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lucs They're so powerful, it's hard to be both concise and complete. 00:00
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RaycatWhoDat Hello. 00:24
Just have one question about Raku today: do you feel like Raku is a good language for solving problems with changing requirements? 00:26
lucs Changing requirements is more of a management problem, no? 00:27
[Coke] Yes, although I feel like your process has more to do with that than your language. 00:28
"be agile" "move things left" yada yada.
RaycatWhoDat That is a fair point. 00:29
guifa I find Raku to be fairly nice for doing regular refactors 00:30
Which could probably be evidence of going well with changing requirements, thoguh not exactly the same thing
RaycatWhoDat What's that process like? Is there any hot-patching functionality similar to say, Lisp? 00:31
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RaycatWhoDat Or is it just good ol' refactoring? 00:31
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[Coke] comma IDE has actual refactoring support, I think. 00:32
guifa isn't familiar with Lisp, unfortunately, so can't comment along those lines 00:33
RaycatWhoDat Ah. Basically, you keep a core image running, connect remotely into the image, and recompile a function inside. 00:34
Also, I didn't know there was a whole IDE to Raku,.
guifa I don't believe you can do that right now, but there's really no reason such a thing couldn't be done down the road I don't think
hobbs RaycatWhoDat: that kind of thing is entirely possible technically, but I don't know of any developer environment for it short of writing all the bits yourself :) 00:35
RaycatWhoDat Gotcha. I would make it but I am not good enough to do so. 00:36
hobbs but the language lets you compile code at runtime, functions and blocks are first-class, and there's enough introspection into the lexical environment and things like that, that I don't see why not :)
RaycatWhoDat Mm. I think I'll have to explore Raku again. I keep jumping back-and-forth because I have terrible FOMO but it's always fascinated me. 00:39
I want a language that's fun to explore and write in, not just another popular one and not one that just gets hated on forever.
hobbs well I'm not sure if you can really dodge all the hate in the world, but there's definitely some fun to be had 00:40
RaycatWhoDat Yeah, I know it's a lost cause. 00:42
I'm a JavaScript dev so, my whole career is shit to other devs.
I just wanna have fun and make games, to be honest. 00:43
hobbs I do a bit of JS, and there's some nice things that have happened in the language core, but I can't buy into the ever-shifting frameworks and libraries. 00:48
I used to work for a Perl shop, then they decided to throw everything away and replace it with Node because "Perl devs are too hard to hire". Now I mostly get paid to write Go.
which is... okay :) 00:49
RaycatWhoDat See, that's a solid criticism. I don't like the JS ecosystem very much 00:50
Would much rather prefer a solid number of curated libraries
[Coke] I've worked for several local consulting places, and getting matches between perl devs and perl gig was never easy in this area.
and the gigs were often "oh, hey, we didn't really support this mission critical app, can you... do something?" 00:51
hobbs heh, yeah :)
RaycatWhoDat Do y'all use Perl and Raku?
Or just Raku?
hobbs there's still Perl in my life 00:52
one of my bigger hobby projects at the moment is a bunch of services talking to each other written in a mix of Perl, Python, and Fortran :) 00:53
Grinnz RaycatWhoDat: look at it this way, you're not a php developer :)
RaycatWhoDat I don't recall PHP being too painful 00:55
But I only scratched the surface of it
Grinnz phpsadness.com/ 00:56
that the majority of these are not even addressed in 7.0 is really all that needs to be said
RaycatWhoDat Ehhhhh 00:57
As a JavaScript dev, I can't bring myself to bash on any particular language 00:58
Grinnz even knowing plenty of perl's dirty secrets I still find php a particular kind of wtf 00:59
RaycatWhoDat I think a lot of the web technologies kinda adopt a unhealthy amount of cruft from jump 01:00
Then again, I've only scratched the surface of things so, I don't really know 01:01
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jdv79 php is the _shit_ 01:23
i've had to "do" it a bunch for a couple years now and my opinion has only deepened 01:24
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guifa jdv79: do you mean it's shit or it's the shit? lol 03:29
RaycatWhoDat I would imagine the latter since the "the" is there 03:35
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sarna o/ 07:10
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lizmat weekly: randomgeekery.org/post/2020/05/set...-rakubrew/ 07:15
notable6 lizmat, Noted! (weekly)
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Lumberjack (0.0.11) by 03JSTOWE 08:21
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sour lumberjack release, yay! 08:27
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Kaiepi . 10:56
damn freenode needs to sort their ssl stuff out... 10:57
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chloekek Perhaps you can post constructive feedback in #freenode to help administrators solve the problems you are experiencing. 11:10
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RaycatWhoDat vividsnow: You okay? You've been joining and quitting for the last 6ish hours. 12:08
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Xliff . 12:26
tellable6 2020-05-17T06:26:36Z #raku-dev <nine> Xliff: but none of those changes changed the architecture? So what is preventing the original plan from succeeding?
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jdv79 guifa: yes and sarcastically yes 12:36
Xliff o/ 12:40
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Kaiepi thanks chloekek 12:53
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jdv79 m: class C is Hash { has $.a = "foo" }; C.new.a.say 14:03
camelia (Any)
jdv79 shouldn't that set?
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Xliff m: class C { has $.a = "foo" }; C.new.a.say 14:04
camelia foo
Xliff Hmmmm.... I would say so. 14:05
m: class C is Int { has $.a = "foo" }; C.new.a.say
camelia (Any)
Xliff m: class A { }; class C is A { has $.a = "foo" }; C.new.a.say
camelia foo
Xliff m: class C is Hash { has $.a submethod TWEAK { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say 14:06
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Two terms in a row
at <tmp>:1
------> 3class C is Hash { has $.a7⏏5 submethod TWEAK { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.
expecting any of:
infix stopper
statement …
Xliff m: class C is Hash { has $.a; submethod TWEAK { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say
poohman m: class C is Hash { has $.a = "foo" }; C.new.a.WHAT
camelia (Any)
( no output )
Xliff m: class C is Hash { has $.a; submethod TWEAK { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say
camelia (Any)
poohman m: class C { has $.a = "foo" }; C.new.a.WHAT
camelia ( no output )
Xliff Something is wrong with compositing.
MasterDuke committable6: v6c class C is Int { has $.a = "foo" }; C.new.a.say
lizmat I guess Hash isn't really set up for subclassing 14:07
committable6 MasterDuke, gist.github.com/f47dd6a85462951970...94d26d30ed
jdv79 or List or Int
MasterDuke bisectable6: old=2017.09 class C is Int { has $.a = "foo" }; C.new.a.say
bisectable6 MasterDuke, Bisecting by output (old=2017.09 new=2b81f97) because on both starting points the exit code is 0
Xliff Wow! That's not been working since 2017.10?
jdv79 i thought all types were supposed to be more equal than that 14:08
bisectable6 MasterDuke, bisect log: gist.github.com/3747029a456ad0c583...13ba609d46
MasterDuke, (2017-10-23) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/e4...c8918a41e0
MasterDuke committable6: v6c class C is Hash { has $.a = "foo" }; C.new.a.say 14:09
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committable6 MasterDuke, ¦v6c (43 commits): «(Any)␤» 14:09
Xliff m: class C is Hash { has $.a; submethod BUILD { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say 14:11
camelia (Any)
Xliff So none of the submethods are being executed when using Hash or Int as the base class.
m: class C is Str { has $.a; submethod BUILD { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say
camelia foo
Xliff Str works fine.
m: class C is Array { has $.a; submethod BUILD { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say
camelia (Any)
Xliff m: class C is Int { has $.a; submethod BUILD { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say 14:12
camelia (Any)
Xliff m: class C is Num { has $.a; submethod BUILD { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say
camelia ( no output )
lizmat Xliff: please make an issue, hopefully we can fix this without too much performance impact
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Xliff lizmat: Not my issue. poohman found this one. 14:12
jdv79 i found it
on Hash. i'll make it.
Xliff jdv79++ 14:13
jdv79: Mention it works for Str
m: class C is Pair { has $.a; submethod BUILD { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say
camelia Cannot resolve caller new(C:U: ); none of these signatures match:
(Pair: Cool:D \key, Mu \value, *%_)
(Pair: Mu \key, Mu \value, *%_)
(Pair: Mu :$key!, Mu :$value!, *%_)
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Xliff m: class C is Supply { has $.a; submethod BUILD { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say
camelia Cannot directly create a Supply. You might want:
- To use a Supplier in order to get a live supply
- To use Supply.on-demand to create an on-demand supply
- To create a Supply using a supply block
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
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Xliff m: class C is Cool { has $.a; submethod BUILD { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say 14:13
camelia foo
Xliff Int/Hash/Array fail 14:14
m: class C is Rat { has $.a; submethod BUILD { $!a = "foo" }; }; C.new.a.say
camelia (Any)
Xliff Probably due to the nature of .new 14:15
rir role R { method doer() returns Str { ... } method per_doer() { say $.doer() }}class D does R { method doer() { return "D" } # Can this be done within R?}
Xliff rir: Why do you want that done in R? 14:16
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Xliff m: role R { method doer { return "D" }; method per_doer { say self.doer }; }; class D does R { }; D.new.doer; 14:17
camelia ( no output )
Xliff m: role R { method doer { return "D" }; method per_doer { say self.doer }; }; class D does R { }; D.new.doer.say;
camelia D
Xliff rir ^^
rir I am implementing a mass of classes that are spec'd by ISO. If the role can pull the concrete class name there is SPOT. 14:19
Xliff Oh. You want the role to pull the class name?
m: role R { method doer { return self.^name }; method per_doer { say self.doer }; }; class D does R { }; D.new.doer.say;
camelia D
Xliff rir ^^ 14:20
rir Xliff, I'll rtm about ^. Thanks, thought I was missing an obvious tree for being in the wrong part of the forest! 14:22
Xliff rir: .^name, not .^ 14:23
rir: .^ is a metamodel call, so you will need to read about the MOP
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rir Thanks for the ref. 14:24
Xliff docs.raku.org/language/mop
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jdv79 github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/3704 14:26
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lucs I just built the HTML doc from the github.com/Raku/doc 15:07
jmerelo lucs: great! 15:08
lucs My local display is different from docs.raku.org/
Is that normal?
CSS appears to be completely different 15:09
jmerelo lucs: did you build the assets first?
lucs Not sure...
When I do make for-documentable , I get an error:
Subroutine main::app redefined at (eval 71) line 1.
jmerelo lucs did you follow instructions here? github.com/Raku/doc/#building-the-...umentation
timotimo building the assets is probably annoying, so perhaps put pre-built assets on github in the releases tab using whatever CI we have set up 15:10
lucs jmerelo: I think so, yeah.
jmerelo lucs: please raise an issue...
lucs jmerelo: Um, reading it again, I think I might have skipped something :/ 15:11
I'll see if I can fix it.
jmerelo timotimo: Well... maybe. But please raise another issue here.
lucs Must I do this if I already have node installed?: curl -sL deb.nodesource.com/setup_12.x | sudo -E bash - 15:12
(Running Slackware)
Oh, wait. 15:13
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lucs I didn't do the cpanm --installdeps . 15:13
jmerelo lucs: no 15:19
lucs: there's a good amount of dependencies, I'm afraid... We should try and avoid them.
lucs Well, so far so good anyway. 15:20
The installdeps worked well, and I'm now doing the documentable start ... again. 15:21
Hmm... It appears to have rebuilt the cache, but I seem to still not be getting the proper CSS. 15:26
I'll try a "make clean" (if that exists)
Okay, doing the 'documentable start ...' now. 15:27
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lucs No luck :( 15:31
Not that it's unreadable or anything, but it's quite different from the normal website. 15:32
poohman hello all, if I git clone a module and make some changes - how can I include that in my Raku scripts for testing
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poohman want to get under the Test::CSV problem I was having 15:33
lucs After the 'make clean', 'make for-documentable' gave a "make: Nothing to be done for 'for-documentable'."
jmerelo: I'd like to debug this if possible. Can you point me to something I should be looking for, like CSS files that might be missing, or something? 15:35
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lucs poohman: Did you try setting PERL6LIB to point to your modified lib/ directory? 15:36
jdv79 m: 25.8975320000.Num.say 15:37
camelia at SETTING::src/core.c/Exception.pm6:435 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/runtime/CORE.c.setting.moarvm:print_exception)
from gen/moar/stage2/NQPHLL.nqp:2087 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/nqp/lib/NQPHLL.moarvm:command_eval)
jdv79 m: 25.8975320000.Num
camelia ( no output )
jdv79 wut
m: 25.Num.say 15:38
camelia ( no output )
poohman lucs : any links to some documentation regarding that
jdv79 m: 25.Num
camelia ( no output )
jdv79 is the bot broken?
in any case 25.8975320000.Num.say gives 25.897532000000002 for me. shouldn't that just kick back 25.897532 ? 15:40
lucs poohman: docs.raku.org/programs/03-environm...y-PERL6LIB
jdv79 .Rat seems to work but is that a bug for .Num? 15:41
lucs I guess it's RAKUDOLIB nowadays :) 15:42
jdv79 isn't it RAKULIB? 15:43
lucs I see RAKUDOLIB on that web page.
(hmm... RAKULIB seems more logical, yeah)
jnthn jdv79: The literal is a Rat, so it has to convert it. Not all values that a Rat can represent are representable precisely as a Num, so maybe that's what you're seeing.
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jdv79 seems RAKUDOLIB and RAKULIB work - werid 15:44
jnthn: ah, right
lucs Huh
jdv79 thanks
jnthn jdv79: You can write 25.897532e0 to force a Num literal in the first place 15:45
patrickb I try to get an overview of the different syntaxes for List/Map/Array/Hash construction. This is what I've got: gist.github.com/patrickbkr/17cf890...528d576d9d 15:46
I'm not looking for an exhaustive list, just "as nice as it gets". Obviously answers will be biased. 15:47
Did I miss a nicer / rakuier variant? 15:48
[Coke] m: my @a=<this is nice, though>; 15:49
camelia ( no output )
[Coke] m: my @a=<this is nice, though>; say @a.sort.map(*.flip);
camelia (si ,ecin siht hguoht)
patrickb m: my @a=<this is nice, though>; @a.WHAT; 15:50
camelia ( no output )
patrickb m: my @a=<this is nice, though>; say @a.WHAT;
camelia (Array)
lucs m: my $x = 42; say << This is super $x nice >>; 15:51
camelia (This is super 42 nice)
jdv79 wow, the number conversions are not terribly intuitive. 15:52
nope, 25.897532000e0.Num.say does the same thing 15:53
lucs m: sub f {$^a}; say Q:f"This is &f("so nice".uc), I want to cry."
camelia This is SO NICE, I want to cry.
jdv79 well. the .Num is useless but still odd result 15:54
lucs I use that last form to build LaTeX scripts, without having to escape half the characters.
(nothing to do with arrays, but just saying) 15:55
jdv79 seems like a bug to me
MasterDuke committable6: v6c say say 25.897532e0
committable6 MasterDuke, gist.github.com/de5654703587198817...5465cada69
MasterDuke bisectable6 old=2018.03 say 25.897532e0 15:56
bisectable6: old=2018.03 say 25.897532e0 16:00
bisectable6 MasterDuke, Bisecting by output (old=2018.03 new=2eec62f) because on both starting points the exit code is 0
MasterDuke, bisect log: gist.github.com/c0423da181b9ab849e...378ccd19e7
MasterDuke, (2018-03-25) github.com/rakudo/rakudo/commit/a2...bf10bc1d11
MasterDuke what i suspected 16:01
jdv79 funky 16:02
MasterDuke jdv79: if you don't mind creating another issue...
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jdv79 where? 16:02
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MasterDuke or moarvm 16:06
jdv79 k 16:07
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jdv79 github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/issues/1289 16:17
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hungrydonkey I want to know if all exceptions are resumable. 16:30
MasterDuke hungrydonkey: most aren't really 16:37
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hungrydonkey I found method .resume can also produce exceptions. 16:42
melezhik Hi rba please ping me when you are here, thanks
hungrydonkey So I'm confused.
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jnthn hungrydonkey: What's confusing? If you try to resume an exception that isn't resumable at all (e.g. 'cus it's thrown by the runtime), you'll get an exception telling you it's not possible. Even then, an exception is often thrown by code because going further will have bad consequences. You should only really call .resume on exceptions designed to be used that way. 17:05
For example, warnings are implemented using resumable control exceptions. 17:06
rba melezhik: pong 17:07
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melezhik 5 minutes 17:10
will write you to pm 17:11
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hungrydonkey Okay , I understand. Thank you, jnthn. 17:12
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poohman m: my $a = 0 .. 20; say @$a; 17:24
camelia Unhandled exception: Failed to write bytes to filehandle: No space left on device
from SETTING::src/core.c/Exception.pm6:492 (/home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/runtime/CORE.c.setting.moarvm:<anon>)
from gen/moar/Compiler.nqp:55 (/home/…
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poohman m: my $a = 0 .. 5; say @$a; 17:24
camelia ( no output )
poohman m: my $a =0 .. 5; say @$a; 17:25
camelia ( no output )
poohman that gives an output in my repl 17:26
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poohman m: my $a =0 .. 5; say $a; 17:26
camelia ( no output )
poohman m: my $a =0..5; say $a;
camelia ( no output )
poohman m: my $a = ^5; say $a;
camelia ( no output )
poohman m: my $a = ^5;$a.say; 17:27
camelia ( no output )
poohman e: my $a = ^5;$a.say;
evalable6 ^5
poohman e: my $a =0..5; say $a;
evalable6 0..5
poohman e: my $a =0..5; say @$a;
evalable6 (0 1 2 3 4 5)
poohman e: my $a="this is a test"; $_.=uc for @$a;say $a; 17:30
evalable6 (exit code 1) Cannot modify an immutable Str (this is a test)
in block <unit> at /tmp/x5IUc2L_NL line 1
poohman e: my $a="this is a test"; {$_.=uc for @$a};say $a; 17:31
evalable6 (exit code 1) Cannot modify an immutable Str (this is a test)
in block at /tmp/gZW6W1r9EW line 1
in block <unit> at /tmp/gZW6W1r9EW line 1
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MasterDuke moritz, nine: i think camelia has some problems 17:52
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[Coke] looks like the build she's using failed. can we get a bump and update her? 17:59
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MasterDuke i think it's no space on the device. looks like maybe it writes output to a file and then read it back? 18:04
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[Coke] df output looks ok 18:10
MasterDuke Unhandled exception: Failed to write bytes to filehandle: No space left on device` just a little while ag 18:13
[Coke] ... oh. I'm looking at a gist, not the full output. :| 18:14
m: so the first two rows look great! :) 18:15
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Negation metaoperator not followed by valid infix
at <tmp>:1
------> 3so the first two rows look great!7⏏5 :)
expecting any of:
infix stopper
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moritz m: say 42 18:54
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camelia 42 18:55
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moritz star: say $*VERSION 19:29
camelia sudo: /home/camelia/bin/perl6-m: command not found
moritz 2017.07? really? 19:30
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[Coke] yikes. 19:32
melezhik hi rba please ping me when you're here, thanks
[Coke] .tell melezhik using tell is probably better. 19:33
tellable6 [Coke], I'll pass your message to melezhik
melezhik .tell rba - please let me know when you are here, thanks
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to rba
melezhik [Coke] thanks for help! 19:34
I am still irc novice , he-he :-))
moritz I'm building a newer star for camelia right now 19:35
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lizmat moritz: based on tyil[m] and hankache's work ? 19:36
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moritz star-m: say $*VERSION 19:42
camelia sudo: /home/camelia/bin/perl6-m: command not found
moritz hm, wrong path
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moritz m: say 'alive?' 19:44
camelia alive? 19:45
moritz star-m: say $*VERSION
camelia Dynamic variable $*VERSION not found
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
moritz star-m: say $?VERSION
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '$?VERSION' is not declared. Did you mean 'Version'?
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say 7⏏5$?VERSION
lizmat star-m: dd $*VM.version 19:46
camelia v2020.01.1
moritz thanks lizmat
lizmat why not put the 2020.05.1 RC1 in there ?
moritz ^^ 19:47
moritz lizmat: URL?
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lizmat checks the RWN: www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl6...g8497.html 19:48
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moritz thanks 19:55
cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Gnome::GObject (0.16.8) by 03MARTIMM 20:01
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moritz star-m: say $*VM.version 20:09
camelia v2020.05
moritz lizmat: ^^ :D
std: 3 2 20:10
nqp-jvm: say(42) 20:12
camelia Error occurred during initialization of VM
Could not allocate metaspace: 1073741824 bytes
moritz rakudo-jvm: say(42)
camelia 42
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moritz it turns out that on the evalbot server, share/perl6/core/precomp has accumulated 701MB 20:30
melezhik hopefully we will bring RakuDist soon to community infrastructure, that will untie RakuDist from my azure subscription that will cease in 1-2 months 20:31
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melezhik twitter.com/melezhik2/status/12632...19108?s=20 cc rba AlexDaniel` 20:31
chloekek Cool, apparently tomorrow is a day off. 20:34
moritz it is, at least in .de :D 20:40
chloekek And Pentecost as well. 20:41
I wish holidays were distributed evenly across the year rather than across |(feb .. may), dec. 20:42
moritz agreed 20:43
though many of us take off some time in the jul..sep range
chloekek Cherry-pick important inventions, discoveries, and accomplishments in the past and celebrate those. 20:44
El_Che melezhik: is there community owned infra since the last one died? 20:45
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melezhik El_Che maybe I chose not accurate phasing. Anyway we are bringing RakuDist to the same machine where Blin runs. And RakuDist workers will be run as aws instances 21:00
rba probably could give more details 21:01
phasing -> phrasing
I just attached a screenshot of RakuDist web UI part - twitter.com/melezhik2/status/12632...44/photo/1 21:05
the same tweet
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melezhik .tell rba I need 2 http ports open to public or (just one if we decide to proxy by nginx ) on VM to allow RakuDist web UI and Sparky to be accessible publicly 22:22
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to rba
El_Che melezhik: thx for the info 22:23
melezhik yeah, you are welcome
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Doc_Holliwould can i get the arity of a code block? 22:33
or, when i have a callable in a variable, how can i find out how many arguments the block expects? 22:34
jnthn .arity is the number of required positional arguments, .count is the number of positional arguments including optionals and is Inf if it's slurpy 22:35
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uzl[m] Hello, everyone! I'm trying to create a class using the MOP but having trouble: pastebin.run/5f4q5NMSj- The class I want to recreate is at the top of the file commented out. 23:17
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timotimo uzl[m]: i think the problem comes from having the "my method" outside of a class, so '$!value' doesn't make sense or cannot be found or whatever 23:19
you can self.^attributes blah blah .set_value(...) and .get_value() 23:20
and your attribute addition doesn't make it public i think 23:21
github.com/timo/ADT/blob/master/lib/ADT.pm6 - feel free to steal 23:22
uzl[m] timotimo: I'll definitely steal from it 😄�😅�. Thanks! 23:26
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