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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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[Coke] Looks good on a quick read 00:29
Please consider converting to rakudoc and submitting a PR. 00:30
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grondilu Hi all 07:08
If I have a parametrized role A[::Type], can I access Type from an other parametrized role B[A]? 07:09
I suppose I could make an accessor method in A or something. method type { Type } 07:10
But what I really want is do something like `has Type $.x;` inside B. 07:11
`role B[A[::Type]]` is not valid syntax apparently.
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lizmat grondilu: it's not possible to do role B inside the lexical scope of role A ? 07:53
grondilu m: role A[::T] { role B[::T] { } } 08:38
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Cannot declare our-scoped role inside of a role
(the scope inside of a role is generic, so there is no unambiguous
package to install the symbol in)
at <tmp>:1
------> role A[::T] { role B[::T…
grondilu m: role A[::T] { role B[T] { } }
camelia ===SORRY!=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Cannot declare our-scoped role inside of a role
(the scope inside of a role is generic, so there is no unambiguous
package to install the symbol in)
at <tmp>:1
------> role A[::T] { role B[T]…
lizmat meh
m: role A[::T] { my role B[::T] { } } 08:39
camelia ( no output )
lizmat but I guess that doesn't help you
grondilu hum maybe it does
though there will be no way to access B outside of A, so I'm not sure that will work. 08:40
I'm not even sure both ::T refer to the same thing here in fact. 08:41
m: role A[::T] { my class B { has T $.x } } 08:42
camelia ( no output )
grondilu is confused as he thought he had tried that
oh well
why can't we have our-scoped packages inside roles, exactly? 08:43
moritz the role body runs each time it's applied, that's kinda not really compatible with our-scopes, afaict 08:44
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lizmat right. The other day I found out that roles are actually codegenned into a subroutine with the signature of the role, and which returns the meta-object and the lexpad at the end 08:46
this allows basic multi-dispatch to be used as the role selector :-) 08:47
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lizmat twas a bit of an eye opener to me :-) 08:48
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grondilu noted 08:56
FWIW I was trying to improve upon rosettacode.org/wiki/Elliptic_Curv..._Algorithm 08:57
I've never managed to have an elegant, yet generic way to implement that kind of structure.
like I wanted to have something like `role EC[::Field] { has Field ($.a, $.b); }` but then I didn't see how to implement Point in a way that would be connected to EC. 08:58
grondilu often deplores how OOP is not quite appropriate to model common math structures. 09:00
(or set theory for that matter)
Like a group is a set, but OOP uses classes and instances, not sets. So if I define a group as a class, an instance is not quite an element of the group. It gets messy quick. 09:02
lizmat yup :-(
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exp grondilu: if you could express these concepts analogous to mathematics then you'd have a 'compiling problem', does it compile forever or halt and produce a binary? :-p 09:57
also if you know of any good resources for someone with frankly poor algebra skills to understand the maths behind EC i'd appreciate it
i understand the concept of multiplying the point on the curve over the field to a reasonable degree
but i don't understand 'HD-Wallets', a key derivation scheme using ECC
grondilu what is it you don't understand? I mean we all understand some things up to some degree. Few understand fully. 09:59
exp grondilu: i don't understand how the same derivation process can be carried out on private/public key and produce a new pair 10:01
is this analogous to homomorphic encryption? i don't think so but it feels that way 10:03
grondilu not really, but there is an homomorphism involved, if I'm not mistaken.
exp i have designed an identity system for use online which is better than all existing systems i'm aware of 10:04
grondilu basically the private and public keys have homomorphic operations on them. that's why you can derive the same key from each of them.
exp but it relies on this process being rigorous
ie that a third party can issue a derived pubkey for a client without holding the privkey and without revealing any sensitive information
grondilu well yead that is the point in bip32 10:05
exp right, and it makes some sense to me, but with the greatest respect to the crypto community
assuming their take on cryptography is accurate is a potentially fatal mistake!
grondilu have you looked at learnmeabitcoin.com/? It's pretty good IMHO.
exp i have, i'm confident i understand both the standard blockchain and lightning etc 10:06
but it's the ECC concepts i can't find a gentle introduction to
(my proposal is unrelated to blockchains fwiw)
grondilu you just need to see an elliptic curve as an additive group parametrized by a Galois field. 10:07
exp ah yes, a monad is an endofunctor
:)
grondilu well, I'm not familiar with that terminology (which I assume is from category theory) 10:08
exp it's a meme
it's how you badly explain haskell
because anyone who asks for help is instantly blinded by category theory and told to go do an 8 year degree course
i don't know what an additive group is, or a galois field
and the wikipedia page for both will confuse me further as wikipedia's maths policy is: haha go do an 8 year degree course 10:09
grondilu well you need to know at least these : groups, fields, rings and so on.
exp right, but trying to investigate any of them is an exercise in frustration
grondilu otherwise any serious documentation about EC will be obscure to you.
exp people who already understand it, writing explanations only accessible to those who already understand it
exactly
i'm going to have to resort to paying someone to tutor me in this because the internet is so utterly awful for learning 10:10
grondilu algebra is hard, but it all depends how deep into the rabbit hole you want to go. I don't think you have to go very deep to understand cryptography, but you have to enter. 10:11
exp i would love to go quite deep, but it's the gatekeeping i can't manage to pass 10:12
grondilu So get a textbook about algebra or follow a course.
I think there are pretty good free lessons on YouTube too.
exp a textbook is a fine approach but of course they are £100+ each once you get to even reasonable levels 10:13
grondilu It's not "gatekeeping", it's just that accurate vocabulary is necessary to discuss thinks with rigor, which is crucial in crypto.
exp it's definitely gatekeeping, no other topic works like this
(not that i am trying to insult you, you're not responsible lol) 10:14
i picked up a book that promised to explain the concepts of a maths topic without getting into heavy maths 10:15
there was a triple intergal on page 8
grondilu well, integrals are part of analysis, not algebra.
so there is no reason to get into them for crypto 10:16
exp perhaps not, but the exact same applies i'm afraid
the wikipedia page for Field for example becomes impossibly ambiguous at word 6 10:17
grondilu Wikipedia is not great for math.
exp yes their policy is literally 'as many facts as possible' 10:18
making them readable or understandable isn't a part of that policy
but yes, to get past the first sentence i must understand set theory
grondilu A field is an invertible ring. Simple ;-) 10:19
exp right, in most disciplines you could go look those terms up and have a chance of understanding
in mathematics it's just opaque words all the way down
grondilu Well, you need a textbook that define them all. 10:20
exp well that's the definition of gatekeeping
anyway i've said my part, i don't mean to bitch at you
you're not responsible
just frustrates me that the knowledge is there but only if you pay certain people and waste months of your life just trying to illuminate the corners left dark intentionally 10:21
the difference between academic computer science and practical computer science is the same
grondilu free resources do exist : mathworld.wolfram.com/Ring.html 10:22
exp the academics can't even explain their concepts to the people doing it day to day, so we end up with 40 years of critical security issues
at least it's not hyperphysics
but how understandable do you think that is grondilu
grondilu that is just one example. some textbooks can be downloaded for free too.
exp they can, but how useful do you think a series of statements like that actually is?
i don't understand what a set is, i don't understand what a binary operator is, so cool now i have a vague list of things i won't remember that relate to concepts that are all just explained in the same way 10:23
grondilu exp: there are a lot of definitions to know in math. You have to learn them in order. If you do, it all makes sense. I was taught this at uni in the correct order but I understand that if you weren't all this can appear obscure. 10:24
exp right, that's exactly how i feel
grondilu basics are set theory and logical operators, IIRC. 10:25
exp set theory is truly insane though
2 is S(1)
3 is S(S(1))
years of this, just to understand the definition of something
grondilu well, it makes sense though, don't you think? 10:26
exp not to me
grondilu I mean I like this notion of integers defined in terms of successors. 10:27
exp i don't do well with being told "X is Y", "Y is Z", "Z is A" and so on
i want to understand the mechanics, the architecture, the infrastructure
not "it just *is*"
grondilu well, in math the "infrastructure" is set theory. 10:28
along with predicate logic. 10:29
exp right, but set theory itself is a multi year topic
grondilu nah
a few months at most
exp you don't see that as rather insane? it seems quite insane to me 10:30
a few months of work to understand the infrastructure to understand how to add numbers together?
grondilu I was taught just enough set theory to go on with further math. It didn't require years.
exp to me it doesn't feel like i am learning anything when i try and read up on this
grondilu I'm even generous. It could have been a few weeks, I don't quit recall. 10:31
exp just getting a bunch of unrelated facts thrown at you
learning something means i can do something new or achieve something i couldn't
grondilu exp: you are learning the vocabulary that is required for what's coming next.
exp i feel that argument supports my argument more though 10:32
months of work to learn the vocabulary?
is this a science or a language?
anyway i did say i'd shut up
i do apologise for the mini rant
i have a very busy job and a lot of personal things to attend to, and it frustrates me that maths is one of the only disciplines i simply can't learn
grondilu I understand your complaint. Let me find a relevant quote I have in mind right now.
exp because i don't have weeks or months to learn the basics of set theory
and i'm incredibly sceptical that this isn't just a form of cult (not in the religious / suicidal fashion) 10:33
grondilu lately I bought an algebra textbook, and in the first line the author summarises your issue well: 10:34
"This part introd uces the basic notions of algebra, and the main difficulty
for the beginner is to absorb a reasonable vocabulary in a short time."
it really is that : absorbing vocabulary.
exp i think the depth is a different factor too 10:35
like if i ask you what a pointer is
grondilu it's a cognitive barrier of entry, that is for sure. But it is necessary.
exp it will take one or two levels of explanation before we get to the actual hardware
well, i'm sceptical it's necessary too
obviously mathematicians do very well
but computer scientists have done extremely poorly
the subset of languages that are remotely safe is tiny, and very few people write code in them 10:36
everything academia has been trying to promote has failed because they can't make it understandable
we end up with "a monad is a monoid etc etc"
grondilu Mathematica is pretty good, though.
exp the proprietary software? 10:37
grondilu It's my favorite non FOSS program.
exp understood
from my perspective grondilu, the argument that the vocab is required is no different than teaching in latin and saying that's required too 10:38
i do understand your point, and i appreciate there are differences between english/latin and set theory
grondilu When you think about it, yes it's proprietary, but it's also conceptually simple and very well documented. One could argue it's almost as if it's open source because there is no hiding how it works.
exp but the fact that for every single topic i want to understand it only refers back to another topic explained in the same way is intensely frustrating
and most people just give up
imagine trying to learn french when every article was already in french
and the only viable approach was to pay people to teach you the basics of french so you could understand the rest 10:39
grondilu Well, the difference is that there is no alternative to math, when there are alternatives to latin.
exp that's not true, the alternative to rigorous mathematics is ad-hoc calculation
and that's the solution the vast majority of people use
when i want to design an algorithm, i can't approach the level of a formal proof 10:40
grondilu are you refering to so-called constructive mathematics?
exp so i bodge it so it seems right
i'm not sure, because that's another vocabulary i'm missing :)
lizmat also: S(S(1)) is just a notation for a mathematical concept, is it not? And if so, then it's a "sort of latin", is it not ?
exp lizmat: yes that is the point i'm making
that it's like trying to learn french when the only authors write in french
lizmat exp: that I disagree with 10:41
it's like learning to cook in french, when you don't know french
exp anyway i keep promising to shut up, i'll take some time to reply to any comments while i have a coffee
lizmat: hahaha Oui :)
grondilu well there are variations in the notations, but the concepts behind them are the same. S(S(1)) is "the successor of the successor of 1" 10:42
lizmat exp: and a croissant!
grondilu unless you mean S as singleton, which is an other way to define integers IIRC
lizmat grondilu: just like there is more than just latin :-)
grondilu point taken
exp grondilu: is it "le" or "la" croissant?
grondilu huh? 10:43
exp the concept of gendered words doesn't exist in English
grondilu oh
exp when someone says "a ring is a set with binary operators" it is virtually impossible to visualise what that *actually* means 10:45
because the vocabulary is introduced before the concepts
because they only know how to explain the concepts in french
grondilu well there is no semantics behind gendered words for non-animated objects. They are linguistically useful as they differentiate words, especially when using pronouns. There is no such usage in math. I don't think so anyway. Math concepts must have an actual meaning.
exp: I disagree. A ring has a meaning. What I can understand is that it's hard to see it's *use*, but that is different. 10:47
*use* or *purpose*.
exp grondilu: there's meaning behind both types of statements
grondilu but that purpose becomes clearer as you go on further.
exp my point is that introducing the vocabulary before nailing down the concepts leads to this sort of gatekeeping / intractability
grondilu it's basically as the saying goes "it all makes sense eventually" 10:48
exp right, that's something i've been told a lot, and i hate with a passion
i feel like everything i know and understand makes sense immediately, from the lowest possible level
grondilu it's like when I learned quantum mechanics. It's like suddenly I realized what linear algebra is good for. 10:49
exp that is probably not true, but i certainly feel more confident in explaining it than anything to do with mathematics
when i learned electronics, i did not spend 3 years being taught quantum theory
even though that is the underlying reality
imagine trying to understand what a resistor is but first you have to understand the many worlds interpretation lol 10:50
grondilu Well for math, there's certainly a "trust us, it will make sense later" aspect to it.
exp if i could summarise my argument in a sentence it would be: "Trust is, it will make sense" hasn't worked, has lead to billions in economic losses and is part of the reason almost nothing actually functions properly these days 10:51
big claims :-p
mostly directed at computer scientists than pure maths ;)
grondilu there are certainly many people who try to vulgarize math with various degrees of success. This approach is useful, but it never manages to teach math in a way that provides true proficiency. 10:52
exp another analogy: imagine you wanted to know how a radiator worked, but first you were told you had to be able to write a navier stokes solver 10:53
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grondilu you don't have to know set theory to do all math. But you do for some subjects, like crypto. 10:55
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grondilu there is no known way around it. 10:55
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exp i don't have any argument against that, just that i feel it's the method of teaching that's the problem 10:56
i do want to explore the concept i worked on to a much deeper level
but i am just stuck, i can't afford years of study to publish a whitepaper
and i don't know who to trust to pay to help
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grondilu you should have to pay, that is for sure. 10:57
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grondilu Altough to be honest I don't know if I would be capable of learning math by myself, had I not been taught it at uni 10:57
exp i was taught to basic calculus level then dropped out
my biggest regret 10:58
but i don't see why i should have to pay
grondilu you should *NOT* have to pay, that is for sure. <-- correction
exp oh lol
well i don't mind paying
but there's no way to gauge if the person teaching you is a quack or accurate
grondilu exp: there isn't, indeed. In fact, I studied math mostly during two years. Two different teachers. The first one was awesome and it got me hooked. The second one was terrible and it got me discouraged. 10:59
s/it/he/ 11:00
exp perhaps i can just publish a bunch of rough descriptions with diagrams and rely on crowdsourced mathematics :D 11:01
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exp the tldr is: if you can indeed derive pubkeys and privkeys separately, you can give a derived pubkey to a public organisation to attest on your behalf 11:01
if you do that as part of regular account signup, then you have a network of attestations as to your identity 11:02
if you get messaged by "exp" on any software, i can pass an arbitrary list of attestations, you can then contact that organisation and ask for a derived key which you then encrypt a message to me and supply the derivation path 11:03
i reply with a similarly encrypted copy of the cleartext, proving our identities to each other
this can be extended to prevent reusing passwords between accounts, and will mean any compromise bisects that identity into the compromised account and the legitimate accounts 11:04
i need to put this on a sound theoretical footing
grondilu yeah you need to put this in more details because it's hard to follow as you wrote it there
what is it you want to achieve again? 11:05
exp a privacy preserving system for online identity proof
grondilu a decentralized one?
exp it would better be described as federated i think
for example, you can ask nickserv if i am actually 'exp' 11:06
grondilu ever heard of DIDs?
exp yes but i can't remember offhand the implementation
oh this is a W3C thing, i was thinking of something Mozilla worked on 11:07
grondilu well, reading the w3c spec is still on my TODO list, so I can't quite tell how it works.
exp anyhow i've been talking about this since 2017 so i claim prior art :-p
back to the example quickly, so i'm exp here, but am i exp on say the Perl IRC? 11:08
grondilu I don't know, again I need to read the w3c DID spec one of these days. 11:09
from what I know though, I think they're up to something good close to what you're looking for. 11:10
exp so i could give you a pubkey here, you could encrypt something with that and send it to me on the Perl irc
and if i can decrypt it, then it's me
what if instead i gave you a 'root' pubkey, and a derivation path, same thing right?
grondilu well that would be susceptible to a 3rd party attack. 11:11
exp how so? we're assuming you've checked nickserv attests that i'm identified as the 'exp' account
grondilu then you put your trust in the IRC server admins, no?
exp yes absolutely 11:12
but the concept is still roughly valid
grondilu well, that defeats the purpose, doesn't it?
exp you can get a root pubkey, do the same derivation, encrypt a message, send it to the potential identity
right?
grondilu I dunno. Again, I need to read this spec.
exp this isn't DID related
this is me trying to quickly go over my proposal :p 11:13
grondilu it's the same objective.
exp i don't think it is exactly
grondilu anyway, gotta go.
exp no worries, thank you for the discussion
sorry to bore this channel :)
lizmat exp: no worries 11:25
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Geth Raku-Steering-Council/main: 52d92b871f | (Nick Logan)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | minutes/20230401.md
Add RSC meeting minutes for 2023-04-01
 15:09
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Aozen is raku stable can we build actual applications or software with it? ( i am a beginner so please bear that in mind) 17:15
lizmat yes: note the list of companies at raku.org (scroll down to the bottom) that use Raku in production 17:20
Aozen oh cool ^^ 17:29
so i am planning to go all out on raku
basically i wanted perl but then i learned about perl 5 and 6 and
well i want to learn raku after hearing larry wall
perryprog anyone wants anything after hearing larry wall
Aozen and if i need to go back to perl 5 i will but i want to get good at one thing
XDD oh perry that that is nice 17:30
he really is very cool and i appreciate the thing he gave us
i spent 2 years just deciding on a language and i ended up picking perl
and brain damage from wiki and the list of all programming languages XD
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Anton Antonov Is there any "standard" way -- i.e. programmatically -- of converting a grammar rule into a grammar regex? I can, of course, make some string manipulations (e.g. replacing the "correct" spaces with " \h* ", etc.) but there might an existing solution. 17:39
lizmat in RakuAST that would be trivial 17:40
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lizmat as at the RakuAST level, the only difference between a rule and a regex, is really the name 17:41
they're all RakuAST::RegexDeclaration objects
Anton Antonov @lizmat Well, rule { [dark | milk] kit kat} should be come regex { [dark | milk] \h+ kit \h+ kat}, so I would assume it is not just the name... 17:43
lizmat but it is :-)
Anton Antonov @lizmat Great! I will look into RakuAST::RegexDeclaration then. 17:44
lizmat m: say Q|my rule foo { a b }|.AST.statements.head.expression 17:45
camelia RakuAST::RuleDeclaration.new(
scope => "my",
name => RakuAST::Name.from-identifier("foo"),
body => RakuAST::Regex::Sequence.new(
RakuAST::Regex::WithWhitespace.new(
RakuAST::Regex::Literal.new("a")
),
RakuAST::R…
lizmat m: no worries; say Q|my regex foo { a b }|.AST.statements.head.expression
camelia Potential difficulties:
Space is not significant here; please use quotes or :s (:sigspace)
modifier (or, to suppress this warning, omit the space, or otherwise
change the spacing).
------> my regex foo { a⏏ b }
RakuA…
lizmat meh, please compare the AST of these two
apart from the name of the class, they are the same 17:46
I guess I could add a "transmogrify" method that would take the class you want, and clone everything else 17:51
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Anton Antonov @lizmat Thank you for your clarifications! 19:28
lizmat you're welcome: I happened to be deep into that in the past weeks, delaying the application of significant whitespace until QAST time 19:29
see github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/6a...b9584e3922 for the actual commit 19:30
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PipStuart Greetings. Is there any decent way to write Raku code to use ncurses? 22:27
perryprog There's github.com/azawawi/raku-ncurses 22:28
PipStuart perryprog: Thanks!
perryprog Yup! 22:29
22:45 linkable6 left, evalable6 left 22:46 evalable6 joined 22:48 linkable6 joined 22:49 abhinav left, abhinav joined 23:07 an3223_ left

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