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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
Voldenet in fact, that "shorter" syntax is very much like pairs, but weird 00:00
m: my @a = <a b c d>; for @a.pairs -> $item { say $item.value; say $item.key; }
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Voldenet m: my @a = <a b c d>; for @a.pairs { say .value; say .key; } # the shortest 00:01
camelia a
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wayland76 Oh! I somehow didn't realise that .kv worked on arrays too! Thanks! :) 00:33
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timo m: my @a = <a b c d>; for @a[]:p { say .value; say .key; } 01:01
camelia a
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timo even shorter by two letters 01:02
SmokeMachine weekly: dev.to/fco/bringing-structural-pro...-raku-2ook 01:25
disbot3 <jubilatious1_98524> m: my @a = <a b c d>; .say for @a.pairs; 01:30
<Raku eval> 0 => a 1 => b 2 => c 3 => d
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tbrowder thanks, all. btw, i use the @a.kv -> $i, $v all the time. early on i was marveling at all the stuff getting cleaner syntax than Perl and i wondered about @arr and whether there was some magic way the index number of an item could be incremented if were initialized in a statement before @arr so it would be 1 for the first element. Zoffix was fooling around with tweaking @arr and he wondered why i would want to do that and i said 01:46
because my typical use case was to alway refer to do that. i got chastized and dismissed.
later i learned about .kv i think from lizmat and later .kv -> $i is copy, $v and i was very happily surprised one more time. i have never looked back at perl except to translate my old stuff to raku. 01:52
disbot3 <jubilatious1_98524> m: my @a = <a b c d>; @a.kv.join(",").put; 01:55
<Raku eval> 0,a,1,b,2,c,3,d
tbrowder Voldenet: if all my common vars are single-valued isn't a plain hash simpler to use on the receiving sub side? 02:04
no, maybe the array with the index as key... 02:06
i'll sleep on it. nitey nite...
disbot3 <jubilatious1_98524> m: my @a = <a b c d>; dd @a.pairs 02:08
<Raku eval> (0 => "a", 1 => "b", 2 => "c", 3 => "d").Seq
<jubilatious1_98524> hmm... appear to be Int keys? 02:09
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disbot3 <librasteve> o/ 08:07
librasteve_ wayland76: hi! can we have a quick chat about “Intsall”? 08:08
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wayland76 weekly: wayland.github.io/blog/raku/genera...sation.xml 09:32
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wayland76 SmokeMachine / librasteve_ I'm not seeing the Weekly bot respond to the weekly messages. 09:34
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librasteve_ can you raise that with the bot guys? 10:04
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wayland76 I don't know who the bot guys are :) 10:47
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disbot3 <librasteve> me neither - maybe @whistlingzephyr ? 10:56
<whistlingzephyr> I only handle the Discord side of bots (bridge and Discord eval), not sure about IRC bots. maybe lizmat could help 10:58
<librasteve> thanks for clarifying
<whistlingzephyr> no problem
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wayland76 .tell melezhik You might be interested in github.com/spitsh/spitsh :) 11:33
tellable6 wayland76, I'll pass your message to melezhik
wayland76 I've just done a bit of an eyeball, and there's no notable6 bot listening on this channel. So that's the problem. 11:35
lizmat: Whom do we complain to when the bot is down?
disbot3 <librasteve> that's odd
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Voldenet tbrowder: Well, plain hash is simpler but loses type info fast - you can never be sure what's inside the hash, using a class is a tradeoff where you know exactly what can be stored, but it's a lot of typing 12:06
tbrowder agree, i wound up using a class 12:13
disbot3 <librasteve> hi folks - I have noticed that the old repl Linenoise / Readline issue continues to create unwated friction for newcomers to raku 12:14
<librasteve> github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5932
<librasteve> This Issue is imho the number one thing that newcomers to raku complain about. It detracts from the overall raku experience at the exact point when a newcomer is judging the overall quality and reliability of our language.
<librasteve> Please can we fix this in the next release? (I'm happy to make a PR - but want to allow time for a bit of discussion in case there's a better way) 12:15
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Voldenet good idea, I gave it a like because I have nothing to add – readline mostly works everywhere and has great compatibility with everything 12:39
linenoise feels experimental, I end up not being able to use some keys depending on the terminal 12:40
Terminal::LineEditor could be good, but I haven't tried it
in fact, "no NativeCall needed" is really promising to me 12:41
after testing it a bit, some home/end keys don't work depending on terminal (linenoise-like) – I suppose the cause is that readline is just old and has tons of users able to test them out 12:43
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disbot3 <librasteve> ok 12:58
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disbot3 <librasteve> dumb question - why does rakudo / rakudo-star just bundle Readline? 12:59
jdv what should be bubndled then? slippery slope 13:08
and then you end up with dual life...
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disbot3 <librasteve> jdv: ok ... but every newcomer that installs raku and tries the repl is going to hit this bump 14:35
ugexe sure, but really the same could be said of most bugs. if a newcomer and uses the thing that is buggy, they are going to hit a bump 14:38
disbot3 <librasteve> ugexe: by bump I mean anything on lines of your line editor is incomplete ... go zef install Something ... its still a bump even if the action is successful ... today it's usually unsuccessful which is more of a hump 14:41
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SmokeMachine wayland: thanks! Let me try again… 15:08
weekly: dev.to/fco/bringing-structural-pro...-raku-2ook 15:09
weekly: help
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timo looks like notable6 isn't here, that's the bot that does these things 16:33
.seen notable6
tellable6 timo, I saw notable6 2025-07-14T18:41:31Z in #raku: <notable6> librasteve_, Moved existing notes to “weekly_2025-07-14T18:41:30Z”
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[Coke] .. did someone MOVE the whateverable repo? 16:43
I have a checkout with it at Raku/whateverable.git 16:44
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[Coke] but it is now at github.com/raku-community-modules/whateverable 16:44
so it would not surprise me if many things are now unhappy
the auto redirect should work for a bunch of stuff (but not for me to push a commit to force a bot restart) 16:45
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jdv liz started to "communityify" it but gave up so far 17:08
i guess consider it "frozen" for a few days/weeks 17:09
also, note that the July release will not happen because i have better things to do on 7/25 than push out a more or less low value release 17:10
[Coke]: you can if you really want to... 17:11
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jdv librasteve: that seems like a valid point 18:00
i have never and will likely never use a repl. i mean, i've tried them but i find them unuseful, for me. 18:01
so i'm the wrong person to be talking about this:)
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Voldenet I don't use repl because it's stateful 18:11
so it prevents you from actually testing code, you test the code against current state 18:12
instead of repl, I use `raku -e '…'` most of the time 18:13
servers similar purpose, but without anything stateful
serves*
and when the code in -e becomes too long, i just dump it into the file, it's way more difficult to do that with repl 18:14
disbot3 <librasteve> yeah i rarely use repl (expect for crag) … but i guess it’s one of the first things a newcomer will reach for 18:15
Voldenet I'm not sure - I don't think I've ever user repl for anyting, even when I was an actual beginner
disbot3 <librasteve> please all keep tagging weekly: even if the bot does nt work and i’ll trawl the logs for now
<librasteve> yeah even if you go there, soon gonna outgrow it 18:16
Voldenet I use repl in js a lot, but the annoying part is that `const/let` actually pollute global state 18:17
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Voldenet so… I'm doing `async function x() { … }; x()` instead 18:18
so I'm actively doing workarounds for having things running in repl
it might be just "me" issue, but it might be worth figuring out if newcomers want to use REPL at all 18:20
otoh It'd be good if it was just working well, so if compiled package tested if readline/linenoise was installed and pull the right module 18:21
it'd be probably the right thing
otherwise use Terminal::LineEditor automatically
s/use/install/
OTOH sbcl just requires rlwrap without even telling you that 18:23
tbrowder if anyone has watched ruth’s toc presento on youtube, i was interested in the point about CVEs. seems to me that’s an incentive to enable checking and deleting data from zef/fez. 18:24
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ugexe If something has a severe CVE and is relatively new and unused, sure. Otherwise that is a recipe to break production systems and why most ecosystems of any language disallow doing that. The correct response is to fix the bug or write a better library, not force everyone to figure it out once their systems break from someone else removing it 18:36
I’m also typing on a phone so I can’t continue this conversation at the moment 🙃 18:37
Geth ¦ problem-solving: lizmat assigned to codesections Issue A PURL specification for Raku modules github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/488 18:51
¦ problem-solving: lizmat unassigned from codesections Issue A PURL specification for Raku modules github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/488 18:52
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[Coke] ugexe++ 19:03
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Voldenet only removing openly malicious versions of packages should be allowed, in any other case auditing tools do the job well 20:00
every version in ecosystem could have vulnerabilities list somewhere, or there could be json file containing vulnerable versions of packages 20:03
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arkiuat I use the REPL quite a lot, mostly to check my understanding of points where the documentation isn't clear to me. Which is quite often because most of the documentation is on the taciturn edge of terse. 20:32
I'm well past the point where I can never go back to Perl 5, but still learning a lot about Raku most weeks 20:33
I've certainly run into trouble with getting my Readline working, but it hasn't been a problem at all in recent months 20:34
disbot3 <antononcube> @arkiuat Using Jupyter and/or LLMs would speed up your Raku studies. 20:35
<jubilatious1_98524> I prefer Linenoise 20:38
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disbot3 <jubilatious1_98524> There's also Linenoise-NG, which purports to be UTF-8 (read: wide-character) friendly: github.com/arangodb/linenoise-ng 20:42
<antononcube> But it is archived / abandoned. 20:43
<jubilatious1_98524> BSD license, anyone can host/adopt/extend 20:44
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jdv shouldn't this basically echo what is typed?: raku -e '$*IN.Supply.tap: *.raku.say' 21:19
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jdv how would one write "tail -f" in raku? 21:30
disbot3 <antononcube> shell("tail -f your-file.log"); 21:35
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disbot3 <jubilatious1_98524> @jdv Not sure if I've posted an exact answer, but react blocks might fit the bill, see here: unix.stackexchange.com/a/722746/227738 21:44
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Voldenet consider `raku -e '$*IN.lines.Supply.tap: *.raku.say'` 22:02
Supply on IO::Handle will read chunks of given size 22:04
timo there are many things to consider when tailing a file, like truncation of the file for example. ideally, you'd take a module from the ecosystem that someone has built that takes into account all the nasty edge cases 22:05
Voldenet e.g. raku -e '$*IN.Supply(:5size).tap: *.raku.say'
I thought the question was not about file reading but Supply on handle 22:07
timo i didn't read back further than a few lines so maybe i missed something? 22:08
Voldenet but well this doesn't seem to work anyway 22:12
obviously any read on eof would return eof 22:13
so to tail -f properly, one would have to do something like this (not prod code, just PoC): 22:17
> raku -e 'my $size = 0; loop { given "blah".IO.open(:r) { .seek($size); if my $n = .slurp { $n.say }; $size = .tell } }'
> raku -e 'my $size = 0; loop { given "blah".IO.open(:r) { .seek($size); if my $n = .slurp { $n.say }; $size = .tell; .close } }' 22:19
also add a sleep probably
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Voldenet > sub x { state $size = 0; given "blah".IO.open(:r) { say "foo"; .seek($size); if my $n = .slurp { $n.say }; $size = .tell; .close; } }; x; loop { say "boo"; react whenever "blah".IO.watch { x } } 22:27
disbot3 <librasteve> wonders if you could stick a Supply onto a tail -f 22:29
Voldenet it's not perfect still…
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Voldenet yes, you could 22:31
disbot3 <librasteve> @jubilatious … looks like your volunteering to adopt the Linenoise module and fix it on macOS and Linux (otherwise it’s going to bit rot away)
Voldenet > raku -e 'react whenever shell("while : ; do date; sleep 1 ; done", :out).out.Supply(:5size) { [$_].say }'
or .lines.Supply ofc 22:32
disbot3 <librasteve> =b 22:34
Voldenet in fact… `while : ; do date; sleep 1 ; done | raku -e 'for lines() { [$_].say }'` 22:35
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disbot3 <jubilatious1_98524> I wish I were that talented. But linenoise is 1/6th (??) the size of readline, correct? So I'll be able to learn the linenoise codebase 6-times faster! 22:57
<jubilatious1_98524> @librasteve Actually the issue is I installed linenoise to get around problems with the MacOS readline dylib. There were numerous readline problems at the time (@DrForr era). Moral of the story: just becaues the pendulum has swung the other way, don't assume it will always stay that way. 23:00
SmokeMachine Is weekly already back? 23:01
timo notable6 is still missing 23:03
jdv no. should be able to open a file and "select(2)" on it or something 23:25
i know tge edge cases. i just want the simplest case of it. 23:26
SmokeMachine Does anyone think that “structural protocol” makes sense in Raku? (dev.to/fco/bringing-structural-pro...ook/stats) 23:35
(No /stats, sorry)
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Voldenet well it's something that most languages lack 23:51
in C# I used interface + dynamically generated adapters for so I could say "this object here needs method X returning string" and turn it into `interface IXable { string X(); }` 23:53
imo use for dynamic validation covers this use case better, but can't be done in C# 23:54

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