🦋 Welcome to Raku! raku.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/raku
Set by ChanServ on 14 October 2019.
Ven_de_Thiel yeah, a few. 00:01
I just made some things be IIFEs for ease of compilation at first
still have no idea how do `use` 00:03
jnthn Yeah, that'll be fun... 00:13
Probably we'll need to somehow mimic the template repository setup to avoid dupe-copying them.
Ven_de_Thiel it generates *almost-correct* JS :P 00:16
A lot of things are made much more "fun" by JS not allowing newlines in strings, but I'm considering using `` syntax instead -- so long we don't care too much about which JS version 00:17
jnthn hm, we can't just escape the newlines to \n? 00:20
Ven_de_Thiel that's what I'm doing, but I'm missing some place
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Ven_de_Thiel oh, I forgot to use `:g` -.- 00:21
> Code is syntactically valid. 00:25
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Ven_de_Thiel ok, I can run topic-1 without any issues 00:27
aw, too bad we don't have Inline::JS :P 00:32
maybe I should build rakudojs
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discord6 <cyanmide> AlexDaniel: Thank you! I think I'll need the opposite. Calling into functions in a Raku class from a Java class 01:05
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Email::MIME (2.0.1) by 03RBT 05:33
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alialiali anybody has a recent benchmark compering raku/rakudo with other popular scripting languages in terms of performance? 06:50
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alialiali how can I make perl6 save the results back in the same file? something like this: perl6 --output=test -ne '$_ ~= "\n"' test 07:28
AlexDaniel alialiali: I don't know. I wonder if we can somehow participate in benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.n...index.html 07:32
they may not add raku unless it becomes very popular, but it'd still be nice to have our versions of the programs they have 07:33
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Nokko o/ 07:34
AlexDaniel alialiali: as for in-place editing, there is no such flag yet, so you'd need to do it yourself somehow (e.g. write to a temp file and then move it)
Nokko: \o 07:35
Nokko raku time, first install... what to build, what to build.
AlexDaniel Nokko: maybe try prebuilt packages? :) github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg 07:38
or see what your distro has to offer
alialiali how can I make perl6 save the results back in the same file? (like sed -i or perl -i) something like this: perl6 --output=test -ne '$_ ~= "\n"' test 07:40
Nokko AlexDaniel: My distro's got rakudo-star in Homebrew ( ՞ਊ՞) 07:49
AlexDaniel alialiali: as I said, there's no -i yet, so you'll have to write to a temp file first 07:50
alialiali Thanks, and sorry, didn't see that message 07:51
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! String::Fields (0.0.3) by 03ELIZABETH 12:28
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! String::Fields (0.0.4) by 03ELIZABETH 12:47
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mdmkolbe What is the Raku equivalent of Java's `finally` clause? 15:31
lizmat LEAVE 15:37
mdmkolbe Thanks!
lizmat m: LEAVE say "goodbye" 15:38
camelia goodbye
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dakkar hello 16:40
fun bug:
p6: sub thing { return 5 }; sub foo { do { LEAVE thing; return 1 } }; say foo
camelia 5
dakkar I'm pretty sure that should say 1 16:41
mainly because:
p6: sub thing { return 5 }; sub foo { LEAVE thing; return 1 }; say foo
camelia 1
dakkar LEAVE interacts weirdly with non-Sub blocks?
tyil DrForr: is there any method whatsoever for those willing to help out at FOSDEM now, or is everyone being forced to use Slack? 16:42
any communication method*
since I don't see any emails anymore, and I haven't heard of anything thus far 16:43
and, to be honest, requiring proprietary software in order to volunteer for a free software project attending a free software event is very weird (to keep it civil) 16:45
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Voldenet uh 16:56
p6: sub thing { return 5 }; sub foo { do { LEAVE thing; 1 } }; say foo
camelia 1
wildtrees what does LEAVE do? 16:57
Voldenet gets invoked before leaving the block 16:58
dakkar a LEAVE block is run when the execution leaves the surronding block
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dakkar Voldenet: wow, another wrinkle! I'm now thinking that control exceptions are mixed up in that (IIRC, `return` generates a sort-of exception) 16:59
wildtrees p6: sub thing { say 5 } ; sub foo {do {LEAVE thing ; say 1}} ; foo
camelia 1
dakkar I've added these examples to github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/2380 which seems related 17:00
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Auth::SASL (0.1.0) by 03HANENKAMP 17:32
Grinnz tyil: if it helps, slack can be used from the browser without any software, and slack can be used via paid irccloud subscription or github.com/wee-slack/wee-slack as well 17:41
(the slack client is pretty bad so i use irccloud for it 17:42
tyil that doesn't make Slack itself any less bad
Grinnz i agree, but communities are where they are 17:43
tyil especially considering everyone is already using a free form of communication through email
and communities doing harmful things that stop volunteers ought to rethink decisions
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DrForr tyil: Re: Slack - It was strictly how Stuart preferred to communicate - I put out an email call for people that had expressed their willingness to do something and got barely any response 18:19
sjn tyil: the TPF slack seems to have been around for a while, but only recently (last half year) been made use of publicly 18:20
rypervenche Perhaps an open source alternative like Zulip would work?
tyil rypervenche: anything that doesn't make me give up all semblance of privacy and security for literally no feasible gain would work 18:21
sjn personally, I wish TPF would have picked another platform, but as things are now, it's what they have.
tyil and they can change it whenever they like as well, sjn 18:22
sjn tyil: and yes there is a LOT of things that should and needs to improve with TPF
tyil and it's still beyond me how Slack can be chosen as a communication platform for FOSDEM
I wish I could help out to improve whatever I can 18:23
sjn so in some ways I really appreciate that we have an opportunity to set up a Raku Foundation (like ash and others have mentioned). It would be awesome to be able to shed a lot of the baggage that TPF is bringing along. 18:24
tyil: it's TPF's slack, and since TPF decided to take over the Raku stand from Andrew and make it into a Perl & Raku stand, they also decided to use their existing chat infrastructure 18:25
I don't think it's more complicated than "this is what we have right now"
tadzik fwiw, Slack can be easily bridged to Matrix and then bridged to anything else, enabling slack people to talk with IRC people on the same channel
tyil that doesn't make it any more baffling to see a a group pushing for proprietary software to attend a free software event
sjn and having a comms discussion just a few weeks before fosdem seems a bit misplaced.... 18:26
tyil tadzik: then you're still forcing everyone to use yet another thing, just so it can be bridged to a bad solution
DrForr tyil - I understand. We're only (so far) using it for the organizers (like myself) and a few people that want to listen to decisions being made. I did *NOT* make this choice. I would *PREFER* not to use Slack. But the people that took over the Raku stand from Andrew chose to start using Slack. It's not meant as any sort of snub towards free software, although I can see how it seems that way.
tyil sjn: nobody replied before, it's not just now that I raise an issue on it
tadzik tyil: I don't disagree :) Just proposing a patch for a horrible decision
tyil I don't think giving an inch is going to solve the underlying problem
sjn tyil: yeah, there's only a few tuits going around too
tyil from my point of view, it's hypocritical to push for proprietary things to even volunteer at a free software event 18:27
sjn: as I said, I can't help without comprimising on the very morals that make me interested to go to fosdem to begin with 18:28
tadzik I imagine the underlying problem is likely "I'm not a technical person and/or I don't understand the problem with it"
tyil so in this sense, they're keeping tuits out
tadzik but also possibly "there's a limited number of hills I want to die on and that's why I also use a Mac"
sjn tyil: I agree with your point to a certain degree. Weighing against it, is also the consideration for building a community where others already are (and with "others" I mean "people outside our community which we would like to join ours")
tyil tadzik: plenty of people online are willing to teach to those willing to listen
tadzik tyil: sure. But I don't think "not giving an inch" is the best way to teach
tyil sjn: slack doens't apply to that, though
every slack "server" is yet another gated community 18:29
sjn lots of businesses use slack
tyil yes
and those are all not connected to any other slack "server"
the "community effect" is not a thing for Slack
it's designed to be that way
sjn tyil: but when you have one slack login, it's trivial to switch to another server without having to create another login
so there's that
tyil it's more trivial to just hit the "reply" button in my mail client 18:30
sjn but sure, I don't disagree :)
tyil it's more trivial to /join another channel on freenode
so again, Slack is not a winner in this aspect here either
sjn What does an ideal Open Source communications stack look like in 2020? That's an interesting question worth exploring a little 18:31
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tadzik mozilla went for matrix recently, fortunately 18:31
(they were considering discord :o)
tyil "ideal" depends on what kind of communication you want, there's no golden bullet to solve all problems
Grinnz IRC is still a contender, tbh 18:32
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Grinnz especially with things like irccloud around 18:32
sjn protocol integration, service automation, A/V support, streaming, chat, bots support, easy access, logging, content searchability, file sharing....
tyil interesting reading: davelane.nz/why-slack-better-and-w...dnt-use-it
sjn tyil: yes, today there are no golden (actually, silver) bullets
tyil sjn: integration, automation, chat, bots, access, logging, searchability, all irc 18:33
tadzik erm, no
tyil email does those too
tadzik IRC plus 10 different services you may have set up around it doesn't exactly qualify as "IRC ticks these boxes" imho
sjn tyil: making a list of features, listing them by desirability and then comparing alternatives? sounds like a blog post :)
Grinnz IRC only solves these problems due to the ecosystem 18:34
tyil tadzik: you think slack is a single threaded application?
tadzik tyil: I don't know, I never used slack
tyil with no external dependencies, or 3rd party services making all those "features" possible
Grinnz ... it is
tadzik oh come on now
yes, I'm pretty sure slack has logs without you needing to set up a logger bot and a logs website 18:35
Grinnz those features are built into the slack web application
sjn open protocols make a certain difference in that regard :)
Grinnz and i can use most of them through their api in irccloud as well
tyil tadzik: so has literally every irc client Ive ever seen
tadzik *client*, yes
tyil and for irc, you can use things like irccloud if you don't want to set anything up 18:36
yes, a client
tadzik and yet the moment you disconnect your client, you lose all the logs. That's why we had irclog.perlgeek.de all this time
(all the logs that happen while you're gone)
same for search
tyil I'm never gone, I use a bouncer
DrForr tyil - like I said, you're more than welcome to participate over email if Slack doesn't meet your needs. I'm not going to be able to convince 30+ people (some rather nontechnical) to switch to IRC.
tadzik the lack of persistent presence is arguably the most annoying "features" of IRC in this day and age
Grinnz false - freenode disconnects you sometimes
tyil DrForr: I'm suggesting email
tadzik and the fact that we all use bouncers is obvious speaks volumes about that 18:37
tyil DrForr: you're going to have a very hard time convincing me they dont know how email works, seeing as they needed to use it to join slack through invite to begin with
tadzik: yes, and there are services available like irccloud if you dont want to manage that yourself
Grinnz email is a very different form of communication
tyil but at least I have the freedom to do it the way suits *me* best
tadzik ircclou looks proprietary 18:38
tyil Slack only does their best to close things off after they lured in the simple people
tadzik: yes, but irc isn't
clearly, there are people that give nothing about freedom, and they can use irccloud if they think it's worth it 18:39
sjn tyil: there's also another aspect we should be honest about... are opnions like your and mine really the yardstick we should use to measure if a chat service is "good enough"?
tadzik I'd rather use something open and competent than picking a legacy technology that either requires manual tinkering to make it not suck or pay a 3rdparty to manage it for you
tyil and people that do care about it, like most people attending fosdem, can use free software only
sjn I say maybe not
tyil tadzik: "legacy" is only a bad word if you don't understand its merits
Perl has a lot of "legacy", for instance
tadzik tyil: I really don't think merits outweight the downsides in this case
tyil so have IRC and email, but they're still around, unlike all the alternatives that sprout up every couple years 18:40
sjn: perhaps not, but I still stand by forcing volunteers into hostile software for a free and open source event is disgusting
I'm not saying irc is the solution, I'm saying Slack is objectively a seriously bad option 18:41
and we can do better, I would hope
I'm gonna finish my dinner :) 18:42
tadzik bon apetit :)
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sjn I really don't mind if someone takes that fight (or if they are a little more tactful, writes that blogpost) 18:47
In fact, I would love it if someone did that. I'm happy to adapt to whatever system where people choose to gather 18:48
tyil sjn: davelane.nz/why-slack-better-and-w...dnt-use-it && davelane.nz/arresting-slide-open-fauxpen 18:49
sjn If noone chooses to pick up that gauntlet, I don't mind using less ideal solutions in the meantime. For me it's more important to reach the right people than to use the right softwaree 18:50
tyil sadly, by using the wrong software, you're telling the right people to get lost
sjn that isn't always true
it may be true *sometimes*, but not always 18:51
tyil I never said always
its about this case
sjn as you wrote it, you kinda implied it ;-) 18:52
but never mind that
tyil not really
sjn seriously, are there any good guidelines what FOSS communication stacks are availabout out there? 18:53
tadzik unless you find the silver bullet, some of the right people will always be alienated by your choice of software though. Again, I do agree that Slack is an atrocious choice. But if your conversation revolves around non-techies and business people, slack may just be the easiest way for them
tyil I'd say you, as the techie, should then teach them why it's shit, instead of letting them harm themselves and others because its "easy" 18:54
tadzik I'd do that, and i push for that in the communities I'm involved in
(or leave)
tyil I wouldn't let my mom sign up for newsletters all the time if I can just tell her its not a great choice 18:55
since I understand, and she doesn't, it's good morals to teach her
instead of keeping this secret information to myself and just think "welp, she's just too dumb to understand"
sjn: i don't know, I just know of some alternatives that I would have no objection to use, and out of those, strongly prefer email since it's the one thing that literally *everyone* knows and has already 18:56
sjn tyil: that's fair, but it also requires tuits to teach (and those are also in high demand), so if you want to scale up, it you might be better off using tech that either is easy to use (no need to spend teaching tuits) or make the community so attractive that people are willing to spend their tuits anyway 18:57
tyil I'm already doing the latter right now 18:58
and again, literally everyone already knows how to send an email
sjn mm, I hope everyone here tries the latter :)
tyil and has one (or several) accounts to pick from
sjn tyil: I know of people who really loathe email
so Problem Not Solved for Everybody 18:59
tyil there's people loathing anything if you search hard enough, but something you can do with email that you can't with slack: just make your own client, or even server, and adapt it to *your* needs without begging a 3rd party for permision not to ban you forever
*and* keeping all your stuff to boot 19:00
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tyil but perhaps email is not the best solution, which is why it should be discussed 19:00
Grinnz i will just say this: you are not wrong in all of this, but presenting the case without any regard for what they gain by using slack (and they do) and with such vitriol is not going to get you anywhere
tyil it's clear to anyone that has any sense of morality that forcing proprietary solutions unto volunteers for free software and communities is unacceptable 19:01
sjn btw, who pays to keep the service up and running?
tyil Grinnz: all the gains are illusions, so yes, I am quite aggressive in this stance
Grinnz they are not.
and that is the problem here
tyil no, the problem here is forcing volunteers to proprietary tools for a free community attending a free event 19:02
Grinnz everything is a trade off. there are real consequences for all choices
tyil there's plenty of alternatives, even slack-like solutions if you honestly believe people can't do without a shiny web ui that hogs memory like no tomorrow
indeed there are, and the consequence now is that volunteers are told "too bad, we don't care about you" 19:03
I don't think that's something that deserves much praise
sjn tyil: not everyone in the community are as opinionated as we who take part in this conversation. some people just want to be able to do their task with as little fuss as possible 19:04
DrForr And some of us are:
tyil sjn: I am part of those same people, that's why I like raku ;)
slack, however, does not do that in any way or sense
so I have to be non-lazy and call it out, to try and improve things
Grinnz until you acknowledge how any of your suggestions will also disimprove things, and take a breath before you accuse people of choosing slack out of lack of morality, you are mostly accomplishing aggravating people 19:06
DrForr tyil: Your opinion is definitely noted and I'll pass along your comments for the next time we need to do a volunteer callout. I will point out that I used email to ask for times and slots and I didn't een get a response on email.
tyil perhaps you should try to read the links I posted
I'm pretty sure I responded with my times just fine 19:07
DrForr I'm sure there are many reasons not to use Slack. Not the least is that I'm not a fan myself.
tyil the plans given over email by stuart also wildly differed from the one you suddenly sent out 19:08
you're keeping out people who are literally the intended target for the event, and discussing things on a platform that has been pointed out to be in stark opposition of the events goals 19:09
sjn tyil: today's chat was meant as a syncronization point, but in general, we're all volunteering so I hope you take that into account when setting your expectation levels 19:10
tyil and all were able to use email at the start, until someone decided to force everyone to slack and kill off all mail communication 19:11
DrForr Uh.
tyil my expectation levels are in line with the event's ideals and goals
it's in the name of the event 19:12
DrForr I understand your feelings, and I agree that in the spirit of the event we should be using free software, and not Slack. 19:15
I'm handling a lot of communications via email, and so far Stuart's been more comfortable using Slack and threaded conversations. I can certainly explain things and suggest that we switch to something like irc in that spirit. 19:17
tyil thanks
sjn tyil: If you're up for it, maybe you could put together a feature comparison list of the different FOSS and commercial options? That might help when trying to convince people :) 19:20
tyil sjn: while I don't particularly mind, I tend to just use email and irc, and not much else, so I don't have a clear overview of the features 19:22
I'll add it on my todo list nonetheless though
sjn tyil: well, helping others make informed decisions is a really good way to Make Things Happen 19:23
tyil: especially if you manage to come across as an informed and competent but neutral party
tyil I know, I write blogposts and help people with issues in code and gnu+linux environments all the time
well, I'm not neutral to begin with 19:24
I know what Slack does and how the business behind it operates
if one cares about the users, they cannot in good conscious remain "neutral" when faced with Slack
sjn (it's quite easy to dismiss people who come across as having a chip on their shoulder: "Are they sharing good points, or are they taking a biased position?"
tyil I won't pretend I hold a position I don't on my own blog, though 19:25
sjn tyil: ethical considerations are valid arguments too
tyil seems like those are easily dismissed using the ostrich technique
very few people care to think about ethical rammifications 19:26
(often that is because they'd have to accept that their highly immoral, I find)
sjn tyil: no need to pretend anything. if you aren't up for offering a heavy-hitting series of arguments (those can require a LOT of tuits), maybe it's better to just argue for one side without considering the other sides...
DrForr I will point out there that a knowledge of context can help things. 19:27
sjn it's like that with any communication - who is your audience, and what do they care about? you have to know that in order to get across points that they can accept
so yeah, context
tyil the "other side" (Slack) has certainly been considered, and in no way, shape or form can I ever see it being a solution if you care even in the slightest remote about freedom, or your peers in general
I mean, if the people don't care about free software, I don't think they're the right audience for me to aim for 19:28
in which case I find it weird that these people attend a free software event in the first place
sjn tyil: remember, that if you want to convince a loosly coupled community like ours, it's quite rare to be able to do that only by force of will... Everybody kinda has to find allies and take part in the communication game 19:29
wildtrees is riot.im and matrix free and/or open source? I use it from my phone via an app just fine , on some irc channels even with it, it was mentioned in passing already
sjn and all that has to be done with limited resources
tyil wildtrees: yes, both are free as far as I understand!
sjn: considering Slack's humoungous per-user cost, I find this to be an odd statement 19:30
Grinnz put another way: being right does not in itself get things done
DrForr Speaking of limited resources, I'd like to make one point. 19:31
sjn tyil: I'm not talking about slack specifically, but the general problem of consensus building in any open source community
tyil I am talking about Slack specifically, though 19:32
since that is the problem here
sjn tyil: so if you want to convince FOO to change platform away from slack, offer them arguments that are valid no matter the plaform they currently have
and blog about it, so others also can gain value from the knowledge and information and opinions you share 19:33
tyil sjn: so far, these arguments have been dismissed with the ostrich technique in here, mostly about the free part of the software event
sjn if you're clever, you make sure that platforms like slack look really bad :) 19:34
tyil I'm going to presume you didn't read either link I sent you
since they already do that quite well
which makes me skeptical as to why it would have any effect when I write about basically the same thing on my own blog 19:35
DrForr From my standpoint as organizer, I have 3 (three) days left to make sure people are where we need them, banners, books and swag are where we need them, people are able to get their work done, and if there are any snags, I need to be able to help them.
I would love to switch everyone over to a completely free/open communications network, but I also don't want to deal with snags. 19:36
rypervenche Obviously not for right now and I don't know that we have a say in this, but having our own Slack-like alternative might fit the bill. It has desktop, mobile, and web apps for the software as well: zulipchat.com/ 19:37
sjn tyil: there is actually some value in repeating what others are saying
rypervenche I haven't used it, but I've heard talk of it.
tyil fosdem is in 6 days (well, the Friday build up at least), and the issue has been made clear way before that through email, so while I understand your stress about it, please don't stretch things to look worse
it's not something I bring up *just* as late as I could to be a bother
sjn I wouldn't be surprised if there are other arguments to add, too
DrForr Aaaah, that's your perspective.
tyil rypervenche: zulip is good from what I heard, but people told me Rocket.Chat is more like Slack if that's the idea they think they need 19:38
sjn has tried rocket, and it's ok 19:39
a bit buggy though
tyil zulip is purely based around threads, though
DrForr And for all you know, I don't have a damn thing to do until I automatically *pop* up at FOSDEM. Which is not true.
tyil and it sounded like this was desired a bit earlier
DrForr: same goes for me, so I'm unsure what you're trying to accomplish now
sjn DrForr: I don't think that tyil is arguing for making a change *now* :) 19:40
tyil just saying you might want to not stretch things around to make me look like a boogeyman that's just out to get you at the most inconvenient time
sjn: I would if I could, but I have to accept reality in this regard :p 19:41
DrForr Please, I'm not trying to play games and make someone look like the "bad man" here.
sjn tyil: exactly, just like the rest of us have to.
tyil sjn: well, I would like to agree there, but reality is that theres still people pushing proprietary software in order to help out at a free software event! 19:42
in a community that seems to would do well with more volunteers, I'm quite amazed they're so hard against opening up to them
sjn tyil: also, let's continue this discussion sometime after FOSDEM, since we really can't do anything about it now anyway, and you've gotten your point across, and I've given you a few tips on how to make that point land well in other people's minds. :) 19:43
tyil I fear the topic being dropped completely if it's not a constant spark in the minds of those that need to reconsider past choices 19:44
especially since after fosdem, it's quite easy for people to say "well, the open event has passed, so we dont need to think about openness anymore"
sjn: why not during fosdem? 19:47
DrForr Before things break up, I'm *leaving* for FOSDEM on the 28th becuase I need to be there ahead of time. I'm also unpacking what I have, washing, repacking for two events *and* setting up a home office for my brand new job. We've *ALL* got stuff going on before, during, and after these things, and pretending that you don't need to make allowances for others' time, effort or feelings is bogus. 19:48
tyil I was told to be there on Friday, so I planned for that 19:49
DrForr: again, I'm not pretending that at all, I raised my concerns before, please don't act like this 19:50
sjn tyil: I'll be spending a lot of time at fosdem doing Perl/Raku booth things
tyil if I was told people were needed earlier, I would've planned for that 19:51
but alas
sjn tyil: but sure, if you want, the two of us can sit down with my recording equipment and have a conversation about communication tech in open source communities!
I'd love that
I plan to do some interviews at FOSDEM
tyil I'm planning to spend a lot of time at the booth too
I've made quite a number of modules, so I Hope to be able to answer many questions
sjn tyil: great, let's set aside an hour or so sometime to have a chat about that 19:52
DrForr tyil - Here's what happened with that. Wendy publicly decided not to ask for a booth this year because of some of her questions.
tyil yes, that's something I knew for about a year
DrForr At that point, TPF or someone should have picked up. Nobody did until Andrew did, a few months ago.
He was going to just label it a Raku booth, and was assuming there would be Raku-branded swag. 19:53
tyil yes 19:54
sjn tyil: would you be up for that? (it's likely we'll either publish it as part of a relaunch of the Perlcast podcast, or some other channel - I have a few options)
DrForr Nobody knew that until I pointed out that the "Introducing Perl 6" booklet didn't say Raku, and I offered to help.
tyil sjn: so long as there's no requirement to be sober, otherwise we haave to do it *right* after I wake up :)
but yes, I am certainly up for that
DrForr Instead of asking for help, he dropped the booth in TPF's lap at which point I stepped in to do organizing because I've been to 10+ of these things and know most of the people that are involved. 19:55
So *that* is why things came together so late. It sucks, but we're making do with what we have, and I've been paddling *mightily* behind the scenes to make sure that we get little things like buttons and banners ready. 19:56
sjn tyil: well, I'd like to have a coherent interlocutor, so we can try on Friday? I'll be at ULB Solbosch hopefully before noon, so I'll have a couple hours free to do stuff before we get our booth 19:57
tyil sjn: my train's scheduled to arrive 14:17, we can make some time after the booth is all set up
sjn sure
let's see what we can do
DrForr And I can talk about blogging and my module conversion strategies, though during a lunch break might be more appropriate for me. 20:02
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brisby Hello, how do I append lists? 20:51
tyil brisby: @list.append: $other-item; 20:57
m: my @foo = < a b c >; @foo.append('d'); say @foo; 20:58
camelia [a b c d]
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brisby There's no way to do it with a list? 21:01
tobs brisby: no, a List is immutable (cannot assign to allocated items and not extend the list). The mutable version of it is called Array. 21:03
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tobs but if someone gives you a list, you can call .Array on it to get back a copy of that list as an array, to which you can append. 21:04
brisby There's nothing that returns a new list, like in Haskell? 21:05
tyil m: my List $foo = ('a', 'b', 'c'); my List $bar = (|$foo, 'd'); say $bar;
camelia (a b c d)
tobs oh, you can totally create a new list that contains the old one and another element
tyil would this work?
tobs as tyil shows
brisby Append brings together 2 lists, that looks more like cons 21:06
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brisby Raku is really the first language I've encountered that doesn't provide an (immutable) list append typically (++) 21:09
tyil i would expect an immutable list to be, well, immutable, though 21:10
brisby append doesn't mutate the list, it creates a new immutable list from two immutable lists
tobs what tyil showed (|$foo, 'd') can be used on two lists as well. If you need it to be an operator, I don't think it exists, no. 21:13
m: multi infix:<++> (List:D $l1, List:D $l2) is assoc<list> { List.new: |$l1, |$l2 }; say <a b c> ++ <x y z> # shouldn't stop you from creating it, however 21:14
camelia (a b c x y z)
brisby does it work for a list of lists? 21:15
tyil as in @foo ++ @bar ++ @baz? 21:16
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tyil multi infix:<++> (List:D $l1, List:D $l2) is assoc<list> { List.new: |$l1, |$l2 }; say <a b c> ++ <x y z> ++ <1 2 3> 21:16
m: multi infix:<++> (List:D $l1, List:D $l2) is assoc<list> { List.new: |$l1, |$l2 }; say <a b c> ++ <x y z> ++ <1 2 3> 21:17
camelia Cannot resolve caller infix:<++>(List:D, List:D, List:D); none of these signatures match:
(List:D $l1, List:D $l2)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
tobs it can be made to work
tyil not exactly like this, but it can be done I'm sure
tobs m: multi infix:<++> (*@lol) is assoc<list> { List.new: ||«@lol }; say <a b c> ++ <x y z> ++ <1 2 3>
camelia (a b c x y z 1 2 3)
tyil nice 21:18
tobs although I'm surprised that ||« parses correctly :D
I mean parses and does the right thing
tyil m: multi infix:<++> (*@lol) is assoc<list> { List.new: ||«@lol }; say <a b c> ++ (<1 2 3>, <7 8 9>);
camelia (a b c 1 2 3 7 8 9)
tyil neat
brisby Try using permutations instead: $list.permutations.List <++> $list.permutations.List 21:19
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rypervenche What does the :D mean in the parameter list? 21:20
tyil rypervenche: I believe it means "definite", but I remember it as "defined" 21:21
rypervenche Thanks, that got me the search result I was looking for :)
tyil brisby: can you show me a 1-line code sample of what you're trying to achieve that's not working the way you expected? (preferably with the output you *did* expect, so we can try to work towards that) 21:22
brisby tyril: I was just wondering if I overlooked this operator since I couldn't find it in the documentation. It is literally the first operator defined in Data.List for Haskell and since Raku was originally written in Haskell, I expected it. Note that all lists in Haskell are immutable. 21:27
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brisby However, suppose I wanted to create a functional method that accumulated all the permutations of a list, how could this be accomplished? I don't want the inner permutations flattened. 21:28
tobs getting flattening right is always a bit of a struggle... 21:35