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Set by ChanServ on 14 October 2019.
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vrurg weekly: www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMjZ3nBcGWs 01:44
notable6 vrurg, Noted! (weekly)
tellable6 2020-06-25T14:56:18Z #raku <Xliff> vrurg Was R#3075 ever fixed? Looks like both it and R#3284 are still open
linkable6 R#3075 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/3075 [precompilation] Conflicting use statement does not produce an error, but fails dynamic compilation.
R#3284 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/pull/3284 [precompilation] Fix Stash'es clashing after deserialization
vrurg I'm gonna have two talk in a row tomorrow. To those who's not attending the conference, they're gonna be streamed on www.youtube.com/yapcna. The first talk starts 11:00 EDT or 15:00 UTC. 01:46
.tell Xliff the short answer about R#3075 – no, not fixed. Briefly, I was sure my fix is causing a SIGSEGV, but later I realized that it could have been a result of missing gtk libs because they were not in a path accessible to rakudo. Don't have time to get back to it though, but always remember about the problem. 01:49
linkable6 R#3075 [open]: github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/3075 [precompilation] Conflicting use statement does not produce an error, but fails dynamic compilation.
tellable6 vrurg, I'll pass your message to Xliff
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guifa is trying to rush to finish up his slides for tomorrow 03:08
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JJMerelo Just archived github.com/raku-community-modules/perl6-ioc/ 10:03
There are now more than 100 modules in that organization, we need to trim it down a bit. In this case, the one it was forked from is being actively developed, and it hadn't been released. 10:04
I am going to directly delete github.com/raku-community-modules/...vice-HazIP It's a fork which is 25 commits behind master. 10:05
AlexDaniel sure 10:07
JJMerelo Also deleted this one raku-community-modules/Perl6-Math-Quaternion 10:08
Same thing, 11 commits behind the original one, and 1 commit ahead... with conflicts. So no use for it. 10:09
BTW, I opened a discussion in the raku-community-modules secret team organization
lizmat weekly datakinds.github.io/2020/06/25/exp...-itertools
JJMerelo If you got a notification, please react to it. 10:10
raku-community-modules/perl6-Test-Class also deleted. Only one commit, not even a META6.json. This is one of a set of repos apparently by autarch 10:15
.seen autarch
tellable6 JJMerelo, I saw autarch 2020-05-10T01:56:06Z in #raku: <autarch> There you go
JJMerelo .tell autarch there are a bunch of repos that were apparently originally yours in the raku-community-modules organization. I'm deleting those that were not released, and putting notices on others. But could you get them back? It would probably be the best thing. 10:17
tellable6 JJMerelo, I'll pass your message to autarch
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nige weekly www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS_IS_omAV8 10:34
I mentioned this idea a little while ago in the channel. Here is a recent lightning talk about it from the conference in the cloud (cic) 10:35
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gfldex raku: my &b = <-> $a { } 11:04
evalable6
gfldex how do we call the "<->" in this case? 11:05
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grondilu Yeasterday I learned about browsix. Interesting project. Could be a possible way to port raku on the web. 11:19
*Yesterday
appart from the js port, that is. 11:20
*apart
lizmat grondilu: link? 11:21
grondilu browsix.org/
lizmat nige: now that Perl 7 is announced, and both communities will be trying to get new mindshare by improving the language, I don't think there it will make sense to make a website that will do both Perl and Raku 11:22
so, I applaud the idea, it's just that I think it should just be about Raku
grondilu Am I correct in assuming that all it would take would be to compile Moar ? Since rakudo eventually is compiled into MoarVM binary code ?
lizmat just re-read xdg.me/blog/perl-5-and-perl-6-are-...l-enemies/ in light of the Perl 7 announcement
grondilu: at a quick glance, it looks like a nice way to get a VM that runs in the browser 11:23
jnthn gfldex: In the grammar both -> and <-> are called lambda, and I'd probably call the latter "rw lambda" or some such 11:25
gfldex "rw pointy block" seams short yet descriptive 11:26
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jnthn That also works 11:33
Though I tend to think of the pointy block as the whole construct
Which, to be fair, is what we normally want to talk about anyway... :) 11:34
gfldex lolibloggedalittle: gfldex.wordpress.com/2020/06/26/we-can-do-more/ 11:39
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El_Che lizmat: agreed, the perl7 transition will be like a porcelain shop. The least useful is that the proverbial elephant enters the roon :) 11:48
nige lizmat, I understand this idea - there are some attractions to have a language-specific site 11:50
as the example in the video showed unfortunately raku doesn't appear in the search results at all 11:51
having a polyglot site is important for attracting developers from other languages
including Perl ;-) 11:52
lizmat yeah, but that is basically SEO squatting
and that's what we've been accused of for many years
nige squatting has negative connotations - it's simply providing solutions to problems 11:53
there is a darwinian effect that will kick in
El_Che nige: "look how better the solution is in raku thant in old-school perl" 11:54
nige and one that raku should be confident about - something that is really clear on rosettacode (for example)
lizmat nige: what El_Che said
nige sometimes this is going to be true
Altai-man_ El_Che, "look how magnitudes order slow raku solution is compared to old-school perl" 11:55
Though I do agree there should be more Raku-only resources, which improves SEO.
El_Che Altai-man_: people are nowdays comparing to go, rust and the like. If you're lucky JS
so, there is no price in the dynamic languages speed race 11:56
Altai-man_ And for "raku in web" there is already perl6.github.io/6pad/ which can be improved.
nige if there is some contention between different solutions - this is not necessarily a problem 11:57
it will highlight the situations where one solution is preferred over another for example 11:58
- something which helps solve the problem
which ranks better on Google etc
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nige later the site could be split into sub domains: perl7.srcpans.org - raku.srcpans.org - java.srcpans.org 12:00
this is a would-like-to-have-problem .... and far away from the MVP I'm proposing here
lizmat hmmm.. feels to me you're conflating the rosetta code idea with SEO squatting :-) 12:01
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Math::Combinatorics (0.0.1) by 03ELCARO 12:02
nige actually many of the examples of rosettacode don't solve day-to-day programming problems 12:03
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elcaro * Hooray * 12:03
lizmat elcaro++
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elcaro haha, remember that Pick and Choose blog "series" i wrote 2 years ago 12:03
nige so I only mention rosettacode to highlight the polyglot nature of what I'm proposing
elcaro Or maybe it was only a year, I don't remember... feels like forever 12:04
I realised I don't have time to work on this thing to get it to where I want it, so I may as well release it now
lizmat elcaro: link ?
elcaro 0racle.info/articles/pick_and_choose_part1
sena_kun elcaro, make sure it reflects new name then. :) 12:05
elcaro I will try to knock out a quick blog post, and maybe it can go in the weekly
Yeah, old blog post should be updated to point to my new repo. I figured I'd add the `Math::` prefix for... reasons
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elcaro I was spurred on by the post about Itertools. The multicombinations code they used is subtly wrong 12:07
doing it correctly with a one liner is difficult, so releasing the module as-is makes it easier for people who want a simple multicombinations function with decent performance 12:08
lizmat: I think I originally modelled my anonymous Seq's (ie. Seq.new: class :: does Iterator { ... }) on some iterators you were writing in the core 12:09
but if memory serves, I think you may have mentioned at one stage that doing iterators like this is a little less performant 12:10
than....something else, i can't remember
like maybe definining a named clas, and calling `new` on it was better than creating an anonymous seq each time. Does that make sense, or am i mis-remembering? 12:11
lizmat using anonymous classes appears to be a performance issue
jnthn ^^ is that still the case? 12:12
elcaro I know CPAN is very specific about updates. If I just want to update the readme, does that require a version bump? 12:17
jnthn lizmat: Yes, there's still some lexical capture issues around doing that
lizmat: Though that may well get a revisit during my current work
El_Che elcaro: that sounds like best preactice to me whatever release system you use
lizmat elcaro: yes, even just a copyright update 12:18
El_Che 0.1.0 -> 0.1.1 :)
elcaro cool, yeah I will just bump minor ver 12:26
Whipping up a blog post first
El_Che i feels more like a revision
elcaro erm.. that's what I mean. Don't mind me, I'm not a real developer... I just play one on the Internet :D 12:29
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jdv79 ah ha! steve lembark's mem leaks might be similar to mine. its not just me. 12:37
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cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Math::Combinatorics (0.0.2) by 03ELCARO 12:55
elcaro short and sweet: 0racle.info/articles/pick_and_choose_part_n
cpan-raku New module released to CPAN! Math::Combinatorics (0.0.3) by 03ELCARO 13:18
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oddp Looking good Thanks for sharing! 13:43
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guifa When I use zef install for one of my modules, it’s installing an older version. Is there just a lag for it picking up newer versions or is there something I need to do to trigger it catching the newer version? 15:50
moritz was the module uploaded to PAUSE/cpan? 15:51
there's def. a lag there
guifa moritz: I’m just using github right now 15:52
Altai-man_ guifa, zef update? 15:53
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guifa Altai-man_++ 15:57
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softmoth stoned75, I've opened an issue for Github misclassifying Perl files as Raku: github.com/github/linguist/issues/4902 16:12
I don't know who here did the original Linguist additions for Raku. It might be good to notify them if they're still active. sena_kun, do you happen to know? 16:13
sena_kun softmoth, no idea, but can't we look up commit logs? 16:14
softmoth Thanks, stoned75++, for spotting it.
yes, of course
sena_kun softmoth, I don't know how lingust structured, if you know where the definitions are, you can just git blame this file and see who added them. 16:15
softmoth I tracked it down: github.com/github/linguist/commit/...226cc47757 16:22
hoelzro, You may want to know about github.com/github/linguist/issues/4902 "Some Perl files are misclassified as Raku" (since you committed the Perl6 heuristic 6 years ago) 16:23
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sena_kun softmoth, if you have enough time and desire, you can write a patch and PR it. 16:34
softmoth, it will resolve the issue faster and linguist folks won't have to think about something which may sound like rather low-priority things to them.
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jnthn vrurg++ # nice talks 16:40
[Coke] is sad he's missed all the talks at the conference 16:42
vrurg jnthn: Thanks. Hope it wasn't too boring. :) 16:43
jnthn I wasn't bored :) 16:44
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jnthn Though things using cas are quite a nice brain workout on a Friday afternoon :P 16:44
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lizmat vrurg: I wonder whether switching around the if foo !=== bar { not equal } else { equal } to: 16:46
if foo === bar { equal } else { notequal }
would help
!=== is a meta-op, which may imply a difference from just ===
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vrurg lizmat: I was in such a hurry that it was easier to put !=== in palce than to edit the whole `if`. :) 16:50
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timotimo comma should have (otherwise get) a "flip if and else branches" 16:54
vrurg timotimo: +++++++ if/unless switch too, perhaps. 16:55
timotimo right, especially since you're not allowed to put an else on an unless 16:56
or a without
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jdv79 be neat if comma wasnt necessary to do all neat things 17:07
timotimo well, i'm biased, as i sometimes get paid to add neat things to comma 17:09
lizmat jdv79: then by all means, take Damian's code and make sure vim can as well :-)
timotimo i mean i always get paid when i add neat things to comma
alternatively: i only add neat things to comma when i get paid :D
tadzik Damian not using vim for something is one helluva recommendation
tadzik has yet to watch the talk 17:10
jdv79 lizmat: maybe:)
requiring a particular ide feels unperlish to me 17:11
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jdv79 wonder if damian uses comma outside of his talk... 17:11
jnthn Who is requiring it?
I mean, I can write Java in vim too (and have in the past), nobody requires me to use IntelliJ. It just offers some benefits. 17:12
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lizmat jdv79: during his talk, he says that he's using it for his Raku module programming 17:12
tadzik a LSP server for raku would be sweet 17:13
melezhik .tell JJMerelo I'd like to hear your thoughts on my last update on external dependencies checks, is it what you want?
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to JJMerelo
jdv79 require is a strong word. i was referring to the log timeline stuff i guess.
tadzik but for now the cool stuff is in Comma, and that's cool too :)
jdv79 lizmat: ah. i only saw part of it
ShimmerFairy I poked at comma once, but its highlighting of grammar rules was somehow much worse than emacs', so I quickly stopped poking it. 17:14
melezhik basically I have all minimal toolset to handle native deps from META with Sparrow,
timotimo oh, a propos vim: is there something to make wrangling argument lists easier?
melezhik it works for CentOS right now, it's easy to support other Linuxes too
jnthn jdv79: The Log::Timeline protocol is open for anybody else to write stuff to work against it.
lizmat afk for a few hours% 17:15
jdv79 i get it. thats why i said neat;)
jnthn ShimmerFairy: Interesting, do you remember any specifics?
jdv79 dodging the vim/emacs stuff with comma was a deft move:) 17:16
jnthn ShimmerFairy: Was it "got things wrong" or more a case of not liking the default color schemes?
ShimmerFairy No, I just remember that the code below a certain point of the Grammar was completely mishighlighted. I can do a quick check again to see if I can find it back.
jnthn ShimmerFairy: Uff, that sounds like something we'd want to fix, if we didn't get to it already 17:17
jdv79 but i am not like most people i guess. i dont understand why repls and "ide"s exist;) 17:18
ShimmerFairy jdv79: I use emacs but almost none of the features that make it IDE-esque; for that I always tab over to Konsole :P
[Coke] I am a bad vim user, I'm not even taking advantage of the stuff it *does* do. Still pretending like it's the same editor I learned on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Terminal_System 17:20
jdv79 haha
ShimmerFairy Apparently the last version of Comma I touched was 2019.10, so yeah, a few months ago :) 17:21
sena_kun ShimmerFairy, I think jnthn is rather skilled on resolving this type of bugs, so it isn't really an issue anymore once it is reported. ;)
[Coke] I do like comma and the syntax highlighting though. I use it more than vim to edit Raku. 17:23
ShimmerFairy Apparently Comma doesn't know about $¢, and complains about non-ASCII identifiers (which I personally think is silly considering it's Raku, but I get it)
sena_kun ShimmerFairy, great thing we fixed this warning in 2020.06 which is released today. :) 17:25
ShimmerFairy that's not a community release, is it? 17:26
sena_kun Nope. 17:27
jnthn Home time o/
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ShimmerFairy Ooh, also noticed that Comma thinks $a is undeclared in code like { say $^a * $a } 17:29
gfldex raku: sub s { $^a + $^b }; &s.signature.say 17:31
evalable6 ($a, $b)
gfldex this is not in /type/Signature in the docs
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ShimmerFairy m: sub s() { $^a + $^b }; say &s.signature 17:32
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Placeholder variable '$^a' cannot override existing signature
at <tmp>:1
------> 3sub7⏏5 s() { $^a + $^b }; say &s.signature
ShimmerFairy gfldex: that's because leaving out the parens means you're not supplying a signature, so I guess that means it's a free-for-all (IIRC it was meant to support Perl 5 migrators who are really attached to @_) 17:33
gfldex ShimmerFairy: Signature supports introspection. So it has to be documented that you can have a signature, even if that Signature is provided by the compiler. 17:35
ShimmerFairy oh yeah, sure, I'm just explaining why you're allowed to use $^a there 17:36
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ShimmerFairy .tell jnthn I couldn't find a problem in the code I tried with Comma months ago, so either the highlighting was a freak error or has since been fixed (or my code changed the problem area since then). 17:39
tellable6 ShimmerFairy, I'll pass your message to jnthn
raku-bridge <tmtvl> Speaking of Emacs, I should really finish the Texas op -> Unicode converter one of these days... 17:43
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sena_kun ShimmerFairy, I just fixed the $^a bug, thanks for your report! 17:46
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ShimmerFairy no problem! 17:47
jdv79 when i have to drop to nano or gedit or whatever cause whatever i realize why i like using vi(m) 99% of the time. 17:49
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timotimo was there anything for comma list editing? 17:58
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timotimo er, not in comma, in vim i mean 18:04
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timotimo lists delimited by commas, and i guess of course also other kinds of stuff for other kinds of lists? 18:04
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timotimo 3 watching now 18:58
•Started streaming 64 seconds ago
looks like jnthn's talk is in 1.5 hours 18:59
jdv79 mark's talking... 19:03
oh, you're somewhere else 19:04
timotimo aye 19:05
until just now i didn't realize there were two tracks
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SmokeMachine guifa: do you suggest using Fluent on Exception messages? 19:13
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Xliff \o 19:22
tellable6 2020-06-25T14:57:18Z #raku <vrurg> Xliff: no. I'm having a lightning talk soon, will elaborate later.
hey Xliff, you have a message: gist.github.com/43f3be636ad2ac11ee...49093390a5
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El_Che too busy to follow the raku talks today 19:32
some pointers?
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timotimo (char *)0x7ffff00c5180 19:37
jast thanks to timotimo I have finally achieved enlightenment 19:40
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timotimo (it was a pointer allocated inside MVM_spesh_dump, so it was helpful in my enlightenment at least) 19:44
nice, the preferred powershell testing framework is called "pester"? 19:45
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softmoth El_Che, It looks like the conference is available on the yapcna YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/yapcna 19:48
El_Che, And the Raku-specific talks are called out by lizmat++ in RakudoWeekly: rakudoweekly.blog/2020/05/18/2020-...-upgraded/ 19:49
MilkmanDan, your nick brings back some good memories. I haven't thought of that comic in ages. :-) 19:52
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softmoth Does anyone know how to access &*USAGE from another module? I have lib/Rakudoc/CMD.rakudoc that defines proto MAIN() and friends. I can call &*USAGE() from there. But in bin/rakudoc where I use Rakudoc::CMD, &*USAGE is not found, and &*Rakudoc::CMD::USAGE isn't allowed. 19:56
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softmoth I can organize things another way, but I wanted to put my main documentation Pod in bin/rakudoc, and call both &*USAGE and Pod::To::Text($=pod) in --help there. Anyways, I'm just curious. 20:00
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timotimo "how to drive your own usb device" is actually surprisingly relevant at the moment 20:01
to me personally 20:02
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timotimo gasp libusb with NativeCall 20:10
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jdv79 what is happening in the red chan on zoom 20:17
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timotimo i have no idea, i'm not on zoom 20:18
vrurg jdv79: looks like lightning session preparation. 20:21
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timotimo i think the keynote is up next in ~7 minutes 20:23
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jdv79 oh i see jnthn. nice. 20:27
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jdv79 can anyone hear that? 20:32
timotimo oh no, there's no sound?
jdv79 no!
timotimo i assume jnthn is being made aware of the problem as we speak
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timotimo cool 20:33
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lizmat www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-U1lv9SU_w # has sound for me 20:39
timotimo yeah it got sound and was then restarted from the beginning 20:40
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El_Che softmoth: thx 20:48
leont Almost forgot about jnthn's talk :-o 20:49
El_Che is it the same (great) talk jnthn gave rencently? 20:50
softmoth El_Che, It's related, but different content. 20:51
timotimo after all there has been a bit of progress on RakuAST since then
El_Che something to watch then 20:52
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jdv79 is this new bits? 21:10
lizmat yes
jdv79 cool
21:17 ufobat_ left
leont It sounds pretty good 21:20
softmoth A very Worthy keynote, jnthn++! 21:21
jdv79 very nice!
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guifa SmokeMachine: esp if you figure it’ll be user-facing, I thin it could be useful 21:31
jnthn++
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timotimo well done jonathan-sama 21:32
jonathan-sensei :)
MasterDuke jnthn++, vrurg++ (all i've watched so far)
lizmat jnthn++
vrurg jnthn++ Fan.Tas.Tic.! :) 21:33
guifa also thinks he found a weird bug in zef :-( having to disable tests on one of the tokens so I can up the new module versions to go with the talk 21:35
timotimo i liked the lightning talk about webmention and the "whim" tool 21:39
needs to be stolen for raku
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timotimo i would find it amusing if there were an additional zoom user called "The Bell" / "The Gong" / a fitting emoji 21:57
guifa timotimo: that should be done for future editions 22:00
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softmoth BTW, the USAGE issue I was having seems to be fixed if I use `put $*USAGE` instead of `&*USAGE`. I'm not sure what I was going off of before, but I think I have it sorted now. 22:39
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