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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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Voldenet erry: I use raku for scripting at work, but I do mostly scripting on the side, because nobody else can even read it – most "production" code is in csharp, java and typesscript 04:14
the problem with raku is a bit like stack-oriented languages, you can do a lot very quickly and without typing much, but because of that it's too difficult for most people 04:21
to the point where I can imagine that production use of raku would be somewhat simplified - short DSL libraries, no custom grammars, hardly any smart ops use 04:24
oversimplified to the point that it looks like ajva 04:25
java, even
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Voldenet …or very tailored to the use case that no language is tackling well 04:34
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wayland76 librasteve: Just saw your article at rakujourney.wordpress.com/2024/11/...ciliation/ and wanted to mention that, while you probably already know it, every cPanel machine has to have Perl because cPanel is in Perl. :) 08:06
erry: I was going to say that your approach should probably be to use langchain for a private project, then list yourself with langchain experience (and note that it's for a private project). HTH, 08:11
Also, for the "Raku at work" thing, I mostly don't, but I *did* use it for a firewall replacement project where I wanted to translate the firewalling code from one firewall language to another. 08:14
The main reason I don't use it at work is because we're a PHP house, and it's deemed useful for others to be able to understand my code.
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Geth examples/main: b5598e1c29 | (Will Coleda)++ | t/000-check-dependencies.t
This test just verifies deps are installed.

Duplicative of info in 'zef install --deps-only .'.		 08:40
examples/main: 3fac5104f5 | (Will Coleda)++ | README.md
Note site is being archived

Part of #104
[Coke] Oops 08:44
(that was done on main but I think I pushed to master somehow yesterday)
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tbrowder timo: that's kinda the way i see it, too. that's why i'm trying to fill in missing parts of Pod::TreeWalker so i can use plain pod6 easier 10:48
[Coke]: ref yr pod comments on the probs in two other modules: i will add them as test items in Pod::TreeWalker. softmouth's code is too complex for me to grok 11:00
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erry Is Raki comfortable? 11:28
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librasteve erry: yes 11:32
but it's quite big
erry Nice
Raku*
That's what she said 11:33
librasteve comfortable = Larry Wall (the designer) was a linguist ... so it reads like nouns, verbs, adverbs, possessive and so on
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erry Is it 楽 11:39
Nvm that's too complicated a pun
refactus well, it *can* read somewhat like natural language. depends on how you write. imo it's "comfortable" in that it is highly multiparadigm, allows you to code in whatever style suits you best 11:43
erry Nevermind :) 11:45
Speaking of linguists I played around with NLP and stuff recently
Fun stuff
I like certain natural languages myself, but only really messed up ones 11:46
refactus yeah I wasn't responding to your pun, just adding to what librasteve said. I only know one human language, other than a few numbers in spanish and thai, and a touch of german from listening to rammstein and eisbrecher 11:53
plenty of people here speak multiple languages, a large portion of them are from europe. but it's pretty quiet right now 11:55
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[Coke] .seen JRaspass 12:00
tellable6 [Coke], I saw JRaspass 2024-06-07T12:21:15Z in #raku: <JRaspass> np, ta for the reminder
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[Coke] Hallo 12:04
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antononcube @erry “Is Raku confortable” — No, it is not. It was made — like Perl — by a linguist who likes English, hence, thinking that (deep) inconsistencies of a language are fine. 12:55
You can read that Raku is “strangely consistent”, which means it is “inconsistent”. Especially, for people coming to Raku from (currently) popular programming languages. (E.g. Python.) 12:58
[Coke] Perhaps a matter of taste.
antononcube Perhaps, a matter of fact.
[Coke] Is that what your LLM tells you? 13:01
antononcube @Coke 🙂 Interesting statement! See here: raku.land/zef:antononcube . What percentage of these 83 Raku packages are about / for LLM ? 13:02
Until few years ago Raku was pretty useless for Machine Learning and Data Science. Useless, not just "uncomfortable". 13:07
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So, generally speaking, Raku is also "uncomfortable" because of its small ecosystem. (Again, especially, for people coming to Raku from languages like Python.) 13:08
refactus coming from python to many other languages will be uncomfortable. same with coming from many other languages to python. and I really can't agree with holding your *opinions* as fact. stangely consistent != inconsistent, it means the set of consistencies and inconsistencies are a different set of tradeoffs from many other languages. "consistency" isn't a single axis, nor is it the only goal of a 13:23
language
the other issue here is that "confortable" is a pretty subjective concept open to interretation, so the question is rather vague
*comfortable 13:24
*interpretation. guess I can't type today 13:26
antononcube @refactus I agree 100% with your languages and comfortability statements above. But where did I say that I hold my “opinions as facts”? 13:31
refactus "<antononcube> Perhaps, a matter of fact." or perhaps I misunderstood
antononcube It starts with the word "perhaps", right? 13:34
refactus I think perhaps I misunderstood your intention with that one. there's a few different ways it could be read, I probably picked the wrong one 13:35
antononcube Yeah, it is hard from just what it is written to judge the intention/attitude... 13:36
refactus apologies if I misjudged, didn't mean to pick on you 13:37
antononcube It is fine! I am curious about how I would define a fact in terms of this discussion. 13:38
refactus well that's the real problem. what is "comfortable" in a language is vague and subjective 13:39
saying there is a parger ecosystem for python, I can totally accept that as fact :) 13:40
*larger
(not sure but I think I shocked my keyboard with static one too many times, I swear I know how to type)
antononcube The only approach to make "meaningful" arguments on language confortability with some level of objectivity is alluded here: xkcd.com/539/ . 13:41
Not necessary a good one, BTW. But it is easy and cheap. (In both senses, perhaps.) 13:43
refactus ha! reduce it to your own area of study, real fair :)
I guess I would then rephrase what I said earlier to, across the spectrum of programming languages in common use, python is the outlier at least in terms of syntax. of course you might argue that python is more used and we should weight by number of users 13:46
I think we need a highly multidimensional statistical analysis of the available data against all contextually plausible interpretations of "comfortable" to settle this. in a jupyter notebook 13:50
Voldenet erry: raku is more than comfortable, it's a paradise for coders ;) 13:51
antononcube Right! And the average age of those set of coders is 56. 13:52
Voldenet Well, y'know, young people don't there too early nowadays 13:53
don't go, even
erry See, raku (楽) means comfortable in Japanese. And 10000 other things probably
I'm very intelligent
Voldenet the language name `rakudo` literally means paradise
>楽土
erry Yes
Indeed 13:54
antononcube @refactus Yeah, agreed. I made a similar multidimensional statistical study one year ago: rakuforprediction.wordpress.com/20...ges-stats/
erry I see what you did
I should have known that word
antononcube @refactus (And I know what you did there!!)
erry I have to sit the 日本語能力試験ｎ３ in 1 month
D:
At least that's going well
The opposite of my career
Voldenet hehe good luck
erry Too bad that can't make me money 13:55
Sulk.
Voldenet fun things rarely pay
paying things are rarely fun
antononcube 🤔 hmm... right, of course. 13:56
@erry> "I'm very intelligent" -- so, it seems... And you like my LLM packages!
erry Yes please hire me 13:59
Voldenet though I wonder if you should know rakudo, erry, it's not a common word at all
erry I'll even write perl
Going into real desperation now
Voldenet common for it is n1 level, tengoku
erry I know tengoku 14:00
And jigoku
I've seen the latter myself
Voldenet python is jigoku
erry Lol
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antononcube Hmm... I think I know these words too. (I think I recognize their kanji-writing faster.) 14:01
Voldenet as non-native I recognize their romaji the fastest 14:03
antononcube @erry I will keep it mind. 14:07
refactus antononcube: you really did do something rather thorough there, didn't you? I'm not sure precisely what without reading it all, but it sure has enough graphs 14:08
antononcube @refactus The presentation video might "more fun" (≈23 min) : www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCnjMVSfT8w 14:09
@refactus You can see in one of the bubble charts that J and Raku are clear outliers. 🙂 14:11
refactus antononcube: I might look at it later, I don't mind reading. reading is how I've learned much of what I know. my head is just in other directions today. have to take the garbage to the transfer station soon, then untarp some things since the rain is over for now, and clean the carbuerator on the lawn mower because it hasn't ran right since I pulled it out this year 14:14
antononcube Unfortunately, most (popular) graphics systems do not support 3D graphics, so for now Raku does not have 3D graphics production abilities. But with 3D bubble chart, in a dynamic environment (i.e. notebook) the outliers are really interesting to see. (For example, here: community.wolfram.com/groups/-/m/t/3180327 .) 14:15
refactus antononcube: I might look at it later, I don't mind reading. reading is how I've learned much of what I know. my head is just in other directions today. have to take the garbage to the transfer station soon, then untarp some things since the rain is over for now, and clean the carbuerator on the lawn mower because it hasn't ran right since I pulled it out this year 14:16
antononcube Ok, the author of that dataset keeps certain popularity related data and measurements. I.e. that data is suitable for the "statistically significant other" approach to "comfortability." 14:18
refactus antononcube: when I rotate in firefox it just turns the whole chart into one big sphere 14:22
but I really do have to go for a bit, sadly. look forward to chatting with you again
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melezhik. . 15:29
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antononcube weekly: rakuforprediction.wordpress.com/20...ilitation/ 21:29
notable6 antononcube, Noted! (weekly)
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librasteve weekly: rakujourney.wordpress.com/2025/06/...amburgers/ 21:44
notable6 librasteve, Noted! (weekly)
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