🦋 Welcome to the MAIN() IRC channel of the Raku Programming Language (raku.org). Log available at irclogs.raku.org/raku/live.html . If you're a beginner, you can also check out the #raku-beginner channel!
Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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JonathanTart rgvbgg 02:46
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perryprog well said 02:56
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ugexe TIL bsdtar will extract .zip files, gnutar won't 03:03
tonyo leont: is there anything existing this way ? 03:44
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shmup good explanation ty 04:19
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grondilu Hi all. I'm considering learning emacs again and possibly using it to write raku code. Anything I should know apart from github.com/Raku/raku-mode ? 10:26
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Geth doc/finanalyst-patch-1: 0b5dc85a51 | (Richard Hainsworth)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/independent-routines.pod6
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doc: finanalyst++ created pull request #4203:
Change metadata from unknown basic to fundamental
Anton Antonov @grondilu I have used Raku-mode with Emacs and Aquamacs. It is not that convenient or useful. It is, of course, better than just using the command line REPL. It really depends what you want to use Raku for. 11:39
@grondilu When I started learning Raku Atom was still actively maintained and/or developed, So, it’s Raku/Perl6 plug-in was useful. 11:41
grondilu mostly I want good syntax highlighting and perhaps a ctag equivalent, but even with vim I can't have that, so just good syntax highlighting will be good enough 11:42
Anton Antonov @grondilu Consider then using Commaide and/or IntelliJ with Comma’s plugin. 11:43
grondilu that's outside of emacs, isn't it?
Anton Antonov Absolutely, outside of Emacs. 🙂 11:44
grondilu ah well I want to learn Emacs, I just expect to have to edit raku files with it quite a bit. 11:45
isn't there any emacs guru in the raku community? 11:46
Anton Antonov Or a Raku guru in the Emacs community… 11:47
Raku community is crowded with vi-addicts. 11:48
grondilu lol I'm one of these addicts, and I want to go to rehab 🙂 11:49
Anton Antonov Some of them have made daring attempts of using vim. (With Raku.) 11:50
grondilu not sure what you mean
Anton Antonov Doesn’t matter… 11:51
I used Emacs a lot for programming, but right now I use Emacs mostly for/with org-mode. 11:52
grondilu yeah org mode is what gives me FOMO 11:53
Anton Antonov So, I was very interested to do Literate Programming (LT) with Raku in babel-mode. (In Emacs.) But that is very incomplete at this point. 11:54
It has been in my to do list for at least 1.5 years to figure out how make ZeroMQ connection from Emacs to Raku. (And have LT in that way.) 11:56
grondilu @Nemokosch what's the status of that, though? does it work well for raku now?
Anton Antonov Again, that is “just” syntax highlighting — as far as know. It does not provide interactive experience. 11:58
Also, Bscan made the corresponding Raku-mode for VS. Code. 11:59
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@grondilu There is a Emacs to Raku Lisp script that allows evaluation Babel. I will find it in the next hour or so… 12:05
grondilu I don't know what Babel is. To me it evokes a javascript translator or something. 12:09
Anton Antonov See orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/ 12:10
grondilu I see. Is that the thing people use to do literate programming in emacs?
Anton Antonov Well, that is one way… There are others, depends how much LT you want. 12:14
grondilu I think I'll look into LTS. That is probably the only way to deal with raku's complexity anyway. 12:15
huh I mean LSP or something Language Server thing 12:16
Anton Antonov Yeah, good luck!
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p6steve ... I would like to see @Nemokosch reinstated please (since his 24 hour term has been served) 12:33
I would feel the same if I were you 12:35
Well, I have reviewed some of the things I said and I was quite pompous ... and it not like I have a right to tell you what to say or how to say it 12:39
Zephyr the current situation is a bit of a dilemma and I'm a bit lost myself in terms of what would be the right thing to do. I'm not sure what lizmat's opinion on this would be given Nemokosch appears to have maintained the same stance. I mostly avoided reinstating them to minimize similar arguments for the time being 12:40
lizmat Zephyr I'm sorry to hear that 12:41
p6steve well, I'm not a moderator --- thankfully --- but it is very odd having a bridge and then excluding someone from one side but no the other
lizmat Zephyr yeah, I'd say re-instate for now 12:42
we'll cross that bridge (again) if they go off the rails again 12:43
no pun intended btw :-)
Zephyr so... Nemokosch, is it alright if I reinstate you now?
p6steve lol
Zephyr @Nemokosch ? 12:45
lizmat I guess if they do break discord's rules, it can be dealt on discord's side
on the #raku side, there's always the advise to /ignore discord-raku-bot
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Zephyr alright, reinstated 12:46
p6steve thanks 12:47
Zephyr ignoring the whole bridge though seems a bit extreme to say the least...
lizmat Zephyr thanks for your work
well, I wish there were a technical way to not have to do that
the alternative would be to kick and/or ban, but that would affect *all* users of #raku
Zephyr is there no way to ignore a specific message pattern in IRC? 12:48
Irssi seems to have something for that irssi.org/documentation/help/ignore/ 12:49
I'm not sure about other clients
lizmat good idea 12:51
Anton Antonov @Zephyr I guess I will finish and productize the Code of Conduct Censuring Classifier (C4) and we can use it to classify the messages over the bridge and in general. 13:03
Of course, author’s handle can be a variable in classification process. (E.g. if $handle (elem) <Nemokosch> then “do-not-post”.) 13:06
Zephyr I'm not exactly sure about the whole context but not posting Nemokosch's messages over the bridge at all isn't as viable of a solution here considering that's what was done a bit ago which was requested to be reverted just now and done so 13:08
instead the problem is client-specific commands for ignoring a specific user's messages over the bridge without affecting others
ab5tract that doesn't sound fixable from the bridge, to be honest 13:11
p6steve I suspect that the irc - discord bridge has been a sea change for the irc side - discord being more approachable, discoverable and generally active (you can see active discord communities around Rust, Python and so on) 13:12
Anton Antonov At some point C4 has to be made to apply per person — people can use it to both filter the messages they read and to self-censor what they post. 13:14
p6steve nevertheless, imo this has been a big positive for Raku, helping more of us be active in the chat more of the time (but no doubt diluting some of the technical focus of the irc side) 13:15
what I fear is that it will get very confusing if some folk are only heard on one side of the other, and I would request that our respected moderators work together so that the rules and action on both sides are consistent and uniform to avoid this 13:17
Anton Antonov Since Nemokosch has posted a lot in the last 1.8 years, I can easily use his messages as “do not post” baseline training text for C4. (Together with the feedback of others on those messages.)
p6steve I probably need this for my email too 13:18
this could be big in China 13:19
ab5tract p6steve: IIUC, you are saying that a ban should be applied to both Discord and IRC, and not just the bridge?
p6steve ^^ yes
ab5tract that's the only sensible course IMO 13:20
p6steve be careful, since you know he has hair trigger reactions 13:22
Zephyr ...I'm a bit confused where this conversation is headed 13:23
Anton Antonov I think hair triggers are abundant, hence we need something like C4. 13:25
Zephyr what exactly is C4?
Anton Antonov Code of Conduct Censoring Classifier == C4 13:27
ab5tract I don't know him very well but I don't see how deactivating a bridge helps to resolve an underlying issue of concern for whether someone's contributions are negative/positive for the community 13:28
Zephyr I got that much but I'm not exactly sure what those terms represent here
Anton Antonov @Zephyr C4 is project that makes mathematical artifacts — classifiers — that can be used to label text as acceptable or not within the context of forum messages (say, of certain community.) 13:30
Zephyr that to me sounds like it would have a lot of false positives to say the least... 13:31
ab5tract Well, Anton has demoed some pretty magical ML before... but yeah, I don't know if I see it being useful outside of maybe informing a user that they are crossing boundaries that have previously resulted in a ban? 13:32
Anton Antonov C4 can have a “set of sliders” that help personalize it per user. 13:33
@ab5tract Sure, but a classifier like that can be used to analyze, cluster, and segregate a text corpus of messages. Hence, the moderators can form more informed opinions about what, or who, or which to ban. 13:39
ab5tract I think we are still talking about two different things. One is an operational idea (C4), one is a methodological question (does a temporary ban from a bridge actually deter any harmful behavior?) 13:40
lizmat I'm all for having more options 13:42
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lizmat PSA: logs of 17 Feb have been synced with colabti logger 13:47
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Nemokosch So much fuss of so little value. You could just tell me to get lost and call it a day 🤷‍♂️ 13:57
lizmat it should mean something to you that that is not the case 14:03
Anton Antonov @Nemokosch C4 could be easily “tuned” into telling you to get lost. (Over email, SMS, and, of course, Discord.) 14:05
Nemokosch yes, it does mean something - but it also means something that people who tried much harder and longer than I did, all bounced back from the very same "hardcore" that mistakes itself with "the community" 14:08
there is nothing to earn here
@Anton Antonov thank you; a truly noble service provider ^^ 14:09
lizmat *sigh* 14:41
p6steve the majority of the issues you raise are incorrect and you are never able to accept that you are wrong --- there is no hardcore of resistance, just a community of people contributing their time freely where many disagree with you 14:45
I find this pattern very annoying 14:46
Nemokosch The majority of the issues I raise are not incorrect - this is where we part
p6steve I estimate that you are objectively correct about 30% of the time 14:47
Nemokosch And the reactions provided by those people who could do anything about it - yes, they are the "hardcore" - are very disillusional
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It's not like it's impossible to name them 14:47
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lizmat please do 14:47
p6steve Since this is open source, you can proactively make PRs and so on, come on! 14:48
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Nemokosch the members of the Raku Steering Council + Tony O'Dell, basically 14:48
now that JJ Merelo resigned, I don't think anybody needs to be excluded explicitly
lizmat not even Daniel Sockwell ? 14:49
Nemokosch I had tremendous hopes in Daniel Sockwell actually
lizmat or Geoffrey Broadwell ? 14:50
Nemokosch but somebody who only shows up twice a year, cannot actually change the big picture, if not for Community Affairs Team...
Last time Geoffrey Broadwell showed up was when he asked about Documentable that has been abandoned for a year 14:51
lizmat so let me get this straight: they are against change because you think they spend less time on Raku than you expect them to ? 14:52
Nemokosch to be fair, I don't know what they have in mind because they barely have visible activity 14:53
lizmat yet you just lumped them together in "the members of the Raku Steering Council + Tony O'Dell, basically" 14:54
Nemokosch which is, I agree, a different thing than actively blocking any attempts to change things on a bigger scale
well, sorry for being inaccurate? They are not at the right place, though, if that matters
lizmat ah, you were being inaccurate? I guess that doesn't happen very often 14:55
Nemokosch I guess it doesn't happen that some of you diverge from the topic by nitpicking
ab5tract what is the topic, exactly? 14:56
lizmat people against change in the Raku community, apparently
Nemokosch That the state of this project, much like as a "theme park", is determined by the solid number of people who use their knowledge and power to simply outlast those people who ever wanted to treat it as a project 14:57
Either by active effort or just by sheer passivity and indifference
ugexe you are tilting at windmills 14:58
Nemokosch yes, windmills like you personally
ab5tract so your idea of treating Raku like a project is to denigrate its main contributors? 14:59
p6steve you are confusing the re-opening of long settled issues with the desire to make progress
Nemokosch somebody said that the measure of contributions doesn't matter!
(which I think, by the way, is an absolutely demoralizing statement, but then let's take it seriously) 15:00
Also, a lot of things are being treated as laws of nature - resisting any sort of management is one such a thing. 15:01
As if being subject to certain common goals would be the same thing as sending somebody to Gulag
Any time the topic of dedicating X proportion of existing resources to goal Y came up, there were these people who de facto vetoed it immediately 15:04
Talking about selflessness
And yes, this is "long settled", in the sense that it predates my presence by years at least
p6steve Perhaps you would get more support for your goals if you made more convincing arguments and built support for your ideas
Nemokosch Yes - and this would be so much easier if people like Zoffix, AlexDaniel and eventually JJ Merelo didn't burn out of lack of any reception of such ideas 15:05
ab5tract You are putting words into JJ's mouth, at the very least 15:06
Nemokosch I'm not putting any words into JJ's mouth
ab5tract when and where did he declare exasperation at having his ideas ignored?
tonyo where did he write that he was burnt out because his ideas went unheard?
shmup Is this conductive at all, or interesting, right now
Nemokosch what I'm saying is that he is among the people who have been trying to take care of this project, and it wasn't received basically at all
tonyo is that your opinion or did he write that somewhere? 15:07
jj implemented a lot of change
Nemokosch each and every one of the named people did
tonyo .tell rf check out the new usages in fez dist branch - i think i just gave it a big upgrade
tellable6 tonyo, I'll pass your message to rf
tonyo is that your opinion or did jj write that somewhere? 15:08
Nemokosch I wouldn't know about it if he did, but it would be also a misjudgement to frame this as an opinion. Read up on the problem-solving repo 15:09
lizmat With regards to change and Zoffix 15:11
Zoffix left the Raku Community partially because of me
at the time, I was still following TimToady's vision of (now) Raku being the next version of Perl
Zoffix was of the opinion that the name should be changed 15:12
and Raku was his proposal for at least an alias
with the release of 6.d, a giant misunderstanding caused Zoffix to really want to know from TimToady what the status of the alias was
TimToady to this day, did not answer their question 15:13
after waiting for 2 months, Zoffix chose to leave
Nemokosch By the way, hopefully it goes without saying that none of you are being "attacked", and as for lizmat, to me at least, it does matter that somebody is actually getting things done
shmup do we miss Zoffix
lizmat It took me another 9 months to realize that Zoffix had been right
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shmup aw 15:14
lizmat and proposed the name change to Raku in Riga in 2019
ab5tract just to clarify: Zoffix left after setting an *ultimatum*, which has never gone over well with the community 15:15
lizmat now, if you're going to say that I'm against change out of principle, I think you are wrong, very wrong
Nemokosch github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/203 this issue (and its predecessor issue) is the quintessence (okay, one possible quintessence) of the problem
it reflects a whole lot of things 15:16
and it seems to me that there was more hope (or at least more time at disposal for the active members) around that time 15:17
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lizmat perhaps there was indeed. But Covid took away a lot of time from core developers, and the war in Ukraine is definitely also a big distractor for some core developers 15:18
to come back to "By the way, hopefully it goes without saying that none of you are being "attacked" 15:19
no, it does not: many of your interactions *ARE* being interpreted as attacks, or at least as being "toxic"
and that's something I hear from people *VERY* new to the Raku Community 15:20
Nemokosch I thought interpretations don't count - not if I interpret something some way, at least 15:21
el even if he does not intend to
Nemokosch for covid + war in Ukraine: point is, something was going to happen anyway. Something always happens. github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/5 15:22
I have just seen this issue in the last couple of days, guess which participants I see on the right side of the story...
lizmat ah, so there's a right and a wrong side ? 15:23
Nemokosch In retrospective, we may say that there is
lizmat no, you said: "which participants I see on the right side of the story"
Nemokosch What follows?
lizmat words matter.
Nemokosch What does that mean to you, then? 15:24
lizmat it means to me that you always have your opinion ready and are incapable of introspection or empathy
or should I soften that with "we may say?" 15:25
Nemokosch It means that I could count on which people will make the good points
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And yes, this is telling, telling about the people 15:25
It's not surprising who said that it would be quintessential to get more contributors - way more important than to use the existing resources efficiently. 15:26
And in retrospective, it seems that these people were pretty damn right.
And the irony is: I would be substantially less active in a parallel universe where these people were taken seriously enough. 15:27
Because it would be all up to people who were much better at doing this! 15:28
lizmat ah, so you want to be less active so that other people can do more? 15:29
that's not how open source works
or any volunteer effort
Nemokosch not "less active"
shmup intermission time. everyone take a few big breaths. ah feels good 15:30
Nemokosch it's not the right conclusion
lizmat shmup: good idea, I will recuse myself 15:31
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Nemokosch I'm rather saying that these people were too selfish when they were shown to make a sacrifice to invoke more contributors 15:32
because that wouldn't have been efficient enough for them 15:33
the contributors didn't came, covid and war in Ukraine happened, the people who pursued a project management perspective slowly vanished (for often related reasons) 15:34
we are back to a situation possibly somewhat worse than 2 or 3 years ago, and the problem is still not the mindset that even justifies not doing stuff, not helping out and so on 15:35
the problem is still not the statement "everybody contributes as much as they feel like and that's that", coming from someone the most grown to the project 15:36
the problem is still my attitude. If my attitude is the problem, I can just let all of you be, no problem. 15:37
However, I don't see how that solution will turn Raku, in its eighth "released" year, into a real-life project, rather than a theme park of a handful of people. And that hurts me, and I can't understand how it doesn't hurt lizmat, ugexe, tonyo, nine, vrurg and whoever else, just enough. 15:39
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lucs Where do I look in the docs to understand what happens with the 「⋯」 here?: 「use Some::Module ⋯」 17:56
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ugexe docs.raku.org/language/modules#is_export a little ways down under this 18:13
lucs Aha, thanks. 18:16
Geth doc/main: 0b5dc85a51 | (Richard Hainsworth)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/independent-routines.pod6
Change metadata from unknown basic to fundamental

This page should appear in the language page of the website, but is missed because the category metadata is 'basic' not 'fundamental'
doc/main: 016bb85424 | Altai-man++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Type/independent-routines.pod6
Merge pull request #4203 from Raku/finanalyst-patch-1

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tbrowder .tell grondilu the raku/perl6 emacs mode does have the capability to show an index of raku classes, subs, and variables 21:26
tellable6 tbrowder, I'll pass your message to grondilu
tbrowder .tell [Coke] see my ramblings on #raku-doc ref "Opener graphemes" and added proposal at doc issue #3917 21:30
tellable6 tbrowder, I'll pass your message to [Coke]
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rf Afternoon folks 21:53
tellable6 2023-02-18T15:07:53Z #raku <tonyo> rf check out the new usages in fez dist branch - i think i just gave it a big upgrade
rf .tell tonyo Will do!
tellable6 rf, I'll pass your message to tonyo
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