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guifa2 notagoodidea: probably TensorFlow but that project is still a ways off 00:25
bigdata Why is tensorflow the new hotness? 00:26
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guifa2 As with many things, massive support from a massive company probably lol 00:55
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Xliff Does tensorflow have a C API? 01:53
Answer: yes... it does
guifa2 Yeah, and they recommend linking to that for any new bindings from what I cna see 02:02
I probably won't mess with it until after next summer — COVID put a stop to my archive visits, so gigantic pause on my ground truth data collection
Xliff guifa: Wanna collab on a Raku binding? 02:03
guifa2: Also... did you get a chance to look up that slang?
guifa2 Xliff not yet, sorry, I got massively distracted haha. About to eat dinner, and then I'll look at it 02:04
But always up for collaboration. 02:05
Xliff guifa2: LOL!
guifa2: OK. Well, let me know. I've done quite a few of these.
(language bindings)
Unfortunately, none I've released since I don't think default zef gives enough user feedback 02:06
Even with the new parallel precompiling, it will take a LONG time compared to most modules in the ecosystem.
BTW - Does anyone know of a good geo visualization tool for jupyter notebooks? 02:07
I'd like to be able to port one of the Python ones to Raku
guifa2 FWIW, when I run CLDR's preprocessor, it takes about 4 hours
And that's with me running it in four pieces, so really it's about a 16 hour process
Xliff Things like making decent heat maps and scatter plots on a map. 02:08
guifa2 (it's almost 100% because of the glacially slow XML, as opposed to Lib::XML module, that I used, though)
I'd love to get some good visualization libraries. Especially with a very extensive PDF module 02:09
(dwarren has been extremely productive on the latter)
melezhik .tel JRaspass I wonder how long does it take for raku.land to index a new version of a module, Sparky new version 0.30.0 is already seen on modules.raku.org ... 02:35
.tell JRaspass I wonder how long does it take for raku.land to index a new version of a module, Sparky new version 0.30.0 is already seen on modules.raku.org ...
tellable6 melezhik, I'll pass your message to JRaspass
JRaspass it takes me to run make ingest, i'm working on gitlab ci to run it periodically so the logs would be public 02:36
hah nice graphic, i shall have to have a think about the css - raku.land/cpan:MELEZHIK/Sparky 02:38
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melezhik JRaspass, thanks. you can take a look at bulma css framework, it's used in sparky ... 02:48
JRaspass its okay, i think i have a fix now, pushing
melezhik JRaspass mardown parser on raku.land is really nice ! 02:49
JRaspass that's all ruby :-P
commonmarker and rouge 02:50
melezhik oh, oh , I did not hear that :') and won't tell any one ...
JRaspass need to work out a csp policy since this is UG content, I wonder if anyone would be mad enough to embed a video in their markdown... 02:51
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melezhik ha-ha ))) 02:52
so, you're even ready for that ? ...
JRaspass atm its the wild west, anything in the markdown is allowed, i think its sane to restrict imgs to https and disallow everything else probably 02:53
melezhik yeah ...
JRaspass anyways it should look a little better now, its still a smidge too wide on mobile though, ta for the test case 02:54
guifa2 Xliff: so first thing that gets me a bit farther is switching to term from statement_control 02:55
that was one of the biggies that was throwing me off with binex 02:56
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guifa2 Xliff: second thing, make sure that the sub that you're calling is exported into the same scope 03:01
For some weird reason, it doesn't a namespaced sub (at least, I dunno how to export those correctly), so at the end of the EXPORT sub include a Map.new: '&new-name' => &new-name; 03:03
lastly, the xpath token needs to be $<xpathS>=.+?, else you'll gobble right past the closing | :-)
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Xliff Hummm... 03:38
guifa2 Once I did those changes, btw, it compiled and ran fine (with False True False as the three values) 03:42
Xliff So... term:sym?
guifa2 token term:sym<xpath> { <sym> '|' $<xpathS>=.+? '|' } 03:43
^^ what I used
Xliff Cool, thanks!
guifa2 obviously, if 'I' is a valid character in the path, you'll eventually want to figure out your quoting construct 03:44
Xliff Yeah. I know.
"Cannot find method 'has_compile_time_value' on object of type MQPMu" 03:45
guifa2 I think that was from the exported sub issue
Xliff Oh wow.
guifa2 so I changed your sub to
sub xpslang-xp (Str $a) { $a does RevAccept }
sub EXPORT() { …………… Map.new: '&xpslang-xp' => &xpslang-xp; } 03:46
and in the QAST::Op, used ':name<&xpslang-xp>,'
brilliant debugging thing I found for slangs — normal 'say' tends to bomb pretty gloriously BUT say $*ERR, "foo", does output, so you can, at the very least, figure out when an error is, even if you get a cryptic one 03:47
Xliff guifa2++
Did you do this in a repl?
guifa2 No... I inserted the stuff into my own binex file, but I can toss it in a gist for you 03:48
Xliff Still getting that error after changes.
guifa2: Please do.
guifa2 gist.github.com/alabamenhu/1b502c4...8e32e44938 03:50
Oh, I think also then $/.'make' had to change to $/.make 03:51
Xliff Still same. Weird.
guifa2 slang stuff is suuuuper finicky 03:52
Xliff Yeah. Was hoping it had gotten a little more user friendly.
guifa2 I just updated the gist 03:53
cut out all of the binex stuff
Try copying and pasting and see if it works?
Xliff ok. 03:55
Yeah. Works now. 03:56
guifa2 np. It's crazy because I literally just got it to work like two days ago
but mine is complex enough I think I'll still probably wait until I RakuAST 03:57
Xliff Yeah. Same here.
I'm trying to see if I can create something for LibXML
xpath literals so that you can do $node ~~ <xpath expr>
Instead of the other way around. 03:58
guifa2 ah nice
That should be fairly simple then
binex is already working just fine for me — but allowing someone to switch into a Raku block and interpolating variables is less than perfect because I can't actually compile the blocks except via EVAL at runtime, which doesn't run in the right context then. 04:00
Xliff Yeah. RakuAST for sure, then. 04:02
Wonder how much jnthn++ has left to do?
guifa2 Not sure. I know before he took a break he was estimating finishing it around now, so maybe summer? 04:03
I wish I knew more of what's left to be done and I'd dive in to help
ugh I dunno how much detail to go into for my FOSDEM talk. What are the things folks consider important in a high quality module with respect to how an end user uses them? 04:14
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Xliff guifa2: Hmmm,.... 04:35
guifa2: Intuitiveness (Ease of use). Good documentation. Code Hygiene?
guifa2 Intuitiveness is what I'm really looking at 04:45
basically, how do you bend Raku (from a module developer side of things) to do amazing things that feel virtually built in 04:46
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guifa2 a few of the initial things (before the how-to part) is optional parentheses so that subs, methods, and control statements can masquarade as each other fairly easily 04:47
and the fact that simple blocks are objects, you can quickly make, e.g. your own loop statement 04:48
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Xliff All good things. 04:49
Another: Try to keep to the OO methodology as much as possible. This applies more to interoperability with other languages like C than anything else. 04:50
If you keep everything to objects, it will fit easily into Raku.
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guifa2 Xliff take a look at this: 04:53
errr 04:54
I only half renamed to English
Xliff :)
Got an error in it.
Variable $loop-sub not declared
guifa2 tio.run/##ZZBBasMwEEX3PsUnhGI3sUk2...RcPNrBzHHw
Custom loop that exits with the number of times it was run. In vanilla Raku. 04:55
and of course, the fact that it's done with a sub and not a control statement means nothing to the end user
Xliff Yep. I like that.
elcaro guifa2: any reason for the dynamic var and custom exception? this seems to work fine 05:07
Xliff elcaro: The point was to not need "last" but something he could define on his own. 05:10
BBL! 05:13
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guifa2 elcaro ^^ what Xliff said. Although also because I didn't know that end worked outside in callee scopes too ^_^ 05:48
(dynamic value was needed because of scoping with the CATCH blocks) 05:49
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guifa2 hmm 05:59
so apparently back in the day inline/multiline comments were going to be #[ … ] or #( … )
I wonder why they were changed to include the backtick
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jmerelo releasable6: status 06:10
releasable6 jmerelo, Next release in ≈12 days and ≈12 hours. 1 blocker. Changelog for this release was not started yet
tellable6 2021-01-08T16:19:56Z #raku <[Coke]> jmerelo - good catch on your comment about the metamodel tests, it's probably a recent rakudo bug.
2021-01-08T16:36:48Z #raku <tony-o> jmerelo should be able to reset your password now
2021-01-08T22:21:39Z #raku <tony-o> jmerelo github.com/Raku/doc/pull/3771/comm...c8454bf76a
releasable6 jmerelo, Details: gist.github.com/6e310569d866068914...34f6590864
jmerelo .tell [Coke] thanks! 06:12
tellable6 jmerelo, I'll pass your message to [Coke]
jmerelo .tell tony-o thanks!
tellable6 jmerelo, I'll pass your message to tony-o
Geth doc: 70ac293f76 | (JJ Merelo)++ | 3 files
Eliminates travis, stoned++, closes #3777
linkable6 DOC#3777 [closed]: github.com/Raku/doc/issues/3777 [docs] We need to speed up tests or otherwise reduce dependence on Travis
Geth doc: 9f714bc01d | (JJ Merelo)++ | .github/workflows/test.yml
Qualify with paths
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guifa2 waves at jmerelo 06:42
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jmerelo Hey, guifa2 06:47
guifa2: I need to set up github actions for the ecosystem along this week so that your module can be published.
guifa2 Was going to ask if there was anything I can do to help with getting Travis back online
Happy to donate some cash if it's something that money can fix lol 06:48
jmerelo guifa2: there's a paid plan for Travis, but it's 69$ a month and it would only cement our dependency on it 06:49
guifa2 oh yikes, they don't have anything.... I dunno....between a free and XXX price?
jmerelo guifa2: plus we kind of feel a bit ripped off. So this is kind of a blackmail.
guifa2: they had 10k free credits for OSS, and we got 20k additional. But I naïvely though that was something that would be replenished in time. It was not. 06:50
guifa2 aah
jmerelo Anyway, I think it's a good thing to overhaul CI. We were burning minutes like there's no tomorrow. Not so long ago (until I started to deploy containers, and El_che started to create packages) people were compiling Raku every single CI run 06:51
guifa2 yikes 06:52
jmerelo That made no sense.
That's still done in Travis in nqp, btw. And possibly in the other CIs.
guifa2 I'm about to add another module to the ecosystem haha but I'll hold off until you get something set up 06:58
jmerelo guifa2: thanks :-)
guifa2: Remember you need to have your video for FOSDEM ready soonish 06:59
guifa2 Yeah been working on it
guifa2 points to irclog where he was talking to Xliff about it :-)
jmerelo guifa2: :-) great.
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guifa2 New module! 07:44
jmerelo guifa2: cool :-) 07:45
guifa2 (well, only semi new, it was hiding away in Intl::CLDR for a while, but now it's independent and retooled to work with the newest Intl::CLDR)
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jmerelo guifa2: cool anyway 07:48
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notagoodidea I have been looking at MAIN.pm6 in the rakudo source (core.c) and I am not sure to understand the why of this part of the regex matching for named arguments `([<-[0..9\.]> .*)` (github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/65a5...n.pm6#L96) 09:49
hum misquoted the part : `(<-[0..9\.]> .*) I understand the catch all part but what about the <-[0..9\.]> ? 09:50
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notandinus notagoodidea: i think '-' in <-[]> negates things in '[]' 09:54
tellable6 2021-01-08T22:44:02Z #raku <notagoodidea> notandinus another way to call USAGE with the empty parameters is to use proto in this fashion `proto MAIN (|) {unless so @*ARGS {say $*USAGE; exit;}; {*}}`
notandinus not sure, letme check
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MasterDuke yeah 09:57
notandinus docs.raku.org/language/regexes#ind...and_ranges
notagoodidea: i see, thanks 09:58
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notagoodidea notandinus: oh I see. 10:13
So it matches on everything but the first character must not be a number or a dot? 10:14
notandinus notagoodidea: yeah, that's what i understand 10:17
note that i don't know much about raku or regex things, might be wrong
m: say "hi" ~~ /<-[0..9]\.> .*/ 10:18
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Unable to parse expression in metachar:sym<assert>; couldn't find final '>' (corresponding starter was at line 1)
at <tmp>:1
------> 3say "hi" ~~ /<-[0..9]7⏏5\.> .*/
expecting any of:
notagoodidea m: say "hi" ~~ / <-[0..9\.]> .*/
camelia 「hi」
notagoodidea m: say "3" ~~ / <-[0..9\.]> .*/
camelia Nil
notagoodidea m: say "3=foo" ~~ / <-[0..9\.]> .*/ 10:19
camelia 「=foo」
notandinus m: say "4hi" ~~ / <-[0..9\.]> .*/
camelia 「hi」
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notagoodidea m: say "--3=foo" ~~ /("-"|"--"|":") ("/"?) (<-[0..9\.]> .*)/ 10:20
camelia 「--3=foo」
0 => 「-」
1 => 「」
2 => 「-3=foo」
notagoodidea m: say "-3=foo" ~~ /("-"|"--"|":") ("/"?) (<-[0..9\.]> .*)/ 10:21
camelia Nil
notagoodidea m: say "--.=foo" ~~ /("-"|"--"|":") ("/"?) (<-[0..9\.]> .*)/
camelia 「--.=foo」
0 => 「-」
1 => 「」
2 => 「-.=foo」
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notandinus how do i install rakudoc? 'zef install rakudoc' says no matching candidate found 10:38
moritz there's a p6doc 10:43
dunno if that's the current one, or a very old, out-of-date copy :-)
notandinus i see , it points to github.com/Raku/doc, must be the current one 10:48
docs.raku.org/programs/02-reading-docs says to 'zef install rakudoc'
CIAvash It's on github, but doesn't appear on modules.raku.org: github.com/Raku/rakudoc 10:56
jmerelo notandinus: p6doc is simply the documentation repo, which can't be installed anyway. rakudoc is not in the ecosystem, pending (for a year and a half) revision. For the time being, if you want the documentation you'd better use it online 10:58
notandinus: and we should probably eliminate that.
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PimDanie1 hi everybody, 11:47
I'm searching an example to pass ioctl call with Raku.
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dakkar ioctl is a pain… you can't (easily) get, from Raku, at the macros that make it barely-manageable in C 11:56
also memory management is weird and specific to each call
PimDanie1 Hi dakkar.
Thank you! 11:57
dakkar sorry I can't actually be helpful, though
PimDanie1 I'm French, beware that i can make sense confusion.
dakkar ok, simpler-english-version
calling ioctl is complicated 11:58
it's complicated in C as well
but C preprocessor macros mask some of that complication
in Raku, you can't easily access those macros
PimDanie1 Do you mean that i must call C routine compile in a C library?
dakkar well, ioctl is a system call 11:59
PimDanie1 Do you mean it would be easier that way.
dakkar you run system calls usually via C functions in libc
PimDanie1 Yes i agree.
What i attempt to do: 12:00
dakkar if you can write C functions that call the ioctl in the way you need, compile them into a dynamic library, and then NativeCall your functions, you may have simpler problems
PimDanie1 ok i saw example and i can do that.
I learned C language before. 12:01
I'm just trying to pass ioctl for console control.
For now i just make tests.
I thing the best would be to reduce primitive action on C side. For just my needs. 12:02
primitive actions
dakkar yes 12:03
PimDanie1 The problem beeing some data will be retured packed.
and i saw that unpack is experimental in Raku! Yes/No?
dakkar I suggest you copy the data from the ugly structures that ioctl uses, into sensible structures you define, in your C code 12:04
then you can use NativeCall to map those structs to raku classes
PimDanie1 Ok. I need to put example but my consoles are in desordered. 12:05
#!/usr/local/bin/perl6 12:07
my $struct;
constant TIOCGWINSZ = 0x5413;
ioctl stdout,TIOCGWINSZ, $struct;
this call should return the lines and cols. 12:08
ho ok i understand.
I think c function in this case should return one or 2 integers. 12:09
Not sure i can return 2 integers in C.
I think i'll find a solution. 12:10
Thank you very much dakkar.
dakkar C can only return 1 simple value, you need to either receive a pointer to a struct and fill it, or allocate the struct and return a pointer to it
(and then the caller has to `free` the struct, NativeCall may have some helpers for that) 12:11
PimDanie1 Ok so in this case use termio struct probably. 12:12
why should'n i declare constant struct on C side? instead of alloc/free? 12:13
dakkar because that's global shared mutable state
and you don't want that
raku is multi-threaded: what happens if two thread call your function at the same time? 12:14
PimDanie1 You can see that i think!
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PimDanie1 ok : i think i understand. 12:15
dakkar ooh, fun, Gentoo Linux has /usr/lib64/libc.so as a text file 12:17
anyway, lunchtime 12:18
PimDanie1 It depends where you leave! Bon appétit!
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xinming_ when we do url encoding, I saw that & will become %26 Is there a perl6 module for this purpose? 14:56
guifa2 github.com/raku-community-modules/URI-Encode 14:59
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Xliff \o 15:00
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Xliff How can I protect routes in Cro by requiring a specific header? 15:01
sena_kun jnthn:
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notagoodidea is it a way to define a part of a signature of a func outside of the func definition? 15:07
Geth doc: uzluisf++ created pull request #3778:
Add clarification about private methods
guifa2 notagoodidea: not at the moment. Signature literals is fairly recent, but there's no way to link it to a codeblock 15:14
notagoodidea guifa2: yeah, I am slowly realizing that by getting error throws at me by the REPL :) 15:15
I was hoping to create a partialy signature with a set of flags and add to some of multi MAIN when needed instead of rewriting everything everytime. 15:17
I could put it in the proto and every multi will get access to them but you have not the granularity to say which flag apply for each multi as far as I know. 15:18
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guifa2 Dynamic variables can be your friend 15:23
Actually 15:24
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guifa2 tio.run/##K0gtyjH7/7@gKL8kX6G4NEkh...zjZIj0//8A 15:28
how is that?
notagoodidea Interessing! 15:31
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notagoodidea I hope it will possible in the future to `my $sub-sig = :(Bool :$foo); sub f($lala, >$sub-sig)` but maybe ... I can do something similar with enum, slurpy flag and where clause.. 15:37
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notagoodidea With 2020.12 and the REPL acts a bit weird. 15:43
PimDaniel Haa bon!
Hello. 15:44
notagoodidea Hello
PimDaniel Is there an irc channel where i can ask newbie questions on Raku?
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perry Here! 15:45
notagoodidea, yeah I've heard that too regarding the REPL.
PimDaniel Ok thank's.
my name is Jean-Yves.
I've learned Perl5 and earn my live with it. 15:46
I love Raku, especially for classes.
but i discover it. 15:47
I need to use NativeCall (s).
notagoodidea in order `> enum Flag (foo => "bar"); > sub f($a){}; > f(a => 1);" and after getting the error about the wrong function call. The next entry will be always get a error "===SORRY!=== Error While Compiling: Redeclaration fo symbol 'Flag'."
PimDaniel docs.raku.org/language/nativecall 15:48
notagoodidea Because it try to rerun all the line kept in the context, it makes the REPL unusable for the session. `exit` can not be used and only Ctrl+c let you get out of the REPL.
PimDaniel At chapter : Specifying the native representation 15:50
guifa2 notagoodidea: weird. Although I don't use REPL too much, really just for interactive browsing of CLDR these days 15:51
PimDaniel There is an example of a native call of clock_gettime C function.
notagoodidea guifa2: I think it is an extreme case of this issue github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/4160 15:52
PimDaniel What i do not understand is this line:
sub clock_gettime(uint32 $clock-id, timespec $tspec --> uint32) is native { * };
jdv79 PimDaniel: what exactly is the problem? 15:53
PimDaniel The second parameter seams to be a pointer but :
what means this notation: 15:54
timespec $tspec --> uint32
and what is $tspec variable : i don't see it in any other place in the given code.
jdv79 its right above, no? 15:55
its a cstruct thingee
PimDaniel why --> unin32 and not --> int8 15:56
What does it rely to? 15:57
guifa2 It depends on what the C function returns
'--> uint32' means "this function returns a uint32"
PimDaniel Does --> in a function is general raku for what it returns? 15:59
guifa2 Correct
jdv79 got me. maybe the example is a bit inexact there:)
perry PimDaniel, do you mean why uint32 instead of an int8 as well?
PimDaniel Yes. 16:00
MasterDuke yes. you can also do `sub foo($a) returns uint32 { ... }`, but there are some limitations to that syntax, so the `-->` version is recommended
perry PimDaniel: uint32 basically just means an unsigned (always positive) integer with 32 bits of precision
PimDaniel Right! 16:01
perry So an integer from zero to 4,294,967,296
MasterDuke at least on my system clock_gettime seems to return a C int, so `--> int32` would be more correct. not sure why it's uint
jdv79 its in the docs - docs.raku.org/type/Signature#index-entry---%3E
PimDaniel but this can in somme circonstances represent a pointer!!
MasterDuke might just be a typo in the docs
PimDaniel I think the doc is ok. 16:02
perry PimDaniel, ah I see, I hadn't read the whole conversation :) 16:03
PimDaniel int clock_settime(clockid_t clk_id, const struct timespec *tp)
ok i see : but You replied to my question.
what i just wrote is the C prototype and it returns an int 16:04
Here's the goot prototype: int clock_gettime(clockid_t clk_id, struct timespec *tp);
i suppose this c is an int32 in raku. 16:05
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PimDaniel Ok thank you very mutch : i need to look a documentation for subs again. 16:07
*look for
guifa2 Isn't a C-int just guaranteed to be at least 16-bit (but potentially more, based on compiler/architecture, etc)?
PimDaniel Good question but what can more can less, no? 16:08
The C-int depend of your machine.
or no : your compiler.
thanks very much. I leave for now. Going to make some test and see. 16:11
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xinming_ guifa2: THanks 16:20
SmokeMachine: How do we do distinct(col) for model? 16:21
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SmokeMachine xinming_: we don’t... yet... 16:24
notagoodidea lizmat: sorry for adding stuff on the issue, didn't know/see the rewind.
lizmat notagoodidea: no worries, it was just the straw that broke the camel's back :-) 16:25
SmokeMachine xinming_: I think you can Red::AST::Function for that 16:26
usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/...382492.JPG 16:28
xinming_: or classify: ^^ 16:29
guifa2 lizmat: might want to mention in the weekly that ecosystem updates are temporarily paused because of Travis (jmerelo is working on an alternative now, but my most recent two modules can't get the automated testing done ATM)
xinming_ SmokeMachine: Ok, Thanks. will try 16:30
guifa2 or rather new modules, I suppose extant ones can still get updates no problem
SmokeMachine .say for Model.classify(*.col).keys
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lizmat guifa2: if it its about ecosystem modules (ones that live in META.list in the ecosystem repo) 17:08
we could always add them manually there
guifa2: just let me know which ones :-)
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guifa2 lizmat: yeah, I could have manually added (heck, I have direct-commit privileges now), but I wanted to respect the testing/QA process :-) 17:14
lizmat: github.com/alabamenhu/IntlTokenNumber and github.com/alabamenhu/IntlFormatNumber 17:15
lizmat as long as the testing process is borked, we should allow for some other way
ok, will add them now
Geth ecosystem: e7437bccac | (Elizabeth Mattijsen)++ | META.list
Manually add Intl::(Format|Token)::Number

As our testing workflow is currently borked thanks to Travis bailing on open source.
guifa2 ^^^ Umm.... is that syntax (or similar) valid for importing modules? If not, I feel like it should be :-) 17:21
lizmat no, it's not :-) 17:22
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guifa2 adds that to his list of 1239 things to do 17:22
Xliff Getting SEGV at... 17:24
MVM_spesh_log_invoke_target (tc=0x55555555a160, invoke_target=0x0, was_multi=0) at src/spesh/log.c:194
194 if (REPR(invoke_target)->ID == MVM_REPR_ID_MVMCode && IS_CONCRETE(invoke_target)) {
And for the life of me, I can't get it to golf... (as usual)
lizmat perhaps #moarvm folks could tell you more about that ? 17:25
also: is this on HEAD ?
Xliff HEAD as of yesterday. 17:26
lizmat today saw the merge of some memory leaks / corruption fixes in MoarVM
definitely worth a try :)
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Xliff lizmat++ 17:32
This error vexes me: "Hash keys must be concrete strings (got )" 17:33
When all keys in the hash ar strings!
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lizmat well, at NQP level there can be non-concrete strings 17:34
m: my str @a; use nqp; dd nqp::isnull_s(nqp::atpos_s(@a,0))
camelia 1
lizmat this is something nwc10 on #moarvm could be interested in :-) 17:35
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Xliff OK. This is beyond frustrating. I think I'm going to need some expert help. 17:37
I will have to write up everything in a gist.
lizmat Xliff: am afraid so :-(