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Set by lizmat on 6 September 2022.
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disbot3 <romdav55_30502> Hi where to find binaries of rakudo-star 2025.05 for fedora? 00:17
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disbot3 <romdav55_30502> Raku installs just fine but not zef 00:17
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Voldenet have you tried rakubrew? 00:26
disbot3 <romdav55_30502> no, let me try it 00:27
japhb [Coke]: Wait, how do we allow reuse? I guess I assumed that fez IDs were unique ... 00:52
timo i think he means the part after the "namespace"? 00:54
or perhaps something like, we don't block a name forever after it's been discontinued by someone? 00:55
japhb If we don't block a name forever, we'll have to be extremely careful about the rules for transferring a name. Seems simpler just to block names forever. 00:57
timo i don't think that has happened yet, tbf? but yeah, leaving a name "dangling" is a recipe for trouble 01:00
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timo we don't really have a way to tell github (for example) that some user name should no longer be allowed to be taken by someone else 01:09
do we have something like :auth<fez:foobar>?
japhb zef:, but yeah that 01:10
timo ok, then we'll need to be careful there 01:12
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SmokeMachine librasteve_: I have just pushed a new branch (websocket) where the usage of websockets using htmx is implemented in a automatic way... the websocket is only used to send events from server to tjhe browser... The new example implements 2 new components (a clock that receives updates from the server and a counter button that counts the number of times a button was clicked and updates the value to all connected clients). If you would 01:50
like to take a look: github.com/FCO/Cromponent/blob/web...clock.raku
the clock component: github.com/FCO/Cromponent/blob/web...ck.rakumod 01:51
and the counter component: github.com/FCO/Cromponent/blob/web...er.rakumod
if anyone alse would also like to take a look: ☝️ 01:52
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timo that's pretty cool 03:16
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disbot3 <librasteve> SmokeMachine: that looks amazing ... no time to try for a couple of weeks ;-( ... fwiw I had always imagined a grid of timers that could chain off each other via Supplies [yeah crazy I know - but kind of a web demo of the power of raku concurrency] ... now you have enabled my potty dreams! 05:48
<librasteve> good feedback from all on the idea that we can eject unwanted tripe from our ecosystem - but I dont think we need any new systems (web of trust would be cool - but that sounds like effort to me) ... where do I formally propose this ejection ... as an RSC/Paper GH issue, a raku discussion? if RSC passes this as a resolution at the next meeting, then that would be a quick practical fix, right? 05:56
<librasteve> this "author" (see the link I provided) boats their North Korea affiliations which is known for state sponsored malicious hacking - it's not whether this is true or not, but the reputational damage and real risk of bad stuff been hidden in reams of unreviewed code to our ecosystem that concerns me 05:58
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timo i don't agree with your assessment 06:26
you're refering only to the entry "North Korean Academic Writing: English Language Translations of the Journal of Kim Il Sung University", or is there more? 06:27
that's a brief article that characterizes the english translated scientific journals from north korea that have been made publicly available by the dprk, and it concludes with this sentence: "North Korean science, as illustrated in the structure of the journal articles, 06:32
therefore serves primarily as a mechanism to justify policy, rather than having as
its primary motive a contribution to knowledge itself.
disbot3 <librasteve> my assessment is that it is possible that this orcid profile is an AI fake and that it is certain that it contains the North Korea entry you mention - and my concern is that these are potentially peripheral attacks where soft references to real bad actors may be used to test and confuse our controls
timo "
have you seen the contributions to rakudo issues that were made by the github user slavenskoj? at least one of them looks very LLM-y, but it absolutely stands to reason that a linguist with an interest in less common writing systems would be interested in raku, which claims superior support for unicode and for parsing text with its grammars and such 06:37
i would not be surprised if the user in question didn't even consider that creating these modules quickly with gen AI would be a cause for concern by anybody 06:38
at the very, very least, we should seek a conversation, not just go into our shed and discuss which weapon to pick to kick someone out with 06:41
disbot3 <librasteve> timo: are you happy with the raku ecosystem being diluted/polluted by AI nonsense? 06:42
timo i would like to see some kind of requirement to put a "gen ai disclaimer" in the metadata as well as the readme
disbot3 <librasteve> in which case, soon 99% of modules will be AI gen trash 06:43
timo i haven't looked at the code thoroughly, i can't tell yet if it's actually trash
we can decide we don't want gen ai stuff in the ecosystem. for now, we should choose the "smallest hammer" to deal with the "first offender" because there were not yet any rules in place that they violated, and we as a community should prioritise kindness over knee-jerk reactions 06:48
right now what we are dealing with is a single user who may just be newly enthusiastic about raku and scratching some itches they have using the gen ai workflow they are already familiar with, and decided to share the fun with others. that's at worst a bit misguided, but not malicious 06:51
when there's more than just a single person, we can look at treating this like a spam problem 06:52
don't get me wrong, i hate what gen ai as a whole has done, and is doing
disbot3 <librasteve> i am ok with kind ... but i think this is a test case for how we want to protect and nurture our ecosystem ... so tell me where I can make this request [I submit to the judgement of the RSC in terms of the decision and any sanction] 06:53
timo my first guess is an issue in the problem-solving repo, maybe something like "we need policies and guidelines for dealing with Gen AI Output in the Ecosystem" 06:55
if you want to make the case that a malicious actor could flood the ecosystem with mountains of code that can't be reviewed and can therefore hide malicious code in it, please don't accuse slavenkoj of doing that. i believe you're probably far off the mark with that suspicion 06:58
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disbot3 <librasteve> if you want to make the case that a malicious actor could flood the ecosystem with mountains of code that can't be reviewed and can therefore hide malicious code in it <== this is my concern 07:01
<librasteve> I am stating (not "accusing") that the mass release of new modules from one author has the character that it has mountains of code that are almost certainly ai gen 07:02
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disbot3 <librasteve> thank you for moderating the conversation - I am also fine with not just jumping on someone who is having fun with tech 07:06
Geth ¦ problem-solving: librasteve assigned to codesections Issue We need policies and guidelines for dealing with Gen AI Output in the Ecosystem github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/479 07:15
disbot3 <librasteve> timo: thank you for your cool assessment and sensible advice 07:17
timo oh, i somehow totally forgot already how annoyed i was at the german translation module 07:19
i blame the fact that i'm literally sick and also literally tired
disbot3 <librasteve> artificial stupidity is hard to come to terms with 07:20
<librasteve> (for me, at least) 07:21
timo my problem with the translation module was that the very first thing shown is that "say" was translated as "sagen" which is very much like having "saying" instead of "say"
who wants to create Infinitive Raku where all verbs are in the infinitive form instead of, for example, imperative
say -> saying, print -> printing, map -> mapping, open -> opening
plus that the readme of the organisations these modules are in claims that all modules have all these features, and then at the very least the german translation says "oh this is not possible by the way because of rakudo issue XYZ" 07:22
disbot3 <librasteve> lol - I have been trying to learn german imperfect (Sie slaf wieder (?)) 07:24
timo "sie schlief wieder"? 07:26
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disbot3 <librasteve> yeah - accuracy is not my forte 07:47
timo maybe that, or maybe german itself is just rubbish in general
disbot3 <librasteve> its hard if you didn't get it as a child 07:49
timo even then it's still hard occasionally 07:52
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Geth ¦ problem-solving: lizmat unassigned from codesections Issue We need policies and guidelines for dealing with Gen AI Output in the Ecosystem github.com/Raku/problem-solving/issues/479 09:18
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SmokeMachine The Portuguese module has the same problem… it translates say to `dizer` (infinitive) instead of `diga` (imperative) 11:44
lizmat SmokeMachine: please PR any fixes:-) 11:45
ah, this is about the AI one, not raku.land/zef:l10n/L10N::PT ? 11:46
glad to see that dist got "diga" right at least :)
SmokeMachine Yes… the one I originally wrote is “correct” (raku.land/zef:l10n/L10N::PT) 11:47
lizmat SmokeMachine: what do you think would be a cool name for a Portuguese executable ?
I don't like "porku" much :-) 11:48
SmokeMachine Rakugues? I had a perltugues module (metacpan.org/pod/perltugues) 11:49
Portuguese => português 11:50
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SmokeMachine So, maybe rakuguês? 11:50
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lizmat I was more thinking along the lines of "kaas" for the Dutch localization (as in "cheese"), and "wurst" for the German localization 11:56
as -Ofun alternatives to the uncool "nedku" and "deuku"
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sjn 13:56 < lizmat> as -Ofun alternatives to the uncool "nedku" and "deuku" 11:58
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lizmat ah, ok... my client crashed, and the logger hadn't seen that either 11:59
which, come to think of it, unsurprising as the logger runs here as well
sjn hm. /me is pasting random stuff, apparently 12:00
apologies
lizmat no worries: most of the stuff you pass around is most definitely not random!
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SmokeMachine lizmat: For Brazil, maybe `churras`? Short for churrasco that mean bbq (Brazilians loves their bbq)… or maybe `caramelo` that reminds the “vira-lata caramelo” (dog with no pedigree coloured like caramel) that is on of Brazil’s symbols 12:03
lizmat I think I prefer the "food" theme, so "churras" would be on my list 12:04
BTW, shouldn't that be a separate localization? PT-BR ?
or is the current PT basically already Brazilian ? :-) 12:05
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SmokeMachine In Brazil we named portugal as “Brazilian Guiana” (that’s just a joke… a meme that is very big on Brazilian internet…) 12:06
But European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese have a lot of differences… but I don’t think those differences would affect the language translationzzz 12:08
lizmat ok, but "churras" would be seen as typically Brazilian in Portugal, right ?
but maybe "denata" would be more Portugal Portuguese ? 12:09
from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastel_de_nata ? 12:10
disbot3 <nurturethevibe> If I call srand, do a bunch of random ops, then call srand again with the same seed, should the sequence reset?
lizmat ideally, yes. However github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5074
SmokeMachine Yes, totally… and I think denata would be perfect for the European version 12:11
disbot3 <nurturethevibe> Hm, is there a way to deterministically get the desired behavior that doesn't involve writing a custom random function? 😄 12:12
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disbot3 <nurturethevibe> I tried forking to get a clean sequence but that gave me a different sequence too. 12:13
lizmat raku.land/zef:raku-community-modul...th::Random perhaps ?
or more generally raku.land/?q=Math%3A%3ARandom 12:14
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disbot3 <nurturethevibe> paste2.org/ZFLeGM2H My "working" solution. 12:23
<nurturethevibe> I may try Math::Random again later, the documented way to instantiate gives me an error about wrong number of positionals, I looked at the code and the constructor expects a seed. 12:25
<nurturethevibe> But when I tried passing the seed it just repeated the error so... idk I'm a noob 😄
<nurturethevibe> Just trying to implement 2d, 3d and maybe 4d simplex noise for now. Will push to zef if it works. 12:27
lizmat nurturethevibe sadly the captcha doesn't allow me in: I guess I *am* a robot then :-( 12:31
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[Coke] We allow reuse of "name" in auth. Like JSON::Class 12:50
sorry, 'auth' confusing there. we can specify name/auth/api/ver - name can be used by multiple auths with no conflict 12:54
lizmat I guess we could adapt the "use" logic to fail if there's no specific auth specified, and more than one distribution with different auth is installed ? 12:55
afk for a few hours&
[Coke] Maybe at least emit a warning. 12:59
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disbot3 <nurturethevibe> Updated to use Math::Random::MT. Got 2d noise working, now 3d 13:43
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disbot3 <nurturethevibe> lizmat: lol I made 2 forks and compared the output of both forks 😄 13:45
<nurturethevibe> But that's gone now
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[Coke] patrickb: You mentioned a module named "Email" but that doesn't exist (for essentials) 14:06
did I miscapture that output?
I have Email::MIME also, which is good 14:10
irclogs.raku.org/search.html?query...2025-06-26 - nope, that's what it was. 14:11
patrickb Coke: That's a false positive. Please ignore. 14:15
[Coke] Cool.
cleaning up all the names (the ones from r* were all written with '-' instead of '::') 14:16
also removed a bunch from R*.
(er, from our copy of that list, R* is unchanged)
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[Coke] ok, github.com/Raku/Blin/wiki/Essential-Modules is cleaned up based on all the submissions 14:29
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disbot3 <nurturethevibe> How long does it take for a new dist to appear on raku.land usually? 15:54
<apogee> github.com/m-doughty/Noise-Simplex If anyone wants to review or try it, I pushed to zef but it probably hasn't indexed yet. First serious bit of code in Raku. 15:57
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[Coke] apogee, all tests pass here on mac 16:01
disbot3 <apogee> Thanks! I'm on mac too 😄
[Coke] it is unclear what the example file is doing. had to read that it was generating img/2d.png in sourc... and that file is already checked in? 16:03
maybe add a 'note' in the examples about what the output file is? 16:04
oh that's painfully blurry. :)
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[Coke] all the 3d-z* seem visually... identical? very similar? 16:05
disbot3 <apogee> Yeah it's simplex noise, if it wasn't blurry you'd have an issue 😄
[Coke] nifty. were you the one that asked earlier this week if we already a module for this?
disbot3 <apogee> Yes
<apogee> The 3Ds are different but its hard to tell from the images, if you open the animated 3d.png, you can see it there. 16:06
<apogee> Its a very smooth noise algorithm, used for generating terrain in games and stuff like that. 16:07
[Coke] cool. 16:08
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lizmat apogee interested in some code review? 16:13
disbot3 <apogee> Yes please! 16:17
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lizmat apogee some general remarks: we usually have "main" as the default branch, instead of "master" 16:26
on github, the about says "Noise::Simples: " apart from the misspelling, I would just remove that part: it's clear from the name of the repo 16:27
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lizmat suggest adding "raku.land/zef:apogee/Noise::Simplex" as the URL in the about of the repo 16:27
wrt documentation: nowadays I would separate the rakudoc in a separate doc/Noise-Simplex.rakudoc file 16:29
and have App::Mi6 generate the README from it for me 16:30
disbot3 <apogee> Updated the about. And thanks, I was wondering what people use to generate README from pod these days.
lizmat App::Mi6 is essential for me, for the about 400 modules I basically do maintenance of 16:31
I would make build-permutation-table a sub, and call it in: has @!perm = build-permutation-table 16:33
that an attribute is private, doesn't mean you cannot specify a "default" value for it
m: class A { has $!a = 42; method b() { $!a } }; say A.new.b
camelia 42
lizmat so you can get rid of the BUILD method 16:34
apogee would you use the same instance of Sound::Simplex to create 2d *and* 3d noise ? 16:36
generally? 16:37
disbot3 <apogee> You could yes, for multi-pass things, but it's not common.
lizmat it feels like Sound::Simplex could be a base class, with Sound::Simplex::2D and Sound::Simplex::3D as subclasses
with potentially more subclasses in the future?
disbot3 <apogee> Probably yes. 4D does exist but the algo is huge. 16:38
<apogee> And honestly 3D is already pretty slow.
lizmat well, one could work on that :-)
disbot3 <apogee> That's something I want to work on yes, but it's probably XS-ish (if Raku has XS). 16:39
<apogee> To get an actual fast implementation.
lizmat apogee looking at my @perm-grad2x / my @perm-grad2y: those are supposed to be constants, right ?
disbot3 <apogee> Even in C a large 3D noise map takes a while. They aren't constants if I add seed changing, they are if I don't 😛
lizmat ok, fair enough 16:40
disbot3 <apogee> They're not compile time constants though, because they depend on the seed.
lizmat right 16:41
github.com/m-doughty/Noise-Simplex...#L179-L183
disbot3 <apogee> They're just precalculating maps over the permutation table for the different axes.
lizmat I think they can be simplified to:
@!perm-grad3z ?? @!perm-grad3z !! (@!perm-grad3z = @!perm.map( -> $v { @grad3[ ($v % 12) * 3 + 2 ] })) 16:42
same for all similar methods
disbot3 <apogee> Thanks, is that some kind of ternary syntax? I am very new at Raku. 16:43
lizmat yeah, looks in Perl it would be ? : in Raku it's ?? !!
because the colon was needed for many other functions :-)
disbot3 <apogee> Fair. 16:44
lizmat an empty array boolifies to False
disbot3 <apogee> I'll try those changes. The current one is a pain to read.
lizmat also: I assume $n0, $n1, $n2, $n3 will be integers, will they fit in 64 bits? If so, you can make them native ints 16:48
same for all of the other values that are ints and will fit in 64 bits
also: github.com/m-doughty/Noise-Simplex...#L270-L286 16:49
feels to me that could be a single cascaded ternary:
($i1,$j1,$k1, $i2,$j2,$k2) = $x >= $y0 ?? $y0 >= $z0 ?? (1,0,0, 1,1,0) ?? .... 16:50
disbot3 <apogee> Yeah 100% could, I couldnt work out the ternary syntax 😄
lizmat same as in Perl, but s/?/??/ and s/:/!!/ :-) 16:51
disbot3 <apogee> n0..n3 are doubles. 16:52
lizmat that's 64 bit, right? or 128? 16:53
disbot3 <apogee> 64
lizmat than a native "num" will suffce
*suffice
line 359 can be removed: .append returns the invocant 16:54
disbot3 <apogee> What's the diff between making build-permutation-table a method or a sub? Can subs belong to classes? 16:56
lizmat it would make it harder to use in the initialization of the attribute 16:57
yes, subs can belong to classes, but are basically just named blocks of code in there 16:58
well, I usually use "my" on the subs in the class, to make them truly local 17:00
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disbot3 <apogee> How do you run all the tests at once usually? 17:09
lizmat zef test . is the canonical way I guess 17:10
I use a custom script that works better in CI
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disbot3 <apogee> Do you use neovim? I find it gets pretty slow on big files? 17:28
<apogee> Even on an M4 Max
<apogee> (Probably something Raku Navigator related) 17:29
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timo huh. something is definitely strange about srand. it gives a different sequence once, then a different sequence every time thereafter 19:12
and the first sequence is different every time i run the program 19:13
so, uhhhh, just call srand with the same seed twice at the beginning as a workaround until we figure outwhat's wrong 19:14
lizmat timo: you're aware of github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/5074 ? 19:16
timo ah i wasn't 19:17
i do think we should have one per-thread random state for use in user-facing random ops like pick and roll that is separate from anything the runtime does internally 19:21
lizmat aren't we allowed to switch threads under something that's awaiting in 6.d ? 19:27
and wouldn't that affect this ?
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timo right, it would probably want to go along with a mechanism to store and activate a seed so we can do that when we await and resume. or we always work with a dynamic variable which may be slow if we're unlucky 19:47
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lizmat re use of dynamic variables; I was thinking in RakuAST that any scope that uses a dynamic variable, would get that dynamic variable added to its lexical scope automatically 19:54
and then potentially get lowered, would that make sense ?
timo not sure how you mean that. added to its lexical scope? 19:55
lizmat yes?
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timo what do we put in it? you mean like a cache? 20:04
lizmat yes, so it would always be a lexical lookup instead of a dynamic lookup (except the first time?) 20:09
and if the dynvar is a container, bind to the container 20:10
but only if the dynvar is mentioned in that scope of course 20:11
timo hm, we do already have the dynamic var lookup cache, i wonder how much better we can do than that
lizmat ah, we do?
where does that live ? 20:12
at the VM level ?
japhb Re: srand: Related to what lizmat said, I don't think an srand() routine affecting process global state even has reasonable affordance anymore now that we are thoroughly in the concurrent world. The only two reasons I can think of right now for having srand() at all are: 1. To be able to supply a "stronger" random seed than the rand algorithm uses natively, which perhaps made sense back in the libc days, but 20:13
not for a modern implementation, and 2. To force a known sequence, which in our current implementation doesn't actually work (and as per #5074 naturally would not)
So I think we can dump reason #1 on the floor, which means if we want to support reason #2, we need an impl change
Personally I think we should either drop srand() or make something like random sequence state dynvars that make it work correctly. 20:15
timo i'm assuming - without evidence - that dynvars are most expensive when we have lots of calls where it's looked up exactly once. like when we do a bunch of "say" for example
yeah it's in moarvm 20:16
japhb (Personally-personally, I'd choose the latter, because I have use cases for that, but I just think the current state makes no sense)
lizmat m: sub DYNAMIC($a) { dd $a }; $*FOO for ^10
camelia "\$*FOO"
"\$*FOO"
"\$*FOO"
"\$*FOO"
"\$*FOO"
"\$*FOO"
"\$*FOO"
"\$*FOO"
"\$*FOO"
"\$*FOO"
lizmat timo: looks like *that* is not getting cached ^^ 20:17
m: sub DYNAMIC($a) { dd $a }; $*OUT for ^10 # nor is this
camelia "\$*OUT"
"\$*OUT"
"\$*OUT"
"\$*OUT"
"\$*OUT"
"\$*OUT"
"\$*OUT"
"\$*OUT"
"\$*OUT"
"\$*OUT"
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timo ah, there was a reason why we have to call DYNAMIC? 20:18
lizmat yeah... because the PROCESS:: ones are not in lexdyn scope
which are basically all core ones
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timo so we actually never directly generate getlexdyn ops? 20:20
lizmat hmmm.. come to think of it: it would probably make sense to at least have $*OUT and $*ERR as lexicals in every compunit
not in Rakudo afaik
timo why weren't we using the fallback resolver for that purpose? 20:21
the one that was recently removed because it was unused
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lizmat possibly ? I didn't grok what that was doing and wasn't interested as it was being removed :) 20:21
timo i think it allowed us to call a registered dispatcher when a lookup of a variable didn't find anything 20:22
lizmat aah... I see now there is a sub DYNAMIC-FALLBACK TIL 20:23
suffers from the same overhea, it seems 20:24
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lizmat ah, it basically doesn't do the initial getlexdyn that DYNAMIC does 20:26
so apparently the getlexdyn is codegenned into the QAST in RakuAST
cool 20:33
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