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Xliff . 01:42
tellable6 2020-05-16T18:42:16Z #raku <tigerpaws> Xliff: I received an answer from the J language people, end there's no problem inlining J into raku. I don't know how familiar you are with array langauges, but J would give us a fairly solid array langauge.
2020-05-16T19:52:40Z #raku-dev <nine> Xliff: I thought you were already pretty close before you stopped? Can't remember a need for shuffling around anything
Xliff .tell tigerpaws OK, then. I will look into J! 01:44
tellable6 Xliff, I'll pass your message to tigerpaws
tigerpaws Xliff: J is Iverson's replacement for APL. It's current;ly used mostly in mathematical and financial circles. It's arcane like APL. I grew up on APL, so it's not entirely foreign to me. 01:46
Xliff LOL! I studied APL in summer camp one year.
tigerpaws: Did the J people best suggest how to inline J into Raku? 01:47
tigerpaws Xliff: you'll like J, then. Their site is a little hard to get along with, though. I'm keeping J as a seconf project after tensorflow, although it will be much easier. 01:48
Xliff Ah. You will need help with Grammars then. Writing Slangs can be tricky.
See github.com/tony-o/perl6-slang-sql for an example of a slang. 01:49
If successful, you could then write "J <j expr>" in Raw raku code. How we get it to evaluate is another story.
I will look into the J source, soon.
tigerpaws Xliff: yes, it's already been done for R, so we can follow that example. (as well as a few other things, like Excel, VBScript, etc): code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Interfaces#J_as_Server 01:53
Xliff: From the articles I've seen, it appears to be quite fast. Of course, it's all in C, so thaty would help. 01:54
Xliff tigerpaws: Hmmm... that looks like J is being used to call the external language. 02:01
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Xliff Wouldn't we want to evaluate J in Raku? 02:01
Oh. JFromR 02:02
Oops... JServer4R
tigerpaws Xliff: Lopok at J as server, not client.
oop, 'look'
Xliff: Sorry, I'm having wine and curating my King Crimson digital collection... 02:03
Xliff Heh!
Ooh! King Crimson. Been a while. 02:04
Um. Looks like jsoftware.com is having 404 issues.
tigerpaws Xliff: Yeah, I've had a few issues. But it's pretty late on the weekend, they may have gone to maintenance. 02:07
Xliff OK. I have a git clone of the J software. Looking for the addon. 02:08
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tigerpaws Xliff: I saw it earlier, and I can't find it anymore, but I thing the interface is in jsource/dllsrc/jdll.h 02:19
Xliff: I remember that the interface was basically a "call data conversion; then call repl for the expression" type of interface. So it was pretty simple. 02:21
Xliff Yeah, but I am going to need the linux equivalent.
And there are a lot of Microsoftisms in jdll.h 02:22
tigerpaws: How are you reaching the J folks? 02:23
I put in a bug report on the compilation issue I encountered. Hopefully they will get back to me this weekend. 02:24
tigerpaws I emailed them. Eric Iverson (Ken's son) responded, and told me that further questions should be adressed to the programmers forum.
Xliff: Yeah, the fact that they are interfaced into Excel and VBscript is a sort of hint. But J runs fine on linux, I've been running it on my fedora sytem here, so it should be all right. 02:27
Xliff: you need to remember that APL was primarily used on IBM mainframes, I guess that's moved over to Microsoft, the inheritor of IBM commercial clients. 02:28
Xliff OK. Well, when I get word back on the compiler bug I can continue plugging at it. I will look up the programmer's forum. 02:29
tigerpaws Xliff: The addon for R is at : github.com/jsoftware/stats_jserver4r 02:43
Xliff Thanks!
tigerpaws Ity's basically trivial: Jinit, then Jset/Jget to set/get variables, the Jdo or jexec. That's it. 02:47
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tigerpaws Xliff: I'mn not sure of the difference between Jdo and jexec, but that shouldn't be that hard to figure out. 02:48
Xliff Yep! Was hoping to bend this to my will.... 02:50
So then to get Inline::J working, we can just use Inline::SQL as an example.
And instead of "sql", we can use "jcode"
Then run that through Jexec and see what we get. 02:51
Probabjy will want to maybe even mirror it.
So the entire set will be keywords.
tigerpaws Xliff: That's pretty much what I thought. It looks easy enough. Easier than learning J, in any case. 02:55
Xliff: but for a mathematician, it could allow competing with R (or even using the J->R connection, so we get R for free) 02:56
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Xliff tigerpaws++ 03:30
tigerpaws Xliff: I haven't been so excited for years until I started into raku! I'm pleased to help. In fact, I bought the domain rakudo.ca. I'm thinking of teaching/consulting here in Montreal, where perl is pretty much dead, as far as I can tell 03:32
Xliff: maybe that's the wine talking, but I feel very comfortable in the raku community. 03:33
Xliff Excellent! I'm glad you found us!~
I feel the same way. I've been here since 2016. Started seriously working with Raku full time in 2018. 03:34
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Xliff (That's full time for projects, not a $dayJob... not yet, anyways) 03:34
If you have some time, I'd appreciate it if you took a look at my projects and offered comments/criticism/thoughts! 03:35
tigerpaws Xliff: will do. Right now, I am retired. However, I have a job interview Monday, and another one that's been postponed. I will only take a job if it's really fun. I've wanted to get into Kubernetes, and I'm very picky. 03:48
Xliff tigerpaws: Oh! Good luck! 03:49
tigerpaws Looking for a job when you don't need one is much more fun.
Xliff Heh.
tigerpaws I've done everything from APL in the early 70's, to working on the APL interpreter for a mainframe, then had my own companies doing satellite image processing, .. and more. I sold my shares in my patest company to my son, and thought I would retire. 03:52
Go bored. Now I'm back! Can't stay quiet. 03:53
Xliff :)
Well, I am off to read a book and then bed. 03:54
Have a good night!
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tigerpaws Xliff: same with me. Good might! 04:26
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Geth doc/glossary-rearrangement: 4ba2d14723 | (Sizhe Zhao)++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Make glossary entries consistent
doc: Prince213++ created pull request #3412:
Make glossary entries consistent
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Geth doc/glossary-rearrangement: f5d62535eb | (Sizhe Zhao)++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Fix link positions & add missing links
doc: 4ba2d14723 | (Sizhe Zhao)++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Make glossary entries consistent
doc: f5d62535eb | (Sizhe Zhao)++ | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Fix link positions & add missing links
doc: 38632b78bf | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | doc/Language/glossary.pod6
Merge pull request #3412 from Raku/glossary-rearrangement

Make glossary entries consistent
linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/language/glossary
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hankache hello #raku 08:02
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sarna o/ 08:06
hankache hi sarna 08:07
sarna henlo
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Prince213 hello 08:13
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hankache hi Prince213 08:19
Geth doc: 1769d5741e | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/grammars.pod6
Not really needed and makes it confusing.
doc: fe0541202b | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/grammars.pod6
Clarifies also this sentence, which seems clearer.
doc: 5a3664fcfc | (JJ Merelo)++ | doc/Language/grammars.pod6
Clarifies the difference between sub make and method make.
linkable6 Link: docs.raku.org/language/grammars
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Prince213 do we have a release schedule for rakudocs/rakudocs.github.io? It has been long since it was last updated 08:28
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hankache I believe this should become automated. Ping jjmerelo 08:33
jjmerelo rakudocs.github.io was an interim solution while we had the new domains 08:34
I just updated today the documents at docs.raku.org
And yes, it should be automated. 08:35
For the time being, I'm doing it manually from time to time.
hankache Prince213 as jjmerelo said docs.raku.org is the one being updated 08:37
jjmerelo Maybe I should post something there... or actually update it
Prince213 How can users get offline copies?
Without using p6doc 08:38
MasterDuke there is a single-page version of the docs 08:40
but i don't remember the link
Prince213 you mean docs.raku.org/perl6.html ?
jjmerelo MasterDuke that's deprecated. Prince213 there's an epub version, but it's not been updated for some time. Let me see if I can produce one, together with another release of the docs 08:41
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jjmerelo rakudocs.github.io/ should be updated now 08:43
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Prince213 Great! May I also request a PDF version (when we have automated release)? 08:44
jjmerelo It's produced by the same script that does the ePub, IIRC 08:45
Um, no, neither works now... 08:46
Sorry about that
Prince213 Never mind
jjmerelo Prince213 I reopened this issue github.com/Raku/doc/issues/1981 to get it to work again. 08:48
Thanks for your suggestions, and also the work you're doing in the doc repo and elsewhere
Prince213 Not at all. 08:51
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rba jjmerelo: I will setup the redirect docs.perl6.org to docs.raku.org now, ok? 09:05
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jjmerelo rba OK 09:22
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ToddAndMargo Anyone on newbie duty? In Raku for Windows, how do I check to see if a drive letter exists? 09:35
Prince213 Try this: 'X:\\'.IO.e 09:40
ToddAndMargo trying 09:43
In Windows 10: K:\Windows\NtUtil>raku -e "say 'd:/'.IO.e.Bool;"TrueK:\Windows\NtUtil>raku -e "say 'Z:/'.IO.e.Bool;"False 09:45
rba jjmerelo: doc|docs.perl6.org is now redirecting (301) to docs.raku.org
ToddAndMargo or back slashed (needs two of them): K:\Windows\NtUtil>raku -e "say 'd:\\'.IO.e.Bool;"True
jjmerelo rba great, many thanks!
ToddAndMargo Thank you!
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lizmat you don.t need the .Bool, .e already returns a Bool 09:50
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ToddAndMargo sometimes IO.someletter returns True of Fail, not False. Tacking .Bool on the end, means I don't have to remember which ones 09:53
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ToddAndMargo True or Fail. Typo 09:57
lizmat A Failure is always false 09:58
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ToddAndMargo A Fail is a lot more than that. here is an example: >raku -e "say Q[z:\].IO.d;"Failed to find 'Z:\' while trying to do '.d' in block <unit> at -e line 1 10:03
I use .bool at the end because I only want back a yes or no answer. And I certainly don't want it to crash. Always using .Bool keeps me out of trouble 10:04
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lizmat say "directory foo exists" if "foo".IO.d 10:19
you don't have to worry about Failure then, which is the point of Failure to begin with
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ToddAndMargo That is `if` converting the `X::IO::DoesNotExist` clutter into False for me. I never know when that will happen and when it won't, so tacking .Bool at the end keeps me out of trouble. I am not a purest here. I do not mind seeing .Bool at the end. It also tells me I will be seeing a Boolean. 10:23
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ToddAndMargo bye bye for now. Thank you all for the tips! 10:28
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.oO( some people will write BASIC in any language )
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sarna lizmat: I inherited some python scripts written by a java coder, they made a class for *everything* :^) 11:16
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Prince213 Does anyone know the difference between Pointer[] and is rw? 11:55
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robertle hm, has anyone used the ENV arg to Proc::Async.start() ? I can't quite figure out how to add an entry to the existing env without modifying the real one... 12:09
ah, my bad: $proc.start(ENV => %*ENV.append('key' => 'val') does the trick 12:11
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! CucumisSextus (0.2) by 03ROBERTLE 12:39
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andreoss do I need to specify the nqp branch for rakudo in PR so it builds correctly, or I wait for the nqp branch to be merged? 12:41
MasterDuke unfortunately you have to wait 12:42
Prince213 Does anybody know the difference between Pointer[] and is rw? 12:43
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poohman hello all, if I open a file to read using the file handle variable $fh, will not $fh.lines work multiple times? 17:13
or just once?
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MasterDuke you probably have to $fh.seek(0) between calls 17:14
poohman ok I was closing and opening it in the repl again and again
let me try with seek 17:15
MasterDuke docs.raku.org/routine/seek#(IO::Ha...ethod_seek 17:17
poohman was reading that - so 0 is the offset and if nothing is mentioned the $whence is considered to be SeekFromBeginning?? 17:18
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MasterDuke yep 18:02
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poohman MasterDuke: Thanks 18:33
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poohman hello all, I have a question about the usage of ": 18:37
sometimes I see that it is used simply to pass an argument
but can someone explain what exactly it signifies in the line below, 18:38
my @a = $fh.lines.rotor(100, :partial);
im using it a lot, but dont know the exact meaning and significance of it 18:39
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poohman for example, also in open "filename",:r; 18:39
Prince213 It's adverb
IIRC, the entry should be at docs.raku.org/language/glossary#in...try-Adverb 18:40
poohman let me have a look, thanks Prince123 18:41
Prince213 Have you used NativeCall before? 18:42
poohman just in a few test cases when I was trying out stuff 18:43
Prince213 Have you used Pointer and is rw?
poohman had a read - thats really some timtowdy 18:44
Prince213 I'm a bit confused on the difference between these two things
lizmat poohman: adverb, aka named argument (on the callers side) and named parameter (on the callee side)
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poohman thanks Prince213 & lizmat 18:48
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Sparrowdo (0.1.6) by 03MELEZHIK 18:52
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tigerpaws Is there a place for help with problems with installing commaide? 19:02
lizmat I guess here would be the place, hopefully Altai-man_ can help you 19:07
or someone else :-)
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poohman m: @a = 0 .. 10; my @b=@.rotor(3); say @b;for @b[0] -> $b {say $b;} 19:09
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '@a' is not declared
at <tmp>:1
------> 3<BOL>7⏏5@a = 0 .. 10; my @b=@.rotor(3); say @b;f
poohman m: my @a = 0 .. 10; my @b=@.rotor(3); say @b;for @b[0] -> $b {say $b;}
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable @.rotor used where no 'self' is available
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my @a = 0 .. 10; my @b=@.rotor(3)7⏏5; say @b;for @b[0] -> $b {say $b;}
poohman m: my @a = 0 .. 10; my @b=@a.rotor(3); say @b;for @b[0] -> $b {say $b;} 19:10
camelia [(0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8)]
(0 1 2)
lizmat bisectable6: dd so Any but True
bisectable6 lizmat, Bisecting by output (old=2015.12 new=4bdc9d6) because on both starting points the exit code is 0
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tigerpaws lizmat: thanks. I'm wondering what is required in the way of jdk. I'm getting errors like: penJDK 64-Bit Server VM warning: Option UseConcMarkSweepGC was deprecated in version 9.0 and will likely be removed in a future release. 19:10
ERROR: Could not initialize class java.awt.Toolkit
bisectable6 lizmat, bisect log: gist.github.com/689b85c3cfa36f9eff...9b865e6095
lizmat, (2018-07-09) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/39...ca52682bc7
poohman in the above example I was expecting $b to print 0 and then 1 and then 2, instead I get a list for $b 19:11
lizmat poohman: .rotor produces lists 19:12
so @b is an Array of Lists
poohman lizmat so @b[0] should be a list 19:13
which is then subjected to a for loop 19:14
is it not?
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lizmat yeah, but what is exposed to the for loop is an itemized List, so an item, so not iterated over 19:16
poohman hmmm, how can I coerce it to become a list or an array 19:17
timotimo strip the itemization with, for example, <> at the end
lizmat m: my @a = 0 .. 10; my @b=@a.rotor(3); say @b;for @b[0]<> -> $b {say $b;}
camelia [(0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8)]
lizmat or:
my @a = 0 .. 10; my @b=@a.rotor(3); say @b;for |@b[0] -> $b {say $b;} # slip it 19:18
evalable6 [(0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8)]
poohman thanks lizmat & timotimo - ill try to read about itemisation 19:19
tigerpaws @lizmat: it's ok, I got it commaide running in my container. 19:22
lizmat poohman: basically, anything coming out of an array / list / hash is an item
aka, is a value inside a container 19:23
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lizmat m: my @a = ^10; my $c := @a[5]; $c = 42; dd @a 19:23
camelia Array @a = [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 42, 6, 7, 8, 9]
lizmat or shorter:
m: my @a = ^10; @a[5] = 42; dd @a
camelia Array @a = [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 42, 6, 7, 8, 9]
lizmat it being a value inside a container, makes it possible to assign to arrays / hashes 19:24
Prince213 Hi lizmat, I don't see document comparing Pointer and the is rw trait. Could you explain these two? Are there differences? When should I use Pointer? 19:25
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lizmat .tell Prince213 did you read docs.raku.org/language/nativecall ? 19:27
tellable6 lizmat, I'll pass your message to Prince213
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Prince213 Yes. But not very helpful for my problem. For example I have `sub foo(Pointer[Bar] $baz) is native { * } ` and `sub foo(Bar $baz is rw) is native { * } `. Are these two exactly the same? If not, what are the differences? 19:31
tellable6 2020-05-17T19:27:20Z #raku <lizmat> Prince213 did you read docs.raku.org/language/nativecall ?
lizmat Prince213 my NativeCall foo is not that strong, but without the "is rw" the parameter is value, and *with* it, it passes a pointer 19:37
lizmat hopes someone else has a better answer for Prince213 19:38
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Prince213 So when I use Pointer I'm still passing value, but the value itself is a pointer. When I use is rw trait, I'm passing a pointer. Am I right? 19:40
lizmat that would be my interpretation as well, but again, my NativeCall foo is not that strong :-) 19:41
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Prince213 Does this hold in CStruct s? 19:43
Anyway thanks lizmat! 19:49
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sena_kun tigerpaws, re comma: still around? 20:33
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tigerpaws sena_kun: I'm back. 21:13
sena_kun tigerpaws, o/ 21:14
tigerpaws, what os do you use?
tigerpaws send_kun: I've got comma running in my container, I had to install openjdk, even though I thought it was already there.
sena_kun tigerpaws, so it works now?
tigerpaws I am running on Fedora Silverblue, in a 'toolbox' container.
Yes, it works. I'm getting used to it slowly. 21:15
@sens_kun: thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate it.
@sena_kun, I mean. 21:16
sena_kun I am strongly recommending using oracle jdk. I am using 8u202 and it's fine for everything. If you are on openjdk it should work, I think, but if anything happens you can consider this advice.
tigerpaws, no problem, thanks for using Comma!
tigerpaws sena_kun: I will remember that. Is there a version to watch out for? I'm on openjdk 11, there's 14 available. 21:17
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sena_kun .tell patrickb results of your integrating rakudo with azure look awesome. What I am worrying about is maybe we should have a bit more user-friendly build names if possible? On github page (actions tab) for the commits I'm seeing just "rakudo.rakudo (Test Test ..." and nothing else, so have to mouse hover to get exact name. Also, "Windows_MoarVM_NQP_master_MoarVM_master" can be just "Windows, Rakudo, MoarVM"? Rakudo always implies NQP and the caterogies 21:21
should be probably, e.g. "$OS, $VM", "$OS, NQP ($VM)", "$OS, Rakudo ($VM)".
tellable6 sena_kun, I'll pass your message to patrickb 21:22
El_Che someone recommending Oracle jdk
that has been a while :)
most people just shout "run, run"
sena_kun El_Che, dunno, first time I started to work on Comma with openjdk and hell was raised with all the troubles and tricky errors. It was almost three years ago. A half of a year one of our colleagues started to help out with Comma and spent two days trying to make it work with openjdk... And then went for oracle. Not wanting to be a corporate slave, but software. 21:24
patrickz sena_kun: The build combinations are more complex than that: rakudo + nqp via NQP_REV + moar vai NQP_REV, rakudo + nqp via NQP_REV + moar master branch, rakudo + nqp master branch + moar master branch 21:26
those three combinations are what the names also refer to
El_Che I run Shibboleth IDP for 150k people. The makers were pretty strong on using oracle jdk
not any more
because Oracle killed java with their license change
not allowed to run it on production
support cycles of 6 months
etc etc 21:27
sena_kun: I had to move de Shib install to the Amazon jdk
patrickz I really don't see any way to simplify the names except using abbreviations.
sena_kun: Maybe "Win_Moar", Win_Moar_master", "Win_Moar_master_master" - but then nobody not familiar with the convention will have no chance to know what it's about 21:29
sena_kun patrickz, what's the merit of checking master nqp / master moar? Unless someone of core devs asked for that. I mean, given some changes must be merged in sync, there might be false positives.
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El_Che sena_kun: I've my fair share of troubles with openjdk on prod in the past (weird crashes and lock ups). But I don't think it is longer the case 21:29
sena_kun: because pretty much every project moved off Oracle jdk last year when the license changed
sour hello, does anyone have example projects structure for multi-module projects, separated in bin/ and lib/ parts, comma IDE or not? 21:30
sena_kun El_Che, taking a note to try it out, I guess, thanks. :)
patrickz sena_kun: That's a direct copy of what's happening on travis and CircleCI (github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...is.yml#L44 and github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...g.yml#L51)
El_Che sena_kun: not going for the anti-Oracle trumpet here, just pointing out the license changes that made it illegal to run it on production 21:31
on the desktop or as dev tool it's OK of course
sena_kun sour, are you asking of Comma support multi-module projects or just want to see how can it work with Raku?
sour how it can work with raku, and zef I suppose. I don't care about Comma, but if you got one with that, I don't mind
patrickz I think I can't just remove CI build combinations without broader discussion. But I'm all in favor of _not_ doing test runs that don't bring any value. 21:32
sena_kun El_Che, damn, let's pretend I was joking if it goes to the court...
patrickz, I see... Yes, simple removing is out of the question. I'd maybe, ugh, no, problem solving is not the right place... I'd poked core devs with this question, I'd say. At least lizmat, jnthn... 21:34
patrickz sena_kun: Maybe just a normal issue ticket in the rakudo repo will do. Shall I kick off a discussion? 21:35
sena_kun sour, a distribution (with bin, lib, t, resources etc) can contain numerous subparts. 21:36
patrickz, yes, a rakudo ticket will do, even in a more documented manner than irc talks.
sour, e.g. see github.com/Altai-man/sample-cro-crud <- in `lib` there are multiple "sections" for different things. You can organize your code in different module files for FeatureX/A, FeatureX/B, then FrontendA/C, FrontendB/D and so on. Tests in t/ directory can be separated as well as runners will run them recursively. 21:39
sour yes, thanks for that example, I also started looking at github raku projects :P 21:41
sena_kun That's another way. :]
sour I've just got one question, how are META6.json description files for zef created? Are they manually created and edited? 21:47
sena_kun sour, manually created and edited, but there are tools for stubbing them and maintaining, so if you're lazy that's great. 21:49
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sena_kun e.g. App::Mi6, Ddt. I used Ddt and it was pretty cool. Other than that, Comma also helps in maintaining META6.json file. 21:50
patrickz sena_kun: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/3700
sena_kun patrickz++
patrickz There is also App::Assixt 21:52
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sour these seem great, thanks a lot! 21:53
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