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Set by lizmat on 23 May 2021.
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raydiak leont++ I just finished watching your syntax talk, great job showing off awesome features in an approachable way 00:04
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[Coke] looks like an E<mdash> in POD is converted to an mdash when generating html, but not when running raku --doc 01:38
see docs.raku.org/language/101-basics vs. (clone raku docs and) raku --doc doc/Language/101-basics.pod6 | grep mdash
(this is causing an error in the spelling tests for the docs, because operatorE<mdash>a is rendering as "operatormdasha" instead of "operator—a" 01:39
Seems like this is a rakudo bug.
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cnx re `add $*HOME: '.cache'`: moritz, I expected it to give the same result as `$*HOME.add: '.cache'` 03:15
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moritz cnx: and instead you get...? 05:07
tellable6 moritz, I'll pass your message to cnx
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raydiak m: say $*HOME.add: '.cache'; say add $*HOME: '.cache'; # cnx 07:41
camelia "/home/camelia/.cache".IO
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raydiak if you're getting different results, there are 3 probable causes off the top of my head: (1) much looser precedence of the second form interacting unexpectedly with whatever is around it, (2) an outdated rakudo with a bug, or (3) an overlooked discrepancy elsewhere in your code 07:55
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cnx no worries I think I tried it with something .IO without the parenthesis and was confused by the error 07:58
tellable6 2021-06-11T05:07:44Z #raku <moritz> cnx: and instead you get...?
cnx Undeclared routine: add 07:59
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raydiak glad you figured it out 08:00
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cnx thanks (-; 08:01
btw is github.com/MoarVM/MoarVM/issues/433 still a problem on Windows 08:02
I saw the relevant commit being reverted and I'm not familiar with windows' lib
(it's still an issue on POSIX though)
patrickb o/ 08:03
cnx o/
raydiak \o
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raydiak idk, I don't run windows 08:05
patrickb I'm writing a method trait that needs some persistent storage that is object and method local (i.e. each method that has the trait applied should have its own storage, two objects of the same type -> two separate storage places). Can I somehow dynamically tack on a variable on to an object? 08:08
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moritz make that extra object an attribute? 08:20
or you could use a mixin
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patrickb moritz: Can I dynamically add attributes? 08:21
patrickb reads up on mixins 08:22
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moritz m: class A { has $.x }; role ExtraAttribute { $.extra = 42 }; my $a = A.new: :x(3); $a does ExtraAttribute; say $a.extra 08:24
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable $.extra used where no 'self' is available
at <tmp>:1
------> 3has $.x }; role ExtraAttribute { $.extra7⏏5 = 42 }; my $a = A.new: :x(3); $a does E
expecting any of:
moritz m: class A { has $.x }; role ExtraAttribute { has $.extra = 42 }; my $a = A.new: :x(3); $a does ExtraAttribute; say $a.extra
camelia 42
moritz m: class A { has $.x }; role ExtraAttribute { has $.extra = 42 }; my $a = A.new: :x(3); $a does ExtraAttribute(23); say $a.extra
camelia 23
raydiak could probably also use a state hash keyed on .WHICH instead of attached to the object 08:26
kinda like a p5 inside-out object 08:27
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raydiak m: multi trait_mod:<is> (Method $m, :$t) { $m.wrap: -> |a { state %o; say %o{a[0].WHICH} //= rand; callsame; } }; class C { method m is t { } }; my $a = C.new; my $b = C.new; $a.m; $a.m; $b.m; $b.m; 08:32
camelia 0.3498273627434584
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raydiak then again, that wouldn't get garbage-collected 08:42
patrickb m: role Store { has %.store; }; multi sub trait_mod:<is>(Method:D $m, :$serial-dedup) { say "wrapping"; $m.wrap(my method ($obj:) { if !$obj.does(Store) { $obj does Store }; say $obj.store{$m.name}++; callsame()} ); }; class C {method m() is serial-dedup { say "m()" }; method n() is serial-dedup { say "n()" } }; my C $c .= new; $c.m; $c.m; $c.n 08:49
camelia wrapping
patrickb Thanks everyone! 08:50
raydiak thanks for sharing the interesting question :) 08:51
if this is for use with other people's classes/roles, keep in mind that'll mask out a .store method if one exists in class C 08:55
lizmat raydiak: using a hash with .WHICH as a key, is not thread safe, you should keep that in mind 08:56
or any hash, for that matter:-)
raydiak ah, another good point against it 08:57
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guifa I don't suppose anyone has any ancient versions of Mac OS X laying around that could test something for me? 15:32
Altreus I'm not going to admit to that 15:38
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Altreus Although I'm not sure the computer works so I actually shouldn't 15:38
how ancient is ancient?
guifa Altreus: eh, I mean, if you had it still running public beta that'd be cool :-) 15:40
Altreus it's an intel chip so I guess no 15:41
guifa I'm switching to a new method for grabbing user information in one of my modules. The way I'd been getting it via shell commands has worked for … many a version, but I recently found out isn't considered a formal API.
Altreus Wait, was OSX always on intel?
guifa Nope, on PPC originally. 15:42
Altreus ah, yeah I had a PPC but it was shafted so I put debian on it
guifa So now I'm making Foundation calls via NativeCall but I'm not clear how far back those work (certainly the core ones, but I'll want to put in a version guard for the one or two that I know weren't available in PB times) 15:44
Altreus alas I am unable to satisfy your minimum age requirement 15:45
or ... maximum
That's a matter of perspective
codesections That is some _commitment_ to backwards compatibility
guifa codesections: honestly, more of curiosity. I legit don't know when Apple added a few calls. 15:46
But I'm really interested in beefing up the UserLanguage and UserTimezone modules (and probably down the road, similar UserFoo stuff) and NativeCall is definitely the way to go for Windows and Mac for best long term stability 15:48
MasterDuke34 i have an old mac mini, i think it's running lion, but i haven't turned it on in over a year 15:51
could give it a try later tonight or this weekend if you're still in need 15:52
Altreus Might have to be both if you need to compile raku on it :D
MasterDuke34 hm, you know, don't think i ever have on it (yet) 15:53
guifa My update to UserLanguage doesn't just get me ast-US like it used to, but now it does ast-Latn-US-t-ca-gregory-co-trad-fw-sun-ms-ussystem 15:59
I'll finally be able to produce proper output for DateTime::Format
Altreus what the heck 16:01
Nice of them to abbreviate some of those :P 16:02
guifa i love the "gregory" for gregorian. BCP47 says each element can only be max 8 characters 16:03
Altreus Strange constraint but OK 16:05
guifa right? The weirder one is the total max length of 256 characters (including hyphens), but NO restriction on number of subtags 16:07
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m6locks how do I create a 2dim array? the examples that I see using rotor don't seem to work with my array that is supposed to be filled with booleans 19:29
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m6locks in java it's merely new boolean[rows][cols]; 19:30
guifa m6locks: what code do you have right now? 19:31
m6locks nothing
I tried my Bool @matrix = <False xx $rows*$cols>.rotor($rows); 19:32
guifa aaaah
okay so it's making an array BUT
you've typed it, and rotor doesn't return it typed
m6locks ah
guifa my ($rows, $cols) = 3, 3; my @matrix = <False xx $rows*$cols>.rotor($rows); say @matrix[1][2]; 19:33
evalable6 (Any)
guifa err
m6locks aye it works if I remove the Bool
guifa well, it almost does. You need () not < >
<False xx $rows*$cols> produces a list of string elements, "False", "xx", and "$rows*$cols" 19:35
m6locks my @matrix = [False xx 3*3].rotor(3); say @matrix[1][2];
evalable6 False
m6locks I'll use that one 19:36
guifa if you want to type: 19:39
my Array[Bool] @matrix = Array[Array[Bool]].new(Array[Bool].new(False xx $cols) xx $rows); say @matrix[1][2]
m: my Array[Bool] @matrix = Array[Array[Bool]].new(Array[Bool].new(False xx $cols) xx $rows); say @matrix[1][2]
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Variable '$cols' is not declared. Did you mean '&cos'?
at <tmp>:1
------> 3ray[Bool]].new(Array[Bool].new(False xx 7⏏5$cols) xx $rows); say @matrix[1][2]
guifa err duh I'd need to define the cols and rows ha 19:40
m6locks aye that's consistent with other constructs being typed 19:43
raydiak there's also shaped arrays 19:47
m: my Bool @a[3;3]; @a = False xx 3 xx 3; say @a.raku 19:48
camelia Array[Bool].new(:shape(3, 3), [Bool::False, Bool::False, Bool::False], [Bool::False, Bool::False, Bool::False], [Bool::False, Bool::False, Bool::False])
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Xliff \o 20:27
Is there a way to find proto methods in a list of Method objects?
I would have thought that would have been a method on Routine.
Or Method itself.
codesections does this do what you want? (I'm not quite sure I know what you're looking for) 20:33
m: my class C { proto method foo(|) {*}; multi method foo(Str) { 'str'}; multi method foo(Int) {42}}; say C.^methods.grep({.candidates».multi})
camelia (foo BUILDALL)
[Coke] (mac) I'm on 10.15.7, which isn't ancient, but is a major rev back. 20:40
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Xliff codesections: How many times is foo mentioned in .^methods? 20:42
codesections foo is mentioned once, which referees to the proto (e.g., it has a .signature of (|)). foo.candidates returns 2 foo (multi) methods 20:43
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Xliff Ah! OK. I found repeat methods in my .^methods output. Turns out those were put there by Method::Also. 20:49
Just hacked in a way to identify these.
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codesections interesting. I don't think I've ever used Method::Also. I take it that's what you get from the `also is` declarator? 21:03
Xliff 'is also', yes 21:04
codesections ? so not docs.raku.org/language/classtut#Th...declarator 21:06
m: my class C { also is Int }
camelia ( no output )
raydiak no, not that (though I like that syntax) 21:08
Xliff is using modules.raku.org/dist/Method::Also...:ELIZABETH
codesections ahhh, I see! 21:09
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raydiak personally quite fond of 'also is/does' though. looks cleaner to me a lot of the time. nice to have the traits and inheritance/composition stuff inside the curly braces instead of tacked on to the name, imo 21:17
codesections m: my class C { method raku {note '.raku called' ''}}; C.new eqv C.new 21:18
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Two terms in a row
at <tmp>:1
------> 3ass C { method raku {note '.raku called'7⏏5 ''}}; C.new eqv C.new
expecting any of:
infix stopper
codesections m: my class C { method raku {note '.raku called'; ''}}; C.new eqv C.new
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of "eqv" in expression ".new eqv C.new" in sink context (line 1)
.raku called
.raku called
codesections wait, ??? why is eqv calling .raku? I thought (and the docs indicate) it was for structural equivalence, not string comparison 21:19
I guess that's from github.com/rakudo/rakudo/blob/mast...1204-L1209 21:21
but strikes me as very odd 21:22
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codesections m: my class C { has $.a; method raku {note '.raku called'; ''}}; say C.new(:a<Yes>) eqv C.new(:a<No!>) 21:26
camelia .raku called
.raku called
raydiak that is kinda interesting. it's comparing .raku output instead of inspecting the objects with the MOP 21:34
guifa raydiak: I prefer the also is/does when I have unit scoped things, and when the role/class applied needn't pollute the outer symbol table 21:35
codesections: basically, it's the fallback for comparison. The idea is that .raku should have the information needed to reconstruct an object, hence being an adequate (if potentially imperfect) fallback
codesections Yeah, I *guess* I get that. (Though, as shown above, it can break if uses don't realize that and do something they shouldn't with .raku output (tempting for people who want more readable .raku/dd output)). And it means we *really* need things to round trip correctly (which is spec, but there are a lot of open bugs) 21:37
raydiak it does feel a touch unexpected. otoh, no more unexpected than a raku method having side-effects like printing output 21:38
codesections But, more to the point, *why*? Why are we falling back on .raku comparisons so early? It seems like we're not trying something like .^attributes recursively 21:39
guifa .^attributes could potentially catch things that are unnecessary, e.g., an internal-use-only UUID, that would autofail the eqv. I think that's the point of .raku, since it's only the relevant bits of data 21:40
my only issue with eqv is that it's very hard to create custom eqv methods 21:41
codesections hmmm, I *think* I disagree. If two objects have a different UUID, it seems like they shouldn't be eqv (though they could compare equal in other ways) 21:42
guifa note I said internal uuid
raydiak my main concern would be that someone might make a custom .raku with non-deterministic output. e.g. iterating over an internal hash without sorting the keys
guifa raydiak: that's something that should be noted for developers, absolutely
class A { }; my $a = A.new; my $b = A.new; say $a.WHERE == $b.WHERE 21:43
evalable6 False
guifa WHERE or WHICH are basically UUIDs, but irrelevant for comparison
codesections Yeah. But a u_u_id seems like it's there precisely to be able to tell objects apart, no?
but not attributes 21:44
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raydiak eqv isn't supposed to tell objects apart. it's supposed to tell the value of objects apart. and what constitutes the "value" of an object depends on what it is and how it's meant to be used. === tells objects apart 21:45
codesections right, I get that; sorry for the sloppy terminology :) 21:46
guifa raydiak: exactly. And .raku isn't supposed to create the identical object, just an identically valued object. The internal attributes may or may not contribute to that, though.
but the .raku output, properly created, should
codesections Maybe my fundamental issue is expressed by the comment above the code I linked: «# Last ditch snapshot semantics. We shouldn't come here too often» Right now, we come there by default for pretty much every user-created type 21:47
guifa codesections: I wouldn't disagree about that. We just don't have a great equivalency protocol, but I'm also not sure how to create one 21:48
Right now the options are: (a) creative a custom infix:<eqv>($a, $b) for the types, or (b) ensure .raku output is identical 21:49
(a) will only work when you can have the module in scope, which is to say you can never rely on outside code to properly calculate the equivalency 21:50
(b) well, you've already seen the potential downsides to that one
guifa . o O are my language tags getting too crazy? new sample lol: es-ES-t-ca-gregory-co-trad-cu-eur-fw-sun-ms-metric-tz-usnyc ) 21:51
raydiak maybe a trait to flag an attribute for exclusion from eqv and .raku?
codesections Maybe we should make `is implementation detail` be applicable to attributes
guifa d 21:52
codesections raydiak: we're thinking along the same lines, clearly :D
raydiak great minds and all that, right? :D 21:53
guifa So .... how do we properly do eqv for this one? :-)  class Length { has $.unit; has $.quantity }
This is a case where you'd even want the unit and quantity in the .raku output, but you'd want two things to be found potentially eqv. 21:54
guifa figures if we're gonna muck with eqv, we probably should look at all angles
vrurg It worth a problem-solving. What if eqv optionally bypasses to object's 'EQUALS' method, similar to how smarmatch uses ACCEPTS? I already see a problem here, but still think it's worthful to consider. 21:55
codesections is that a trick question? Length $a and Length $b are eqv iff $a.unit eqv $b.unit && $a.quantity eqv $b.quantity
guifa codesections: I don't think it is
Length.new( :unit<meter>, :1quantity ) should be equivalent to Length.new( :unit<centimeter>, :100quantity ) 21:56
raydiak hrm. make both implementation-detail, and add $.value = $!length * $!quantity ? idk, good example
vrurg Two objects are not necessarily to be of the same type of be equivalent. Think of a point in Polar and Cartesian representations. 21:57
moon-child I think you want to map :unit<centix> :quantity(y) to :unit<x> :quantity(y/100)
codesections Hmm, I'd actually say those shouldn't be eqv, but should be ==
moon-child or possibly to :unit<x> :quantity(y) :ratio(1/100) 21:58
codesections m: my Num $a = 1.Num; my Int $b = 1; say $a eqv $b; say $a == $b 21:59
camelia False
vrurg codesections: I had to refresh my memory and you're right. eqv is first of all about type equivalency.
codesections guifa's Length example is trickier, in that both are Lengths. But I'd still say they're not eqv 22:01
(Though I freely admit that's pushing against the meaning of the English word 'equivalent' a bit!) 22:02
guifa and regardless, the inability to specify a custom eqv except in specific, non-dynamic scopes, is problematic
codesections Agreed. 22:03
vrurg's .EQUALS idea (.EQUIVALENT ?) would be one way to get at that 22:04
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guifa Since the type equivalency is required, it actually shouldn't be as problematic 22:05
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guifa was thinking something like == or cmp or eq need symmetry, but that's hard to define if the types can be different 22:07
moon-child m: my \*x 22:08
camelia 5===SORRY!5=== Error while compiling <tmp>
Malformed my
at <tmp>:1
------> 3my7⏏5 \*x
moon-child why not? Syntactic ambiguity with *x?
vrurg There is one thing to keep in mind though. ~~ is asymmetric. But eqv is commutative. So, if a method is used we must ensure that both side methods are giving True
guifa vrurg: yeah, but since eqv requires type equivalency, then a type can ensure that its method EQUIV() is symmetric, since it would only be passed its own type 22:10
codesections guifa: and I guess as a corollary to the point you made re: custom eqv, Test::is-deeply will never use a custom eqv with the current system, right? 22:14
vrurg guifa: Likely so. Apparently, one can always break the rule, but then it'd be up to him to take the responsibility for such design.
guifa codesections: correct. No way to force your eqv method into Test's is-deeply 22:15
codesections There is cmp-ok, but yeah... 22:16
guifa Cmp lets you specify the method… but if you compare two lists of objects, they won't know to use your special method in comparing their contents 22:17
they = the lists
you'd have to write a full comparison function, but then you could just do 'ok myspecialmethod($a, $b)'
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codesections yeah. I guess you could do `all .map({cmp-ok($a, &[eqv], $b)})`. But that's just a short/inline comparison function 22:20
guifa (this is, incidentally, an issue with most operators, and I'm not sure a great design solution. If I have a custom infix:<+> for my type, there's no way to have it propogate) 22:21
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codesections yeah. Many languages solve that by having $a + $b compile to $a.infix_plus_operator($b), but that makes the order of the operands determinate 22:23
guifa I mean, technically it's determinate for infix:<+>($a, $b) too 22:24
codesections True enough 22:25
guifa m: class A {}; class B {}; multi sub infix:<+>(A $, B $) { say "a plus b" }; B + A
camelia WARNINGS for <tmp>:
Useless use of "+" in expression "B + A" in sink context (line 1)
Use of uninitialized value of type B in numeric context
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
Use of uninitialized value of type A in numeric context
in bloc…
guifa I think you could just wrap it to try to get first dibs on the operators, but that'd be an extra check at runtime 22:26
codesections I guess my point was that Raku lets you do something like sub infix:<+>(Int $a, MyType $b) {...} and have 1 + MyType.new work, which isn't true for languages where that'd call Int.infix_plus 22:27
But only if you're in the right scope to define _any_ infix:<+> 22:28
moon-child some languages will let you instead call MyType.opposite_size_infix_plus
...but that's even worse, because you can have multiple candidates
codesections was that a typo for opposite_sides? 22:29
if not, I don't get it
moon-child yeah
guifa So I wonder 22:32
multi sub infix:<+>($a, $b) is dynamic { … } ?
nope, doesn't work 22:33
codesections some of these solutions seem like they'd fit a lot better if we're talking about what gets called by the infix:<OPERATOR> in Mu. If there's an infix in the calling scope above that, it could still overide it lexically
guifa but dynamic is specifically called out as being unknown for subs. Maybe that could be enabled. After all, I can probably much more easily ensure a custom operator is in my call chain 22:34
codesections What about ~ ? 22:35
moon-child guifa: if you could do that optimization would suffer a lot 22:36
guifa moon-child: yeah, no doubt 22:44
moon-child thoughts on adding an is assoc<ambivalent> or similar? It would allow .race.reduce to work in parallel, as well as allowing for potentially better register allocation 22:49
codesections hmm, the docs call out assoc<non> as illegal. Was this discussed before? 22:51
(I like the idea in general, though -- .race.reduce _should_ be able to work in parallel for associative ops) 22:52
(and does in many languages)
er, maybe assoc<non> was the opposite? Would this be more like assoc<yes> :D? 22:53
moon-child no assoc<non> is different. if O is assoc<non>, then a O b O c is illegal. if O is assoc<ambivalent>, then (a O b) O c is the same as a O (b O c)
codesections ok, yeah, I like the idea and can't think of any immediate issues (though I'm hardly an expert in the related areas!) 22:55
m6locks m: my $precision = 9; my $a = '%0' ~ $precision ~ 'd'; say $a.printf(35.base(2)).comb; 22:56
camelia 000100011(T r u e)
m6locks m: my $precision = 9; my $a = '%0' ~ $precision ~ 'd'; say $a.printf(35.base(2));
camelia 000100011True
m6locks where's the True coming from? 22:57
I'd just like to have leading zeros in a binary number
moon-child m: my $precision = 9; my $a = '%0' ~ $precision ~ 'd'; $a.printf(35.base(2)); 22:58
camelia 000100011
moon-child m: my $precision = 9; my $a = '%0' ~ $precision ~ 'd'; say $a.sprintf(35.base(2));
camelia 000100011
codesections you probably want sprintf: docs.raku.org/language/independent...ne_sprintf
m6locks ah, ok. thanks
moon-child ^^ two ways to do it
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m6locks yes, now it works 22:59
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SmokeMachine Does anyone know where in Documentable it does test the =code snippets from the documentation? 23:45