lizmat nemokosch logging of Discord bridge should work again now 00:10
lizmat hopes to see someone on the Discord side to say something to be able to verofy 00:11
*verify
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[Coke] one sec 00:15
cokebot9000 speak friend and enter 00:16
lizmat whee!
ugexe++ for spotting the problem
also entries from the Discord side should now be rendered with the proper name 00:29
and now some sleep& 00:30
arkiuat testing 00:40
lizmat++ 00:41
nemokosch @arkiuat I have something for you 00:57
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I wrote a large comment to github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/504 but it failed - for now I'm going to assume that Steve blocked me on Github. I honestly don't want it to go to waste. 01:00
gist.github.com/2colours/8bc10d0ae...3291c5f22e I saved it in this gist 01:01
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SmokeMachine Would it be possible to create a `is thunk` trait to be used on custom attributes parameters? So, using && as example, something like this could be done: `sub infix:<&&>($a, &b is thunk) { return b if $a }` (oversimplified, of course) 02:50
nemokosch not in a proper function 02:53
the whole model should be fundamentally different for that, one can say functions would have to be macros
the problem is that by the time the function call happens, the arguments are evaluated 02:54
SmokeMachine Not possible to the operator definition change the grammar, right? That makes sense… so maybe a macro… I just learned you can create operators that are macros (I didn’t know that…) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/ff82...kutest#L57 03:10
Does anyone know how is the macro definition going? 03:11
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melezhik. o/ if anyone fancy to try out dead simple ci , welcome to betta testing . Thanks ( disclaimer - job scheduling is written on Raku ) - deadsimpleci.sparrowhub.io/doc/README . Thanks 06:24
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librasteve @nemokosch I do not have the power to block users on github, I agree that your gist should not go to waste 07:38
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lizmat nemokosch what is the error when you try to add a comment to a problem solving issue ? 10:11
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nemokosch I don't exactly remember but I think a perfectly generic error 10:44
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lizmat have you tried posting that gist again? 11:10
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nemokosch yes 11:19
Either way it's tied to Steve, I couldn't even add an emoji react to his posts and comments 11:20
lizmat which issue are we talking about ?
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nemokosch 504 I think 14:46
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lizmat I can't see anything weird about that issue. or the repo.... 14:57
please mail me a screen grab of the error that you get
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nemokosch I should have sent a mail 15:18
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arkiuat nemokosch, thanks! I'll take a look 15:54
nemokosch I don't want to throw a lit matchstick on an oil well but it really would be both interesting and important to think about the meaning and the reason of "people hate Perl" and how it concerns us 16:01
is there such a thing as a Raku style guide? 16:02
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patrickb In recent years, I've not had contact with "Perl sucks" opinions at all. But I do believe that Raku is in some respects an anti-thesis of most other languages out there. That can obviously be marketed as either "Raku does it wrong" or "refreshingly different". 16:37
antononcube After using Raku a few years, I cannot stand redaing/looking at Perl code. (I mentioned this maybe 3-4 times, already...) 16:38
So, I completely understand the dislike of Perl.
patrickb Relating Raku to Perl regularly helps me to give people a quick idea of where Raku is on the landscape. Most never heard of Raku but have at least heard the name Perl. 16:39
antononcube I think one of the main reasons "Perl sucks" is that is made a by a linguist who likes the English language.
I consider that POV to be "refreshing." 16:40
nemokosch or maybe SOV refreshing /s
patrickb Usually in these discussions heritage doesn't imply "same".
nemokosch I generally think it's two (or three if you really will) main aspects 16:41
One is the simple meme aspect in which people don't even have to know Perl, just here "Perl sucks" enough times
hear
the next one would be that the current "zeitgeist" is not really kind to unopinionated languages and the whole TIMTOWTDI approach 16:42
the rise of languages like Python, Go, Rust (vs C++), JS linters and TS, modern "C killers" like Zig, Odin, C3 or even Jai to an extent 16:44
korvo Why does it matter? All languages suck.
"...But some are useful," as the saying goes. Perl's useful to some people, it's not useful to other people, and this contrast is what generates the resentment. 16:45
nemokosch and the third one would be if you really want to break it down the syntax, the symbol-heavy nature, in a considerably different way from the C family
aruniecrisps I'm someone who doesn't know a lick of Perl, but enjoys Raku 16:46
korvo Also, don't take the zeitgeist too seriously; it's currently quite fascist. Case in point: Odin and Jai are produced by cultural cryptofascists.
nemokosch what can I say, I really dislike this whole attitude. I'm an engineer when I come here, neither a fascist nor a social activist. 16:47
aruniecrisps There are a lot of rough edges around Raku for sure in my opinion but it's rare that a language allows you that much flexibility
@korvo i do not get the appeal of Odin over something like Zig 16:48
Or Rust
korvo The appeal is wholly in the cultural attitudes of the community. I expanded on this here: lobste.rs/s/fcwjie/was_it_really_b...e#c_x6ejlq 16:49
The top thread on that page is from Zig's author, FWIW. While he doesn't see the cultural patterns as easily, he's largely of the same mind when it comes to politics and community. 16:50
nemokosch I don't care - furthermore, don't think anybody should care - about the politics of any of these people 16:51
in my dictionary, this kind of policing simply doesn't fit into the concept of freedom
or inclusivity, if you will
aruniecrisps I feel like this may be a topic for off-topic
Let's not clutter #raku
korvo Oh. Well, Free Software is definitionally communist, and communists are definitionally antifascist. You aren't required to understand this, but it's a core part of our community's history.
nemokosch I don't even agree with it - I think it's more libertarian if anything. There was simply a common interest and over time we could see that break down into two branches. 16:55
korvo Alternatively, Perl 5's decline is extremely cultural and political: www.beatworm.co.uk/blog/computers/...-technical 16:57
nemokosch anyway, why is it that I just came back like two days ago and somebody deliberately brings up crypto fascism and communism and all that 😅
korvo Because you threw "a lit matchstick on an oil well" when you asked folks "to think about the meaning and reason of 'people hate Perl' and how it concerns us," mostly. 16:58
nemokosch I don't consider that to be an invitation for literal political activism 16:59
korvo And your POV was the common popularity-contest view, where languages rise and fall based on the vibes and subjective opinions of engineers, possibly related to technical points.
What activism, precisely, is being invited?
nemokosch turning the whole thing into a political topic, policing authors and all that 17:01
korvo You asked a political question; the choice of which languages is used on a shared machine is a policy.
*which languages *are* used? English is hard.
nemokosch English is hard indeed. Alright, I'm going to disengage - I barely even remember the topic anymore. 17:03
korvo "The meaning and reason of 'people hate Perl'", etc. Anyway, I dropped a few interesting links full of words, mostly by other folks, that I hope you consider reading if you'd like to understand. 17:04
erry It's possible ot write raku in languages other than english, such as handwritten japanese 17:09
so no worries about english
erry disappears
antononcube @korvo "English is hard." -- yeah, and stupid... 17:21
@erry "so no worries about english" -- it is not that simple. Raku is designed by a native English speaker. (Or five.) 17:23
erry yeah i know, we need a true handwritten japanese programming language 17:24
i guess the handwriting part can be optional
antononcube Should be "easy" with vision-AI employed. Basically, programming code can be generated while you are writing. Say, top-to-bottom and right-to-left. Also, there some serious attempts to make 2D programming languages. 17:27
(Probably, all these are translatable to Raku...) 17:28
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nemokosch Anton knows how to sell stuff - but for a reason on another, it always ends up sounding like machine learning or data science 🙂 17:50
[Coke] as a native english speaker, I am pretty sure english is the worst. 17:52
lizmat nemokosch posted your gist: was it just impossible to post the response in that issue, or does the problem exist for all raku/problem-solving issues 18:07
?
antononcube @nemokosch I am really "forced" to deal / know LLMs, AIs, MCP, etc. 18:18
nemokosch lizmat: it's not all problem solving issues 18:21
lizmat weird... I can't see a setting that would prohibit posting, not at issue, not at the repo, not at the org level :-( 18:22
nemokosch not to falsify librasteve but since I cannot even add reacts to his posts or comments, I simply cannot think of anything other than some kind of user-level block 18:23
lizmat so you can't respond to #510 either ? 18:29
nemokosch I will check once I'm back on PC 18:35
lizmat ack 18:37
nemokosch I got kinda worried things would escalate but I think there was also a bit of misunderstanding (Re Perl hate) so let me give it another go
I have read that "downfall was cultural" article before; that's not what I meant to investigate
My question is: in the present, what drives the mocking of Perl, how it might affect Raku and what part of it can be addressed 18:39
For example, if the issue is parroting the name Perl in a negative context, then renaming the language was probably a helpful action 18:40
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disbot12 <nemokosch> If unopinionated tech is in decline overall, that's not something that we could turn around probably 18:42
<antononcube> y 18:43
<aruniecrisps> @nemokosch I think people are associating Raku with Perl less and less and people are slowly noticing things like multi methods, Subsets etc 18:53
<aruniecrisps> The stuff that makes Raku a gem of a language
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lizmat grrr why is the Discord bot now called "disbot12" ? 18:55
and on IPv4 instead of IPv6 ?
disbot12 <nemokosch> Well, I hope you are right 18:57
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disbot12 <aruniecrisps> @nemokosch I think Raku having lots of features of functional languages helps a lot 19:12
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disbot12 <nemokosch> I think this would be a different story... my concern has never been that Raku lacks feature X 19:18
<nemokosch> Anyway I didn't come here to discourage people. Hopefully there are a lot of people satisfied or looking forward to using the language 19:19
lizmat weekly: dev.to/lizmat/catch-control-i9o 19:27
notable6 lizmat, Noted! (weekly)
SmokeMachine korvo: I hope free software was communist… it’s definitely more communist than open source, and much more than closed code software. About antifacist, I would hope everyone was. nemokosch: nothing is strictly technical or apolitical… 19:43
disbot12 <aruniecrisps> @SmokeMachine question: if I wanted to force Red to run a query I would just append .Seq to the method calling the Red query right? 19:45
lizmat
.oO( you may want to ignore politics, but politics will not ignore you )
 19:46
SmokeMachine aruniecrisps: Yes, or just loop over it. 19:49
disbot12 <aruniecrisps> Got it, I was wondering why Bool coercion wasnt working originally but once I did .Seq it worked 19:50
SmokeMachine Bool coercion should run a query that would do a count and boolify it… 19:52
disbot12 <nemokosch> it doesn't have to be "strictly" apolitical 19:54
<nemokosch> to the people who read a lot into this not-strictly-apolitical nature of... quite literally everything with some sort of stakes: are you sure you have nothing left to do for the right thing to happen in your personal life and surroundings? 19:56
SmokeMachine aruniecrisps: github.com/FCO/Red/blob/7499121179...kumod#L342
nemokosch: that’s the thing, discussing and helping other people to understand the working class politics IS THE THING that will help my surroundings, my people and my kids in the future… 20:01
tellable6 SmokeMachine, I'll pass your message to Nemokosch
disbot12 <nemokosch> I can tell you first hand that it backfires 20:04
korvo Who defines the right thing? 20:05
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disbot12 <antononcube> Vocal minority often does. 20:09
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disbot12 <antononcube> There are several books and articles about that phenomenon. 20:10
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disbot12 <nemokosch> lizmat: confirmed the comment fails with the same error for issue 510 too 21:40
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