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Set by lizmat on 25 August 2021.
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japhb Apropos of previous discussion about Data::MessagePack, I've added support for it (and also the MessagePack decode-only module) to serializer-perf (raku.land/zef:japhb/App::SerializerPerf). At the moment its tests can cause Rakudo/MoarVM to throw some very interesting errors, and I can't try on latest Rakudo until File::Directory::Tree is working again. 05:15
Example error fun: "MoarVM panic: Tried to garbage-collect a locked mutex" and "Bytecode validation error at offset 54, instruction 9: register operand index 54 out of range 0..3" 05:16
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guifa japhb that bytecode validation error sounds familiar… 05:55
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guifa japhb it'd probably be a lot of work, but if you can golf that down, maybe nine can take a look at it 06:06
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japhb Lemme see what I can figure out 06:16
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japhb m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL buf8.allocate(65530).raku # At (2**16 - 6), works on my system 06:23
m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL buf8.allocate(65530).raku # At (2**16 - 6), works on my system 06:24
camelia ( no output )
japhb m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL buf8.allocate(65531).raku # At (2**16 - 5), first group of errors
camelia Bytecode validation error at offset 524410, instruction 65554:
operand type 64 does not match register type 56 for op wval in frame <unit>
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
japhb m: use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; EVAL buf8.allocate(65533).raku # At (2**16 - 3), second group of errors 06:25
camelia Bytecode validation error at offset 54, instruction 9:
register operand index 54 out of range 0..3
in block <unit> at <tmp> line 1
japhb guifa: ^^
I'm assuming the .raku produces something with too many params for the EVAL to handle -- but it shouldn't crash like that, and those errors are LTA to say the least. 06:26
Haven't figured out the locked mutex problem yet 06:27
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MasterDuke japhb: `use MONKEY-SEE-NO-EVAL; use YAMLish; my $buf = buf8.allocate(100_000); my $raku = $buf.raku; my $yaml = save-yaml $buf; for ^5 { say $_; try EVAL $raku; load-yaml $yaml }` causes a "Tried to garbage-collect a locked mutex" (or at least it did a little while ago 07:30
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El_Che lizmat: ping 10:08
lizmat pong 10:09
El_Che I am looking at the twitter communities
got access
lizmat nice!
El_Che go's is The Go Programming Language
perl's is Perl
let's go with The Raku Programming Language?
lizmat although it's a bit hard for me to be enthusiastic about anything this morning :-(
El_Che yeah :/
lizmat El_Che: yes, please
El_Che where is our be nice page? 10:10
lizmat our be nice page ? 10:11
El_Che the be nice
code of conduct in 1 line :) 10:12
lizmat aah...
github.com/Raku/Raku-Steering-Coun...conduct.md I guess
El_Che that's a terrible url 10:13
I'll write be nice for now
lizmat 2 members now 10:14
El_Che I added to the mod team
lizmat yeah, saw it :-) 10:15
El_Che communities does not have the name in the url, just a number, but better to promote 1 10:18
we'll see if twitter communities stays 10:19
Nemokosch > refusing to follow the exiting CoC is not 10:25
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lizmat weekly: twitter.com/i/communities/1496790379554824193/ 11:09
notable6 lizmat, Noted! (weekly)
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Nemokosch > For instance, the Raku community would be neither inclusive nor enjoyable if it welcomed people who post racist screeds to their personal sites, no matter how assiduously they attempted to separate those statements from their Raku activities. 12:02
and I think this sounds kinda creepy
lizmat the world is a messy place :-( 12:05
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Nemokosch everything fine, liz? 12:29
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lizmat no 12:33
my mother was a refugee, fleeing from the Russians 77 years ago, much like many people in the Ukraine are fleeing now 12:34
so no, today is not a good day :-(
Nemokosch aww :c 12:35
lizmat I was born in the year Russia invaded Hungary 12:37
and distinctly remember Russia invading Czechoslovakia in 1968, basically lifting Dubcek from power 12:39
it looks like last night they tried the same with Zelensky, but failed
at least, so far :-( 12:40
El_Che lizmat: I have seen and studied the same scenario done by the other side of the coin, sadly
I hope the fleeing Ucranians will be well received (we've seen the indifference towards the sinking boats the last few years)
lizmat point taken 12:41
El_Che I saw Putin had unusual support in the NL: FVD and PVV 12:43
Nemokosch It's never those people who suffer the most who caused it
lizmat I can't help but think that historians hundreds of years from now, will look upon the early 21 century as the time when white male dominance was striking back for the last time
yeah, FvD is for sure on Russia's payroll 12:44
El_Che lizmat: a am feminist enough to think there will be female imperialist leaders in the future :)
lizmat well, I for one welcome our future female imperialist overlords :-)
El_Che Well, Putin's party is according to their manifest Russian conservative and nationalist, so that I can understand 12:45
where it's get funny is how the far right in Twitter is celebrating Putin's "anti-wokeness"
lizmat any female imperialist overlord will at least know how it is to give live, rather than take it 12:46
Nemokosch what does that have to do with white male dominance again...
lizmat that's not funny... that's part of the same mind-set
"In Russia they all know how to go to the right bathroom. And in Russia they only have 2 genders" Bannon
Nemokosch if anything, this narrative caused damage 12:47
it threw loads of people to populists
I mean yes, don't you ask yourself what the use of this genderistan was
El_Che What concerns me baby more that there are sign of that crazyness elsewhere. I saw some news about Texas 12:48
Nemokosch It's so overwhelmingly counterfactual to most people that many people will side with those who just oppose it
lizmat afk for a bit&
El_Che lizmat: keep sane
lizmat: so something to take your mind off the situation for a bit
Nemokosch I think wokeness is a legitimate ideological problem that is so bizarre to many people (possibly the majority) that you should seriously think whether it's useful to label everyone far-right who doesn't roll with it 12:51
The thing is more like, we should just stop talking about it for a minute or two, and turn our attention to something... more important
El_Che Nemokosch#9980: the examples we metion (FVD in NL) and Bannon are not far-right because they fixation on "woke". They present the all enchilada 12:53
El_Che programming for a bit; afk
Nemokosch I don't know what "all the enchilada" is, I only know that everyone who doesn't welcome mass migration, gay marriage and the likes tend to be automatically called "far right" 12:54
lizmat El_Che: it's hard 13:22
and why would one not want to support "gay marriage" ? 13:23
"family values" ?
sorry, getting off-topic here :-(
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El_Che hugs lizmat
perryprog here is cat: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/com...nlight.jpg 13:32
lizmat thanks :-)
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perryprog and here is dog if you're not a cat person ( >:( ) upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/com..._grass.jpg 13:33
lizmat definitely a cat person: bulleke.nl 13:34
that was our first cat.. at the vet, he scared the other dogs :-)
perryprog cat!
lizmat s/other//
Nemokosch > why would one not want to support 13:41
well, for example because it mashes a legal+economical institution with a religious+reproductional institution
I think it should be enough that there can be reasons
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leont I suspect Pod::To::Pager needs to be adopted by community modules 14:03
Annoyingly, I can't find any repository for it to adopt 14:04
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lizmat we can take the most recent tar file and start a repo with that 14:10
leont: OOC, why does it need to be adopted? Is the author unresponsive ?
leont I thought he left the community, I haven't tried to contact him myself
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patrickb[] leont: git.tyil.nl/ 14:15
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japhb MasterDuke: Can confirm that your locked mutex golf does indeed throw that MoarVM panic on my machine as well -- looks like in the second iteration. 14:29
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nine Nemokosch#9980: I am married (heterosecually) and both of us are decidedly unreligious and we do not have children. People like us make your argument moot. The debate is strictly about the legal+economical institution. Religions (all several thousands of them) may define their own rituals in their way. 15:36
Nemokosch#9980: people who endorse far right positions will have to live with being labled far-right. If that bothers them, they can always re-think their positions. Getting labled that way may just be a wake up call that someone has lost their way. That's ok. We all make decisions that we'd rather change later. 15:39
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patrickb[] I think a big part of the difficulty of the marriage discussion is not being clear about the "strictly about the legal+economical institution" part. The "define marriage" bit is missing I many discussions I have observed. It's made more difficult by there actually being discussions and controvercies of same-sex marriage (the religious sort) in multiple large churches. 15:49
lizmat to me, not allowing two people to get married when they want to be, is a very basic form of discrimination 15:50
if two people pledge to take care of each other, there should be no legal barrier preventing just that 15:51
and any other type of legal agreement that doesn't carry the same benefits as a legal marriage, is a stopgap measure at best 15:52
[Coke] If you have a problem with the religious approval of some marriages, take it up with your church. If you have a problem with the civil aspect... tough. Making sure everyone has rights doesn't take away your rights.
Nemokosch > People like us make your argument moot. The debate is strictly about the legal+economical institution
I'm not sure if it's required to use the term "marriage" then. I'm not sure if there is much meaning in calling your relation "marriage" either but I don't see how that turns into an argument for "gay marriage", or why it even should
> people who endorse far right positions will have to live with being labled far-right. If that bothers them, they can always re-think their positions 15:53
okay, I will try to help you understand the problem
take someone from the woke culture and say
"people who endorse marxist positions will have to live with being labelled marxist. If that bothers them, they can always re-think their positions" 15:54
lizmat goes silent again 15:56
patrickb[] [Coke]: I agree.
Nemokosch it's not really constructive to define people who don't follow _your_ particular value system as the bogeyman of your ideology
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unless of course you are looking for further radicalisation 15:57
[Coke] Trying to bring this back to #raku - do you have an actual problem with the community guidelines? 15:59
patrickb[] fears the possibility of this discussion escalating, but is hopefull as #raku tends to be good at coping with difficult discussions.
Nemokosch I don't know why remarks of "white male supremacy" are required about the Russian offensive 16:02
Anyway, I pointed out a typo and an abusable part of the code of conduct 16:03
[Coke] what's the typo, sorry?
perryprog Re CoC: I feel it's pretty blatantly obvious that the idea of same-gender marriage not being okay legally/civilly/whateverly is quite against the CoC, and correctly so, so I'm not sure why we keep coming back to that portion of the conversation.
Nemokosch there was an "exiting" instead of an "existing" somewhere 16:04
Well there should be nothing obvious about it
[Coke] If you could open a ticket (or submit a PR) or the typo, that'd be great.
perryprog I got it [Coke]
[Coke] perryprog++ # thanks 16:05
Geth Raku-Steering-Council: perryprog++ created pull request #47:
CoC: Existing, not exiting
perryprog I mean, it's not really an abusable part of the CoC, in my opinion. It's a guideline, not a DnD ruleset that needs to be followed to the most literal level humanly possible. 16:06
Anton Antonov Where I can find the Raku "community guidelines"? (I made 2 min search with Google without getting anything that explicitly states them ...)
perryprog it's github.com/Raku/Raku-Steering-Coun...conduct.md
Nemokosch The problem is that those people who consistently stand up for freedom of speech and opinion eventually end up with the whole skinhead/diehard anti-semitic conspiracist part of the internet
perryprog I'm not sure I get what point that generalization is trying to make, sorry 16:07
Nemokosch but in my opinion, that's no reason for legalizing virtual inquisition 16:08
Anton Antonov @perryprog Thanks! (Should have read more carefully the messages above...)
perryprog np
Nemokosch I think I quoted that part but I will look it up again
[Coke] In my experience, people complaining about being lumped in with the nazis should try doing less nazi stuff. It's not that "the woke left" is picking a bad name to call them based on nothing. But this is way off topic. If you have something specific to add about the COC, great. 16:09
If you don't want to follow the CoC, that's also fine, but then you can leave.
And having dropped that... back to $dayjob here for a while. Good luck, woke leftie marxists, keep fighting the good fight. 16:10
Anton Antonov This link is broken: github.com/Raku/Raku-Steering-Coun...papers/CoC
Nemokosch > For instance, the Raku community would be neither inclusive nor enjoyable if it welcomed people who post racist screeds to their personal sites, no matter how assiduously they attempted to separate those statements from their Raku activities.
I get that this sounds like rightful elimination of all evil to those who are living with this mindset
But this seems quite creepy a couple of lines under talking about "stalking"
perryprog I don't follow. What's your issue with that statement? 16:11
Nemokosch Mainly that it's noone's business what someone holds "separate" 16:12
perryprog That's not true, and the justification is right there. If I started hosting a Neo-nazi white supremacy blog then it doesn't matter what I'm doing here 16:13
guifa The idea is quite simple (and I guess we've already been Godwin'd): it doesn't matter how technically amazing at Raku that Hitler was, he wouldn't be welcome. No Jew, Roma, or LGBT member would feel remotely safe in Raku spaces.
perryprog ^^ 16:14
Nemokosch Do you pose this as an axiom or do you have something for it?
perryprog is done with this convo
Just have to step out, sorry 16:15
Nemokosch But as we all know, it's not really realistic having to deal with a stereotypical Hitler image in the Raku community 16:16
Anton Antonov @guifa This is sort of a related discussion: linux.slashdot.org/story/22/02/23/...ux-in-2022
Nemokosch Therefore I don't think this analogy can be applied to the real-life scenario
Anton Antonov @guifa This is sort of a related discussion: linux.slashdot.org/story/22/02/23/...ux-in-2022
[Coke] one of the unacceptable behaviors, btw, is "Continuing or repeatedly starting a conversation in an inappropriate venue (for example, debating the merits of a Code of Conduct violation in the general #raku IRC channel rather than in the appropriate GitHub issue or repeated off-topic conversations in #raku-dev)." 16:17
So please, if you have an issue with the substance of the COC - please free free to open a ticket. 16:18
lizmat discord-raku-bot: help 16:19
Nemokosch It's more than ironic to add something like this to the Code of Conduct 16:23
[Coke] Again, please open a ticket. 16:25
Nemokosch I think we are having an appropriate conversation but okay, will do that
[Coke] I do not. 16:26
Thanks for wrapping it up.
Nemokosch anyways, COC aside, it's important that people are sometimes confronted with their beliefs so that they don't start forming bubbles 16:28
I hope we can agree on that at least 16:29
japhb Nemokosch, it's not your job to confront people, and especially not on this channel. STOP. 16:30
[Coke] I suggest searching for the paradox of tolerance. 16:31
Nemokosch I know that and it's often deliberately misunderstood 16:33
japhb, this message was kind of aggressive, please hold your horses if I do the same.
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[Coke] nemo, please stop. Open a ticket and drop it. if that's too much to ask, then perhaps this community isn't a good fit for you. 16:34
japhb Nemokosch: I'm trying to be clear. This whole discussion is unwelcome. Stop.
[Coke] japhb++
Nemokosch No need to look for bad faith in everything 16:35
Anton Antonov I find the discussion informative... but I joined 10 min ago.
Nemokosch I would be more than happy if you just stopped if you cannot make non-aggressive remarks; no need to silence me any further.
japhb Nemokosch: You do not need to get the last word in. You do not win an argument by continuing to talk. Leaders of the community have asked you to stop. Just. Stop. Talking. (DON NOT REPLY.) 16:37
Nemokosch But you surely do win it by keeping this aggressive tone... 16:39
This is childish. Just let me file the issue without having to come back to further and further banters. 16:40
Geth Raku-Steering-Council/main: a84fc6d599 | (Perry Fraser)++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | papers/code_of_conduct.md
CoC: Existing, not exiting
Raku-Steering-Council/main: a26fe432f6 | niner++ (committed using GitHub Web editor) | papers/code_of_conduct.md
Merge pull request #47 from perryprog/patch-1

CoC: Existing, not exiting
nine Well, alt least we did get a patch out of this discussion :) 16:45
lizmat :-) 16:47
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m_athias Are there, apart from the CoC, any guidelines on offtopic discussions? If #raku keeps on growing maybe a #raku-casual channel might be appropriate. Various communities established -casual channels/subreddits/etc where discussion that fits the environment but is considered offtopic can take place. 16:58
japhb m_athias: We have spawned a few channels over the years for things that only some of the audience was interested in, such as particular frameworks, or Raku folk interested in talking about gaming, or what have you. 17:00
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japhb But: the way that Libera.chat works, the raku org owns any channel that begins with #raku-, so we can't make a channel named #raku-<something> that is counter to the CoC. 17:02
m_athias Just in case: I was not trying to start a channel that is counter to the CoC. While I have strong opinions on some of the issues raised above I, try to, keep politics/religion/etc "at the door". 17:04
japhb m_athias: Oh, wasn't assuming you were wanting to do that. I was just explaining why there's no channel for Raku folk who want to focus on politics and religion. :-) 17:06
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Anton Antonov @japhb So, we can have channels like `#radical-raku`, `#truth-social-raku` , or `#marxist-racoons` ? 17:12
m_athias I was involved in moderating various online communities and, once they reached a certain size, all of them required some "offtopic" outlet. 17:14
guifa signs up for #amazeball-professorial-rakoons and invites… jmerelo. anyone else? ha
.seen jmerelo
tellable6 guifa, I saw jmerelo 2021-05-19T16:34:05Z in #raku: <jmerelo> Or fight who gets to be Classic Coke 17:15
guifa jeez, that's been a while
lizmat jmerelo is more in Twitter these days
MasterDuke japhb: i also get an abort in mutex cleanup code when i run the example in github.com/rakudo/rakudo/issues/4236 with `--full-cleanup`
guifa I actually need to e-mail him (re same thing I /msg'ed you the other day). I've got his $day-job one and he's crazy responsive there 17:16
Anton Antonov More importantly, is my posted message above adhering to Raku community’s CoC or not? (I kind of know one possible answer — I should file ticket…)
MasterDuke i tried to fix it, but never got a working patch 17:17
japhb Anton Antanov: There's the namespacing issue (which I know of because I ran across it before), but there's also the CoC/guidelines for the entirety of Libera.chat. I don't speak for them, but I suspect intentionally trying to work around namespaces be reversing them would be frowned upon. 17:21
Anton Antonov @japhb You are helpful. 17:22
japhb MasterDuke: Hmmm. OK, more evidence for the pile I suppose. 17:23
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Anton Antonov All this CoC adherence discussions make me consider making a Machine Learning (ML) classifier -- in Raku -- that classifies text messages into the labels "adhere" , "does no adhere", and "mu". And endow that ML classifier with a Cro web service, so people can use it from any location to verify, check, and self-censor their potential posts in Raku channels or personal blogs. 17:29
Nemokosch 😂
anyway, there is <#538435064116281365> on discord but most people don't seem to be using discord in this community 17:30
so it cannot really fulfill a purpose
Sent the issue to RSC
and gotta go now
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[Coke] (classic coke) I would prefer the new Coke Zero, so there's no fight there. (except with the user who reserved 'Coke') 17:43
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perryprog I had usurped "perry" on freenode since it was inactive for ages but I was slow on switching to libera and someone stole it back :( 17:48
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guifa [Coke] I had considered making a joke about that but I refrained lol 18:12
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tbrowder if anyone wants a raku/cro problem to solve, tell me how to get the cro router to respond with an existing index.html file and include all the image links. 19:34
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[Coke] if I install "File::Directory::Tree", and then use zef list --installed, I get File::Directory::Tree:auth<labster> 19:41
but if I uninstall it, and then try 'zef install "File::Directory::Tree"', I get "no candidates found matching..."
seems to work with File::Temp:ver<0.0.10>:auth<zef:rbt> though 19:42
er, "and then try" was with File::Directory::Tree:auth<labster>
(trying to pass the working one through a powershell invocation of zef then also results in 'no candidates found', crud. 19:52
ugexe what if you use single quotes instead 19:55
[Coke] fixed powershell issue, but the failure to find the :auth<labster> one seems problematic. 19:57
ugexe ah File::Directory::Tree doesn't have an explicit auth set
it has 'author'
which does get treated as 'auth' in some cases, but thats an old -ism from before 6c
[Coke] ok. so, not worth fixing in zef, open a ticket with the module? 19:58
ugexe yeah
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ugexe i should probably remove those remaining author/authority as auth remnants in zef one of these days tho 19:59
so `zef list --installed` doesn't show you File::Directory::Tree:auth<labster> 20:00
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[Coke] github.com/labster/p6-file-directo.../issues/19 20:10
.seen labster 20:14
tellable6 [Coke], I saw labster 2018-09-17T03:39:31Z in #perl6: <labster> Man, this is fun, I haven't found a segfault in MoarVM in like 5 years!
[Coke] and that was 5 years ago! 20:15
japhb I was about to say, "Meanwhile, 3.5 years later ..."
nine That....makes me think I'm doing something wrong :D
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[Coke] sweet. Have a powershell script that does a hard reinstall on windows (assumes a LOT) but takes the x-step process and reduces it to a single command. (including re-installing the modules with zef) 20:27
only useful for people who are maybe, say, doing a git bisect on windows. 20:28
MasterDuke why do you need to reinstall everything? 20:30
[Coke] because going between versions, I've had the install dir get screwed up, since there is no uninstall, only "install on top" 20:32
so having dealt with that once... never again. it's probably ignorable if you're just installing a release every few months. 20:33
(and would never happen with rakubrew)
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MasterDuke i can see that for rakudu, but i thought modules haven't needed to be reinstalled for a long time 20:33
[Coke] ... to be fair, I have been around for a bit. 20:34
MasterDuke but i know windows support in general isn't quite as good. might be nice to file an issue if you can repro something not behaving correctly
[Coke] ... I'm usually trying to fix *other* things, so don't want to accidentally shave a yak while doing so, that's all 20:35
gist.github.com/coke/5c1ed95ab8232...ac6ccbb706 # I don't powershell usually 20:36
MasterDuke speaking of windows, is anyone here familiar with jom? i was trying to use it instead of nmake on windows, but it won't build a clean checkout of moarvm, complaining about not being able to find one of the 3rdparty dependency .objs 20:41
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ugexe i just googled it so consider me an expert 20:42
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MasterDuke you're only half a day behind me 20:43
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