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Set by lizmat on 23 May 2021.
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japhb Another possibly valuable (but far less easy to automate) task for volunteers is perf testing modules. (I say far harder because there's no obvious baseline to compare against, unless you're just looking for Rakudo regressions, or contribute a perf test to the module.) 00:46
My reason for thinking that is I wonder how much of the *perceived* slowness of Raku in actual use is low-level modules that haven't been optimized yet. 00:47
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rassoc perceived? i have measured my far from optimized, heavily allocating ruby tools and the raku ported counterparts, seeing 5x-100x slowdowns and *a lot* more mem usage, e.g. 34mb vs 2.3gb. now, handwriting some super hot stuff in nqp help quite a bit, sometimes even resulting in a slight speedup. that said, i don't think that that's the whole picture when it comes to perf, seeing what kind of mind-bending work jnthn has to do to free up a few cycles here and 01:27
there. anyways, time for bed. thanks again for the help above!
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japhb .tell rassoc Oh, I wasn't saying there aren't lots of places that need optimization. I meant, when someone sits down and says "Is Raku going to be fast enough for my needs?" then having slow and/or memory hogging standard modules can make the answer "No" without going any farther. One of many reasons that e.g. JSON::Fast and CBOR::Simple are rather heavily optimized. Because if you need them, there's a 01:53
tellable6 japhb, I'll pass your message to rassoc
japhb decent chance you need to do a *lot* with data in those formats.
.tell rassoc (message got cut) Because if you need them, there's a decent chance you need to do a *lot* with data in those formats. 01:54
tellable6 japhb, I'll pass your message to rassoc
moon-child 'write it in nqp' is the raku version of 'write it in assembly' 01:59
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john hello gents and ladies. 04:14
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Xliff \o 07:59
moon-child o/ 08:00
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melezhik . 14:51
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gfldex Does Raku being impossible to teach mean that we don't have to worry about being dragged into the GitHub Copilot debate? :-> 16:51
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[Coke] me: let me try something in raku. Realize I'm running an old version. rakubrew switch to the newer one I installed a month ago. realize I don't have zef. install zef, readline, back into raku.... have entirely forgotten why I came in this room. 17:25
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gfldex Maybe Micro$oft can write you an AI that suggests things worth remembering. 17:27
[Coke] probably already one in Azure somewhere. 17:29
lizmat well, what would keep MS from downloading open source modules from anywhere else to run Copilot on? 17:32
tellable6 2021-07-08T13:01:19Z #raku-dev <tbrowder> lizmat is there an issue with my rakudo docs PR #4441? my intent was to get published pretty much as is and let you experts add to it--a living WIP
gfldex lizmat: see: twitter.com/C64Revival/status/1412...7801189376 17:34
and for giggles: twitter.com/ferrix/status/1412813396123267073
Joking aside, if we would have a big userbase, this would be a problem for us. As I understand it, Copilot chops up publicly _visible_ code into sections of up to 10 lines of code and tries to find a match while you type new code in VS. And they don't care about the license of those 10 lines of code. 17:38
Not much a problem for Java, because that will always be fair use. In Raku 10 lines of code can be the whole bloody program. 17:39
lizmat but what would moving to Gitea or GitLab bring ? 17:40
gfldex M$ wont touch those. 17:41
Others might, but not M$. They got a good legal team.
[Coke] Is there a discussion to move us off github?
gfldex Not really. 17:42
[Coke] ok, good. :)
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polettix_ hello all 17:45
sub whatever (@x) { @x.shift } ; my @y = 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y); @y.say
evalable6 [1 2 3]
[2 3]
gfldex The cool thing is that not M$ is violating the license but the user of VS with that Copilot plugin. The user of Copilot is creating the derived work. So if you publish under any license that requires attribution, you can go and hunt projects that use 10 lines of code of your work. 17:46
Voldenet Well, people can find code in your project and steal it anyway
polettix_ wondering why @x "is rw" here, I thought parameters were supposed to be read-only by default
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gfldex m: say ‚Hi polettix_! Do you ♥ Raku?‘; 17:47
camelia Hi polettix_! Do you ♥ Raku?
Voldenet and people actually do that - if copilot generates something like that looks like "the whole bloody program" they may get suspicious
polettix_ gfldex: enough to try learning it :)
gfldex polettix_: We consider @x to be an object that you call public methods on. 17:48
And public methods are fair game. :)
polettix_ I see 17:49
sub whatever (@x) { shift @x } ; my @y = 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y); @y.say
evalable6 [1 2 3]
[2 3]
polettix_ this is a bit more objectable ;)
or maybe *less* objectable! (terrible pun) 17:50
Voldenet sub whatever (@x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y); @y.say
m: sub whatever (@x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y); @y.say
camelia 1..3
Cannot call 'shift' on an immutable 'Range'
in sub whatever at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet you could do this
polettix_ Voldenet: I was expecting @x to be considered immutable inside whatever() no matter what you pass it 17:51
anyway... it's what I was expecting, just this :)
gfldex m: sub oi(@a) is pure { @a[*]:delete }; my @a = <1 2 3>; oi(@a); dd @a; 17:54
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of "oi(@a)" in expression "oi(@a)" in sink context (line 1)
Array @a = []
gfldex polettix_: at least we are honest ^^^
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Xliff m: sub whatever (Map @x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; 18:31
camelia 1..3
Xliff m: sub whatever (Map @x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; hatever(@y); @y.say 18:32
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared routine:
hatever used at line 1. Did you mean 'whatever'?
Xliff m: sub whatever (Map @x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y); @y.say
camelia 1..3
Type check failed in binding to parameter '@x'; expected Positional[Map] but got Range (1..3)
in sub whatever at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: sub whatever (@x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y.Map); @y.say
camelia 1..3
Odd number of elements found where hash initializer expected:
Found 3 (implicit) elements:
Last element seen: 3
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: sub whatever (List @x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y); @y.say
camelia 1..3
Type check failed in binding to parameter '@x'; expected Positional[List] but got Range (1..3)
in sub whatever at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: sub whatever (List @x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y.Array); @y.say 18:33
camelia 1..3
Type check failed in binding to parameter '@x'; expected Positional[List] but got Array ([1, 2, 3])
in sub whatever at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: sub whatever (List @x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y.List); @y.say
camelia 1..3
Type check failed in binding to parameter '@x'; expected Positional[List] but got List ((1, 2, 3))
in sub whatever at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: sub whatever (List $x) { shift @x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y.List); @y.say
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '@x' is not declared. Did you mean '$x'?
at <tmp>:1
------> 3sub whatever (List $x) { shift 7⏏5@x } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@
Xliff m: sub whatever (List $x) { shift $x[] } ; my @y := 1..3; @y.say; whatever(@y.List); @y.say
camelia 1..3
Cannot call 'shift' on an immutable 'List'
in sub whatever at <tmp> line 1
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff There we go.
List == Immutable Array
Map == Immutable Hash
FYI 18:34
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Voldenet `my @whatever` creates an Array and `=` to it uses list assignment 18:38
m: my @y := 1..3; @y = 1..3; 18:39
camelia Cannot modify an immutable Range (1..3)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Voldenet but @y is only expected to be Positional
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Voldenet m: my @y = 1..3; @y = 1..3; 18:41
camelia ( no output )
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gfldex Xliff: did you consider NativeCall? 18:49
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gfldex m: sub whatever (List() $x) { shift $x } ; my @y = 1..3; whatever(@y); @y.say 19:09
camelia [2 3]
gfldex Also, the type constraint is missleading. It's a contraint what you can pass into the sub, not what the sub can do to the container it's being called with. 19:10
Xliff gfldex: What do you mean by "did you consider NativeCall"? 19:18
There. That's my 581,502nd line of Raku written... 19:20
Or there abouts...
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raydiak fwiw, I think polettix_ has a somewhat valid observation. at the very least, explicitly marking @ and % params as readonly should throw an error: 19:50
m: sub s (@x is readonly) { @x = 1 }; my @a = ^3; s @a; say @a;
camelia [1]
raydiak ^ LTA
and the error should look similar to:
m: sub s (@x is rw) { @x = 1 }; my @a = ^3; s @a; say @a;
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
For parameter '@x', '@' sigil containers don't need 'is rw' to be writable
Can only use 'is rw' on a scalar ('$' sigil) parameter, not '@x'
at <tmp>:1
raydiak the only way to actually make sure the passed var won't be modified, is: 19:51
m: sub s (@x is copy) { @x = 1 }; my @a = ^3; s @a; say @a;
camelia [0 1 2]
raydiak this all feels rather inconsistent to me
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gfldex raydiak: also, `is copy` does a shallow copy. We do have a few methods in CORE with the suffix `-rw` and the odd `subst-mutate`. So yes, there is inconsistancy. However, @a is a _container_. So it is mutable by definition. 21:01
NativeCall is the reason why there can't be any mutablility-rules that are enforced by the compiler. As soon as you are in C land, all bets are off. 21:03
So play nice or ppl wont use your modules. :) 21:04
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Voldenet There could be mutability rules enforced by the compiler by either marking routines able to even use NativeCall/routines that use NativeCall 21:16
or mutability rules that apply only to raku code by design 21:17
tonyo immutable everything 21:23
gfldex Voldenet: That is true. Raku is a programmable programming language. You can build your own type system to turn it into another language. However, that leaves the question why you don't code in Haskell if you want Haskell semantics. 21:27
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xinming Is there a place to list all modules change sorted by last modification date? 21:54
modules.raku.org/search/ <--- This just list all modules, doesn't support any sort options
gfldex raku.land/recent 21:55
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xinming thanks 21:56
Voldenet Hence `could be`, I'm not sure whether true immutability would even be practical without the language supporting immutable concepts 22:19
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japhb Voldenet: Raku *does* support immutability, it's just not the default used with shorthands: [] and {} give you mutable containers, so that's what people end up with by default. But there's nothing that stops you from manually creating Lists and Maps. 23:07
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moon-child there's (or, will be) also codesections' (‘codesections's’?) thing 23:17
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japhb moon-child: Yeah, the second spelling with the s's is correct. 23:25
moon-child I'm not sure if 'codesections' is plural or not 23:28
ah, chicago talks about 'nouns plural in form, singular in meaning', saying their possessives should be spelt like regular plurals. So it would be codesections', with no extra s on the end 23:30
(assuming you interpret 'codesections' as referring to multiple sections of code, which I think is reasonable) 23:32
japhb Well, for example "Miles" is a common name. When referring to something they possess, it is "Miles's". 23:34
I was assuming that any nick should be treated as singular if it refers to an individual, singular if it refers to a bot or mass noun, and plural if it refers to a group of people that share an attribute ("singers") 23:35
tonyo or, for possessive, just Miles' 23:38
codesections' talk is also correct 23:39
moon-child japhb: I don't know if 'Miles' the name is 'plural in form', though; I think it's just a singular word that ends in 's' 23:40
whereas codesections is clearely the plural of code section. Manual uses as an example 'the united states'; you wouldn't refer to a 'united state', but it's still plural
*clearly 23:41

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