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Set by ChanServ on 14 October 2019.
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CIAvash softmoth: wow! 3 weeks seems like a lot 04:22
softmoth Yeah. Request was on April 12 (www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.modul...0999.html) and acceptance on May 3 (www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.modul...071.html). But I didn't carp (or croak), maybe you'll have better luck! 04:33
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poohmaan hello all 06:20
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poohmaan hello all 06:21
Will flat not work on a Seq of Seqs?
gfldex raku: my \s = Seq(<a b c>, <d e f>); dd s.flat 06:24
evalable6 ("a", "b", "c", "d", "e", "f").Seq
gfldex poohmaan: looks like it
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poohmaan then Im still making a mistake with containers and itemisation 06:25
my example did not for arrays as well 06:26
m: my @a =[1,2,3,[4,5]]; say @a.flat;
camelia (1 2 3 [4 5])
poohmaan gfldex - can you please tell me how that is normally flattened 06:27
m: my @a =[1,2,3,[4,5]]; say @a.flat.raku; 06:28
camelia (1, 2, 3, $[4, 5]).Seq
gfldex I normaly don't flatten such structures. I either slip stuff when Positionals are created or I use deepmap to maintain the structure.
poohmaan I think I saw an example in the docu for this
m: my @a =[1,2,3,[4,5]]; say @a.deepmap(*+1); 06:29
camelia [2 3 4 [5 6]]
poohmaan I have to flatten it to use unique on it 06:30
gfldex raku: say (gather [[1,2,3,4],[[4,5,6],6,7]].deepmap(*.take)).unique 06:35
evalable6 (1 2 3 4 5 6 7)
gfldex poohmaan: ^^^
poohmaan thanks 06:37
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gfldex raku: my %seen; [[1,2,3,4],[[4,5,6],6,7]].deepmap({%seen{$_} = True}); say %seen.keys 06:43
evalable6 (3 5 7 1 6 4 2)
gfldex poohmaan: for large lists of Str where order doesnt matter this might be better 06:44
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moon-child how do I make a slang? Is mouq.github.io/slangs.html up-to-date? 06:53
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elcaro moon-child: slangs are a little hairy to get your head around if you're not familiar with how the language is implemented 07:07
my recommendation would be look at modules under the 'Slang::' namespace and try to modify it 07:08
I have a couple of gists... the first on just adds 'fn' and 'var' as aliases for 'sub' and 'my'
The second is not mine, but take from Damian Conway's blog about adding an 'else' statement to a for block 07:09
the `else` is entered only if the `for` block doesn't get entered
I've also used simple slangs like the first one to allow different suffixes on variables and identifiers 07:11
moon-child ok
elcaro Like PRIME, ie. `my $x = 1; my $x′ = 2`
moon-child what about something like github.com/tony-o/perl6-slang-sql that adds a new slang instead of extending MAIN? (Is that one still current? It's a few years old)
elcaro I'm not an expert. I have used Slang::SQL and it worked ok, so whatever he's doing seems to still work. 07:13
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gfldex lolibloggedalittle: gfldex.wordpress.com/2020/06/14/sw...xceptions/ 07:53
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nige hi 10:19
I'm working on a proposal for Perl + Raku marketing and wanted to explore how something could be done in Raku ... anyone around? 10:20
oddp Just shoot, someone is going to answer sooner or later. 10:26
Damn, got bitten by this again, wondering why my rules wouldn't match: `G.parse(slurp "input.txt", actions => A)`
Noob me has to ask, is there a way to force a warning?
ShimmerFairy I'm guessing the "actions => A" is getting eaten up by the un-paren'd slurp call. 10:28
oddp Yeah. 10:29
nige the marketing proposal is for attracting new (and old) Perl and Raku programmers 10:30
the plan takes inspiration from stackoverflow 10:31
Altai-man_ With case of warning, you don't want false positives, and as machine can't know what do you want exacty...
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nige it will be a place where people can request code for their coding problems (e.g., I need some code to parse text from HTML) 10:32
the main emphasis is solving specific coding problems - people might have
so not really a Q +A site ... and more of a Q + Coding Solution site 10:33
code can be in Perl + Raku (and other languages) 10:34
Altai-man_ nige, I have a similar thing on mind, but with a plot twist. Can you elaborate on what resources do you have?
Maybe we can cooperate.
nige so a bit like Rosetta meets StackOverflow
yes - defn up for cooperating
this proposal is for a TPF sponsored site - so they have some resource to offer (altho limited) 10:35
so it would be a community effort - and any advertising revenue can go to the TPF for grants and further development 10:36
Altai-man_ nige, I plan to write up a proposal after $dayjob today. It will require people willing to write content more than anything else, though.
nige OK - cool - I think some coding solutions will need some explanation too 10:37
oddp Altai-man_: well, take the slurp method signature here: `multi method slurp(IO::Path:D: :$bin, :$enc)`. I would expect to see a warning if I pass in .slurp(foo => "baz).
nige so the crucial bit - as far as playing the google loop goes - is to make sure the user's search need is satisfied 10:38
oddp At least coming from other langs with named keyword args.
nige so the search trails are successful from Google's perspective
Altai-man_ m: slurp 'foo', :r; 10:39
camelia Unexpected named argument 'r' passed
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Altai-man_ m: slurp 'foo', :foo;
camelia Unexpected named argument 'foo' passed
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Altai-man_ oddp, I think this particular (for "slurp") case was changed on master.
So once 2020.06 is shipped, you can consider it done. :)
nige importantly the site needs to satisfy the users search query - ideally in one go 10:40
oddp Oh, okay, interesting. Thanks!
nige so If I'm looking for 'code to parse a CSV file' - ideally I can use the code by cutting-and-pasting or with a special 'use' statement 10:41
which brings me to why I'm here ...
the META6.JSON file - provides lots of metadata etc (dependencies, versions etc, licence) 10:42
it would be cool is the 'use' statement - could source directly from the coding solutions provided on the site 10:43
use 'answer' 123;
and the code could be integrated at compile time into the program 10:44
123 - could also be a hashcode for the META6.json file 10:45
would be interested to hear feedback on this? do you think it could work? 10:47
Altai-man_ This calls for so many security problems and implications. Even more, it makes software not installable when there is no net available (which is not that uncommon as we can think). 10:49
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nige yes - in the GoLang world - they often use "go get somecode/somewhere.go" 10:57
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nige the hashing the meta6.json file will help with the ensuring the integrity of the downloaded thing 10:58
of course if they just found the answer then their internet connection is live
so it's a balancing act - but would like to tip it towards convenience (for the sake of the Google loop and our users) 11:00
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nige nine, would be interested to hear your thoughts on how to - use remote 'somecode.site/with -reassuring/hashcode/jyhery78' - and how this could work with pre-compilation etc? 11:20
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Geth whateverable/master: 4 commits pushed by (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ 11:28
whateverable: c5667c0af0 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | lib/Whateverable/Bits.pm6
Use gather again in limited-join (oops)

I tried to refactor it in 17ec364078322 but half way through realized that it's not going to make it better. Still, I somehow committed the half-refactored version. It should be back to normal now.
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Geth ake: 720c250c2a | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | META6.json
Fix source-url

It's just `ake` now.
ecosystem: 1fb91a1c10 | (Aleks-Daniel Jakimenko-Aleksejev)++ | META.list
Update ake url
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woolfy Hi tadzik, thank you for your thoughtful blog! <3 13:07
I hope you don't mind, I posted it on my Facebook: www.facebook.com/wgavdijk/posts/32...1288644699
Hugz, Wendy 13:08
lizmat oops, mischan :-)
woolfy Oh sorry, I thought I pm-ed tadzik... sorry...
lizmat nonetheless, tadzik++ blog.tadzik.net/first-they-came-fo...-gays.html 13:09
tadzik woolfy: no, I don't mind :) 13:16
woolfy tadzik : thank you, and good luck on your actions! 13:17
nine nige: in my experience it's better to advertise where your target audience is. Creating a new place where you need to pull people to, so you can sell them your product is a hard detour. 13:18
nige: Frankly, I'm not fond of golang's approach to modules, at all. It creates a dependency on that code site (i.e. Github) and if they disappear or just change their URI layout all your software will be broken. 13:19
nige: the simplicity also comes at a cost: you either depend on unstable, unversioned code when you point at a repo or on an outdated version with possible security or stability issues when you depend on a commit. 13:20
It's all fun and game when you just want to create a mass of code but it will become a mess in the much longer period where it's about maintenance. E.g. yes, there's gigatons of Javascript code out there but I wouldn't bet the company on any of it. 13:22
Precicely stated dependencies enabled by git's distributed nature are a perfect excuse to ignore backwards compatibility and break things. This certainly helps with creating and evolving fast but what if the maintainer is no longer able to keep up? 13:24
Our software at work depends on countless Perl modules. Some of them haven't seen a maintainer in a decade, but they still work and do their job. 13:25
The technical side is completely different. It should be rather simple to implement code loading from web resources including precompilation and everything. In fact I could think of a couple of different approaches. 13:26
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ShimmerFairy Just look at how C++ libraries have on average given up on thinking about ABI compatibility and how annoying the fallout from that is. 13:30
nige hi nine 13:41
all good points -^ 13:42
and yes - I realise Go URL dependencies come with downsides
I suppose the ultimate product I'm trying to sell here is Raku - and going to where the market is means getting into the google loop as people look to solve their coding problems 13:43
so that google can discover the association between: coding problem -> solution 13:44
where solution = raku/perl code 13:45
Altai-man_ thinks creating a really nice cookbook out of old examples repo (up to 11) will serve the same purpose without all the code by url loading tricks
nige yes - that's a good point too -^
I was planning to seed the initial site with example from the PLEAC website 13:46
Altai-man_ nine, can you wait a day for the proposal I mentioned?
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nige nine - on the loading dependency problems you mention - at least Raku provides the ability to pin modules by author and version 13:49
just focussing on the technical side ... how could you load a remote module at compile time ...and have it play nicely with pre-compilation etc? 13:51
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nige it would be nice to have some hash coding - to provide some trust etc .. 13:53
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nige the code could be copied to a local repo - so that helps with the dependency on a third party site / author etc - for code maintenance 13:55
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nine Altai-man_: sure. I forgot to write down an important thought I had: the only thing worse than inefficient advertising (which I warned about) is no advertising. So please don't let me keep you from trying things! 14:00
nige: you could write a module that does everything in an EXPORT sub. Or you could go one step further and write a CompUnit::Repository implementation. I'd go for the latter as it gives you more control and will make adding precompilation easier. 14:02
nige: there are several specialized CompUnit::Repository implementations in rakudo. They should give you some ideas. 14:03
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nige ok cool - thanks 14:04
and for the user side of the code - where they want to 'import/use' the solution they found on the website 14:05
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Xliff \o 14:06
tellable6 2020-06-14T10:35:02Z #raku-dev <AlexDaniel> Xliff: I have to admit you were right, the commit SHAs need to be links, otherwise blin output pasted as a gist kinda sucks
Xliff AlexDaniel: Hehehehe
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Xliff AlexDaniel: Do you need another PR? 14:07
nige hmm - it's tricky - ideally I'd like the user to include the solution with a one-liner 14:08
moritz fights a two-front war with cro and docker 14:10
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Altai-man_ Xliff, commit links were addressed by mighty AlexDaniel++ already, I think. 14:12
nige use remote-code 'codesolvr.com/dfjgwx'; # inside module comes with complications 14:13
maybe it's better to bootstrap the solution in the users environment with a loading script 14:14
shell> codesolvr get dfjgwx
this way it can be more polyglot when it comes to install etc 14:15
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El_Che nige: 12:43 < nige> use 'answer' 123 <== that sounds extremely dangerous and not even because of evil intent 14:19
nige: go get intalls released libraries and modules, not ad hoc part of a solution 14:20
nige yeah - was just a quick example - use 'answer' 123
El_Che nine: go fixed the problem you metioned by adding a write-once proxy. Hosted at google it isn't supposed to go down. And company project "vendor"the dependencies, meaning the code for the dependencies is in the same repo as you app so you can always build 14:22
nige OK - I prefer the second approach - where the site comes with an optional installer script to install the code locally and get the solution in place
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nige interesting -^ 14:23
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El_Che a code generator 14:24
that could work 14:27
.oO(There aren't many websites that can rely on not intending to be down)
El_Che google has a great record 14:28
(and the resources for that)
nine And a great record of ending services for users when they were no longer interested in them anymore
El_Che nine: oh yes, been bitten many times by that :) 14:29
"vendoring" the solutions in the application repo would solve the runtime problem though 14:30
nige by that I take it you mean - the solution user gets their own local copy which they maintain etc 14:32
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El_Che yes, they integrate it making sure it's safe and complete 14:33
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El_Che maybe the same tool could allow to upload revised solutions 14:33
that can be upvoted
nige yes - the tool itself could help with the upvoting stats (subject to voting limits) 14:34
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nige and going the other way the tool could help with submissions 14:36
El_Che yes, that what I mean
you dowloand the solution, make it better, upload the proposal 14:37
extra points for good comments
nige nice - I like that haha
karma++ for your comments
El_Che often solutions are meant to explain stuff or offer a quick and dirty solution 14:38
e.g. for go code, error checking is omitted (a no-no)
nige shell> codesolver push dfjgwx friendly-solution.raku
El_Che the Stackoverflow format emcourages that, so you can qucikly skim the solution
Xliff m: use NativeCall; my $g-param-spec-types; $c-param-spec-types := cglobal('gobject-2.0', 'g_param_spec_types', CArray[GType]) 14:39
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '$c-param-spec-types' is not declared. Did you mean '$g-param-spec-types'?
at <tmp>:1
------> 3use NativeCall; my $g-param-spec-types; 7⏏5$c-param-spec-types := cglobal('gobject-
El_Che here the better solution would be production ready, wit good comments and ideally with a leading comment that explains the solution on a higher level
Xliff m: use NativeCall; my $g-param-spec-types; $\g-param-spec-types := cglobal('gobject-2.0', 'g_param_spec_types', CArray[GType])
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
at <tmp>:1
------> 3e NativeCall; my $g-param-spec-types; $\7⏏5g-param-spec-types := cglobal('gobject-2
Xliff m: use NativeCall; my $g-param-spec-types; $g-param-spec-types := cglobal('gobject-2.0', 'g_param_spec_types', CArray[GType])
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Undeclared name:
GType used at line 1
nige yes - that's a good point - reading Go code can get a bit depressing the happy path is sometimes buried in code like my dad wants me to code
Xliff m: use NativeCall; my $g-param-spec-types; $g-param-spec-types := cglobal('gobject-2.0', 'g_param_spec_types', CArray[uint64])
camelia ( no output )
Xliff m: use NativeCall; our $g-param-spec-types; $g-param-spec-types := cglobal('gobject-2.0', 'g_param_spec_types', CArray[uint64]) 14:41
camelia ( no output )
Xliff m: use NativeCall; our $g-param-spec-types is export; $g-param-spec-types := cglobal('gobject-2.0', 'g_param_spec_types', CArray[uint64])
camelia ( no output )
Xliff m: use NativeCall; our $g-param-spec-types is export; $g-param-spec-types := cglobal('gobject-2.0', 'g_param_spec_types', CArray[uint64]); say $g-param-spec-types[$_] for ^23;
camelia Cannot locate native library 'libgobject-2.0.so': libgobject-2.0.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
in block at /home/camelia/rakudo-m-inst-2/share/perl6/core/sources/947BDAB9F96E0E5FCCB383124F923A6BF6F8D76B (NativeCall…
nige fortunately raku code is liberated from the error handling style of Go - and the happy path is clearer
more O(fun) just there 14:42
El_Che I am not sure. I am not that fond of exceptions
good that you can choose in Raku
nige yes - and exceptions can be handled out of band with CATCH phaser 14:43
El_Che the point of that handling errors right away make it easier to think about them
not like in java when you get exceptions fron 10 levels down 14:44
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nige yes - not an easy one - there are tradeoffs - depends on the code etc - at least Raku let's you flexibly handle it 14:45
code for the SpaceX airlock will look different to slurping a README.txt ;-) 14:47
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El_Che the SpaceXI code will be full of files wit ah "#genrated by rakusolves.org" comments :) 14:48
nige :)
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ShimmerFairy Systems without exceptions make "ignore it, it's fine" the default action, and I personally think that's a really lousy approach to error conditions. 14:52
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El_Che ShimmerFairy: thatś not the mindset in go, rather the contrary 14:53
moritz well, there are other options too, like erlang/OTPs processes and process supervisors
El_Che handle just after the error, verbosely :)
foo, err := doSomething() 14:54
ShimmerFairy yeah, and it's a big part of why Go is pretty much the only language I legitimately, seriously despise. (As opposed to just making jokes about a language.)
El_Che if err != nil { ... }
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ShimmerFairy moritz: Yeah, I'm not saying exceptions are the only/best solution, just that error codes are the worst :) 14:55
El_Che it's a design decision and like nige commented, there are up and downsides
moritz: that sounds interesting
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moritz El_Che: it does. I'm not too familiar with it, always wanted to learn a bit more about it, but found the Erlang syntax strangely off-putting 14:57
might try again with Elixir as the language
El_Che the ruby-flavour version :) 14:58
Xliff Hmmm.... 15:03
Getting some weird results with NativeCall and cglobal usage.
May have to bug that, later. It makes no sense.
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raku-bridge <Rustem B.> how can i easily generate template module? 15:36
<Rustem B.> (also hello)
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sena_kun Hi. You can use e.g. App::Mi6 module to help with authoring. There is also e.g. github.com/JJ/raku-dist-template <- this nice template if you don't want tools. 15:57
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raku-bridge <Rustem B.> oh, thx 16:10
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nine El_Che: just because exceptions make it possible to handle them further up the callstack doesn't mean that they mandate doing so. You can handle exceptions right where they occur just fine. 16:16
Go makes handling errors tedious and relies entirely on tools telling people to behave. I've no idea how they thought this was good design. 16:18
moritz it's the mindset of old C programmers
"people forget handling errors? We'll tell them through the compiler when they forget!"
nine I'd guess they just avoided dealing with the hard problems of implementing exceptions in threaded programs that way. 16:20
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suman Is there a command to create a file in raku? 16:31
just like mkdir to create a directory
timotimo just open and close it, if there is no "touch" method
ShimmerFairy nine: I have a feeling it's because companies like Google disallow exceptions in C++, so when you're asked to make a language, you go "exceptions are icky and we do just fine without them!" 16:34
(and Go does have a very basic kind of exception handling nowadays, because turns out it really is a nice thing to have)
moritz orly? who wudda thought 16:35
timotimo is that about defer/rescue?
ShimmerFairy I forget what it was called, lemme see if I can find out quickly. 16:36
tadzik they had panic/recover I think?
El_Che %w? wrapping?
ShimmerFairy yeah, I think it's panic/recover 16:37
El_Che nine: of course you can use try-catch, but that's even more verbose than the "if err != nil" thing
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timotimo OK not sure where i got rescue from, but defer is in go 16:38
tadzik Rust makes it quite nice with its ? suffix
ShimmerFairy The beauty of try/catch is that you can wrap an entire block of code in one exception handler. If five calls in a function can throw a "BadFileSystem" error, it's nice that you only have to write the check once. 16:39
timotimo quick question, do we do anything with "buildid" in our CI infrastructure and/or packaging?
raku-bridge <Vendethiel> Ruby is clearly superior, with throw/catch AND raise/rescue! :-P 16:48
timotimo panic / soothe
meltdown / jettison 16:49
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ShimmerFairy crash / burn (wait) 16:51
suman This is example C code 16:52
#include <math.h>
timotimo please don't paste it into irc
use a pasting service like gist or nopaste or 0bin or whatever you prefer 16:53
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timotimo stackoverflow.com/questions/417432...compute-it - interesting, looks like i had no clue what a buildid is actually meant to be 16:54
suman pastebin.com/yVZVBYLd 16:56
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suman Please have a look here 16:56
How to stop (Mu) from appearing in void function? 16:57
timotimo suman: you are printing the return value of your custom() call, it's a void function so it returns nothing, which in raku's NativeCall is represented as the Mu type object
so just throw out the "say"
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suman timotimo Oh I see 17:00
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! WebService::TMDB (0.1.0) by 03CIAVASH 19:04
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nine timotimo: oh, so buildid is the same as our $*PERL.compiler.id 19:59
timotimo maybe, though we probably also want to include moarvm's "identity" in it 20:04
if the idea is "grab the buildid and you can get to the exact source used to make this binary"
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