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AlexDaniel tbrowder: where exactly are you seeing this? 00:10
tbrowder: maybe it is just capitalized differently? 00:11
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tbrowder AlexDaniel: i'm seeing it on one of my modules, and the spelling is a bit strange, but i'll look closer to make sure. btw, it's my module Excel 00:59
in the modules list and zef recognizes "JSON::Hjson" 01:00
AlexDaniel > ===> Failed to find dependencies: JSON::Hjson, Inline::Perl5, Test::META 01:01
so it's not just JSON::Hjson ?
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tbrowder ah, i missed that! 01:43
afk till tomorrow, g'night all 01:46
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Geth doc: 6111e3ae9f | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/IO/Handle.pod6
Changes to current definition #2632
 06:47
doc: 8881d2f6c8 | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Type/IO/Handle.pod6
Clarifies accepted combinations, refs #2632
linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/type/IO::Handle
DOC#2632 [open]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/2632 [Hacktoberfest][RFE][big][docs][good first issue][help wanted][new][⚠ Top Priority ⚠] Checklist for 6.d
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AlexDaniel [Coke]: I'm curious, why this question about Blin? :) 07:33
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El_Che weekly: new Rakudo packages for the newly released Fedora 32: github.com/nxadm/rakudo-pkg 09:55
notable6 El_Che, Noted! (weekly)
moritz weekly: rakudo star 2020.01 docker images now available at hub.docker.com/_/rakudo-star 10:00
notable6 moritz, Noted! (weekly)
eseyman Thank you, El_Che 10:02
El_Che eseyman++ 10:04
lichtkind oh man twitter suggests to follow dr forr 10:16
lizmat yeah, have had that many times already :-(
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El_Che idd, been there as well 10:20
I had an github issue about one of his modules :(
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sena_kun Maybe modules can be somehow moved to the community repo / volunteers. 10:25
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timotimo why is jmerelo tweeting out a raku tweet with the hashtag doxxing? i'm confused 11:39
lizmat as well 11:43
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timotimo antwort'd 11:59
lizmat saw'd 12:01
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AlexDaniel m: my $x = 42; my &y = { say ‘foo’ }; $x++ 12:12
camelia ( no output )
AlexDaniel m: my $x = 42; my &x = { say ‘foo’ }; $x++
camelia ( no output )
AlexDaniel m: my $x = 42; for ^1 { my &x = { say ‘foo’ }; $x++ }
camelia ( no output )
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robertle I am in need of a read/write lock, so one where there could be one writer/exclusive or any number of reader/non-exclusive threads at the same time. but I can't find any! am I just stupid at the moment, or do we really not already have one? 14:09
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jnthn robertle: I don't remember seeing a module for that either 14:15
I assumed at some point I'd want it and write one, but never actually did :)
robertle ah darn, I'll make one then... 14:16
would you mind having a look over it when I have something? 14:17
jnthn Depends. Are you going to implement read -> write upgrade? 'cus that's a special circle of hell however it's done :) 14:19
But yeah, I can take a look.
robertle hm, I have built a readwritelock in C on top of pthreads that does read->write upgrades, and I *think* it works, but one never knows 14:20
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robertle but in the one I have you can only upgrade when there is noone else queued between your read and your wanted write, does that qualify? 14:21
jnthn Yeah, that's one way to do the trade-off
robertle do we already have consensus on what a fully "raku" module looks like? in terms of file extensions etc? or a good example? so I can do it the new raku way right from the start? 14:22
jnthn I've also seen: 1. you might lose your read lock before you get your write lock so must recheck everything, and 2. you have to say up front it's upgradeable, and only one thread can hold an upgradeable read lock at a time.
In 1 the potential to mess up is obvious. In 2 you don't have that problem, but if folks don't realize the behavior, and all reads might upgrade, they just end up with an over-priced mutex. :) 14:23
robertle ah yeah, the upgradeable! I have seen that too! so other threads can get read acces before your upgrade, but not writes, that's actually nice!
jnthn Well yes, except the caveat I mentioned. :) 14:24
robertle overprotectionism: the guilt of parents :) 14:26
jnthn I've often been lucky enough that the data I've been dealing with is small enough to just copy 14:27
And then you just use a lock to serialize changes, which always produce a new object, and can read the reference without any locking 14:28
(or cas if you don't mind re-work)
robertle yeah, a readwritelock is often clumsy and there are better ways. actually any lock is clumsy, but it's a basic building block and at least weell known 14:29
.rakumod? really? is that the current thinking? it's quite a long filename extension... 14:30
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lizmat robertle: quite a lot of thinking has gone into that :-) 14:36
robertle hey, I am not arguing against it! it's just I haven't paid attention and am surprised. 14:38
jnthn Real Media managed to use most of the extensions that start with `r`... 14:39
One doesn't type the extensions much anyway, so there's not that much reason for them to be short. 14:40
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timotimo you don't often have different kinds of files in your lib/ tree so tab will get the extension every time 14:53
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[Coke] AlexDaniel: starting to learn Russian. Tripped over a site suggesting блин as a "swear" you can use when you can't swear. 15:02
Altai-man_ [Coke], it is a dish name (a sort of pancakes, I'm having ones right now :) ) which can be, strangely enough, be used as something like "dammit", but milder. 15:03
tellable6 2020-04-29T08:04:41Z #raku-dev <AlexDaniel> Altai-man: just noticed that 2020.02.1 release announcement talks a bit too much about Perl 6
[Coke] In english, maybe "darn it".
Altai-man_ Not native enough to really feel nuances like this one, but quite possibly. 15:04
Altreus I just realised I'll never know if I've fixed my library because it will not stop outputting crap 15:11
:D
I'm going to have to poll my buffer for likely strings
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mayuresh hello all. :) 15:39
been away for quite some time.
didn't even hear about the name change from "perl 6" to "raku" till now. 15:40
looks like all is well in raku-land. ;)
btw, i have gotten converted.
jnthn Well, that's been less than a year... :)
mayuresh i now proudly consume at least a glass of "pepsi" a day.
that goes against my attachment for "coke" till a month back. 15:41
but in these difficult times, i have to contend with "black tea". :p
about the conversion to "pepsi" from "coke", thanks to mr. wall. :D 15:42
jnthn, i'd been down with severe depression, had to be hospitalised.
am much better now.
a fresh start for these dreary times. ;) 15:43
jnthn Ouch, not fun at all. Glad to hear you're doing better now.
mayuresh yeah, it was weird, i just kept getting sucked into it. 15:44
but that's the past, and now's the present, and on to the future. 15:45
timotimo yeah, the brain can be a real fucker
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mayuresh it was as if my brain craved for more of the hormones that get released when one gets depressed. 15:46
timotimo it cranks the creativity way up when it's about finding bad things and bad interpretations of neutral or even good things
oh yeah i hear that. as if the brain (though in the moment it really feels like "you") doesn't even want to get better 15:47
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mayuresh i've been reading up on various articles and news reports and interviews about "raku". 15:47
found something disturbing.
is it really true that the spec is getting updated as the implementations are evolving? 15:48
timotimo the "whirlpool" model of language development 15:49
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mayuresh :D 15:50
that was awesomely funny. :D
i think i am going to stick with good ol' perl.
jnthn Nothing gets to be considered spec until something has implemented it, so in a sense the implementation of an idea has to be realized before it can be considered to go into the next language release.
mayuresh okay, so the spec is getting tested by the implementations. 15:51
whether a specific item in the spec is realistic enough or not.
and if not, that item in the spec is amended!
hmnn, sounds reasonable enough.
now i'm in an emotional soup. 15:52
i really like "raku" and especially it's community.
timotimo it's like alphabet soup, except every letter is a different emotion
mayuresh i guess it would be worth it to hang around with "raku" for some more time. 15:53
jnthn Well, once something is in the langauge spec, then implementations should try and stick to doing it that way. In fact, these days we tend to go beyond strictly what's specified (if something causes breakage to real world code, even if it doesn't go against a specification test, we'll often try to keep the behavior and clarify the spec) 15:54
mayuresh cool. 15:55
jnthn There's infrastructure for testing the ecosystem modules against the latest Rakudo, so we can try and avoid breaking things in new compiler releases.
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mayuresh btw, anyone has any approximation about how many more years to complete agreement between the spec and the implementation? 16:03
jnthn mayuresh: The specification is versioned, so there already is agreement with the currently released version of the spec, a small bit of errata aside. 16:23
mayuresh so well, it there-on ad-infinitum then.
jnthn In so far as "the implementation does all that version of the spec mandates"
Well yes, languages generally keep evolving until nobody cares for them to any more. 16:25
[Coke] is sad to see someone drinking pepsi, but you do you, people. :)
mayuresh i was under the impression that mr. wall and his band of merry-people focused on working and delivering a spec first so that everybody would know what to expect in the end.
i guess i was wrong. 16:26
frankly, pepsi is a lot more gentle on my internals.
coke wreaked havoc.
[Coke] mayuresh: I think what you're describing is called the "synopses" and was called the spec for a while, but now the spec is the test suite.
mayuresh: apologies from its namesake! 16:27
mayuresh okay, now i am confused completely.
[Coke] But yes, a lot of work went into those.
mayuresh: ... we're complicated, it's true.
[Coke] wonders if someone wrote this down yet.
mayuresh based on what i had read about perl6, i had expected it to be a language to last us for a 100 years, at least. 16:28
[Coke] we've been working on it for 20ish years, so it's a little muddy
mayuresh true, quite muddy indeed.
[Coke] That was (is) the plan as I understand it, yes.
mayuresh if we've lost 20 years already and not yet stabilised enough for people to start using "raku" in production, we can use perl6 for another 80 years only. 16:29
given what i am reading (in parallel to this chat), i don't expect "raku" to reach a state where it would be production ready for another 10~15 years. 16:30
Altai-man_ >not using in production 16:31
eh?
MasterDuke people are already using it in production
mayuresh like perl5.
i don't see as large a body of "raku" code in mission critical deployments as "perl5" code. 16:32
also reflected by the number of job openings.
Altai-man_ Chicken-egg problem. Who will adapt the software if everyone says "Oh, so it is not adapted yet, we'll wait till someone else adapts that". 16:33
mayuresh looking at it another way, the "raku" execution environment still isn't as clean as "perl5". 16:35
'nqp' feels scary.
somehow, i get the exact same feeling when i think about mr. wall's "raku" and mr. knuth's "taocp". 16:36
"let's just hope they finish it".
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Altreus I've nearly fixed all the issues \o/ 16:39
mayuresh :)
Altreus Most of my problems were not resetting promises
[Coke] mayuresh: well, if you'd like to help, give it a shot and tell us what *you* think needs work.
Altreus I *knew* I should have made a class so I can just destroy the object and make a new one!
I mean I still should but now I really don't want to 16:40
mayuresh coke: i think it needs work on getting "finished" and certified by the group as being ready for production.
that "certification" by an authority like mr. wall, would drive people towards building applications in mission critical scenarios. 16:41
MasterDuke that already happened, that was the christmas 2015 release 16:42
mayuresh which in turn would snowball into a frenzy of activity in the fields of books, blogs, etc.
and then came "diwali". :p
timotimo we do have a whole bunch of books
mayuresh timotimo: i can see only 5 books on amazon.com
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mayuresh specifically about "raku" or "perl6" 16:42
timotimo perl6book.com/ - this has 6, but i do believe there are more already 16:43
oh it actually has 9
[Coke] mayuresh: "finished" isn't something concrete to work on. Not sure what you're asking here.
timotimo just not in the graph at the top
mayuresh i would ask for something very simple. 16:44
certify or bless a release as done for a particular version and then give it enough time (say atleast a decade) to sink in before coming out with the next version. 16:45
i really love the "ada" guys.
i liked the "c++" guys too, but their committees have gone wild off-late. 16:46
[Coke] I can't imagine we're going to not change things for a decade. That seems an odd request. 16:47
mayuresh certifying or blessing a release as "done" would mean, no changes to features, only performance improvements and bug fixes.
i didn't say you can't change things for a decade.
just don't certify or bless those changes.
keep them in a separate "in-the-works" branch 16:48
moritz well, each release is done. All the work happens on the next release then.
mayuresh which would not affect the industrial users at all.
the time between release releases is too short for the eco-system to cope up.
that's what's leading to the chicken-and-egg problem with industry adoption of "raku". 16:49
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moritz I don't think I buy that hypothesis 16:52
mayuresh one can either be truly asleep or feint it. 16:54
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moritz or have different perceptions of the reasons 16:54
mayuresh may i know your perceptions of the reasons?
moritz 1) no corporate backing 16:55
2) problems with speed and reliability
mayuresh original perl never had that either.
1 that is
moritz 3) being late to the market of general-purpose scripting languages
mayuresh 2 is a release management issue. 16:56
moritz 4) lack of a killer app
mayuresh 3 is non consequential.
so is 4.
first get what you have to work perfectly well.
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mayuresh only then consider calling it a version release. 16:57
moritz wait what? the compiler being too slow is a release management issue?
mayuresh yes.
moritz if we managed our releases better, our code would run twice as fast? how?
mayuresh if you delayed moving from one spec version to another you would have more time and energy to devote to improving an existing implementation.
moritz you make it sound as if the compiler was playing catch-up to an ever changing spec all the time 16:58
that is not how it works
mayuresh don't you think that's one of the issues?
timotimo development of rakudo is also not a zero-sum game
moritz most spec changes (in the compiler itself, not in the libraries) are driven by implementation issues, not the other way round
timotimo people work on whatever they feel comfortable with
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mayuresh i think one more problem is with the management of the project. 16:59
while i love and respect mr. wall, i think it would bode well to have sub-benevolent-dictators working under his authority, managing the sub-sections of the project.
[Coke] spec changes are very gradual and are not causing us to rewrite the implementation to play catch up. not at all. 17:00
mayuresh: You keep talking about Larry, but you may notice he's not around much these days, and that is already the way things work
moritz Larry hasn't been involved much with the development of either the language or the compiler in the past 2ish years
[Coke] You might want to catch up with the current state of the project so that your feedback can catch up as well.
mayuresh true.
[Coke] I do appreciate the effort to help, though. Thank you! 17:01
mayuresh i've been away for almost 8 years.
just inquiring, why isn't mr. wall active anymore?
i mean 2 years is a long time, hope he's in good health.
moritz mayuresh: I'd encourage you to read a few issues of rakudoweekly.blog/ it gives a good idea what's going on in Raku land 17:02
mayuresh thanks.
also moritz i subscribed to your perl 6 book mailing list. :)
moritz ah nice. Guess I should write there again soon :D 17:03
honestly I don't know much about Larry's health these days. Last time I met him at a conference, his health wasn't stellar, but he was coping 17:05
mayuresh man, that's sad news.
moritz he stepped up when the language renaming issue came up; I don't think I've seen him actively invoved with raku since then 17:06
mayuresh he's only 66 isn't he?
or rather will be on 27th sep.
is his addiction to "pepsi" doing him in? 17:08
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mayuresh off-topic question; does anyone know how to change the irc handle? 17:11
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mayuresh i would like to acquire a different one. 17:11
while being attached to my email address as the one right now.
timotimo every time i need to change something i just /msg nickserv help 17:12
mayuresh aha, thanks for that tip.
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gfldex I'm trying to write to a fifo. Both put and write don't acually write anything to the fifo. Is there a trick to it? 17:45
timotimo i assume on the other side there's a consumer reading from it? 17:46
gfldex yes
tail -f /tmp/out.fifo
timotimo is it buffering, i wonder? 17:47
gfldex works well with `echo "foo" > /tmp/out.fifo`
i did try to flush it
timotimo on my end it immediately works
gfldex I will check with a huge string (did only large yet).
timotimo tail -f on the fifo, `given "blerp".IO.open(:w) { .put("hello") }` on the other end
gfldex timotimo: that simple example works for me too 17:48
timotimo that means it's getting more interesting :) 17:49
gfldex I got the .put in a Supply. Might that interfere? 17:51
my $f = "/tmp/out.fifo".IO.open(:w); $f.put: "start"; react whenever Supply.interval(1) { $f.put("hello"); } 17:53
that will .put "start" into the fifo but not "hello" 17:54
it's not fifo related 17:55
does the same with a normal file
adding .flush works for a normal file 17:56
a fifo is not taking the .flush 17:57
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timotimo interesting 18:00
ho-hum, the supervisor thread is quite noisy on strace
gfldex a fifo needs a .close to acually flush it seams 18:01
timotimo i always get the "start" immediately, though 18:02
gfldex shall I rakudobug?
timotimo let me filter out the noise from an strace and see what happens 18:03
gfldex ok
.open .put .close on each write works as a workaround 18:07
timotimo "ping" doesn't even show up in the strace log at all (that's what i put into the fifo)
gfldex Whereby I'm not sure how fifos should work in c-land. Those c-guys have strange habits. 18:08
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timotimo i tried with :a, with :!buffer, and :bin 18:12
nothing in the strace log for some reason
wtf 18:13
when i flush it, it works
it refuses to continue when the tail isn't running and it dies when i kill the tail on the other side
with "broken pipe"
gfldex killing the tail is supposed to close the fifo on your end 18:18
well, the file handle of that fifo
That's how the OS tells you that nobody listens anymore 18:19
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timotimo yeah 19:10
the wtf was for "why does it work fine for me but not for you"
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chloekek Fifos are well-documented in man 7 fifo and man 7 pipe. 20:14
You can’t open a fifo for writing if there aren’t any readers, you’ll get ENXIO. 20:15
And AFAIK writes block until the other side reads. If the other side disappears while you write you get SIGPIPE (which MoarVM ignores) and EPIPE.
And AFAIK when that happens the fifo is still _open_ on your end, you just can’t write to it. You have to close it yourself. 20:16
It may work differently on different machines if they have different implementations of POSIX pipes. For instance, a Darwin vs a Linux machine. 20:17
Once you have figured out how pipes work, you then have to learn MoarVM’s quirks on top of them, and Rakudo’s quirks on top of that, because every layer adds more mystery in your debugging journies. 20:18
You will dsicover the endless well of joy that is cross-platform abstractions and built-in convenience. 20:19
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AlexDaniel moritz: you should probably disable security updates here: help.github.com/en/github/managing...repository 23:05
moritz: github.com/moritz/perl6-all-modules/pull/5
Grinnz huh. neat feature though 23:08
daxim I need you as an internet army. please leave a thumbs up (+1) at <github.com/Deleplace/programming-i...ues/90> so that raku is added to the chrestomathy site <www.programming-idioms.org/about#a...erage>. 23:14
the author explicitely wants and invites that feedback, see <news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23017341>.
AlexDaniel daxim: where's the source for actual idioms? 23:19
daxim what do you mean by "source"? 23:20
AlexDaniel daxim: how can I contribute Raku snippets to that website?
oooooooh I see 23:21
it's right on the website
daxim first the admin needs to add raku, that was the point of my call to action. once that's done, any web user can just submit code via web form. account is not required.
AlexDaniel okay, yeah! I see
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