🦋 Welcome to Raku! raku.org/ | evalbot usage: 'p6: say 3;' or /msg camelia p6: ... | irclog: colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_log/raku
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summerisle oh man, the raku indent rules and lexers are basically 1:1 identical to css-mode 00:02
honestly, it isn't even indentation that I have the biggest issues with in raku-mode, it's werid fontlock bugs
like not realizing that some text is POD
until you go mess with it 00:03
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db48x really good indentation and syntax highlighting requires writing a full and complete parser for the language 02:48
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db48x most language modes in Emacs don't go that far 02:49
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db48x or in any editor, for that matter 02:53
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summerisle eh, it just needs to be good enough. CPerl mode has good indentation, c-mode has good indentation, and ruby-mode has good indentation 03:16
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jmerelo releasable6:status 08:16
releasable6 jmerelo, Next release in ≈10 hours. 1 blocker. 22 out of 134 commits logged
jmerelo, Details: gist.github.com/d5fc22e3b0ac56be09...cd06c0c9da
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jmerelo The deadline for Google Summer of Code applications has passed, our application is in. You can still propose new projects, or join one as a mentor perl-foundation-outreach.github.io...021-ideas/ 08:30
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sena_kun \o/ 08:43
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cetjs2 мяу 09:07
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jmerelo sena_kun: let's see if we're luckier this year than last one... 09:59
We will know by March 9th.
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xinming_ releasable6: 13:36
releasable6 xinming_, I cannot recognize this command. See wiki for some examples: github.com/Raku/whateverable/wiki/Releasable
xinming_ releasable6: help
releasable6 xinming_, status | status link # See wiki for more examples: github.com/Raku/whateverable/wiki/Releasable
xinming_ releasable6: status
releasable6 xinming_, Next release in ≈5 hours. 2 blockers. 22 out of 134 commits logged
xinming_, Details: gist.github.com/cb2e0f63f1bbae674c...b63a402d66
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masak summerisle: I think I agree with db48x on this one. you kind of need to have a faithful parser to do it right. 14:23
well, hm. I guess it depends what losses you consider to be acceptable 14:24
there's something to be said for a syntax that's so easy to parse that getting it right is almost automatic. but Perl and Raku were never such languages. 14:25
it's hard to be such a language unless you really try. Lisps and Forths often are. maybe Smalltalks too.
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guifa2 arg 15:53
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guifa2 when you have sub MAIN (@files, :$extra) { … } you *have* to use "--extra fileA fileB" and can't use "fileA fileB --extra" 15:56
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codesections guifa2: is that controlled by :named-anywhere, or is it always true? 16:20
guifa2 it's always undefined. *@files (meant to type the slurpy there) gobbles it up as an array element 16:21
so `raku script.raku fileA fileB --extra` gives me @files = <fileA fileB --extra>
codesections Oh, yeah. I think that's pretty much unavoidable, unless you guess 16:22
which then gets very bad if you have pathological filenames 16:23
(iirc, Python's argparse guesses, which is very nice right until it isn't) 16:24
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guifa2 Yeah, in this case, there's no guess work to worry about, all the real files start with <alpha> ** 2 16:28
is there any way to control the threading with hyper for @foo { … } ? 16:29
codesections I just meant for argument parsers in general, though
guifa2 @foo.hyper(:1batch, :4degree).map: { … } feels a bit less declarative I guess
MasterDuke add an e.g, `.hyper(:4batch)` 16:30
xinming_ releasable6: status
releasable6 xinming_, and I oop! Backtrace: gist.github.com/9a93ea0796c12b3c26...52a6f19152
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AlexDaniel` interesting? 16:31
sena_kun: ↑ do you know why that may be? 16:32
or is it just a bug in the bot? 16:33
MasterDuke because github.com/rakudo/rakudo/wiki/ChangeLog-Draft has two `New in 2021.02:`?
guifa2 MasterDuke: for serializes HyperSeqs.
m: my $time = now; for (1..4).hyper(:1batch, :4degree) { sleep 1 }; say now - $time; 16:34
camelia 4.0098883
MasterDuke yeah, you need `hyper for`, but then the extra .hyper if you want to set parameters 16:35
guifa2 m: my $time = now; hyper for (1..4).hyper(:1batch, :4degree) { sleep 1 }; say now - $time;
camelia 1.070058
guifa2 oooooh
the double hyper is … inelegant but it works lol
cetjs2 what do I debugging raku programs? 16:36
MasterDuke there is a debugger. the comma ide makes it a bit easier to use 16:37
cetjs2 MasterDuke, What ide for raku is it?\ 16:38
MasterDuke commaide.com/ 16:39
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andinus whats the difference between #= and #| ? 16:56
sub MAIN ( #= doc and #|doc
guifa2 #= sets the doc to the previous declarator
#| to the next
andinus ah i see, what's recommended ? 16:57
guifa2 (maybe we should have gone with #← and #↓ haha)
I use both actually
#| A sub that does X
sub foo ( 16:58
$a #= the first
$b #= the second
+ a comma after $a for proper syntax
andinus hmm this approach looks better 16:59
emacs doesnt re-organize #= properly though, #| it does well
i mean re-indent 17:00
guifa2 At the end of the day, whatever reads cleanest is what's best. And that can change sometimes for different things 17:01
grrrr. $lock.protect: { callsame } seems to call … actually I don't know what it's calling but it's not working :-(
sena_kun oops 17:11
releasable6, status
releasable6 sena_kun, Next release in ≈1 hour. 1 blocker. 134 out of 134 commits logged
sena_kun, Details: gist.github.com/5fb036b4c4b087ef08...2859cece86
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codesections wait, why in the world does IO::Spec::QNX exist? Was someone putting Raku in a _car_? 17:42
masak .oO( still preferable to putting it in a cdr )
codesections (If so, they're my kind of crazy)
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masak m: say "I just realized I don't even remember what 'm:' stands for, and yet it's still ingrained" 17:45
camelia I just realized I don't even remember what 'm:' stands for, and yet it's still ingrained
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masak maybe it stands for 'moar' 17:45
masak .oO( siempre maz ) 17:46
tadzik alpha: say "are you still there?" 17:48
masak tadzik \o/ 17:52
and... what the heck is an alpha? :P 17:53
tadzik masak! \o/
masak besides the Bad Guy (kinda) in Dollhouse?
tadzik hmm, maybe I misremember the name. But before nom there was the previous rakudo, and the one before had a grammar engine that did things that the pre-nom rakudo did not, iirc
maybe it was called differently 17:54
masak no, that sounds right
tadzik github.com/rakudo/rakudo/tree/alpha
codesections and nom is New Object Model?
masak the price of constant progress is premature obsolescence, I guess
codesections: yep
codesections: pro tip: never call anything "new"
tadzik :P
masak you'll end up regretting it 17:55
tadzik you can just keep adding -er postfix forever
codesections (it took me a while to figure out what a nom_regression was the other day)
tadzik like with the power efficiency ratings, that go up to A but then there's A+, A++, A+++...
masak case in point: the "New York Times". should've just gone with the "York Times"
I coulda told them that
codesections Or more news on the front
masak codesections: second series Doctor Who 17:56
AlexDaniel` the actual pro tip is “never change the default branch to something else, wtf”
masak 19 'New's
codesections plenty of novels have had a New New York
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masak AlexDaniel`: ah, you mean like changing `master` to `main`... 17:56
tadzik AlexDaniel`: to be fair these days a valid question is "something else than what?" :>
I'm glad I never did my master's degree, that would've been so awkward to rename now 17:57
masak .oO( just tell me plain: are you against slavery, or what? )
tadzik: clearly should've been called a "main degree"
codesections what college is it that has a the New School that's very old?
AlexDaniel` does github still default to main, or whatever it is?
tadzik it might. I remember opting in to remaining on 'master' 17:58
masak AlexDaniel`: GitHub, and Git as well
AlexDaniel` ooooh
tadzik hmm
masak it's a fairly wide-reaching change
AlexDaniel` interesting
masak I'm actually not opposed to it as much as... rolling my eyes
AlexDaniel` if they called it “develop” it would've been a bit easier :')
tadzik my git creates 'master' but warns
hint: Using 'master' as the name for the initial branch. This default branch name is subject to change. 17:59
masak tadzik: ah, that might be it. about to change.
codesections it seems like an easy enough default to change for new repos
AlexDaniel` new repos.
masak here's the thing. I believe in not making people uncomfortable. needlessly.
tadzik I'm glad that will never be a problem for me 18:00
AlexDaniel` tadzik: haha
codesections (I went ahead and changed my default for creating new ones)
tadzik because since github uses the world "collaborator", and in my cultural circle "collabolator" historically means "collaborates with nazis" so I cannot be a github collaborator without my ancestors rolling in their graves
masak I'm even fine with staying away from using words that tend to make people uncomfortable.
ok, tadzik is faster on the trigger :) 18:01
tadzik I've practiced this rant :P
masak tadzik: you sir, are an enabler. shame on you :P
masak .oO( if your ancestors were alive right now, they'd be rolling in their graves ) 18:02
tadzik :o
AlexDaniel` nah, I don't mind at all, let it be main. It's just that changing it for existing repos is hard, and having both at the same time in different repos is annoying because muscle memory and ctrl+r
codesections m: { say now - ENTER now } 18:03
camelia 0.00073259
masak AlexDaniel`: I'm even willing to let my muscle memory take a hit if it genuinely makes some people of color less uncomfortable in IT
but I am a little bit sad it had to come to this
codesections my muscle memory is honestly m<TAB> anyway 18:04
masak something about it feels more like "pattern matching" and less like solving genuine issues, if you see what I mean
tadzik I honestly find it hard to believe that this is anything else than virtue signalling
AlexDaniel` it'd also be a constant reminder for the next 10 years if not more :)
tadzik a culture that never dealt with their racist past (and present!) and so it resorts to empty gestures to pretend that they're trying 18:05
codesections m: sub foo() { say now - ENTER now }; foo
camelia 0.0007199
AlexDaniel` codesections: what? m<TAB> expands into `git switch main`? how is that possible?
masak tadzik: even giving it the benefit of the doubt, it feels like mostly an empty gesture. the only thing about words is that they're common goods, so it's something everyone can join in on
AlexDaniel` codesections: ctrl+r mai on the other hand does, depending on your usage 18:06
codesections no, git switch m<tab>
AlexDaniel` yes but you really want to type git switch?
that's the point
codesections or, really, git co m<tab>, because I have an alias
masak just do what TimToady does, create a lot of one-letter aliases
AlexDaniel` nah, just use ctrl+r, it's essentially dynamic aliases 18:07
codesections or magit
masak TimToady: when you're around, I have a question about unquotes and parsing
AlexDaniel` ctrl+r is all commands you have used in your lifetime, not just git :P 18:08
masak AlexDaniel`: I've often said -- repeatedly -- that if I ever give a course on bash, it'll just be 2 days of constant repetition of the Ctrl+R key binding
tadzik :)
AlexDaniel` and then a week telling people to quote stuff, and they still won't
codesections yes, I know what Ctrl-r is
masak I figure I'd have time to go through it about 300 times in 2 days 18:09
codesections and what fzf is
and other history search options
none have really grabed me, though
masak that's allowing for breaks
AlexDaniel` codesections: do you have infinite history set up? 18:10
could be the reason why
without it ctrl+r is pretty useless 18:11
codesections I don't think I do atm. I have in the past
masak disagree. I don't have infinite history, and Ctrl+R is still very useful.
codesections I also have fish-style history-based auto complete, which plays a similar role 18:12
(though I don't actually use fish)
masak about quoting stuff: bash is clearly a dead end, but it just so happens to be "worse is better" good enough 18:13
so.. though
I've seen some pretty impressive alternatives be proposed. none of them will ever catch on.
the people who care will use something like fish. they will always be in a minority. 18:14
I think if I could be bothered, I would use something like a Scheme shell instead of bash
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masak scsh.net/ 18:14
codesections yeah. But, I mean, I use yash, emacs/eshell, void linux, ... and raku. I'm pretty ok with tech choices that put me in the minority 18:15
masak sure. but that wasn't my point.
I'm ok with such tech choices too. 18:16
I'm one of the few Bel users in the world :P
codesections (there's also the guile shell, gash)
masak and yes, I do use Emacs regularly, and I enjoy Linux. considering BSD.
I want to write a GUI-based shell for Bel just so that I can use it on my Android phone 18:17
codesections wait, the paul graham lisp Bel? I didn't know there was an implementation
masak I have some good news for you today, sir
tadzik :)
masak or madam
github.com/masak/bel/ 18:18
tadzik masak: I'd argue zsh has caught on really well as a bash alternative
with some niche distros shipping it as a default too
masak codesections: basically feature-complete
slow as all that, but I have a plan. it involves compilation.
tadzik: well, yes
tadzik: for all the good that does it 18:19
tadzik: zsh is the Linux of shells :P
technically very dominant, but still very much a hidden number two
db48x masak: some languages are certainly easier to parse
perry I was a former zsh fan, but I gotta say I like fish better now. 18:20
masak ok, so we're doin' this
tadzik fish is the nixos of shells :P
or whatever
masak .oO( nixos...? )
perry Look, I don't need POSIX compliance in my daily shell, dangit! 18:21
codesections masak very interesting! I remember Paul Graham saying his goal with Bel was to let people write as concisely as possible. how's it compare to Raku?
masak codesections: I gotta tell you
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masak codesections: I was super-stoked since the day this came out, man 18:21
codesections: I still think there's something in there, something genuinely interesting
what pg wants to do is to _widen_ the metacircular loop, to include not just the evaluator, but the reader, printer, even the numeric tower 18:22
the problem is that "layers of abstraction" == slow 18:23
which is why you need compilation
codesections: to answer your question more directly, Bel is still mostly untested 18:24
codesections: I've come to realize that I thrive with languages that are in the "early alpha" stage, like Bel is now, or like Raku was back in 2008
where there's lots of potential, and most of the energy goes into finding ways to realize that potential 18:25
people like jnthn are much better at the "late beta" stage, where you need to commit to the long haul and build a VM or something :)
codesections :) 18:26
masak as part of my semi-involuntary research into PL history in 2020, I've found that basically all the Scheme people built a VM 18:27
because that's what you do
Bel is more of a Scheme in denial than a Lisp, I'd say 18:28
well. it's a Scheme with gensyms.
codesections but, setting aside the "stage" issue, I'm fascinated by Bel vs Raku because both languages prioritize expressiveness, pretty much above all else. But Bel wants to get there through minimalist syntax, Raku through maximalist
db48x how does it put the reader and printer into the metacircular loop? 18:29
masak codesections: this is true. but the difference might be smaller than you think. I don't see Bel as being all that minimalist in the _amount_ of built-ins -- only in the token length of their definitions. 18:30
db48x: the reader and printer are the easy ones.
db48x: it's the evaluator that's a bother to bootstrap :P
codesections like you, I was *very* excited by Bel when it first came out (in fact, I'm actually still squatting on the r/bellang subreddit, which I should probably transfer at some point...)
masak codesections: didn't even know there was a subreddit
codesections there isn't 18:31
masak codesections: I believe at this point I'm in possession of the most complete implementation. but I still want to make it fast.
codesections I just registered the name, but never did anything with it
masak codesections: there's been precious little interest in Bel from both HN and the Arc forum 18:32
codesections: if you want to team up and do something... let me know
codesections masak: but re syntax, I'm not talking about builtins, so much as number of operators.
masak codesections: please be more specific
I'm definitely in a position to understand your point
codesections Raku uses every key on the keyboard other (other than `) and has fairly baroque precedence rules to let you combine them in all sorts of ways (plus things like circumflex, etc) 18:34
masak codesections: by the way, I'm kind of squatting the github.com/bel-language organization. I want to put some documentation there.
oh yeah. point taken.
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masak "circumfix", but yes :) 18:35
codesections ha, thanks
db48x oh, I see; all of those items are self-hosted
masak well, Lisp ditches precedence/associativity right out of the gate
codesections yeah 18:36
masak that's what the parentheses are about, in the end. they're about explicitly delimiting expressions.
codesections or enforces it super strongly, depending on your POV
masak it's not that you couldn't do it with precedence; it's just that it's a fairly ingrained not-default
I think what you should focus on is the liberal stance Lisps have towards what can go into a symbol 18:37
codesections right. But the perl/raku take is that you can be a lot more expressive when you can change word order
masak like, if you have something like a * in Raku, the parser goes "ah! that must be an operator!"
but in Scheme, and Bel, it's just a symbol
codesections fair 18:38
masak the only vaguely Algol-like language I know which got that brilliant idea from Lisp, is Dylan
we should all write more Dylan code :)
codesections: I dunno about "change word order". one thing I've been struggling with, both during my Alma phase (2014-2019) and my current Bel phase (2019-) is that in languages like Raku, a lot of effort is spent on "syntax" 18:40
and Lisp doesn't really have that kind of thing, it just has nested lists, basically. 18:41
codesections yeah
masak in Bel, you can write an entire `if` statement without degrading yourself with baroque keywords like `else` or `else if`
it's basically all just argument order
codesections that's kind of what I mean by maximalist vs minimalist approach to syntax
masak and that just makes things a whole lot easier -- seemingly -- for macros to act on the code 18:42
codesections both are firmly convinced that there way will lead to the most expressive, concise code
but they're opposite!
masak it doesn't help that I've recently found Kernel, and I kind of like that approach very much too. but Kernel is just so entirely different from basically everything that it's hard to know how to even relate it to the rest 18:43
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masak codesections: well, I can say this with some confidence: if you opt for the Raku/Alma approach to ASTs, you'll end up with some kind of object-oriented AST API, and it's definitely a bit more complex than just S-expressions 18:44
for better and worse
you can mitigate, sure, to a point
but you won't ever compete with the utter simplicity of nested lists 18:45
codesections yeah. That's true
guifa2 stackoverflow.com/questions/662952...d-callsame <-- fun new SO question
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masak codesections: quasiquoting helps a bit, too. then you can "just write code" instead of describing it indirectly. 18:47
but in a way, that's still hiding complexity instead of reducing it.
codesections indeed. But Raku will get quasiquoting (and probably soon, with the AST work, right?) 18:48
masak for example, in Alma/Raku (unlike in Lisps) interesting questions arise about what the relative precedence/associativity is of an unquote
m: macro moo($x) { quasi { {{{$x}}} } }; say moo(42) 18:49
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Use of macros is experimental; please 'use experimental :macros'
at <tmp>:1
------> 3macro7⏏5 moo($x) { quasi { {{{$x}}} } }; say moo
masak m: use experimental :macros; macro moo($x) { quasi { {{{$x}}} } }; say moo(42)
camelia 42
masak codesections: yes. :)
implemented, by me, around 2012.
what it will get soon, hopefully, is proper hygiene. 18:50
codesections yeah. Which helps a lot
masak spearheaded by Alma in 2015-2019.
codesections most of the macros I've written have been in Racket or Rust 18:51
(basically the same macro system)
masak much of taht hygiene actually works in Alma today.
the other day I realized that most of it comes down to "respect static bindings"
Raku happens to have static bindings. not every language does
and so macros need to preserve those. occasionally that means putting variables through unusual contortions. 18:52
codesections yeah. I really think it'll be _possible_ for us to build a truly top-notch macro system
masak agreed. 18:53
jnthn has been doing some impressive groundwork there, too. keeping his eye on the ball.
codesections yep
masak Alma is a little bit more of a "research project". unfettered by in-production concerns, more thinking about what's possible. 18:54
codesections yeah. That's part of what draws me to Raku -- it has _really_ lofty goals _without_ being a research project 18:55
masak I'm a synopses guy, and (I guess) an apolcalypses guy. I see a really marvellous vision in there, one that's still unrealized in some ways. 18:57
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masak the clearest part of that (to me) is that, in order to really be a 100-year language, Raku, needs to be syntax-entensible. 18:57
codesections yeah. Getting closer every $time-period, though, hopefully
masak that means not just macros, but slangs too.
codesections agreed. 18:58
masak and extensible grammars, and meta-circular grammars.
codesections the foundations seem to be there for slangs
masak Alma is kind of the vanguard of that vision.
codesections more so than Racket/PLT?
masak haha
Alma is definitely the closest thing to Racket, starting from Raku 18:59
not sure how close it gets in practice ;)
I always feel I should spend more effort looking into Racket
I think the biggest inspiration I've taken from Racket so far into Alma is that... a "slang" is something temporary, that you can snap back out of, but a "lang" is permanent, for the rest of the compunit 19:00
codesections ooh, interesting 19:01
oh, I need to step away for a bit. Very interesting chat, though -- thanks :) 19:02
masak talk soon :)
masak sleeps
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El_Che lizmat: there? 19:57
lizmat yes, I'm here
El_Che I posted the question in #raku-dev 20:00
regarding your answer to a post on reddit regarding a bug
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