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tbrowder lizmat: think we could make hyperize take another callable to do the work on the hyperized list objects? makes my head hurt but it would really help reduce this user's spaghetti code. approaching making PCs into super computers 10:41
lizmat that's what .map is, no? 10:42
tbrowder ugexe: i appreciate yr position and bow to yr arg. so i will make a linter (and use yr test file). making it a published module, what name would you recommend? something like App::DistroLint or ? 10:51
well i've not been very handy with map and don't feel comfy with it yet. i rely on seeing others use it. 11:00
lizmat: sorry, last two sentences were for you 11:02
at the moment i'm looking at making a class with TWEAK doing the work
lizmat my @b = @a.map({ ... })
is the same as: 11:03
my @b = do for @a { ... }
does that help in comprehension ?
tbrowder yes!
thnx
btw, in the docs for yr do example it shows equiv my $b = do for @a {...}. confusing for noobs (even though it shows (...) as result 11:11
i think that is why Todd is often unhappy with the docs, and i also. i have alway disliked the super terse form of man pages. 11:14
most man pages that is.
imho, too much golfing in docs 11:16
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librasteve tbrowder: I am not sure that it is fair to say there is too much, or indeed any, golfing in the raku docs. To my mind that would involve code examples that are chosen for there terseness rather than their explanatory power. I would like to think that the examples in the raku docs are chosen because of their explanatory power. In many places, I do agree that the examples are "obscure". However I believe that the 13:10
style of the raku docs is to have examples of the corner cases of the usage of features to show the breadth of what can be written (rather than aiming to show "one true way") and by way of this to explain the underlying rationale for the feature and its combinations.
There is also some jokiness, which I like, but may not suit all readers.
The raku docs are often too deep too soon for beginners and I would always suggest the raku.guide to beginners and to those who want to have a limited exposure to the fancier features. 13:12
[Coke] We should probably also have an intro section in the official docs, but we barely have any authors. 13:14
tbrowder Yes, not fair. I do forget about the guide. Would be helpful for it to be in nice PDF form. 13:43
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tbrowder librasteve: need yr review of roast PR #865 (adds yr input to log2 tests) 13:46
[Coke]: one thing stopping contributing to an intro is figuring out how to get it into the current docs work flow. maybe you could start an intro and mention the raku.guide 13:53
(as a WIP)
ah, rakuguide has pdf capability 14:24
[Coke] what are your thoughts on providing a current pdf version on github/raku with a link to it in the new intro? 14:27
i will produce the pdf…
if no other vols 14:28
[Coke] I don't have anything to do with raku.guide. 14:45
Sorry
Or do you mean adding an intro to raku/docs? 14:46
docs.raku.org/ has The Raku Guide linked on the main page
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tbrowder yes, i will create the pdf version and put it somewhere in or under doc. yr TWO links should point to the online ver as well as the pdf version i will make according to the auth’s instructions. later we can automate the construction to keep pdf updated with source. 15:14
is that ok with you? 15:15
afk& for a while…
[Coke] I don't understand what you're asking 15:48
If you mean create a PDF of raku.guide - that's not me. 15:49
if you mean something else, let me know?
if you mean create a PDF of raku/doc - there is an effort for an ebook, would that be sufficient/overlapping? 15:54
but in general, more ways to consume docs++ 15:55
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tbrowder the existing “introduction” then needs a “foreword” section, a MUCH shorter chunk on top of the current page 16:18
sort of like an intro para or chapter in a book. 16:19
aren”t the current depiction of docs online sort of interim? otherwise i would be suggesting problems. 16:22
afk for a while…
[Coke] ? 16:25
"sort of interim" ?
I don't understand.
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tbrowder i guess my memory has deserted me, but then…time flies…forget that comment. 16:48
so, can’t we add a short lead-in section? 16:49
in the meantime, if i’ve offended anyone about anything forgive me. i love raku and you folks. my days are numbered, my memory is fading, and my todo list is longer than i can keep up with. 16:53
and i’m getting grumpier… 16:54
[Coke] yes, we can add a short lead in section 17:20
your ask was unclear, as you started out with raku.guide and pdf comments.
I'm not saying no, I'm trying to just clarify what your ask is. 17:21
adding more content on the intro page? sounds great, actually 17:22
timo i'm wondering if maybe some asciinema recordings could be attractive and maybe even helpful? though for code, i'm not sure it does much more than just a copypaste of an interactive session's output or something like that 17:32
[Coke] something like what's on raku.org main page? 17:35
oh, but more so, I guess.
I would say let's get that on the raku.org main page and replace the code samples there. 17:36
We might want to add something like that in like intro/ page on raku/docs, but I'm guessing not on every page.
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tbrowder oh i know that coke. and these msgs seem to intersperse out of order sometime which doesn’t help 17:39
librasteve i just got back from a trip … the raku eBook was essential on the flight … it worked well for me
tbrowder: sorry my comments in code golf were a bit grumpy too … don’t mean to be negative … there is much work to do 17:40
tbrowder amen!
librasteve on the topic of raku.org, my personal aim is to rewrite the site in Cro …. a lot of the recent Cro related blogging has been to get me ramped in Cro to do a fair job 17:42
tbrowder librasteve: what do you use to read ebooks?
librasteve very happy to collaborate if others want to join
[Coke] hasn't used an ereader in years, but is himself a grumpy old man.
[Coke] in fact just won a raffle at the local library that included about 2 dozen actual books. :) 17:43
timo libraries <3
librasteve not on my mac right now … i think its calibre
iirc
-Ogrumpy 17:44
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yes - calibre is it 19:54
coleman calibre is great. looks a little funky but it's solid 20:13
timo it does a whole boatload of stuff, too 20:25
remember when there was a large amount of attention on calibre for the piece that's built into it that handles automatic mounting of usb drives or something? 20:26
stanrifkin What alternatives are there to read epub and stuff? 20:27
I think on Windows SumatraPDF can read epub
timo i've read a few epubs/ebooks with Okular
i wanted to check if foxit has any support for epub or so, and immediately i'm presented with AI features again 20:28
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nijmegenzuigt I dont mind AI gen stuff in general but I wish it stayed out of editors ;_; 20:45
working in a privacy sensitive sector that stuff is a minefield
gonna have to switch to lojban meets klingon function names just to prevent someone else adding it to some LLM x] 20:46
ab5tract at least Raku opens up the vast wealth of unicode characters to support such efforts :) 20:47
nijmegenzuigt as if dodging MIT licenses wasnt enough
well, not just at least; it's why I use Raku now lol 20:48
ab5tract haha 20:52
nijmegenzuigt pays well at least but I've been going through 1.5 years of audit wrt code/legal/license review for software that took only a month to write so... haha ;_; 20:54
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librasteve wonders about licences - we have the tradition to use Artistic 2.0 here ... but as perl declines, so I worry that there is no longer attention on licence evolution - what are the pros / cons vs. MIT (or is there a better one like GPL 3 or copyleft)? 21:18
nijmegenzuigt well GPL has a EUPL equivalent 21:19
which is important because it means it is translated for every country's official language 21:20
meaning LESS lawyering
theres variations of MIT around that ask you to put attribution but they never specify where
you dont want to sit in a court where English is not the main language but the license the software is under is 🙂 21:21
lawyers make good money off of that
the EUPL having translations that take precedence over GPL while remaining the same in protection of end-user freedom means you can relicense it between them 21:24
the artistic license has never been brought up in my years of bureacracy at least 21:29
as a sticking point whereas MIT has :/ 21:30
tbrowder any good iPad readers for eBooks? most of the ones i've looked at don't have great reviews or are not real readers,but ymmv. 21:33
[Coke] (attribution) - for a project i'm on, we have to put the attribution in the about somewhere for user-fascing stuff, and in a readme in deployed container for all backend stuff 21:39
i think legal team assumes overkill is best. 21:40
librasteve so Arend in a non legal advice context would it make more sense for folks publishing a raku module to use MIT instead of Artistic? 21:46
nijmegenzuigt you can use MIT just fine 21:47
librasteve so should I cahnge all my Artistic to MIT?
nijmegenzuigt I dont see why you would 21:48
[Coke] GPL is a non-starter for any commercial project I've ever been on, fwiw.
librasteve 👍
[Coke] (as is CC)
nijmegenzuigt Artistic can change into GPL and EUPL
[Coke] Artistic is rarer than MIT, but I've not heard any legal issues with it. 21:49
artistic 1.0 can
nijmegenzuigt and GNU says EUPL is ¨dangerous" I think because it allows for more relicensing but it doesnt really account for ¨spirit of the law"
librasteve my fear is that artistic may also be a non-starter in the same weay
[Coke] Artistic 2.0 and 1.0 are not the same.
librasteve all my stuff 2.0 21:50
nijmegenzuigt never heard any consultant complaining about it
librasteve maybe this is a benefit of obscurity
[Coke] I've had it reviewed by the legal team at $DAYJOB, for what it's worth. 21:51
librasteve cool
[Coke] (for use in a commercial app)
librasteve can you share the outcome?
nijmegenzuigt ye I dont work in the commercial sector so theres another difference as well 21:53
[Coke] it was approved, no concerns, just continue to list attribution.
librasteve tx
tellable6 2024-10-17T21:52:15Z #raku-dev <tbrowder> librasteve when you get some spare time, please review rakudo roast PR #865
[Coke] Yup, definitely different considerations.
nijmegenzuigt Dutch and working in the physical/mental health industry
but the biggest danger there is other suits really 😛 21:54
librasteve kudos - hopefully not as messed up as the NHS
tbrowder: can you let me have a link? 21:56
pls
nijmegenzuigt the reason MIT was tough is because sometimes you have clients that cant read or have any understanding what their rights are if $COMPANY goes bankrupt 21:57
but this gets solved through legal overkill as said
librasteve aside: I did a deal with SAP and EMC a few years back ... one aspect of the contracts was to put their IP lawyer and our IP lawyer on the conf call (with bad connection, one german guy, our chinese-american guy working from home with a screaming baby) .... and ... just lawyer <=> lawyer speak ... they took 3 mins to agree (at $1000/hr), most was just peacocking their encyclopaedic legal knowledge 22:02
nijmegenzuigt hehe, we were okay with the lawyers until a consultant took home close to 100k euro at the end of the whole ordeal; since then family's get folders, USB drives, access to online platforms etc 22:04
you learn the lesson once 😛 22:05
I wonder how one gets such a cushy job where you dont actually do any of the work except drive around to meetings and are still technically in "IT" ;_; maybe as a blockchain expert 22:21
librasteve nah - cybersecurity 22:24
nijmegenzuigt I guess thats ever changing 22:27
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