00:00 soverysour left
avuserow Technically there's another option for this struct in particular. It's only four `num32` fields so I can make it a `CArray[num32]` (for now) 00:07
00:28 sacomo left 00:42 sacomo joined 00:45 johnjay left 01:02 soverysour joined 01:07 soverysour left 01:16 sibl joined 01:38 Pixi left 01:46 Pixi joined 01:54 hulk joined 01:55 kylese left 02:07 Aedil joined 02:15 hulk left, kylese joined 02:43 sibl left, sibl joined 03:00 topnep left, topnep joined 03:03 sibl left 03:04 sibl joined 03:08 lichtkind_ joined 03:11 lichtkind__ left 03:24 vasko4535586 left 03:28 apogee_ntv left 03:29 apogee_ntv joined
apogee_ntv www.reddit.com/r/rakulang/comments..._for_raku/ Posted some example video. 03:29
x-posted to some terminal subs too, try to drive some traffic to Raku 03:30
03:30 vasko4535586 joined 03:37 johnjay joined, sibl left, sibl joined 04:06 sibl left 04:10 sibl joined 04:32 annamalai left 04:40 sibl left 04:52 sibl joined 06:40 sibl left 06:41 sibl joined 06:57 soverysour joined, soverysour left, soverysour joined 07:01 soverysour left 07:04 abraxxa joined
disbot2 <librasteve> apogee++ 07:22
<librasteve> weekly: www.reddit.com/r/rakulang/comments..._for_raku/
notable6 librasteve, Noted! (weekly)
07:32 abraxxa1 joined 07:33 Sgeo left 07:34 sibl left, sibl joined 07:35 abraxxa left
Voldenet that video is nice, too bad I can't use Notcurses::Native due to ancient cmake 07:46
(notcurses have `cmake_minimum_required(VERSION 3.21.0)`) 07:48
07:59 annamalai joined 08:01 sibl left 08:10 sibl joined
Voldenet I hate doing updates every 4 years :> 08:24
08:25 sibl left 08:33 abraxxa joined 08:34 abraxxa2 joined 08:37 abraxxa1 left, abraxxa left 08:38 abraxxa joined 08:40 abraxxa1 joined 08:41 abraxxa2 left 08:42 sibl joined 08:43 abraxxa left 08:54 sibl left 09:01 abraxxa joined 09:04 abraxxa1 left 09:39 soverysour joined, soverysour left, soverysour joined
apogee_ntv Voldenet: What OS are you on? 09:41
Voldenet debian ancient 09:44
09:45 acidsys left, acidsys joined
apogee_ntv Hm I doubt I can even cross compile a .so that'll work there :( all the deps will be different vers too 09:45
Voldenet Yeah, it's not fixable easily, a lot of stuff breaks if I recompile anything 09:47
such is the pain of not using apt-build and dpkg, but instead compiling things into /opt :D
apogee_ntv Compile modern cmake? :D 09:48
09:56 sibl joined 10:00 sibl left
apogee_ntv My Linux box is on sid 10:00
10:03 _________ left 10:17 abraxxa1 joined 10:20 Aedil left 10:21 abraxxa left 10:25 Aedil joined
Voldenet apogee_ntv: TIL notcurses requires fairly recent ffmpeg too… :D 10:46
apogee_ntv ffmpeg is an optional dep, you can compile without it but you wont get image/multimedia support 10:51
10:52 sibl joined 10:55 johnjay left 10:57 johnjay joined 11:00 _________ joined
Voldenet yeah, I think I'd have to finaly update that distro, otherwise I'd have to juggle LD_LIBRARY_PATHs 11:01
apogee_ntv If you dont like dist-upgrades you can always go rolling release :P 11:02
Voldenet I used rolling-release once, it basically lead up to something that wouldn't boot
led up, even
apogee_ntv I've run sid for like 4yrs and only hit 1-2 issues which were both resolved by pinning a package for a week or 2.
I heard it was much worse years ago. 11:03
Voldenet I don't dislike dist upgrade, it's just that my /opt has like 50 things built from sources
so I'd have to probably rebuild all of them :\ 11:04
apogee_ntv Yeah, that makes sense, I compile a bunch of stuff too but I tend to wrap it all in cmake so if it breaks I just recompile it with one command.
timo I find distros with either ostree base (fedora atomic) or something similar interesting for that reason; stuff can be relatively cleanly separated
apogee_ntv I am also a C dev by trade so its probably less painful for me. 11:05
If it breaks I can usually patch it.
Voldenet actually I used arch before, apart from becoming for some reason unbootable, pkgbuild was neat
11:06 librasteve_ joined
apogee_ntv pkgbuild is nice 11:06
I used Arch for a while
11:11 soverysour left
librasteve_ apogee_ntv: I like your approach to share Selkie on non-Raku forums like reddit/r/tui … 11:19
that’s the sort of thing we need to continue to spread the good word imo (and get some more converts hopefully)
apogee_ntv librasteve_: Yeah I want to drive traffic to Raku, I also made a PR to add Notcurses::Native to the notcurses readme alongside the Python & Rust bindings.
People need to see the word 'Raku' everywhere. 11:20
librasteve_ with Crag I tried reddit/r/cli (worked OK) and reddit/r/commandline (got booted by the mods for too low quality ;-()
apogee_ntv Yeah mine got booted from r/commandline and they didnt even tell me why lol. 11:21
librasteve_ b*st*rds
11:22 topnep left 11:24 topnep joined
disbot2 <simon_sibl> whats the state of raku documentation in the terminal, is there hope to get something close to perldoc soon ? 11:33
11:35 soverysour joined, soverysour left, soverysour joined 11:44 sibl left 12:29 abraxxa joined
apogee_ntv librasteve_: Replied to your reddit comment :D 12:33
12:33 abraxxa1 left 12:48 soverysour left
disbot2 <librasteve> =b 12:50
<librasteve> @simon_sibl great question -- in spite of (or maybe because of) the comprehensive and dynamic nature of docs.raku.org, I find myself pining for the days of perldoc (specifically perlop, perlfunc and perlre) 13:10
<librasteve> my MO was to have these flat files locally and then just search / grep the one I needed - more of a gigantic cheatsheet than the full docs / tutorials, references and so on 13:12
<librasteve> so - to the extent that there is some terminal based rakudoc that just does simply that I am interested ... but I am not sure that there is a need for the whole docs.raku.org content to be made available 13:15
13:15 soverysour joined 13:20 soverysour left 13:25 soverysour joined, soverysour left, soverysour joined 13:27 topnep left 13:29 topnep joined
disbot2 <simon_sibl> Oh yeah having the website doc or a one big page doc that can easily be made offline is exactly what I want, I mean anything that has the Raku doc and can be offline really 13:33
13:34 annamalai left, annamalai joined 13:38 soverysour left 13:39 sibl joined 13:51 soverysour joined, soverysour left, soverysour joined
disbot2 <librasteve> would you be happy with something like these five "static views": rakfunc, rakop, rakre, rakgram, rakoo (geddit?) 14:03
14:04 abraxxa1 joined, soverysour left 14:08 abraxxa left 14:11 dakkar joined
disbot2 <simon_sibl> hmmm, I still would like to see for example if I do .Str or .List the methods I can call on them 14:21
<simon_sibl> otherwise there is no way I remember for example .classlify which is super practical, or sometimes I forget how the flip operators work 14:22
<simon_sibl> flipflop*
14:30 sibl left
apogee_ntv librasteve_: I think getting Raku in front of people via non-Raku technical subreddits, application launches etc has to be part of the evangelism effort. It's one thing to say "you can build this in raku", it's another to say "I built this in Raku". If the language starts appearing in front of people curiosity will win. 14:42
HN is obviously another vector. 14:43
YouTube is a big one. 14:44
disbot2 <antononcube> Both HN and YouTube do "not care" about Raku, though. Especially, HN, is actively suppressing Raku articles/posts. 14:45
ugexe finese LLMs into using more raku vector 14:47
disbot2 <librasteve> apogee: yep … did you submit to HN? (massive audience but hard to get on front page as noted) 14:48
<antononcube> @ugexe What do you mean?
apogee_ntv librasteve_: I havent submitted to HN yet, I should.
ugexe the tools that llms use and suggest are making them a potential king maker in that area 14:49
disbot2 <antononcube> Right, this means just producing Raku-related posts and videos would make Raku more visible. 14:50
ugexe if you can convince them to use more raku somehow by seeding their training data you increase how often llms use and suggest those tools
disbot2 <librasteve> @antononcube not sure I buy that HN suppresses raku … certainly they don’t care and their algo promotes more popular things … for example Hillel Wayne notes his technique to build reputation and get to the front page (and that has included some raku content)
ugexe i dunno if just producing raku related posts and videos is going to do it as we will never win the quantity battle 14:51
disbot2 <librasteve> otoh, some submitters are downweighted imo
apogee_ntv Submitted.
ugexe they have to be specific types of posts and videos i would assume
disbot2 <librasteve> link? (we have 4-5 minutes to ramp comments)
apogee_ntv news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47766412
disbot2 <antononcube> @ugexe Yes, I was writing exactly that -- can't win popularity by posting "made with Raku"; it should be "made with Raku, and it is not easy to do with other systems." 14:53
apogee_ntv The quantity battle isn't straightforward. You don't have to win the quantity battle for programming, you have to win it for certain token associations. "What language should I use to write a DSL parser?" etc 14:54
disbot2 <librasteve> obviously I seek a genuine conversation… but quick comments feed the algorithm
ugexe that is true, but more-so what im thinking about is things like making the docs easily consumable by llms (maybe they already are), making instructions for how llms can do certain things easy for them to understand (i.e. how to install modules, develop, test, iterate), having descriptive commit messages to understand context and thought process of solution
disbot2 <librasteve> (also factor in author / comment er kudos)
<antononcube> @ugexe That was one of the "big observations" Stephen Wolfram made last year about Mathematica's documentation -- it is made for humans, but not necessarily for LLMs to easily digest and reason or suggest with. 14:56
<librasteve> I like the “crossing the chasm” approach to this … point is that it is not total activity, but activity density in a specific segment of interest (DSLs is our best bet imo) … 14:57
<antononcube> Yeah, but for "What language should I use to write a DSL parser?" Raku is not going to be suggested. The popular (or populist) languages are going to be first: Python, Rust, JavaScript, etc. 14:59
apogee_ntv Right because the training data isn't saturated with Raku articles/posts/comments that link Raku strongly to DSL. Token prediction isn't difficult to optimize for. 15:00
disbot2 <antononcube> Just confirmed what I thought is going to be suggested for that query: Python's "lark", Java's "ANTLR", and some Haskell and Rust blah-blah. 15:01
apogee_ntv Things like starring each others repos, boosting each others posts would go a long way. 15:02
disbot2 <antononcube> The problem is that "the language best for making DSLs" is not main criteria when deciding to make a DSL parser-interpreter.
apogee_ntv This is true, and it's also why I'm not sure the horse is a horse personally. 15:03
disbot2 <antononcube> It is where or with what that DSL is going to work/interface with.
<antononcube> And who is "next programmer" who might maintain it.
apogee_ntv You're not going to write your parser in something off stack just to have to dump it to some token format to push to rust.
imo Raku's strength is being duct tape and superglue. NativeCall is one of the nicest FFI interfaces I've ever used. 15:04
disbot2 <antononcube> Ideally, you can convince people to prototype DSLs parser-interpreters in Raku and then translate them to whatever convenient system/language.
<antononcube> Yeah, that has to be leveraged. There should be more "hijacking" Raku packages. 15:05
15:06 abraxxa1 left
disbot2 <librasteve> you HN got 3 points so far … needs about 6 in first 30 mins to get to FP 15:06
<librasteve> I said something nice about DSL::Examples btw
<librasteve> @antononcube i agree with your assessment… not sure if you read crossings the chasm, but the idea is that your solution needs to bring something unique to the segment you have picked, since you have to surmount the inertia 15:09
<librasteve> here the inertia is “just write my DSL with a lib in my familiar language” … so the benefit of Raku is (i) fast prototype, (ii) built in grammar is cleaner, (iii) superglue to drive APIs, make things, blah blah 15:13
15:14 david7832 joined
disbot2 <antononcube> Upvoted and commented the HN article... 15:15
<librasteve> =b 15:21
apogee_ntv The thing is LLM datasets wont just pull front page, those big module lists will get trained on. Repeat this hundreds of times and you start getting patterns. 15:23
It's an incremental gains problem. It has to be tackled deliberately. 15:24
disbot2 <librasteve> github.com/Raku/raku.org/issues/284 <== anyway I am planning to make a DSL focus page for raku.org (betting my tuits on the DSL horse) ... so please feel free to propose / comment / request content there 15:31
apogee_ntv antononcube if you ask Grok about Raku & LLMs it knows our names :D 15:32
I mean, from web search but it names us specifically lol. 15:35
15:43 soverysour joined, soverysour left, soverysour joined
disbot2 <antononcube> My Raku LLM packages started early, in 2023. But it took some time for web searches to produce results with them. For example, in Hacker News and Reddit there are more than a few questions / statements like "Why Raku is not used with / for LLMs?" 15:47
15:48 soverysour left 15:59 soverysour joined 16:04 soverysour left 16:11 david7832 left 16:12 sorenson left, sorenson joined 16:21 soverysour joined, soverysour left, soverysour joined 16:34 soverysour left
apogee_ntv Yeah I did the first 2 last year and more since then. 16:36
16:38 human-blip left, dakkar left 16:39 human-blip joined 16:56 annamalai left 16:57 annamalai joined, annamalai left, annamalai joined 18:59 obarb is now known as brabo
[Coke] is there a way to say "is there a todo() pending"? 19:17
would prefer not to have to also track a variable for it, but can
19:19 soverysour joined
[Coke] eh, ended up just avoiding the todo and skipping out on the test entirely. data is just too messy right now to worry about that test in those cases. 19:33
19:45 johnjay left 19:49 johnjay joined 19:56 soverysour left 20:24 johnjay left 20:28 johnjay joined 21:45 librasteve_ left
apogee_ntv Currently working on making all of my NativeCall modules easier to install by building deps in Github Actions and then getting Build.raku to download them unless you're on an esoteric platform 21:53
C deps, not Raku deps.
CRoaring POC works. Tokenizers next. Then Notcurses::Native which will be more painful. Then Vips::Native which is even more painful. 22:18
Tokenizers done. 22:45
They do need glibc 2.35 (~last 4 years) on Linux.

Powered by Cro and the Raku® Programming Language.

Please report any issues / comments / feature requests as an issue on App::Raku::Log.

Thank you!