antonov @lizmat I use pandoc to convert Markdown to HTML for my posts.
lizmat razetime: well, there'll be a whole lot more, at least for the rest of 2022 12:33
Nemokosch But as somebody who keeps reporting language problems, tries to work with docs and in general get a top view of Raku community processes
razetime i see
lizmat I have an enormous backlog of subjects I want to blog about :-)
tbrowder ok, i usually rant about wordpress this time every year. nudf said. 12:34
razetime i just hate that site so much.. all i get is heaps of unfiltered js and i don't even follow javascript
Nemokosch I do feel that this sudden obsession (is this word fine?) with the calendar steals attention from things I think are way more important
lizmat razetime: and I'll probably be recycling some CCR posts
razetime CCR?
Nemokosch Collect-Conserve-Remaster project
lizmat github.com/raku/CCR#the-raku-colle...er-project
Nemokosch ... another thing that I think is way more important than the calendar infrastructure :P 12:35
lizmat Nemokosch: agree
razetime hm. what is the raku.rocks domain for?
lizmat razetime: that's a domain I mostly registered to be able to have a cool email address :-) 12:36
It might evolve into something else, dunno yet
razetime i agree it is a cool email address (i want one!)
lizmat hmmmm.... 12:37
tbrowder well the advent blogs are a part of the CCR project i assume, so they are more than insignificant.
lizmat actually, nobody has bothered to import them into CCR yet, afaik :-( 12:38
razetime ah didn't know moonchild was part of the ccr project
lizmat well, they had a PR and I merged it :-) 12:39
Nemokosch so moonchild is a person? 12:40
sorry for my ignorance lol
razetime yeah. 12:42
lizmat afk for a few hours& 12:45
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[Coke] ... I started getting "permission denied" on a path that obviously exists and that I can read. Figure it's some weird windows thing that's cropping up.... no, someone just added a directory with a common file extension so I was trying to slurp a directory. :P 13:14
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Rog The classic worst enemy to any programmer: users 14:12
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Superstart033 tenor.com/view/endusers-customers-...f-13872480 14:22
Nemokosch XDD
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To be honest, it makes me feel uncomfortable that raku.land is managed with GitLab. I mean, not the sole fact but it does discourage me from contributing 14:28
perryprog WHy? 14:29
Nemokosch For practical reasons. Pretty much everything is on Github, that's what I'm used to, that's where I find all the content. I don't feel like starting with GitLab just for the sake of it 14:32
perryprog o.0 14:33
why would that make you feel uncomfortable though
doesn't that just mean that you specifically would rather it be on GitHub so you don't need to make an account on GitLab?
Nemokosch I said it discourages me from contributing 14:34
Which I think can apply to several other people as well but that's obviously just a guess
perryprog "it makes me feel uncomfortable that raku.land is managed with GitLab" 14:35
Nemokosch I clarified it though?
perryprog Huh? 14:36
Nemokosch > I mean, not the sole fact but it does discourage me from contributing 14:37
Anyway, couldn't we ask the other way around - why is it on GitLab (unlike 95% of Raku-related content) in the first place?
perryprog Very confused here. You stated that, in some part, you're uncomfortable that raku.land is hosted on GitLab. Now you're saying you only said it discourages you from GitLab [because you don't want to make an account because... you don't want to?] 14:38
ugexe you can login to gitlab with github if i remember correctly 14:39
Nemokosch No, I'm not saying it "now", I said this originally as well
ugexe but yeah if you want your open source contributions to be seen by e.g. potential employers its probably best if they are all on the same platform
perryprog I'd get it if you had some reason that you felt GitLab was contrary to Raku's principles or something, but there's plenty of reasons it might not be hosted on GitHub that have significantly more weight than "centralization good" (yes, I realize that's not what you said). 14:41
Nemokosch yes, I can see that one can log in with Github as well, and I can see that all the issues were opened by Raku "regulars" who basically didn't use GitLab for anything else
perryprog And anyway, raku.land isn't an "official" raku project, right? So it's the creator's discretion that they can do whatever they want with how they host it. If they want to put it up on an ftp server and only accept PRs through faxed in patches that were preapproved via 3 (three) people stamping a snail-mailed copy, then sure, whatever. 14:43
Nemokosch perryprog: I'm the contrary - interested in the practical reasons while not having anything on the technology itself. (It's not Apple or something)
for that matter, raku.land is close to become an "official" raku project 14:45
Also, I expressed my personal feelings and you are denying them with hypotheticals. What is this good for?
perryprog I am not denying your feelings. 14:46
And if I did, I'm sorry—that wasn't my intent, and I should've expressed myself better.
Nemokosch I didn't even say what should or shouldn't be, I only said that for me personally it's off-putting whenever I think of the very same thing I'd like to see imroved and could engage in, that for this sole project, I need to move away from the familiar Github macroverse 14:48
perryprog Right, and that's okay—I'm just saying that there's nothing inherently "incorrect" with the way raku.land is being hosted, and it's possible its creator has similar but contrary feelings about GitHub.
Nemokosch And whenever this happens, I'm also wondering if it discourages others as well. Especially considering the plans that raku.land should in fact replace the old modules site, it's noticeable that it doesn't have a lot of contributions, if I only compare it to the to-be docs site, for example 14:50
CIAvash would like raku.land to be on Codeberg! 14:56
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Nemokosch Of course this "polemy" of GH vs GL isn't the most important aspect overall but I think the current situation with "ownership" is problematic 14:57
Like, it has already been expressed that raku.land could become the "new modules site" and the creators seemed to feel honored by this idea
At the same time, what will this mean on the management level? Do they keep the maintenance? It's awkward either way. 14:58
[Coke] This sort of distributed ownership has been common in the OSS groups I've seen that don't have a corporate sponsor. 14:59
Nemokosch It doesn't seem nice to say "okay, this is ours now, you turn into a mere user"
[Coke] Did anyone say that, though? 15:00
Nemokosch However, I also don't think it would be beneficial to turn something official-ish into a user project.
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Like, I could pick up modules.raku.org tomorrow, and supposedly it would be managed, because it formally belongs to the collective 15:01
considering previous situations where Raku (Perl6) got abandoned by very influential users, I think it would be unsafe to give up on an officially governed modules site 15:03
Anton Antonov <@297037173541175296> Important and interesting points (you bring / make.) I personally prefer GitHub, but it is owned by Microsoft, so, I try to put my most important repositories _also_ elsewhere. 15:05
Nemokosch I mean I'm not a fanatic of Github, makes sense. Also GitLab has my respect for not calling merge requests "pull requests" haha. But I am used to Github and I accept it as the status quo 15:08
To finish the previous thought: when JJ stepped down as orchestrator of documentation content, he left stuff behind that could _theoretically_ be continued any day. 15:10
I'm afraid if we "outsource" official stuff to volunteers - in the sense that they develop-host-own the whole thing - be it raku.land or anything else, that's a vulnerability, because if _they_ step down, there will be little chance to continue their work. 15:12
[Coke] That's part of the risk without a centralized "owner", sure. But we've done quite well for years without it, and the RSC in the past few is good for identifying/managing that kind of risk, I think. 15:16
Anton Antonov I think that happens to most open source projects -- project implementation details and/or maintenance and/or documentation which are at the tail of the Pareto principle (and "take "80%" of time") make the creators step down. I would say that is inherent to the open source business model. 15:18
Nemokosch [Coke]: Of course the main problem is still the lack of people actually doing things but I can't fully agree with you
razetime very sad that i can't use ⍺ and ⍵ in my identifier names :( 15:19
perryprog wait, you can't?! 15:20
Nemokosch From what I can see when browsing Raku-related content, the situation is still somewhat worse than, say, in early 2019
perryprog wow you can't. I always assumed we had unicode identifiers.
Nemokosch supposedly we do... 15:21
perryprog m: my $foo⍺foo = 123;
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Bogus postfix
at <tmp>:1
------> my $foo⏏⍺foo = 123;
expecting any of:
infix stopper
statement end
Nemokosch maybe it's not "alfanumeric" for some reason 15:22
as opposed to www.compart.com/en/unicode/U+03B1
ugexe m: class ::("tha⍵") {}; say ::("tha⍵").new;
camelia tha⍵.new
perryprog m: my $🕴 = 1; 15:23
Nemokosch they look the same but aren't the same
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Name must begin with alphabetic character
at <tmp>:1
------> my $⏏🕴 = 1;
expecting any of:
infix stopper
perryprog :(
Nemokosch α is the right one 15:24
⍺ is the impostor 😄
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perryprog oh wait 15:26
huh how did I choose the APL one accidentally, that's funny
Nemokosch re community: at the end of the day, I don't think that we have been doing good enough and it's good the way it is 15:27
of course this has nothing to do with Github and Gitlab anymore
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perryprog Weird, typing 𝛼 freezes raku for me 15:28
Anton Antonov @perryprog I was going to "dispute" your statement with this Raku-&-APL post: stackoverflow.com/a/67347611 . (Which has ⍵ in it.)
Nemokosch perryprog: are you using REPL, and if so, which module?
perryprog looking but I'm probably out of date 15:29
Nemokosch (I went to IRC for lower latency)
perryprog Terminal::LineEditor
v0.0.11 15:30
Nemokosch then this might be a familiar thing. I had similar issues before with certain alt combos
github.com/japhb/Terminal-LineEditor/issues/3 15:31
perryprog aha! 15:32
yeah, that update fixed it :)
Nemokosch nice 8-) 15:34
so my takeaway from the current position we are in is that we do need "managers". Not in the sense of people who command others to work, more like, people who bear responsibility for certain subprojects 15:39
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Nemokosch from all I can see in github content at least, JJ was a good example of this "manager" character 15:40
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razetime perryprog: I used the APL ⍺ because i program APL :) 15:41
hence the ⍺ and ⍵
perryprog ha nerd
razetime it would be nice to have the miscellaneous tech symbols allowed in identifiers 15:45
well, the relevant ones at least.
𝕨 and 𝕩 work fine luckily
Nemokosch I can't foresee this change (and honestly, I wouldn't support it myself)
perryprog Why not? 15:46
Nemokosch iirc the rule is as simple as alfanumeric + apostrophe + dashes
razetime yeah i guess it's a unicode 'property' lookup?
Nemokosch I'm not sure anyone would want to break this
razetime maybe it can be Slanged into existence 15:47
Nemokosch non-alfanumeric can still be an operator
perryprog I mean, Julia lets you use ⍺ as an identifier 15:48
Nemokosch Raku lets you use α as an identifier
perryprog I mean the APL alpha 15:49
did I use the wrong oen
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Nemokosch I don't know but why wouldn't the Greek alpha just do? 15:49
perryprog I dunno, 'cause it's what razetime did?
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Nemokosch Okay but now razetime also knows that they could use the Greek alpha 15:50
razetime julia again doesn't use the APL ⍺
perryprog julia works fine with the APL alpha though
razetime greek alpha is not on my keyboard. wish there was an easy way to type that
Nemokosch okay but the APL alpha is only on your keyboard because you set it up for APL, right? 15:51
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Nemokosch so by the same chance, the Greek alpha could also be on your keyboard 15:51
perryprog but why not allow APL alpha?
Nemokosch or you could set up the editor to replace them, etc
Marcool04 Hi all
perryprog o/
Marcool04 any idea what this is about... :
raku -e '"/etc/bash.bashrc".IO.watch'
Nemokosch Because the APL alpha is not alfanumeric
Marcool04 file watch target queue must have ConcBlockingQueue REPR 15:52
perryprog Nemokosch: it's not ⍺numeric?
Nemokosch that's right
perryprog Nemokosch: to be clear is, why not allow non-alfanumeric chars
Nemokosch consult with Unicode :)
perryprog like julia :P
Nemokosch I think the idea is that we should be ready for later *symbols* 15:53
Marcool04 ah... could it be this: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5050
Nemokosch so it would be kind of arbitrary to rearrange some symbols into identifier characters
Marcool04: we could try to bisect it for the lolz 15:54
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Nemokosch I hope the bot won't shout... 15:55
bisectable6: "/etc/bash.bashrc".IO.watch
bisectable6 Nemokosch, Will bisect the whole range automagically because no endpoints were provided, hang tight
Nemokosch prepare for the spam
Marcool04 😅
bisectable6 Nemokosch, Output on all releases: gist.github.com/ad2f333125d32b6d5a...71e44e2cdd
Nemokosch, Bisecting by exit code (old=2022.04 new=2022.06). Old exit code: 0
Marcool04 Nemokosch so fa2f35e? 15:56
Nemokosch I'd think it's not over yet
bisectable6 Nemokosch, bisect log: gist.github.com/4bdd941f0f387de3b2...f51756bcbf
Nemokosch, (2022-05-06) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/64...6c26cbd232
Nemokosch, Output on all releases and bisected commits: gist.github.com/0b3cd869dd68c47090...b0ac63d439
perryprog I love bisectable6 so much
if only they could do my math homework that involves bisecting that I was just doing :( 15:57
Nemokosch 2022-05-06 then? :P
Marcool04 ahah 15:58
Nemokosch I mentioned lizmat in the issue, maybe she knows 15:59
Marcool04 perryprog: bisectable6 is amazing! 16:00
Nemokosch: thanks
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Nemokosch no problem :D I wish I could actually do something about it 16:01
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Marcool04 well, I'm looking at the commit but can't even begin to imagine why it might cause that :/ 16:07
way too "internal" for me 16:08
Nemokosch same tbh 16:16
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thundergnat m:constant term:<⍺> = $; ⍺ = 'Raku FTW'; say ⍺; #FWIW 16:35
evalable6 Raku FTW
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guifa_ Nemokosch: I figured out my issue with AT-KEY 23:05
I had a method on a role that was method AT-KEY ($k) { self."$k"() }. Methods in does Foo seem to take precedence over is Bar. 23:07
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lizmat you should think of roles as macros in the sense that they "insert" code into the consuming class 23:08
once you realize that, you realize that roles take precedence over inheritance
guifa_ lizmat: yeah. in my case I had just forgotten that I had that method on the role too :-) 23:09
Just going to touch up a few things and I'll push out a big update for Intl::CLDR 23:13
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guifa_ although now that CLDR supports more languages, I'm going to try to come up with some very lightweight binary compression probably 23:13
I've got tons of ~50k files that differ by <100 B, I think I could probably could up with something that says "read base file from 0..1234, then insert this data, then read base file from 1300..1980" or something without affecting load performance too badly 23:15
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Nemokosch guifa_: that's good news 23:39
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