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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
00:04 arkiuat left
antononcube @lucs It sounds to me like “harc — what?” 00:19
00:36 jjido left
Xliff librasteve: Have you heard of Emmet? 01:22
librasteve: www.youtube.com/shorts/4AqrlPm9i8s 01:29
librasteve: Think you could emulate something like that with Air?
scullucs The #perl guy's nick was arkuat. His real name was something like Eric Watt. 01:30
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librasteve lizmat: on better crag ... I thought I had fez it about 5 days ago - just tried again (v0.0.25 is the new one) since it did not take 07:15
hmmm - my normal worflow is fez upload immediately followed by zef install App::Crag --force-install which on other project within a minute or so gets me the new version ... I have tried this with latest App::Crag with a 2 mins delay and still see the old version ... will try in 10 mins 07:19
(this after a good fez >>= Hey! You did it! Your dist will be indexed shortly.) 07:20
Xliff: on Emmet lol
tellable6 librasteve, I'll pass your message to Xliff
librasteve so you like that div.div$*#=3 makes <div class="div1"></div><div class="div2"></div><div class="div3"></div> ? [obviously you were a perl coder ;-)] 07:25
if Air you would write div :class("div$_") for 1..3 07:30
App::Crag fez upload still was not indexed after 10 mins - will try again when I get a break 07:32
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wayland76 tbrowder , think of a pod as "a group of containers that typically contains one container, but more is not unusual (about 1/3 of the time where I work). You're right that the Perl use predates k8s, but it's probably more well known at this point. 09:24
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librasteve time to reclaim the name pod 10:04
btw there is a cool podlite.org resource out there for those that haven't been following the rakudoc story in detail 10:06
ok App::Crag v0.0.25 is now indexed - so must be happening on ~ hourly basis these days 10:08
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tbrowder lizmat: i was in bed last night without ready access to web. i haven't looked at docs yet but my memory of the situation internally is that the time porr 10:48
*time portion, if it has no reference to Z, is local time and the :timezone arg is essentially zero and has no effect on the result. 10:50
i do remember the many subtle signatures for the DateTime constructor were hard to distinguish, and there was no easy way left for a new variant. besides, you were concentrating on higher priority time issues. perhaps with RakuAST that can change. 10:55
librasteve, thanks, you did recomend harc before, and it does look like a good candidate. 10:58
and podlite is very interesting, but i'm too invested in raku using rakudoc to head in that direction any time soon 11:00
hm, i just added that "theory" to my test and it's wrong. looking more like a bug. checking docs... 11:10
checking core.c...erg, i may be too old for this... 11:26
no...just a challenge 11:46
Guest72 forgive me if I'm speaking out of ignorance, but from my read of the docs, julian-date and modified-julian-date are expected to return UTC time regardless of the object's timezone 12:17
so maybe github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/75e3...kumod#L528 just needs to be using self.utc instead of self? something like my $utc = self.utc above it and then use $utc instead of self on that line?
it'd be more efficient not to construct the intermediate utc object of course, but then you'd have to replicate all the logic in method in-timezone 12:18
tbrowder you are right about the definition and our (i'm the guilty party) implementation. we don't have a specific method to convert julian-date back to local time, but we could (and probably should) add one. 12:22
Guest72 but the problem isn't converting back, it's that julian-date is ignoring the timezone offset, right? that's what .utc would fix, if I'm not mistaken 12:24
tbrowder probably so
Guest72 m: for ^3 {DateTime.new("2025-05-19T17:00:00"~"%+03d".sprintf($_)).julian-date.say} 12:25
camelia 2460815.208333
2460815.208333
2460815.208333
Guest72 m: for ^3 {DateTime.new("2025-05-19T17:00:00"~"%+03d".sprintf($_)).utc.julian-date.say}
camelia 2460815.208333
2460815.166667
2460815.125
tbrowder Kelly? 12:26
Guest72 aye
tbrowder salud!
Guest72 howdy :)
tbrowder wanna send me a current email and address? 12:27
Guest72 seriously I've just been lurking until lizmat pops up to talk to her about my abandoned modules, but I keep seeing things talked about I could help with and I have a hard time keeping my mouth shut lol
sure one sec I'll pm it 12:28
tbrowder thnx
librasteve tbrowder: I would say that to use Air for a simple, low scale website at the moment is pretty easy and gives you a nice looking result without much effort ... 12:30
the limitation right now is that (until Themes become a thing) you are limited to Pico CSS and the various CSS variables as theme controls 12:31
so, if you like this site picocss.com or this one harcstack.org (note the lightdark is an Air widget) then could be its for you, if not then if aint gonna work 12:32
tbrowder back to julian-date. as Guest72 said, a .utc seems to do the right. another confusion is the :timezone arg is in *seconds*, so incrementing by 1 in the op's example wouldn't do what the user expected anyway 12:48
m: my $d = DateTime.now 12:50
camelia ( no output )
tbrowder m: my $d = DateTime.now; my $j = $d.julian-date; my $z = $j.utc; say $d; say $j; say $z 12:52
camelia No such method 'utc' for invocant of type 'Num'. Did you mean any of
these: 'tc', 'uc'?
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
tbrowder m: my $d = DateTime.now; say $d 12:53
camelia 2025-05-20T14:53:44.716588+02:00
Guest72 m: my $d = DateTime.now; my $j = $d.julian-date; my $z = $d.utc.julian-date; say $d; say $j; say $z 12:54
camelia 2025-05-20T14:54:04.641745+02:00
2460816.1208870574
2460816.037553724
tbrowder m: my $d = DateTime.now; my $z = $d.julian-date.utc; say $z 12:55
camelia No such method 'utc' for invocant of type 'Num'. Did you mean any of
these: 'tc', 'uc'?
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
tbrowder hm, in my offline test that seemed to work... 12:56
Guest72 utc returns another datetime, but julian-date returns a Num so .utc.julian-date, not .julian-date.utc 12:58
tbrowder yep, thnx
Guest72 yw
wonder why it seemed to work 13:00
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Guest72 my connection is flaky, webchat on rural dsl. forgive me if I miss anything 13:08
tbrowder my bad, it didn't
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tbrowder m: my $d = DateTime.now; my $x = $d.Duration; say $x 13:25
camelia No such method 'Duration' for invocant of type 'DateTime'
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
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tbrowder i'm fiddling to see if we can go from a given julian-date to a local time, but i thinks it's a busy algorithm and we need a new time routine to do that. actually, distri DateTime::Julian provides that now 13:35
*distro 13:36
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arkiuat lucs: I don't know if my last message went through, but yes, same as arkuat from #perl back in the old days 14:08
antononcube @arkiuat How long have you programmed / used Perl? 14:17
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arkiuat antononcube: I first learned Perl in 1996 and made my living mostly with it after that until 2001. It and now Raku has remained my fave since then, although I'm only hobbyist coder now. 14:30
[Coke] ah, someone from my era. :) 14:34
I first started using perl in the mid 90s... on xenix and SCO 14:35
arkiuat (catching up on tbrowder and Guest72/Kelly's discussion of the issue I filed). Thanks to both of y'all! The discussion is very illuminating
antononcube Good to know. I tried a to use Perl in 1998 for data pre-processing (for my PhD work.) Got scared by how I could not understand the Perl programs I wrote after a day or two, and rewrote them in Python. 14:43
BTW, I read / followed Larry's book on Perl at that time -- very interesting and funny. 14:44
I think in the last 3 years I have earned close to an annual average developer salary via Raku. 14:50
arkiuat antononcube: Raku is a big improvement! 14:54
lucs arkiuat: Hi! So it is you. 14:56
Been a while, eh :) 14:57
Such a long while that I wasn't even sure of your original nick anymore and had to go through some old notes.
arkiuat yes, it has been some time 14:58
lucs You might remember the birthday list I used to maintain for people in the channel, that's where I confirmed the nic,
k
Brought back a lot of memories of people who hung out there back in the day.
arkiuat Now that you maintained a birthday list is one thing I had forgotten 14:59
BTW, Guest72/Kelly completely explained how to do what I was trying to do when I ended up in the dead end that led to my filing the issue
lucs Welp, I know your birthday, but nowadays, stuff like that is private, eh, so I won't tell :)
arkiuat thanks! 15:00
lucs I'm retired now and have put Perl completely aside, it's Raku all the way now. 15:01
tbrowder ditto!! and no python whenever possible (most of the time) 15:16
arkiuat good to hear, and congratulations
I too am strangely reluctant to return to Perl, even though there are modules I'd like to use that exist in Perl but not yet in Raku. I guess that means I get to be the one to reimplement them 15:23
Although it doesn't really work that way in practice: I'd end up implementing something better suited to my specific purpose that doesn't replicate the Perl module that does *most* of what I want 15:24
lucs Reimplement is one way, but a lot of the Perl modules can be used in Raku by using the Inline::Perl5 Raku module. 15:27
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arkiuat tbrowder, thanks again for your help on that issue 15:32
lucs arkiuat: Did you catch my "try Raku's Inline::Perl5 module" message? 15:33
arkiuat lucs, that's true, but even when I find myself using modules that in turn use old Perl like List::MoreUtils, I always find I want drop those and reimplement whatever it is the native Raku way. It's an itch
lucs I know what you mean: I'm like that too. 15:34
arkiuat if I were getting paid to do this, things like Inline::Perl5 might be very helpful
lucs Hey, why did you change your nick? Was the original already taken? 15:35
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arkiuat lucs, no, but I've been using arkuat as a handle for so many decades that I decided a change would more easily distinguish current incoming messages from blasts-from-the-past (including the spam that does get through, etc) 15:41
lucs Ah, makes sense.
arkiuat also, arkuat was an ignorant ancap with horrible politics, while arkiuat is more of a Pikettyan. my ways have changed in other matters as well, so i wanted to distinguish myself a bit from my past self
anyway, this web connection is no good. I'll be back later from ssh+screen (yeah, I know I should switch to tmux) after I look around for whatever is a good text-mode client these days 15:42
lucs Well, welcome back, and see ya. 15:43
tbrowder arkiuat: you're welcome, yr issue was timely, though, and pointed out the hole in the docs
arkiuat tbrowder, good to hear!
lucs (I still use irssi.) 15:44
arkiuat lucs, thanks for the tip
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[Coke] I made the switch to tmux a while ago and... it's fine? I think the one thing I appreciate is that my mac iterm2 automatically reconnects to remote tmux sessions after it restarts. 15:46
lucs [Coke]: Yeah, the "keep remote sessions alive" is a key feature. 15:47
tbrowder [Coke]: for a doc pr, would you accept a ref to DateTime::Julian for converting julian-date to DateTime, or would you prefer a rakudo issue to add a new DateTiime routine to do that?
(along with a doc 15:48
PR)
[Coke] opening a rakudo issue isn't for me to decide on that. 15:49
As for the other... I guess that's OK 15:50
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arkiuat tbrowder, I think the main thing is that the docs ought to make clear that julian-date ignores timezone information 15:52
Kelly pointing out that all you need to to get an accurate julian-date from a DateTime is add a .utc prefix to the call was enough for me 15:53
lucs, I've just installed irssi... it was quicker than I expected 15:56
lucs Ah, nice. I hope the config won't be too painful.
arkiuat default config seems to be working fine so far
tbrowder, right now the docs do say that it returns the JD for the UTC date and time, but it doesn't explicitly say that any timezone info in the DateTime is ignored, and I think that does need to be pointed out 16:01
the doc I'm referring to here is docs.raku.org/type/DateTime#method_julian-date 16:03
tbrowder yes, but for real use, an astronomer would start with a julian-data, the other way is trivial 16:05
julian-date
the docs correction for current use will be done regardless 16:06
i 16:07
gotta go to dentist...ugh...bye
lucs arkiuat: If you're into Discord, this channel and a few other Raku ones are bridged to a Raku Discord server. 16:10
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[Coke] ... I will hazard a guess that someone from my era is more IRC than discord, but am curious. :) 16:23
arkiuat I was using Discord for a while, and it's my only way to keep in touch with certain current local friend groups (the ones who aren't also on Fediverse), but I don't like the way it fragments its community 16:29
[Coke] is right, I'd never use Discord as a bridge to IRC
lucs Just thought I'd mention it.
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lucs For programming stuff, I prefer IRC, but for things like chess problems (I like those a lot), Discord makes it easier to display diagrams. 16:30
scullucs I just wonder how long it will take for Discord to enshittificate... 16:32
arkiuat I used to play go/baduk/weiqi on OGS a lot, but almost all the ancillary communication there went on in the attached Discourse server: more like BBS than chat 16:33
and of course players can chat directly with one another on OGS itself 16:34
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scullucs I seem to be unable to reach commaide.com since a couple of days. 19:32
Anyone else?
librasteve commaide.com is dead to me also 19:36
i can't say if this is the true eol or whether something got crufty and needs a restart 19:39
i think anyway that comma IDE has lost support and will soon just fall over since it is not being maintained to Intellij latest versions. if you want the commaide goodness then suggest you try a vanilla version of IntelliJ (Community Edition is free as in beer) along with the Raku 2.0 Plugin (formerly known as Comma Plugin) 19:43
scullucs What I'd actually like is a terminal based debugger, without all the fancy GUI stuff. 19:45
lizmat scullucs have you tried the "repl" subroutine ? 19:46
librasteve doesn't raku have debug? (genuine question - I use say for debuggin)
I did use the repl once also 19:47
scullucs I want to be able to trace through code, setting breakpoints, examining state, stuff like that.
librasteve lizmat: can you run the repl via STDERR (ie in a launched Cro server)
scullucs repl is a good first step in that direction I guess. 19:48
lucs Anyone familiar with using App::MoarVM::Debug ? 19:49
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scullucs cd 20:13
[Coke] (comma IDE) didn't abstract put in a LOT of effort on the IDE in the past few months?
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whistlingzephyr testing bot's name update 20:31
hmm, disbot1, I guess a previous bot was already named disbot?
Voldenet lucs: mv2d is more up to date - App::MoarVM::Debug doesn't work for me 20:33
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Voldenet but since it really lacks "step over", you have to put tons of breakpoints to debug anything 20:35
whistlingzephyr lizmat: do you manage the irclogs.raku.org logs? or I forgot who does, but its Discord bot's username recognition config would need to be updated. changed the bot's name because the previous one was reported to be too long for some IRC clients (e.g. on mobile) 20:36
Voldenet otherwise, you're too deep into internals fast
lucs Voldenet: What's mv2d?
Voldenet raku.land/zef:slid1amo2n3e4/mv2d 20:37
lucs Thanks
Voldenet overall it's a solid tool though, it's very easy to get it running 20:38
antononcube @Coke "Comma IDE" is a standalone app. What ab5tract worked on is the Raku plug-in for "standard" IntelliJ IDE app. 20:40
lucs Seems to be built around (or over, or something) App::MoarVM::Debug (same "step into"-only limitation).
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Voldenet lucs: yeah, it's a fork 20:44
in fact, installing both of those doesn't work too well iirc
lucs Looking at A::MVM::D, it seems as though slid1amo2n3e4 20:47
has incorporated some of his mv2d code there.
nahita3882 there is also Dawa: raku.land/cpan:BDUGGAN/Dawa 20:52
scullucs Hmm... Looks interesting, will try it out. Thanks. 20:56
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lizmat whistlingzephyr website adapted, thanks for the headsup! 22:32
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whistlingzephyr awesome 22:50
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