🦋 Welcome to the MAIN() IRC channel of the Raku Programming Language (raku.org). Log available at irclogs.raku.org/raku/live.html . If you're a beginner, you can also check out the #raku-beginner channel!
Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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bread heyo 00:08
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rf Byeo 00:14
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melezhik On Nemokosch ban ... I probably second hythm view ... it'd be sad to see him going because of this . Anyway on my humble opinion I see him trying to help Raku grow but maybe sometimes in an emotional way ... however I maybe me miss some context of the story here ... 02:50
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melezhik . 03:02
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el nemokosch banned? 04:17
hes still here 04:18
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just pull a middle finger towards anyone relying on such behavior 😎 04:31
anyways, "it breaks code" is one of the most depressing reasons to reject suggestions tbh 04:42
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Zephyr he has been manually excluded from the bridge for 24 hours as requested by lizmat 05:50
so at the moment only the Discord side can see his Discord messages 05:51
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shmup what would camelia do 06:46
scrollback reads fine to me. which makes this an awfully weak opportunity for any real "lesson" to occur 06:49
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Zephyr shmup: messages sent after being excluded from the bridge are kept exclusively on the Discord side. scroll back only has the messages sent from him up until that point 07:57
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el people on the discord side can still read his msgs 08:05
Zephyr I'm aware, I presumed that was the intention as kicking the bot from IRC which lizmat mentioned would've resulted in the same at more extremes 08:06
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el kicking the bot from IRC? you can just mute him on discord? 08:12
Zephyr I can, the concern was lizmat suggesting that since they don't have the power to do that on Discord, which isn't as unexpected as it sounds due to this server only recently starting to be more moderated as compared to before when it almost completely lacked moderation 08:14
I'd assume the IRC side isn't in touch with the Discord side's moderation at all
el by that i mean reading his msgs after that point sorry must've clarified 08:15
Zephyr yes. only change has been that his messages from thereafter aren't bridged to IRC by the bot 08:16
it'll be reverted after 24 hours manually
maybe I should've went for the IRC-Readonly role instead, but I wasn't really given any specific guidance on how to handle this form of scenario in particular, so I did what seemed suitable at the moment 08:17
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El_Che good morning 09:38
or $local_time
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snonux good day (it's always within the 24h of a day!) 09:42
el good 24 hours 09:44
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El_Che snonux: smart boy/girl :) 09:47
moritz it's always morning in UGT :-) 10:03
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lizmat Let me explain my dilemma both on #raku as well as on Discord 10:22
1. I appreciate the energy that Nemokosch is throwing into the Raku Programming Language project
2. Initially, their participation was mostly about starting discussions, which in some cases, where about things that were discussed in what is now the Raku community for over a *decade* 10:24
3. Some of these relate to the Perl roots of Raku, from the time that Raku was still considered by many to be the successor of Perl 10:25
4. Some of the issues that were raised by them, I can agree with, at least partially 10:26
5. Unfortunately, they have a tendency of not taking "no" for an answer, even if that "no" is perhaps a "not now" 10:27
6. This results in people getting tired of these discussions, especially if the apply to things discussed in the past ad nauseam 10:28
7. Also unfortunately, they have a tendency to make things personal: on the one hand, because there is a lot of *I* in the issues raised 10:30
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lizmat 8. And, although I agree it is a platitude, I do think the idea behind "There is no I in "team" is sound 10:30
9. So I would like to see them cooperate more, rather than "fight" to get their point across 10:32
10. Having them on the other end of the Discord bridge, also means there is no way for me to discuss things in private messages 10:33
11. So the only way to ask for toning it down, is to do this publicly, which then only results in yet another public discussion 10:34
12. This resulted in me not really reading backscroll on #raku anymore, as it had become work, and I don't do that so much anymore 10:35
13. Then I received reports from different people that they too were not happy with the atmosphere on #raku, due in a large part to them 10:36
14. Last night, I *was* paying attention, and saw it going off the rails again 10:38
15. I warned them, and as usual, only got the beginning about another discussion, in which I did not want to take part publicly
16. I kicked the bot, the bot recovered, the discussion continued, I kicked the bot again 10:39
Zephyr ...I apologize for that, the bot is set to auto-rejoin
lizmat Zephyr that's ok
it was more like the real "yellow card" as it were
17. and the rest is a 24 hour silencing of Nemokosch on #raku 10:40
Zephyr Nemokosch your messages are currently still not bridged, if you'd like to have a conversation with lizmat I suggest going on the IRC side and using private messages for the time being. as for myself, I'm not here to take any sides as mentioned, just trying to keep things running. also, if you'd rather have a proxy-talk with lizmat publicly here via me I'd want both your confirmation and lizmat's permission for that 10:46
lizmat I'm fine with a proxy-talk 10:47
Zephyr alright, that leaves Nemokosch's confirmation, @Nemokosch would you want me to be a proxy and give sorting things out another chance? 10:48
they have turned the offer down and decided to not discuss it for the time being, apologies 10:50
lizmat Zephyr no problem 10:51
you've tried your best and it is appreciated
el 🙏 10:57
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melezhik . 13:18
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tonyo rf: if you do have time to tackle that typeglob bug in fez, a pr would be much appreciated 13:27
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rf tonyo: Yeah I'm going to lookinto that today at some point 13:28
tonyo bless
rf My employer who insisted on Kubernetes is now feeling Kubernetes lol, been very busy
tonyo k8s will not make good on the promise of soothing any souls 13:29
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rf Yeah, I would die on the hill of not having it but wasn't my decision ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 13:30
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rf So it takes 24 hours for JSON::Fast to do 100000 iterations on a 1 gb JSON file 13:39
And 26 hours for my simd port (single threaded)
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tonyo is json fast recursive or single pass? 13:42
much different than it was in the JSON::Faster days 13:45
rf Tbh I couldn't really decipher what it was doing, I think its using some sort of caching.
I wonder if its faster to take the MD5 of JSON before you parse and store it as known
lizmat yeah, JSON::Fast has been nqp-ified a lot 13:46
rf I have an interesting idea for how to make my port faster, but it basically involves me writing a virtual machine lol 13:47
tonyo: Is there a "dry run" command I can use with fez-upload?
tonyo nope but i can toss one into the dist branch if you're keen 13:48
rf I can just short circuit, no worries. 13:49
Might be a good idea to add at some point though.
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tonyo just added it to the dist branch 13:51
-d or --dry-run will do it
rf tonyo++
tonyo: github.com/tony-o/raku-fez/pull/85/files 13:59
tonyo i'll add that commit to the dist branch 14:01
added to the dist branch so you don't have to bounce back and forth 14:03
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thundergnat My entirely unsolicited take on the Nemokosch situation. 14:09
Seems like a very smart individual, with a lot of interesting observations, but comes across as dismissive and confrontational when people who have worked on those very issues say "Yes, but. 14:10
Someone disagreeing with you is not neccesarily a personal attack.
While I don't want to appeal to authority, sometimes people who have been working on it for 10+ years really do have a better understanding of the problem space and the trade-offs that have been made.
On the other hand, he has a lot of energy and has enlivened the chat channels quite a bit, (not _always_ in a good way, but pretty often.)
Honestly, he reminds me of early Zoffix, before he stopped drinking heavily. High energy, lots of interesting ideas, not much filter. 14:11
I would be sad to see him go. I think he brings a lot of potential, but I also agree that he does on occasion make it feel "less fun" to be here. :-(
(Which may be a non-sequitur because I am not actually "here" all that often, though I do enjoy reading the logs pretty regularly.)
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MasterDuke rf: btw, nine said it isn't supposed to be possible to create a raku hash and return it via nativecall. jnthn's suggestion was to"return, say, an array of values and build the hash back in Raku space." 14:20
"Although it seems the API of simdjson is more iterator based, so it may make more sense to consume that directly in Raku (that is, iterate to produce the hash)"
[Coke] Would love to include this as a potential how-to on the docs site for nativecall if someone wanted to write it up as an example. :) 14:21
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cfa o/ 14:23
rf MasterDuke: I'll look into that, good idea. 14:24
melezhik Hi devs! My previous comment on the Nemokosch situation for some reasons got lost . Anyway I would second thundergnat and hythm views on this. Just my 2 cents here - I see him more trying to help and being really passionated about the language rather then _intentionally_ trying to disrupt the order in the channel, however I am ready to accept his 14:25
style of communications might be improved ))) if people say so. Anyway it would be sad to see him going because if some ( sometimes unavoidable) tractions ...
tractions -> tensions 14:26
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melezhik if -> of 14:27
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coleman Nah, the tensions are always avoidable 16:39
Doing lots of work isn't a license to be aggressive. Yes, I agree it's a shame.
El_Che I think that was lizmat's point 16:40
coleman Yep. Seconded.
[Coke] I would also like to note: it's always been hard to gauge what folks *intent* is when you're speaking with text only (I've seen this going back to the 80s!) (more) 16:41
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[Coke] But, if folks tell you you're coming across a certain way, you need to incorporate that feedback into your communication style. 16:42
El_Che I had to learn my self that there is a difference between pragmatics and semantics
coleman I've had to look at some of my aggro behavior and off-color joking in the past.
It takes humility
rf tonyo: I may have had a typo lol. There is now a backslash in Glob.rakumod, I will PR to fix it sorry. 16:47
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[Coke] does anyone have strong feelings about whether docs in moarvm, nqp, and rakudo should be in pod6 vs. md? I think it makes sense to always have a README.md (LCD), I think it makes sense for our public facing language docs to be pod6, but I don't think we're standardized elsewhere. 17:40
(question triggered by seeing we have two release guide docs in rakudo/rakudo, one of each kind, one with -, one with _...)
coleman I like README in md and everything else in pod6? 17:41
[Coke] I think it might also make sense to have rakudo/rakudo be pod6, but keep nqp & moarvm as .md (since they wouldn't have a way to view it) 17:43
Guest8418 Is there a way to check if a json file is empty without it crashing using JSON::Fast? 17:57
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rf Hows it goin today folks? 18:11
cfa rf: well over here, thanks; you?
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[Coke] you could do the check with raku: $filename.IO.e 18:16
cfa [Coke]: that won't check for emptiness though
rf cfa: Good, thanks. No stupid prod issues at work :^) 18:19
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tonyo backslash in glob? 18:23
cfa how about .s ?
m: '/tmp/empty'.IO.spurt: ''; say "/tmp/empty".IO.s
camelia 0
cfa m: '/tmp/non-empty'.IO.spurt: 'foo'; say "/tmp/non-empty".IO.s
camelia 3
tonyo oh - rf: just pushed a fix 18:24
rf Sorry again :L
tonyo no worries 18:25
PRs are always appreciated, going to add license info to fez, more help messages, and then do a release with the dist stuff integrated 18:33
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tonyo then the following version will be no system dependencies on tar/gzip/pax 18:33
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lizmat fwiw, I thoroughly agree with thundergnat 18:46
wrt to logs: the logger conked out after midnight CET, until 14:27 CET when I restarted it 18:47
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lizmat will resolve the logs with the colabti logger tomorrow, and then all that was said on #raku until 14:27 today, should be visible on irclogs.raku.org again 18:48
fwiw, I can only resolve stale logs, so have to wait until midnight UTC before today's log becomes stale
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p6steve on the NK situation, there are two dimensions: active-inactive and positive-negative ... NK sits in the active/negative position and this makes the situation very awkward 19:05
in any social context we each need to be self aware and prepared to adjust our behaviours according to feedback 19:07
I worry that the first contact a new visitor to raku-beginner (or raku-irc) will be a negative take on the features of the language, delivered very quickly... the situation is made worse by the wider audience / better discoverability on Discord (which generally I see as a good thing) 19:09
it would be better for us to progress with the good new stuff on raku development rather than cycle back to long decided points (see ^^ on Nil) 19:12
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and imo we could be/should be a bit more positive about the fantastic cool stuff that brings us here in the first place 19:14
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lizmat I cannot see what this is about, but I can guess 19:25
afk again& 19:37
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Zephyr it has been 24 hours since Nemokosch was excluded from the bridge. however, at the state of how things currently are, there appears to be no changes on both their and the opposing peoples' stances. I'm afraid reverting the bridge's state will cause more controversies currently. since there's no proper way for the IRC side to moderate users from the Discord side or block/ignore them, for now I think I'll keep Nemokosch 20:00
excluded from the bridge until a more reasonable alternative is provided that allows for things to be less chaotic. it's night time in my timezone unfortunately, so I'll have to go sleep now. I'll continue reading any related discussions when I'm online
cfa colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...02-16#l334 20:04
indefinite blocking seems severe given that this was originally 24 hours 20:05
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NemokoschKiwi It makes sense, though, and I agreed to it. 20:12
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rf Hmm. I accidentally published a dist, how can I delete it 20:14
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cfa rf: github.com/tony-o/raku-fez#removing-a-module ? 20:20
tonyo: shouldn't the about text read "This project is for 'fez'"? 20:22
[Coke] (.e isn't empty) (oops, yes, I should have said .s) 20:27
cfa and .e then an .s test makes sense anyway :) 20:28
[Coke] cfa++ # figuring out what I was trying to say 20:29
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tonyo cfa: ?? 20:55
oh, whoa. updated - forgot entirely about that blurb on gh repos 20:56
rf tonyo: Can I delete a package I published later than 24 hours lol. When I was doing some cleanup of my META6 last publish of Humming-Bird went under a new name (oops) 21:11
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melezhik Anton Antonov , 👋 could you please take a look at my PR for Raku-DSL-Shared? Thanks 21:22
github.com/antononcube/Raku-DSL-Shared/pull/2 21:23
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cfa tonyo: :) 21:28
tonyo rf: there's no real good way of doing that 21:29
rf Darn. 21:38
shmup what's the diff between t and xt, for test dirs? 21:43
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shmup i se a comment in the xt sole test saying: "# These tests should be moved to t/ once perl6 is faster" 21:44
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cfa i think xt is for author/developer tests, not intended to be run by users at the time of installation 21:50
rf I've seen and used it as well, for integration tests 22:05
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tonyo xt is meant for things like you need your environment set up a particular way for testing. ctilmes' has a lot of modules that use xt (like the libpostgres stuff) because testing requires postgres set up in a particular way 22:19
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leont really likes the convention of subdirs in xt, like xt/author/ or xt/release/, makes it much more obvious which test is run when 23:09
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Anton Antonov @melezhik Will do. 23:39
.tell melezhik I will look into “DSL::Shared” tonight or tomorrow morning. 23:40
melezhik Thanks ! 23:56
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