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[Coke] goes to the raku/doc tickets, rapidly finds tickets where he's tried to have fun, there is no fun, and stops again. 03:18
[Coke] wonders if there's anything fun to work on. 03:25
[Coke] plays MTGA instead.
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Geth Raku-Steering-Council/gh-pages: 0e4c22d20e | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ | 2 files
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Raku-Steering-Council/gh-pages: 9b1923bd73 | (Juan Julián Merelo Guervós)++ | 0 files
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PimDaniel o/ 08:36
tellable6 2021-03-11T18:01:11Z #raku <guifa2> PimDaniel: taht's the best way to do it.
PimDaniel thank's guifa2! 08:39
New question:
Is it possible to have or a trick to have a (kindof) <Int,Int> hash key into and hash? 08:42
Or is it better to use a 2 dimentional Array or even a one dimentionnal fixed size array in that case? 08:44
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japhb PimDaniel: Why are you wanting numeric hash keys? What problem are you solving? (My first guess would be sparse multidimensional data.) 08:47
IIUC underneath the covers all hash keys are strings, BUT Raku hides this by allowing you to declare an a hash to be keyed with some other type (e.g. `my %hash{Int}`), and the magic to make that work will be hidden away. It's not guaranteed to be performance-optimal, though. 08:49
lizmat++ would be know more I think -- IIRC she wrote most of that magic. 08:51
*would know
(Well, the Rakudo implementation, at least) 08:52
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SmokeMachine m: my %a{Int}; %a{1} = 42; %a{10} = 13; %a{100} = 314; dd %a # PimDaniel 09:08
camelia Hash[Any,Int] %a = (my Any %{Int} = 1 => 42, 10 => 13, 100 => 314)
SmokeMachine m: my Int %a{Int}; %a{1} = 42; %a{10} = 13; %a{100} = 314; dd %a # PimDaniel 09:09
camelia Hash[Int,Int] %a = (my Int %{Int} = 1 => 42, 10 => 13, 100 => 314)
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PimDaniel japhb yes it's just 2D plan with x and y coords! 10:41
I need a fast indexing performance, well let's say that it would be better. Because i call this at many places into my code and into loops so may be the impact could be important. 10:46
Why a simple a 2D array should not be so fair? 10:47
The problem being that many values will return any. 10:48
Here's the problem : i build an Orthogon or an Orthogonal polygon so it has points but it does not have all points (lines * colums). 10:49
lizmat what would be the value of a point? 0/1 or something else ? 10:51
PimDaniel If i use an hash i'll optimize memory. If use a fixed buffer position, and performances will depend of the internal hash algorithm, i'll optimize performances. If i use a 2D array i think it is the same and may be more practical. 10:53
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PimDaniel lizmat Point is Class Point{has Int ($.x,$.y);}. 10:54
lizmat any additional attributes to Point ? 10:55
PimDaniel Don't think so. but Point object can be addressed by a simple x and y. 10:56
lizmat and the Point object is immutable ? 10:57
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PimDaniel of Course it has methods. for example method fix() { gotoxy($!x,$!y); print $!motif; }, yes it has motif attribute too. 10:58
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lizmat ok, then my idea is moot :-) 10:58
PimDaniel immutable good question .... Yes, my may modify it be i dit not do it but i can change attributes rw to ro for that. 11:00
what is moot?
lizmat well, a solution i had in mind won't work :-) 11:03
PimDaniel Often the most trivial for this is the best : even a one array will consume : echo "$LINES * COLS" | bc ==> 809919 octet static size for my most resoluted pseudo terminal. 11:05
* often a one D array 11:06
And then each array contains a point address := affected or Any if there's no point. 11:07
Well it's not 809919 it's 809919 * (size of an adress container). which is internal to Raku. 11:08
I don't think it's so weird. Finally. 11:09
* And then each array contains : i mean each array element. 11:10
i must leave to have a walk, see you later. 11:12
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RaycatWhoDat I know this may fall on deaf ears, but it needs to be said 12:52
On all of my devices - both mobile data and WiFi - docs.raku.org intermittently throws ERR_SSL_INVALID_RESPONSE and breaks the user experience. 12:53
This happens on all of my Chromium-based browsers (Chrome, Chromium, Brave) 12:54
I know people test it and they say it's fine but a newcomer to this language might use it as an excuse to ignore the language 12:56
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codesections RaycatWhoDat: That's definitely _not_ falling on deaf ears. rba has been doing a fair bit of work to troubleshoot that exact issue, in fact 13:03
they recently (a few days ago) turned off our cloudflare CDN, because initial troubleshooting led us to think that could be the cause. But I guess not, if you're still getting that issue... 13:05
If you don't mind me asking, are you in the US, or elsewhere? (Everyone else who has reported that issue has been in the US, so we're thinking that could be a common factor) 13:06
RaycatWhoDat Yep. I'm in the US. 13:12
Good to know someone is working on it, though! 13:13
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leont doesn't like the list comprehension example in the Python to Raku guide. 14:22
Why would you write « { $_[0] + $_[1] } for (3,9) X (2,10)» when you can write «(3,9) X+ (2,10)» 14:23
codesections leont: to introduce the X operator before introducing meta ops, as a guess 14:25
leont We can do both? First give the longer pythonesque version, and then the shorter one?
codesections yeah, that seems good. (Though it does require explaining meta ops at that moment, which could be a digression.) 14:26
leont Does it? The document doesn't have to explain all it does, it can also link to other documentation 14:27
codesections (also, I'm not a python programmer and haven't read that guide, so I'm just shooting the breeze; no need to listen to any of the above :D)
leont I'm not a python programmer either, just reading it now because it was updated yesterday 14:29
It's pretty good actually, that was my only complaint with it
(OTOH, this did completely change my opinion on how useful the X meta operator is) 14:37
codesections what's the Routine/Block/Sub like type that's something like "loaded function"? I forget the exact name and can't find it in the docs 14:41
Oh, I was thinking of __PRIMED_ANON, which isn't a type and isn't in the docs. That explains why I couldn't find it! 14:46
uzl[m] Came across the proof of concept Raku's new doc site ( in /r/rakulang and it's looking great 14:52
sena_kun++ and all the other involved in it 14:53
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rba RaycatWhoDat: You may try docs.rakulang.site/ . Yet since mid of last week docs.raku.org and docs.rakulang.site MUST point to the same IP as I have turned of CDN on cloudflare. Please report if the ip differs. 18:42
tellable6 rba, I'll pass your message to RaycatWhoDat
rba My best bet would be that some DNS in US are not following the rules and have old information. 18:45
codesections rba: that could well be it. I've learned to _never_ bet against the problem being DNS related 18:46
i.imgur.com/YKvOiA4.png 18:48
rba Anyone experiencing SSL error to any of the website please send me pvt message, so I can give you an email as I like to get some additional information and maybe a screenshot to understand it.
raydiak rba: I must log in with services to pm you, so I'm communicating with you here instead 19:05
rba: ibin.co/5uvj4O6M4TE6.png as you can see, it is resolving to the proper IP. where your server should be sending a ServerHello in response to my ClientHello during the TLS handshake, it is instead sending 256 FF bytes. I have no idea why. docs.rakulang.site works perfect every time.
rba raydiak: Are you enforcing a certain TLS version? 19:08
raydiak rba: stock kubuntu setup, I haven't changed any of that. this happens with all client whether chromium, firefox, or even curl 19:09
rba: just verified it also is repeatable from my android phone on the same wifi. wifi is just an ordinary comcast wifi cable modem on an ordinary residential account, nothing unusual. the rest of the internet works as usual. 19:12
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raydiak rba: and even if the handshake fails because of a TLS version mismatch, 256 FF bytes is not the way that failure should manifest. that's a very bizarre thing I've never seen before in all my past life as a web dev, admin, CTO, and other things. just very very strange behavior, especially since the same server at the other domain works totally fine 19:16
rba On the server end it's an ordinary nginx. 19:17
with ssl_protocols TLSv1 TLSv1.1 TLSv1.2;
raydiak I've googled it several times different ways in recent days, haven't found anyone else reporting the same thing, it's truly a mystery 19:18
rba nginx version: nginx/1.14.0 (Ubuntu) 19:20
raydiak: Is for you the docs.rakulang.site/ working? 19:21
raydiak if one domain name works and the other doesn't, all I can think is look at any nginx config differences between the two domains
rba It's even in the same config file... Hmmm. 19:22
raydiak yes, docs.rakulang.site/ always works great
rba raydiak: gist.github.com/rba/c11feff2a67fe3...e32ba036dc 19:24
codesections raydiak: does traceroute show any notable differences between the paths to the two sites?
raydiak in fact, once I load docs.rakulang.site/ in one tab and it succeeds and establishes a persistent connection, I can access docs.raku.org/ just fine too in another tab, until I wait a couple minutes for the persistent connection to be closed. then it's back to failing at the handshake
codesections wow. That is bizarre...
raydiak traces are the same, but good thought 19:25
I almost wondered if there could be cloudflare weirdness at the ARP level, but clearly I'm accessing the same machine either way since the connection persists 19:27
but yeah it's weird, only fails at that step of the handshake. if I push it past that with the other domain which works, then both domains work fine over https. just something about the handshake on the one domain... 19:28
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codesections are these servers in VPSs/containers? I'm starting to wonder if blowing away the misbehaving one and redeploying would be easier... 19:32
rba raydiak: yeah. really weird
raydiak rba: you could check your access and error logs, see if it says anything helpful. if you want to look for my traffic, my v4 IP is currently and v6 is 2601:602:d100:1020:2155:2a3c:8f57:7f23
rba It's just the same nginx and serving all the content. And even the two hostnames are configured in the same nging config part. 19:33
Hmm. Maybe a v4/v6 issue?
raydiak I doubt v4 vs v6, since both domains are configured the same on the same server 19:35
it is a multi-domain ssl cert, right?
in fact it looks like a single-domain cert for docs.raku.org. That's the only difference I can think of so far: the failing domain does match the certificate, while the working domain isn't named in the cert (but resolves to the same IP) 19:46
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raydiak ...which still does nothing to explain why it works for the majority of people, but fails for some in the US 19:58
even works fine if I curl it from my cerver in california 19:59
s/ce/se/ 20:00
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rba It's a single certificate with X509v3 Subject Alternative Name: DNS:docs.raku.org, DNS:docs.rakulang.site 20:04
do you get a ipv6 address? for either of the two hostnames? 20:05
raydiak everywhere I've seen it while testing so far, it's resolving to IPv4 on this machine 20:06
rba I think I have not taken care of properly configuring ipv6 for this host 20:07
Yet if cloudflare is enabled there might be a v6 listener which forwards to v4; which is turned off now as we use "dns only" atm. 20:08
I have log entries from today 20:09
raydiak oh right, I see the alternative name now. and yes, those log entries should be from me at the IP where I can see the failures. 20:12
I just did another failed request right now, check the last minute or so in your logs before this message for my ip and see what happened 20:13
raydiak waits for lurking script kiddies to point metasploit at his cable modem's IP... 20:16
codesections ha 20:17
rba raydiak: I have changed the loglevel, may you try again? 20:18
raydiak rba: done
rba 2021/03/14 20:18:26 [info] 2606#2606: *12 SSL_do_handshake() failed (SSL: error:1408F10B:SSL routines:ssl3_get_record:wrong version number) while SSL handshaking, client:, server:
raydiak hm 20:19
I wonder what it's seeing from me exactly
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raydiak it's basically the server-side equivalent of the same error my client was getting...wrong TLS version number actually usually means corrupted data 20:20
rba I see something like wrong MTU settings while google the internet... 20:21
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raydiak for the 256 FFs, with curl I get nearly the same error from you:
$ curl -L docs.raku.org/
curl: (35) error:1408F10B:SSL routines:ssl3_get_record:wrong version number
someone between your server and I is doing deep packet screwery if this isn't a misconfiguration on either of our ends 20:23
japhb Is there a .tell bot in this channel? 20:24
raydiak I believe so
.tell japhb yes
tellable6 raydiak, I'll pass your message to japhb
codesections yeah. .ask works too
japhb .
raydiak huh...didn't pass my message 20:25
maybe because you were already here?
codesections yeah. It's smart like that :)
raydiak cool. we have .seen too? 20:26
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codesections yep 20:26
raydiak .seen TimToady
tellable6 raydiak, I saw TimToady 2019-07-22T20:38:55Z in #perl6-dev: * TimToady had the power company swapping his electric meter, and it broke my / key
codesections :( 20:27
japhb .tell PimDaniel I am co-maintainer of Terminal::Print. I can assure you that Raku can handle having objects instantiated for all the points on a text screen as a 2D array just fine (even if you have a really big terminal). It's not worth the premature optimization.
tellable6 japhb, I'll pass your message to PimDaniel
raydiak miss that guy...
japhb Me too. :-( 20:28
codesections I wish I'd been a Raku user when he was still around more
raydiak idk why he isn't around any more, but I hope he's happy and healthy. I never knew him well personally, but his work had a big impact on my life. And his influence on the good things we've come to enjoy in the Perl and Raku communities can't be overstated 20:32
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rba raydiak: Non of my researches helped me to understand why we get this error message 20:42
raydiak rba: I'm sorry, I don't have an answer either. I've been looking into it but with no luck. As far as I can tell it has to be something between us, like my ISP or your server host. But every other site anyone here uses works fine 20:45
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rba raydiak: may you try again? 20:48
raydiak rba: can you tcpdump all the packets from our handshake on your server, like I do on my end with wireshark?
rba: tried again
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rba go 20:50
raydiak done 20:51
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rba may you try again? 20:55
raydiak done 20:56
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raydiak rba: other than comparing a complete dump of my packets and yours, which might not help much anyway, I don't see any other way to proceed based on what we know now other than filing a support ticket with your hosting provider with all the information we have so far. It looks like our packets are getting mangled at a point beyond our control if it's not some other layer on your end like varnish or iptables 21:12
mangling. You see a corrupted clienthello. I see a properly formatted clienthello and a corrupted serverhello. Something in between is wonky
What disturbs me is if I were attempting a failed man in the middle attack against a TLS connection, this is exactly the kind of weirdness I'd expect to see. I blame the NSA here in the USA. Which is more of a conspiracy theory than a plausable explanation 21:15
japhb Paranoia speaking here ... but maybe an incompetent MITM attack, such as a TLS/SSL version downgrade that fails?
Heh, perfect timing.
raydiak heh, glad to know it's not just me looking at that :)
rba raydiak: www.dropbox.com/s/ay6gjbpa02dl4m1/....pcap?dl=0 21:16
rba is looking into wireshare, yet not able to understand what is going wrong...
s/wireshare/wireshark/ 21:17
raydiak wireshark is a wonderful thing, whether for education or security
rba raydiak: btw offering TLSv1.3 now and it's used by your browser
raydiak ah, that's right. tls 1.3 is the new thing, isn't it? 21:20
the capture looks weird...like things are doubled...and you see several ClientHellos.... 21:21
rba raydiak: Just added 30/40 minutes ago... 21:22
raydiak it still fails. still looking at this capture, trying to figure it out
this is very bizarre. you are receiving multiple clienthellos, like repeated attempts or something. I only send one, by my captures. I'm seriously starting to think something is working its own agenda in between 21:30
rba raydiak: this are two tcp connections from your side 21:31
raydiak rba: okay, I see. two separate ports, my wireshark filter was too tight. why is chromium doing that, I wonder 21:34
rba: want to capture the exact same communication on both ends? I'll set mine up to monitor again, let me know when you're ready again on your end 21:38
rba raydiak: go
raydiak I'll do curl this time so there's no weirdness. here we go... 21:39
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rba raydiak: www.dropbox.com/s/a7f6qvl30dwt2do/....pcap?dl=0 21:41
raydiak: this look successfully to me. ??? 21:42
raydiak rba: it definietely wasn't. I'm looking for a place to pastebin a pcap file 21:43
rba 2021/03/14 21:39:15 [info] 4633#4633: *2074 peer closed connection in SSL handshake (104: Connection reset by peer) while SSL handshaking, client:, server: 21:44
raydiak rba: data.cyberuniverses.com/stuff/rakudoc.pcap 21:45
rba: data.cyberuniverses.com/stuff/rakudoc.pcapng
rba raydiak: even serverhello is missing. hmmm 21:46
raydiak: looks like some data is lost on the way... 21:47
raydiak rba: agreed. we both see valid clienthello, but then everything diverges. You send an ack, and I receive some garbage and then an ack, and everything's wrong after that until the rst that ends the conversation 21:50
rba raydiak: Can you test from another place in US? Like webhost? 21:52
raydiak rba: attach both of these to an issue to your hosting provider, is all I can figure. if you don't have some crazy firewall rules gone wrong or something, and I know I don't, then I'm at a loss
rba: yes I can hit it from my server, but it works there instead of failing. is that what you want to see?
rba I would guess it's something with comcast?
nine is our webhosting provider :-) 21:53
raydiak we can't rule comcast out, but the rest of the internet works fine from here
codesections yeah, I was going to say comcast as well. Unfortunately, monopolies being what they are, that's a big chunk of US users
raydiak oh good, I needed to ask nine++ some Inline:: questions anyway :)
no kidding. not much for other options in this state, unfortunately. I had better service in Texas. but is the other guy who reported this problem also on comcast? 21:55
rba raydiak: unfortunately complains so fare are only from US side...
raydiak: I have tried to send some pvt messages to ask them for more details, yet haven't reached them yet.
raydiak rba: I recall you mentioning that. I'm very curious as to the geographic correlation, given that we supposedly have free and unmangled access to the whole internet here. no great firewall or nannystate or what have you 21:57
rba raydiak: Froogal had issues last week, and tbrowder reported some earlier, yet now seems to be fine.
I will let the "info" level on the nginx error log and have a look during the week. This shows the ssl error codes. And maybe I got some more feedback. 21:58
codesections here's the chat of when this came up before. colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_lo...03-10#l277 tbrowder said their ISP is cox cable
rba is not sure if this are all the same problems... 21:59
codesections good point
raydiak ah. cox is an entirely separate provider from comcast. we used to have cox cable tv where I am many many years ago, before they offered internet, but then they got replaced by comcast here 22:00
rba Anyway, don't hesitate to report the issues. I will collect all of them and see what I can do.
tbrowder rba: cox cable here in nw florida, destin are, i just went to the site and got white page with no css apparently 22:02
rba 2021/03/14 22:02:36 [info] 4633#4633: *3067 peer closed connection in SSL handshake (104: Connection reset by peer) while SSL handshaking, client:, server: 22:03
tbrowder: this might be your ip?
tbrowder docs home page, then clicking on any link gives me the tls error
raydiak rba: the matching (but not matching) packet captures are the best data we have so far. file that with youre provider? failing that, I would be willing to try to contact comcast, but they're a very large and difficult to work with company. I'll have to spend hours explaining it to service reps talking a script over and over to eventually get escalated to anybody who even understands what a packet is, probably
just for them to say "not our fault, good luck"
tbrowder yes, that's my ip 22:05
rba Same with docs.rakulang.site/ ? 22:07
tbrowder that site shows well, no probs
rba tbrowder: This is so crazy. As it's on the same server, same nginx, even same certificate and same config part. 22:08
Is there some "transparent caching proxy" somewhere in between? 22:09
tbrowder both have no mixed http/https?
rba tbrowder: there is no rocket science. gist.github.com/rba/c11feff2a67fe3...e32ba036dc 22:11
tbrowder why are you listening on 80 22:13
rba tbrowder: to redirect to https 22:14
tbrowder i think you need to reject http, forget listening on 80
i think that's part of the problem 22:15
rba tbrowder: I don't understand, why you think this is part of the problem. Yet, let me comment it quicky and you try again... 22:16
tbrowder i'm certainly no expert, but i have my servers non-80 because of racommendations i've seen from qualys and such places 22:17
rba tbrowder: please try again.
tbrowder chrome and firefox are really picky now
rba tbrowder: log looks not better now... :-( 22:18
tbrowder let me clear cache
no go, guess that makes no diff 22:20
raydiak nothing different here. and it still doesn't explain why it works except for some people in the US 22:21
tbrowder can you try reversing order of server names?
parabolize it seems to be working for me through comcast 22:22
rba tbrowder: reversed and restarted, try again. 22:23
raydiak parabolize: just as a datapoint, approximately where are you?
rba: no effect here
tbrowder no diff, weird! 22:24
rba I think some packages are lost on the way between *some* people in US and the hosting server in austria.
parabolize raydiak: colorado
raydiak where are you, tbrowder?
tbrowder niceville, florida, near destin 22:25
raydiak wow...I'm in the opposite corner, WA state
rba reverted the hostname order and enabled port 80 again in nginx config
raydiak broken in WA and FL, but not broken in CO and CA
and broken for one comcast user and not the other, but broken for a cox user also. don't know who/what my server in CA gets its connectivity through, it's a digitalocean server and the docs site is not broken from there 22:28
tbrowder ok, at least the other adddress works. how about yr cert, wild card or? 22:29
raydiak it's a non-wildcard multi-domain cert
rba is giving up for today. 22:30
tbrowder hm, have you tried separate certs for each domain? that's what i do 22:31
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raydiak in chorme at least, you can see the details from the lock icon on the left of the address bar. multi-domain is under certificate->extensions->certificate subject alternate name 22:31
rba btw raku.org/rakudo.org is on the same server. any issues there? 22:33
raydiak tbrowder: that's the only difference I've noticed so far, but it really should work. even if you establish a valid connection at docs.rakusite.lang, in chrome the persistent connection to the server will work for docs.raku.org until it times out. the handshake only fails on that one domain, but everything else works except for the handshake
both work from here 22:34
rba sorry, nosense. both are behind CDN proxies from cloudflare. 22:35
raydiak yes they both show as cloudflare certs, unlike the docs cert
tbrowder i'll try some more debugging here later (on a real computer). thanks for your help, rba
as long as i can see the other site all is well 22:36
rba For docs.raku.org I have enabled Cloudeflare CDN again. Should be active in a few minutes. Yet we had the problems with enabled CDN already last week. So I don't know... 22:37
tbrowder from my house
raydiak rba: those two both have sni.cloudflaressl.com as a cert SAN, but the docs cert does not...only SANs are docs.raku.org and docs.rakusite.lang 22:39
rba Cloudflare can be used as "DNS only" or "Proxied". Last week I have changed docs.raku.org from "Proxied" to "DNS only". docs.rakulang.site is always on "DNS only". 22:41
And a few seconds ago I have changed docs.raku.org back to "Proxied". Let's see if this changes something.
raydiak I recall you changing that a few days agoi. It did nothing for the issue I've been observing all year. That's why I'm so mystified. There shouldn't be anything causing the problem, and your own packet captures show you senting a valid ServerHello, which I never receive. THe problem is in between, I suspect. 22:44
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