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simon_sibl me again xD glot.io/snippets/hcztultbr2 not sure why the make of the <call> returns Nil, but if I print instead of make it shows the right answer (on line 21 it does the make, on line 24 it gets a Nil but shouldnt) 04:19
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Geth ¦ raku.org: librasteve self-assigned Add nx-adm rakudo-packages to Linux Install github.com/Raku/raku.org/issues/273 10:15
tbrowder hi, is there a visual editor or viewer usable with Red? 13:23
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antononcube @tbrowder_04810 It depends how big is your "Red" database I assume. 14:24
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tbrowder not big. can dbeaver.io have access to the underlying tables? 14:42
i really like the idea of using Red for remote access and something like dbeaver for local viewing. 14:44
SmokeMachine tbrowder: what do you mean? 14:46
antononcube Hmm... can you quantify "not big"? As number of characters or words. 15:00
ugexe a database ui / explorer is a totally separate thing from an orm 15:01
antononcube Right. But a relatively ORM Raku code can be translated by LLMs into SQL. (Or JSON, or whatever.) 15:02
ugexe they are specifically asking about dbeaver.io 15:03
its just a database front end
so for the question of if someone can use dbeaver.io, the answer is "does dbeaver.io support your database?", and by database that means mysql, postgres, etc not an ORM 15:04
tbrowder < 500 recs in a table 15:05
antononcube @ugexe Agreed.
@tbrowder_04810 How big is the .raku code/text of your "Red" object(s). 15:06
tbrowder that's my question then: does Red use a compatible sql format as a backend data store 15:07
ugexe it wouldnt be able to use whatever database if it didnt
the whole point of an ORM is to turn code into compatible sql formats 15:08
well, one of the main points of an ORM anyways
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ugexe like if Red is storing data in a postgres database, how could it *not* be using a postgres compatible sql format 15:09
librasteve I use SQLite with Red and I would say that Red has a pretty straightforward mapping of model (ie a special raku class) to table … haven’t tried beaver.io but I guess it or similar can work with SQLite
tbrowder so it should be viewable. antononcube: i haven't created the db yet, just asking. Red docs have improved, so i'm investigating using it
librasteve I would be fine using for view only … maybe a bit trickier for inserts and so on depending how much of Reds features you use (foreign keys, etc) 15:10
ugexe what? that makes no sense 15:11
foreign keys are a database feature, not a Red feature
librasteve my point is that stuff like foreign keys requires insertions to be done a specific way 15:12
ugexe but you are implying there is something specific about Red here and there isn't. that is going to confuse people
pretty much any database frontend that claims to work with a given database should work fine, even if there are billions of rows 15:14
librasteve don’t mean to imply that, what I mean is Red uses standard SQL
but let’s say you define a column as a Red is relationship, then that’s going to add something to the SQL INSERT to maintain the relationship… 15:16
antononcube @librasteve Trying to highlight Raku code in "monad laws" table (in Jupyter):
cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/633...1c74c&
librasteve so that’s why I say use the GUI viewer read only
ugexe i mean that sounds like encouraging the user to not understand what is going on. people shouldnt be using an orm to avoid understanding sql 15:18
librasteve oh, I had in mind that Tom wants to use Red, but he would like to see what it is doing in the database 15:20
ugexe i just don't get why the answer to "can dbeaver.io have access to the underlying tables?" wasn't just "yes" 15:22
Red and the caveats are effectively just red herrings in the context of that question
librasteve well, broadly the answer is yes, but if you use Red is relationship and then use your gui to insert into one table and not the other (ie you do not care about the SQL) then it will break at the ORM level, right? 15:26
probably I am not expressing myself very well, sorry
ugexe database relationships are not ORM level 15:27
they are literally part of the database itself
SmokeMachine Please, correct me if I’m mistaken, but is this confusion related to Red, by default on the examples, use a in memory SQLite and because of that the user “do not have access to the db outside Red’?
librasteve ugexe: i agree with you, you are 100% right 15:29
:-) 15:30
SmokeMachine librasteve no, that will break on db level… red do not do anything to validate inserts or foreign key… all red do is create sql… everything data related is from db 15:33
If you have a table with a fk pointing to another table’s column and tou try to insert a record where that column do not exist on the pointed table, it will be the db that will return an error, not the ORM nor the ui db client.. that the DB itself… 15:36
librasteve my advice is use dbeaver.io read only, why would that break?
SmokeMachine But why would they be using it read only? 15:37
librasteve so that you can see what Red has written in your tables
that is my guess at the use case, maybe Tom can confirm
ugexe they can do that even if they modify data in the ui 15:38
SmokeMachine But why shouldn’t he also be able to insert data using dbeaver?
If they try to insert a record referencing to a column that’s a fk to a other table’s column where that value does not exist, the db will say: it’s not possible, that value does not exist on that other table’s column. And that’s it… 15:40
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librasteve good, we are all 100% in agreement … you can do INSERTS via the dbeaver.io, but you need to respect the fks 16:25
ugexe you have to respect the fks regardless 16:26
so it doesn't make sense to mention it at all. it makes it sound like there is some drawback here or something. 16:27
it'd be like saying you can use dbeaver.io to SELECT, but if you order by remember to know where NULLs will be sorted to
librasteve yeah, sorry I see now that what I said is superfluous… thanks for your patience 16:32
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